/ UKC 'like being savaged by a dead sheep'
Someone had to link it here.
He's probably right on his key points if a little churlish in the way he expresses them. I don't think it has anything to do with anonymity though, as for example people are generally more anonymouse on UKB (where the posting was generally more reasonable on this subject).
I was going to comment on the blog piece but I don't think he merits the attention. Plus he writes like a cross between David Icke and Richard Littlejohn.
I might be a little less sceptical of Redheads 'genius' if it wasn't always jonno banging on about it.
"Little wonder that most serious climbers and writers avoid it like the plague these days."
Most serious writers avoid cliches like the plague.
+1 If I want serious I can look out of the window, or do some real work. This blog (like many others) seemed to me just a bit parochial and well and truly up it's own arse.
One possibility when you "don't conform to the accepted orthodoxy of the flock" is that you are a misunderstood genius, a modern day Galileo bravely facing persecution and public incredulity in your relentless pursuit of the truth.
The other, is that you're a crank. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crank_(person)
Judge for yourself which is the more likely scenario here.
Re John Appleby's snipe at anonymous posters: am I right in thinking that he used to post on here as Jonno?
Aside from this, who cares what he says, who cares what anyone on ukc or indeed ukb says? The internet is a noisy place. Nothing to see here, nothing new anyway.
But with worse grammar.
I thought exactly the same when I read his blog and i had no idea who he was then (or now really).
A lot of the point if public forums is that anyone can post; it's not supposed to be a literary corner of the interweb. Blogs are different and that's obvious, so criticising UKC for that is pretty ridiculous.
Wov, I have never before been referred to as a pious, po-faced prig! Do I get a medal?
I said it on the original thread and I'll happily say it again: that Redhead article was pure gibberish, unworthy of publication in a paid-for magazine.
There was a range of opinions expressed on the subject on the original thread. Some, like mine, were pretty critical. A matter of taste perhaps. I can see why some people thought that it was an interesting piece with a certain depth of meaning.
Now John is moaning about the online criticism. It's kind of funny.
As for anonymity, I'd be happy to say the same thing in person: it was not a good article. But that's just my own point of view and others will disagree. I don't suppose there is, or needs to be, a right or wrong answer here.
Anyway, I'm off to munch on that tuft of grass over there.
I would have said - poorer grammar ,
but I post on UKC , what would I know about writing.
So hes upset that a large online climbing community is discussing this stuff?
Dont post opinionated in-crowd rants in the public sphere if you dont want attention. Keep it amongst your elite chums if the need for agreement is so big a deal.
Anonymous posters? Not that herring again.
I was never really that mad about Douglas Hurd, do climbers like him or somethin, dont gerrit....
This might be off topic, but I would find being savaged by a dead sheep really quite freaky. Dead things are supposed to stay where they are put, and having them going around savaging anyone is an indicator that things have gone very badly wrong.
Now if you will excuse me I'm going to hole up in the local shopping mall with a rifle and a bag of hammers.
I think he meant zombie sheep. Zombified from too much internet trolling perhaps...
and one who doesn't seem to have an understanding of metaphor or spelling, it would seem.
phase? (surely 'faze')
and herds or flocks might be found in quarries, but tend not to have quarries. on account of their desired food being pretty immobile. generally definitions of 'quarry' don't include grass.
normally i wouldn't pull someone up on their use of language; but when the person seems to be setting themselves up as some form of persecuted guardian of the left field and creative, deploying literary references, purple prose (and cliches) freely to mark their superiority from the drone-like masses who are too limited to recognise true talent when they read it, then they should at least get someone else to read their output before posting it to avoid making basic errors and looking a bit silly.
and, they missed a chance to use the word 'sheeple'.
there's also the irony of complaining about people exercising their right to free speech in a piece defending, er, the right to free speech.
overall it reminds me of the goldie lookin chain 'riposte' to the 'newport state of mind' parody (its on youtube for those that are interested). not nearly as clever or funny as the person writing it thinks it is, and unable to entirely hide the anger they want to pretend to us they aren't feeling.
no matter, mr appleby can always turn to the people with the 'right' opinion to find some support, ie the ones that agree with what he already believes. the world is so much more comfortable that way,
That truly is brilliant! I always thought that Dolly the Sheep was a step too far...
Better take some machine guns to that supermarket.
> there's also the irony of complaining about people exercising their right to free speech in a piece defending, er, the right to free speech.
That's the nub of it.. so insult and belittle if people don't agree.. if they agree with the mainstream its passive conformist.. sheep.. agree with their view.. free thinker..
JR wrote contraversial articles.. be their nature they divide people and make people think.. great in many ways but you can't then bitch on when people don't like it.
I'd say he is free to critique what he likes. I think the point that the posters on UKB dealt with it more maturely is fair, and that "climbers' climbers" on UKC wouldn't be the ones behaving immaturely. UKC is great for being a site with a range of climbers matching the real world but I think it comes with a few too many people with too little to say who like the sound of their own voice a little too much.
Offwidth: currently at Number 19 in the Top 40 Posters.
^ That's a winky face.
That's just nonsense..
I'm not going to name people but there are many climbers on here who occasionally post immature comments..
It's a forum.. free to use.. you have to filter the dross..
I think you and Jonno have indulged in some pretty selective interpretation to reach that conclusion. The first poster on the UKB thread uses an emoticon simulating masturbation to make his point. I know it's a laff, and there's some very informed climbers on UKB, but let's not pretend it's a hotbed of scholarly debate.
The crap is easy to ignore, what's rattled Jonno is that on the ukc thread there was some mature, articulate and stinging criticisms of Redheads work.
