/ Ice tools

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kingjam - on 15 Nov 2013
Ok so im thinking about getting some new ice tools. One question I had is about adze and hammers. Alot of modern tools these have either disappeared or are so small I question what you can do with them.

How do people place pitons without a hammer and how do people clear ice out for placing screw without a axe .

Thanks for your help
davidbeynon - on 15 Nov 2013
In reply to kingjam:

I just got a pair of Quarks, which have a reasonable adze and hammer. Not quite as substantial as my old vertiges, but worlds away from the tiny things you get on some tools.
CurlyStevo - on 15 Nov 2013
In reply to kingjam:
Judging by Cogne last year it look like most people were just carry long screws and weren't clearing the ice back much at all!

I'd definately want a hammer for Scottish Winter and I must say I quite like a having an Adze but I wouldn't consider that essential.
stevieweesaxs107 - on 15 Nov 2013
In reply to kingjam:
I've a New Pair of Quarks with tags
If interested pretty light with a good
Compact hammer.
smuffy on 15 Nov 2013
In reply to kingjam: I managed to get a brand new set of Nomics at a knock down price and was really concerned so purchased the adze and hammer as additions. They are the same size as the adze and hammer on the Quarks. Hopefully we'll get some decent weather so I can try them out very soon!
dutybooty - on 15 Nov 2013
In reply to kingjam: Vipers. Huge hammer, pretty big adze.
davidbeynon - on 15 Nov 2013
In reply to dutybooty:

Really? The ones I was looking at over the weekend had the micro hammer and adze as standard, with larger ones as optional extras. They also came with B rated picks.

A pity, as I thought they had a really nice feel.
mikebarter387 - on 15 Nov 2013
In reply to kingjam: Lifted this from here
http://www.mountainguide.com/blog/
Carbon Fiber Black Diamond Cobra: These are beautifully crafted tools. The combination of carbon fiber and metal looks like something that the Apple design team dreamed up while under the watchful eye of Steve Jobs. The elegant curve is for more then just show it gives plenty of clearance allowing to place the well back into pockets and behind or between icicles. Locations that are more receptive to the violence of an invasive ice pick. On the head you have the option to place an adze or a hammer. If your using these as a alpine tool then I suggest getting a adze and hammer. Who uses a adze you may be wondering. Well alpine climbers. In the pure water and dry tooling arenas a adze has no real value. Shovel your way through a cornice and need that purchasing power because your pick just keeps ripping through the the hard pack snow. Flip your tool upside down and dig in with the wide blade of the adze. This is an extremely common situation in the technical mountaineering world. These tool have great balance and weight. They are fairly light weighing in at 617gm with the adze. This is light enough that you would consider it for high altitude technical mountaineering. The spike at the end is effectual enough that walking with the head in hand there is little worry of the spike slipping out from under you in anything but the most bullet proof of ice conditions. There are screws on the backside in case you want to set up a pair of Android leashes. Leashes still have a place out there in the real world.

If your guessing that I like these tools you’d be guessing right.




Petzl Quark
Petzl Quark: This is another favourite tool of the technical alpinist is this Petzl Quark. It doesn’t have the brilliant design finish of the Cobra but is rugged and and has excellent balance. I am surprised at how many ice climbers are hanging onto these things for dear life. Its like they are holding onto a cherished memory and if they let go that memory will fade. This tool is pretty much the same tool as the BD Cobra just without the carbon fiber.

The thing is that 5 or 6 companies build a tool of this sort and really it is just a matter of personal preference. My guess is that there may be a fair number of this generation of tool for sale for the next few years at least.

kingjam - on 15 Nov 2013
In reply to kingjam:

Thanks for that and defo helps in view of my next tools .

But still raises the point re ice screws and pitons . I Suppose the answer is on very steep ice or mixed routes you just dont place ice screws or pitons in the same way as maybe you do on other less steep routes >
CurlyStevo - on 15 Nov 2013
In reply to kingjam:
You can definitely flatten ice and clear it back with your pick.

