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Interesting post about easier new routes and routes that have been done but not claimed.
http://www.scottishwinter.com/?p=4042
"So the conundrum – should we record good and accessible lines in popular areas that are known to have unlisted ascents (such as the Northern Corries), or avoid any possible ambiguity by purely focusing on new routes (typically very hard) that are more certain to be breaking new ground?"
With the last sentence in mind how many winter climbers are going out themselves in search of new lines to be done and then reporting them?
Is it a case for most weekend warriors of just leave the new routeing to the big boys pioneering routes of VIII+
http://www.scottishwinter.com/?p=4042
"So the conundrum – should we record good and accessible lines in popular areas that are known to have unlisted ascents (such as the Northern Corries), or avoid any possible ambiguity by purely focusing on new routes (typically very hard) that are more certain to be breaking new ground?"
With the last sentence in mind how many winter climbers are going out themselves in search of new lines to be done and then reporting them?
Is it a case for most weekend warriors of just leave the new routeing to the big boys pioneering routes of VIII+
In reply to Cameron94:
Me and another friend on here had a few first winter ascents of mountains in Germany/Austria earlier this year. Never reported them to anybody. Just left a note in the summit book.
The routes are all easy. Nobody really cares, but it was nice for us.
Me and another friend on here had a few first winter ascents of mountains in Germany/Austria earlier this year. Never reported them to anybody. Just left a note in the summit book.
The routes are all easy. Nobody really cares, but it was nice for us.
In reply to Cameron94:
Also, I've been on that site before. Its a brilliant site. I wish they'd put topos up as some of the routes look really nice.
Also, I've been on that site before. Its a brilliant site. I wish they'd put topos up as some of the routes look really nice.
In reply to Cameron94:
I've done a number of (probable) minor first ascents in the low grades, and usually I don't bother recording them "officially", at most sticking them up on UKC for the sake of logbook completeness. However, a couple of my new routes have been notable enough for me to contact the SMC. One was an arete of high quality on Aonach Dubh, the other a winter buttress.
In my opinion this is entirely down to the discretion of the climber, but I don't agree with recording absolutely everything. It's nice for the hills to retain some mystery, isn't it?
I've done a number of (probable) minor first ascents in the low grades, and usually I don't bother recording them "officially", at most sticking them up on UKC for the sake of logbook completeness. However, a couple of my new routes have been notable enough for me to contact the SMC. One was an arete of high quality on Aonach Dubh, the other a winter buttress.
In my opinion this is entirely down to the discretion of the climber, but I don't agree with recording absolutely everything. It's nice for the hills to retain some mystery, isn't it?
In reply to Only a hill:
So long as the climber doesn't then claim the route when someone else climbs and logs it afterwards.
> In my opinion this is entirely down to the discretion of the climber,
So long as the climber doesn't then claim the route when someone else climbs and logs it afterwards.
In reply to Cameron94:
If it's an independent line then record it, but be prepared to be mocked by those who've been trundling up (or down) it for decades. Where it does get silly is where people are claiming FAs of entirely trivial lines which have obviously been done before.
If it's an independent line then record it, but be prepared to be mocked by those who've been trundling up (or down) it for decades. Where it does get silly is where people are claiming FAs of entirely trivial lines which have obviously been done before.
In reply to Cameron94:
I was similar to Only a Hill until Andy N caught me one day and asked why I hadn't been recording lines. He also explained that the lack of recording just leads to more ambiguity.
"It's been done before" doesn't give any information, recommendation or clue as to its existence for others. Of course there are many climbers who have no interest in whether anyone has done the line before or will do so in the future. That is their right but Andy's philosophy appealed to me.
In Scotland sifting through reported routes is done for the SMC very well by Andy and he asks around if he is unsure. Hopefully the end result is that the line is recorded as either good or bad for future climbers. The motivation for recording is important; it should be for the greater good rather than ego purposes which may be why eponymous names are no longer recognised.
As with your route on Sgurr a' Bhasteir last year it is better to record the line and not expect credit (because we knew someone had done it before) than for it to remain devoid of details. Especially in winter; your ascent was stepped and thin where it was all banked out for previous ascents. This huge variation is the beauty of winter so noting conditions in the description is also useful. The guidebook writer will edit down if you're worried about waffling!