Same goes for UKB, but UKC is the busier forum so tends to get the ire of those who don't like having their ideas challenged.
It's usually the magazines that snipe at us - even that nice Steve McClure - 'makes us (as in British climbers) look like w*nkers' I seem to recall. Well, I suppose they feel a bit threatened by free online resources.
well, i am a bit hurt actually.
I like John redHead and repeatedly defended his article.
This jonno character even Emailed me to thank me for my Support and ask a favour of me.
Next thing, were all sheep. Seems a bit disingenuous, and Stereotyping to me?
I've met a lot of people with public personas like JR. Ironically the fantastically brash and strong and confident voice often hides a tower of cards of insecurity. when that tower is rocked the only emotionally safe thing for them to do is assert it's strength even more strongly.
In less generous moods I'd have simply thought him an objectionable man with only a fraction of the cleverness and creativity he affords himself.
The problem open to JR, (as it is for any artist) is that he wants to be recognised, understood and appreciated. Does he present his own original ideas however unpopular, or reach for a wider audience through compromise? It would be a painful dilemma if he was not so entrenched in self-rightness. But the balance in that proposed Climber article is simply beyond the pale; a little spice adds interest, too much makes the eyes water.
As to ironic concern over UKC response? He's just written a book and the market-base isn't very broad on the planet of the footless crow. Our planet is a lot more populace but the sales-brief hasn't gone well. He doesn't want to hear our comments - with enough cotton wool in his ears the most earnest critique will come across as bleating. I can appreciate that JR has demonstrated the greatest originality in his climbing history, but if he wishes to communicate his views to the masses he must distinguish between original writ and original wit. The one sheepish trait UKCers may be proud of is being well-grounded; we *are* a representative subset of hoped for readership and JR must reckon with the force which keeps our feet on the ground.
Sites have their different cultures, so for instance the mastubation symbol isn't so rude over there as it would be here and within those cultures and on average I think the thread was much better there than here. The numbers of posters is of the same order, so size isn't so relevant.
I don't think Redhead is a genius in his writing (like, say, he was in his climbing) and I certainly don't always agree with him; I do think he provides a useful and very distinctive alternative viewpoint. I'm also far from being a clone of jonno. Climbing when I started was pretty colourful with its characters and the bleaching that has seemingly come with increased participation and wider commercialisation seems a shame at times to me.
" The consensus to the article from what I would describe as ‘Climbing’s Creative Element’ was overwhelmingly positive. By contrast, the majority of UKC sheep hated it. "
I'm instantly turned off a piece of writing when the author uses this as a means of getting people onside with their argument. "If you agree with me you are cool, if you don't then you are a sheep."
It's lazy and removes the possibility for discussion, as anyone who disagrees with them is a sheep, not worthy of conversing with, and proof of their original statement, rather than a dissenting voice showing the weaknesses of it.
Surely a "creative" writer would have the ability to make his/her point powerfully enough that they were able to leave the ultimate decision up to the reader, safe in the knowledge that they had written their piece well enough, and their point was true enough, that the only logical conclusion is to agree with it. The most staunchly held views and ideals are often those to which you arrive yourself.
My job would be so much easier if all I needed to do to convince a Judge was to put my opening arguments to them and finish with "and if you don't agree with me, you are obviously sheep without any unique thought......and you're a massive dick" (okay so maybe I added that bit at the end about being a dick, but the point still stands)
I had no massive feelings one way or the other towards John Redhead's piece, other than to say that the style wasn't my cup of tea, but why should it be, he didn't write it to please me, he wrote it (seemingly) to prompt debate, and to raise an issue which he thought was important, which makes it all the more ludicrous that a supporter of his uses the phrase above which actively precludes all debate about the subject.
I'll say one thing for Redhead's article, it's certainly prompted a massive debate, as do most things that he does (for better or worse), and surely a healthy and informed debate makes us all the more equipped to form our own opinions....even if the opinions we reach do make us 'the majority of UKC sheep'
p.s, if you don't agree with what I wrote above it's obviously because you lack the necessary intelligence to fully understand the point I was making, and you are just following the crowd and have no unique thought.
oh, and you're a massive dick.
Gushing and and churlish as the piece is, it doesnt preclude debate. Being savaged by a dead sheep implies ridiculous empty threat rather than herd behaviour. UKC may be representative of the climbing population but call me elitist but I'm not interested in tribal defensiveness nor ill thought through musings. UKC can have great debate but that thread wasnt a high point for me.
Now where do I see that attitude displayed 100 times a day......let me think.....
Just so I'm sure......you do get that my tongue was firmly in the side of my mouth when I wrote that don't you.....
Of course so was mine...
Geoffrey Howe, wasn't it? Whose bite, it eventually turned out, was fatal!
It just reminds me of someone who claims to "Say exactly what's on their mind and say exactly what they think"
Which is fine, except they're the ones who are generally are least prepared for the come back.
as a great man once said, they don't like it up 'em.
Elsewhere on the site
At a bar in Llanberis an old man chimed in And I thought he was out of his head Being a young man I just laughed it off When... Read more
F ounded in 1993, Mountain Hardwear are a pretty young mountaineering clothing and equipment manufacturer but are also one of... Read more
Tonight's Friday Night Video features the Norwegian town of Rjukan, once believed to be the home of the world's tallest... Read more
Rock shoes stink – let’s face it. Boot Bananas are the perfect way to fight the funk and keep them fresh. They help... Read more
Perhaps the perfect Xmas gift for the climber in your life... Wild Country's Crack School has two of the worlds best crack... Read more