I think most uk climbers on mixed routes of all grades carry pegs, but it would be nie on impossible to place a peg climbing leashless unless you could get your weight balanced and over your feet so on steep flat rock it wouldn't really be an option.
Michael Gordon - on 15 Nov 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:
> (In reply to kingjam)
>
> I think most uk climbers on mixed routes of all grades carry pegs, but it would be nie on impossible to place a peg climbing leashless unless you could get your weight balanced and over your feet so on steep flat rock it wouldn't really be an option.

There's certainly easier things to place (provided they'll go in), but why would pegs be easier to place climbing with leashes?
StuDoig - on 15 Nov 2013
In reply to davidbeynon:
Needle sports used to do a "Scottish Mixed" viper set which had the standard rather than micro hammer and adze fitted, and T rated pics - have a look there if you're still looking.

Cheers,

Stu
CurlyStevo - on 15 Nov 2013
In reply to Michael Gordon:
because depending on the leashe and axe placement you may be able to slip it up to the elbow to hold your body on to the wall whilst holding the peg. This is one way snargs used to be placed on lead on steep ice.
davidbeynon - on 15 Nov 2013
In reply to StuDoig:

If I was still looking I certainly would, but I decided to go with a pair of quarks.
Michael Gordon - on 15 Nov 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I think it's pretty rare that the peg placement will be just in the right place in relation to the hook you're using. Totally different on ice where you can get a tool in just about anywhere.
Ginger McGrath - on 15 Nov 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo: Sounds like a recipe for pulling out your axe placement! I could see how that would work on secure placement in water ice, but if your placing a peg on mixed ground it would need to be an absoloutely skiner hook for that to work saftely. Also if you select the correct sized peg you should be able to hand place it just deep enough for it to stay in place while you give it the first few hits
Andrew Mallinson - on 15 Nov 2013
In reply to StuDoig:

Yep Stu, a really good set up for Kinder Downfall.......

ANdy
In reply to Ginger McGrath:
> (In reply to CurlyStevo) Sounds like a recipe for pulling out your axe placement! I could see how that would work on secure placement in water ice, but if your placing a peg on mixed ground it would need to be an absoloutely skiner hook for that to work saftely.

Or just a good turf placement.

But don't worry, the hang-from-the-crook-of-your-elbow thing always looked great in the line drawings in the 'how to go climbing' books of my youth but when you actually tried it with the crappy leashes that I got for my first tools it was next to impossible to actually do!
george mc - on 15 Nov 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:
> (In reply to Michael Gordon)
> because depending on the leashe and axe placement you may be able to slip it up to the elbow to hold your body on to the wall whilst holding the peg. This is one way snargs used to be placed on lead on steep ice.

Hhmm - looks good in books, in reality...

Pegs should really be first placed 2/3 to 3/4 way in then hit home with a ringing tone. Most folks seem just to cold weld the things into a crack. You might as well say placing nuts is impossible with leashless tools? You can place pegs one handed - clear placement, place peg, hit home - all with one hand. Simples.
Hannes on 15 Nov 2013
In reply to kingjam: My experience is that it easier hammering pegs in with a nomic than a quark or even a MT vertige. The size of the hammer isn't an issue and the handle is easier to hold onto. A slightly bigger adze wouldn't go amiss but it works pretty well
CurlyStevo - on 16 Nov 2013
In reply to george mc: fair enough george I take your point some pegs do go in quite easily. I find most peg placemets are not as straight forward. its not uncommon for the peg to not go in as deeply as Id hoped and need extraction. Another problem is the peg twisting as it goes in or be problematic to start angles especially. Id not want to be in extremis placing a peg one handed. The problem is its quite hard to visually see how easy to place and good a peg is before youve tried it. nut or ice screws are different.
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george mc - on 16 Nov 2013
In reply to CurlyStevo:
> (In reply to george mc) fair enough george I take your point some pegs do go in quite easily. I find most peg placemets are not as straight forward. its not uncommon for the peg to not go in as deeply as Id hoped and need extraction. Another problem is the peg twisting as it goes in or be problematic to start angles especially.

Then it's a crap placement i.e. the crack is poor or you are trying to insert the wrong peg into the wrong hole (so to speak)and I'd decide whether to fanny about trying to place it or press on until I get a better placement.

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