I was similar to Only a Hill until Andy N caught me one day and asked why I hadn't been recording lines. He also explained that the lack of recording just leads to more ambiguity.
"It's been done before" doesn't give any information, recommendation or clue as to its existence for others. Of course there are many climbers who have no interest in whether anyone has done the line before or will do so in the future. That is their right but Andy's philosophy appealed to me.
In Scotland sifting through reported routes is done for the SMC very well by Andy and he asks around if he is unsure. Hopefully the end result is that the line is recorded as either good or bad for future climbers. The motivation for recording is important; it should be for the greater good rather than ego purposes which may be why eponymous names are no longer recognised.
As with your route on Sgurr a' Bhasteir last year it is better to record the line and not expect credit (because we knew someone had done it before) than for it to remain devoid of details. Especially in winter; your ascent was stepped and thin where it was all banked out for previous ascents. This huge variation is the beauty of winter so noting conditions in the description is also useful. The guidebook writer will edit down if you're worried about waffling!
In reply to Cameron94:
I think it's quite simple really. If the route is judged to be worthwhile (a bit of honesty obviously required here) then it is worth recording, albeit not as the FA. No shame in pushing for something to be recorded if it's good. Thankfully there are folk like Andy N with a good knowledge of what is likely to have been done before, which will go some way to stopping folk complaining that they did the line decades ago.
I think it's quite simple really. If the route is judged to be worthwhile (a bit of honesty obviously required here) then it is worth recording, albeit not as the FA. No shame in pushing for something to be recorded if it's good. Thankfully there are folk like Andy N with a good knowledge of what is likely to have been done before, which will go some way to stopping folk complaining that they did the line decades ago.
In reply to Cameron94:
In the case of the Northern Corries, I think it is very useful for lines to be recorded in the lower grades, as it helps spread the traffic in a very crowded area. Few people climbing in the lower grades seem to be prepared to do things which aren't in the guidebook. There are 2 or 3 Grade I/II lines I can think of in Coire an-t Sneachda which are almost never climbed even when there are massive queues in Jacob's Ladder and Alladins Couloir.
In the case of the Northern Corries, I think it is very useful for lines to be recorded in the lower grades, as it helps spread the traffic in a very crowded area. Few people climbing in the lower grades seem to be prepared to do things which aren't in the guidebook. There are 2 or 3 Grade I/II lines I can think of in Coire an-t Sneachda which are almost never climbed even when there are massive queues in Jacob's Ladder and Alladins Couloir.
In reply to Cameron94:
Oh look, the usual suspect. All too familiar.
Similarly, folk in the north-west have been all over the place like a swarm for decades and probably done thousands of routes while maintaining the now pretty ancient idea of a moratorium on route recording. There are still people, brought up on a diet of terrodactyls, chouinards, oatcakes and moratorium, out there knocking seven bells out of countless nameless lines and laughing at our friend in the east. Allegedly.
Apparently, dragging clients up easy gullies in the NW that have been climbed by both locals and icons of a former era for decades is OK though, and these can be recorded. Allegedly.
My favourite story about new routing though was told by the late Alan Mullin, in his early days, when he was searching, fruitlessly, for a rational explanation of the ethics of winter climbing. He described a 'tramp' whom he had observed top-roping a buttress in Coire an Lochain. I then asked him if the tramp had red hair. Alan said that he did. Laughed my socks off (not allegedly).
Something has to CHANGE.
Oh look, the usual suspect. All too familiar.
Similarly, folk in the north-west have been all over the place like a swarm for decades and probably done thousands of routes while maintaining the now pretty ancient idea of a moratorium on route recording. There are still people, brought up on a diet of terrodactyls, chouinards, oatcakes and moratorium, out there knocking seven bells out of countless nameless lines and laughing at our friend in the east. Allegedly.
Apparently, dragging clients up easy gullies in the NW that have been climbed by both locals and icons of a former era for decades is OK though, and these can be recorded. Allegedly.
My favourite story about new routing though was told by the late Alan Mullin, in his early days, when he was searching, fruitlessly, for a rational explanation of the ethics of winter climbing. He described a 'tramp' whom he had observed top-roping a buttress in Coire an Lochain. I then asked him if the tramp had red hair. Alan said that he did. Laughed my socks off (not allegedly).
Something has to CHANGE.
In reply to jonnie3430:
Surely life's too short for that kind of nonsense?
Would anyone seriously lose any sleep if someone else 'claimed' 'their' first ascent? You've still climbed the route, after all, and presumably enjoyed it. It seems odd to me that enjoyment of climbing should be based on some dubious concept of ownership.
> So long as the climber doesn't then claim the route when someone else climbs and logs it afterwards.
Surely life's too short for that kind of nonsense?
Would anyone seriously lose any sleep if someone else 'claimed' 'their' first ascent? You've still climbed the route, after all, and presumably enjoyed it. It seems odd to me that enjoyment of climbing should be based on some dubious concept of ownership.
In reply to Simon Yearsley:
Jim's been banging on about this for years on here. I can sympathise with some of what he says but don't quite get the hostility towards Andy, it's only climbing Jim ffs.
As I see it, routes recorded or not, it's made very little difference to the north west save a few of the most popular corries.
Jim's been banging on about this for years on here. I can sympathise with some of what he says but don't quite get the hostility towards Andy, it's only climbing Jim ffs.
As I see it, routes recorded or not, it's made very little difference to the north west save a few of the most popular corries.
In reply to Only a hill:
You would think so, but I've had it happen to me! That was only a re-direction of an existing route that was falling into the sea, but someone couldn't let it lie!
> Surely life's too short for that kind of nonsense?
You would think so, but I've had it happen to me! That was only a re-direction of an existing route that was falling into the sea, but someone couldn't let it lie!
In reply to Only a hill:
I'm sure guidebook editors would tell you many stories of people trying to back date claims when others have tried to log a route.
I like the term "worthwhile addition to the crag," and think that grade III's in Norries are all going to fit that category as they reduce crowding on mess of pottage etc...
> Surely life's too short for that kind of nonsense?
I'm sure guidebook editors would tell you many stories of people trying to back date claims when others have tried to log a route.
I like the term "worthwhile addition to the crag," and think that grade III's in Norries are all going to fit that category as they reduce crowding on mess of pottage etc...
In reply to Cameron94:
I've climbed unrecorded lines in "popular" areas where other routes at similar grades are recorded, so it seemed consistent with the custom of the area to let Andy know; he then asked around, and the routes got written up as first ascents.
On the other hand, a lot of the pleasure of winter climbing is exploration, so I can see a very good argument for leaving remote areas unrecorded. Problem is, when someone puts up a hard and serious new route in a remote area, that (rightly) gets recorded: it attracts publicity, others climb the "unclimbed"/unrecorded lines, they get written up and the area becomes that bit less remote.
A good guidebook editor will, I imagine, know what's been done but not previously been recorded, and so be able to minimise the number of false first ascent claims.
I've climbed unrecorded lines in "popular" areas where other routes at similar grades are recorded, so it seemed consistent with the custom of the area to let Andy know; he then asked around, and the routes got written up as first ascents.
On the other hand, a lot of the pleasure of winter climbing is exploration, so I can see a very good argument for leaving remote areas unrecorded. Problem is, when someone puts up a hard and serious new route in a remote area, that (rightly) gets recorded: it attracts publicity, others climb the "unclimbed"/unrecorded lines, they get written up and the area becomes that bit less remote.
A good guidebook editor will, I imagine, know what's been done but not previously been recorded, and so be able to minimise the number of false first ascent claims.
In reply to Cameron94:
Most of the guys putting up new VIIIs and above are weekend warriors (i.e. full time job, family etc) too! They're just a bit more determined than the rest of us.
Anyway, it's surely worth a note in the guidebook, even just to say "lines in this area have been done at about III" or whatever, but I wouldn't expect to be credited with a FA of a line that had probably been climbed before.
And
> Is it a case for most weekend warriors of just leave the new routeing to the big boys pioneering routes of VIII+
Most of the guys putting up new VIIIs and above are weekend warriors (i.e. full time job, family etc) too! They're just a bit more determined than the rest of us.
Anyway, it's surely worth a note in the guidebook, even just to say "lines in this area have been done at about III" or whatever, but I wouldn't expect to be credited with a FA of a line that had probably been climbed before.
And
In reply to Cameron94:
Plenty of low grade recorded routes mean that newcomers, soloist and the less ambitious have plenty to choose from and make safe choices. There isn't really a downside, particularly in the most popular spots.
As has been mentioned above, Coire an t-Sneachda has some easy routes that haven't appeared in print and that sort of tidying up exercise would probably be helpful in an area that is so popular and has so much pressure on routes in the lower grades.
To do that, we don't need the ego-boosting and possessiveness of the first ascent claim. We just need a realistic record that acknowledges the history.
Plenty of low grade recorded routes mean that newcomers, soloist and the less ambitious have plenty to choose from and make safe choices. There isn't really a downside, particularly in the most popular spots.
As has been mentioned above, Coire an t-Sneachda has some easy routes that haven't appeared in print and that sort of tidying up exercise would probably be helpful in an area that is so popular and has so much pressure on routes in the lower grades.
To do that, we don't need the ego-boosting and possessiveness of the first ascent claim. We just need a realistic record that acknowledges the history.
In reply to Solaris:
Less remote or just less vague? Having lines in a guidebook doesn't make an area any less remote. The cliff remains the same.
> others climb the "unclimbed"/unrecorded lines, they get written up and the area becomes that bit less remote.
>
>
Less remote or just less vague? Having lines in a guidebook doesn't make an area any less remote. The cliff remains the same.
In reply to Jim Fraser:
Don't think much ego-boosting is involved in writing up a description for something not previously recorded?
> To do that, we don't need the ego-boosting and possessiveness of the first ascent claim. We just need a realistic record that acknowledges the history.
Don't think much ego-boosting is involved in writing up a description for something not previously recorded?
In reply to Jim Fraser:
Jim I assume the ref to "... the ego-boosting and possessiveness of the first ascent claim." isn't directed at me?
> (In reply to Cameron94)
>
> To do that, we don't need the ego-boosting and possessiveness of the first ascent claim. We just need a realistic record that acknowledges the history.
>
> To do that, we don't need the ego-boosting and possessiveness of the first ascent claim. We just need a realistic record that acknowledges the history.
Jim I assume the ref to "... the ego-boosting and possessiveness of the first ascent claim." isn't directed at me?
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Err, Yes! I didn't express myself well but my point was that once an area has routes recorded then it gets into guidebooks, becomes more likely to be frequented by those with less of a taste for exploration, and in that sense psychologically less remote.
But, therefore, 'No', too. A cliff that has lines recored on it *feels* different to climb from one that hasn't. In the latter case, the route can have been climbed a thousand times but the question that makes exploration exciting is always in the back of one's mind: "How hard is this going to get; can I, of modest ability, get up it?"
> The cliff remains the same.
Err, Yes! I didn't express myself well but my point was that once an area has routes recorded then it gets into guidebooks, becomes more likely to be frequented by those with less of a taste for exploration, and in that sense psychologically less remote.
But, therefore, 'No', too. A cliff that has lines recored on it *feels* different to climb from one that hasn't. In the latter case, the route can have been climbed a thousand times but the question that makes exploration exciting is always in the back of one's mind: "How hard is this going to get; can I, of modest ability, get up it?"
In reply to Simon Yearsley:
Not directed at any person. It simply describes the general situation as it currently exists.
> Jim I assume the ref to "... the ego-boosting and possessiveness of the first ascent claim." isn't directed at me?
Not directed at any person. It simply describes the general situation as it currently exists.
In reply to Cameron94:
The Reformation approacheth, all guidebooks burned, those found in possession...................
The Reformation approacheth, all guidebooks burned, those found in possession...................
In reply to Jim Fraser: > Not directed at any person. It simply describes the general situation as it currently exists.
Sorry Jim I think you are wrong but I do understand where you're coming from.
When the Paul Williams Pass guide came out in the 80's I formed the opinion he must have been stroking a huge ego and I was pretty vocal about it.
My only defense is youth but, despite being "put right" by so many of his friends, ego was still the only reason I could think anyone would be so prolific. Now I understand where he was coming from and, if it wasn't slate and bolts, I could almost be jealous. To hear you slagging Andy makes me cringe nearly as much as I do when I think what a tit I must have sounded to the N Wales crew in those days.
There are climbers driven by ego, for whom the kudos is a driving force but I tend to find these are the more the "flash in the pan" than either the top-end climbers or habitual explorers. Crag X or line X takes over their lives and everyone hears about it but its often the highlight of their climbing career.
The majority of folk I've met actively new-routing are recording them for the benefit of others. Secrecy for these folk is more the preservation of the exploration element, as Solaris put it "How hard is this going to get; can I, of modest ability, get up it?"
These are sweeping observations which I'm sure you could find holes in but I'd suggest holding an obvious grudge against someone so highly regarded doesn't do you any favours on this forum. Mike
Sorry Jim I think you are wrong but I do understand where you're coming from.
When the Paul Williams Pass guide came out in the 80's I formed the opinion he must have been stroking a huge ego and I was pretty vocal about it.
My only defense is youth but, despite being "put right" by so many of his friends, ego was still the only reason I could think anyone would be so prolific. Now I understand where he was coming from and, if it wasn't slate and bolts, I could almost be jealous. To hear you slagging Andy makes me cringe nearly as much as I do when I think what a tit I must have sounded to the N Wales crew in those days.
There are climbers driven by ego, for whom the kudos is a driving force but I tend to find these are the more the "flash in the pan" than either the top-end climbers or habitual explorers. Crag X or line X takes over their lives and everyone hears about it but its often the highlight of their climbing career.
The majority of folk I've met actively new-routing are recording them for the benefit of others. Secrecy for these folk is more the preservation of the exploration element, as Solaris put it "How hard is this going to get; can I, of modest ability, get up it?"
These are sweeping observations which I'm sure you could find holes in but I'd suggest holding an obvious grudge against someone so highly regarded doesn't do you any favours on this forum. Mike
In reply to Cameron94:
A mate once said that we could go new routing absolutely every time we went out in winter, if we never bothered reading the guidebooks.
There is a distinction between "recording" a route, and "claiming" a route. I've recorded low grade routes that have almost certainly been climbed before. I did them because I thought they were worth doing, and recorded them as they were worth recording, from the point of view that I figure others would be happy climbing the routes as well.
I can't see the problem with the line in question. Yes, it's probably been done before, but why not just add it next time the guidebooks are produced, with a note to the effect of first recorded ascent as above, but almost certainly climbed before. No big deal.
A mate once said that we could go new routing absolutely every time we went out in winter, if we never bothered reading the guidebooks.
There is a distinction between "recording" a route, and "claiming" a route. I've recorded low grade routes that have almost certainly been climbed before. I did them because I thought they were worth doing, and recorded them as they were worth recording, from the point of view that I figure others would be happy climbing the routes as well.
I can't see the problem with the line in question. Yes, it's probably been done before, but why not just add it next time the guidebooks are produced, with a note to the effect of first recorded ascent as above, but almost certainly climbed before. No big deal.
In reply to Scomuir:
Good summary Scot... which is why I'd said to Andy & Simon R (see original scottishwinter post): "I’m pretty relaxed about all of this...but if I had to choose, I think I’d come down on the side of recording all routes, and if this means that we document some routes as first recorded ascents, then that seems in my view to be a positive thing."
Good summary Scot... which is why I'd said to Andy & Simon R (see original scottishwinter post): "I’m pretty relaxed about all of this...but if I had to choose, I think I’d come down on the side of recording all routes, and if this means that we document some routes as first recorded ascents, then that seems in my view to be a positive thing."
In reply to Solaris:
You are of course correct. There is a slight difference between adventure and remoteness though? Obviously more people visiting an area makes it feel more accessible, thankfully however physical distance can be an effective barrier (along with less remote alternatives). It's a bit of an academic discussion though as most places are well documented now.
> Err, Yes! I didn't express myself well but my point was that once an area has routes recorded then it gets into guidebooks, becomes more likely to be frequented by those with less of a taste for exploration, and in that sense psychologically less remote.
> But, therefore, 'No', too. A cliff that has lines recored on it *feels* different to climb from one that hasn't. In the latter case, the route can have been climbed a thousand times but the question that makes exploration exciting is always in the back of one's mind: "How hard is this going to get; can I, of modest ability, get up it?"
You are of course correct. There is a slight difference between adventure and remoteness though? Obviously more people visiting an area makes it feel more accessible, thankfully however physical distance can be an effective barrier (along with less remote alternatives). It's a bit of an academic discussion though as most places are well documented now.
In reply to Cameron94:
Definitely report them - Lower grade climbers need things to climb as well you know!
Definitely report them - Lower grade climbers need things to climb as well you know!
In reply to Cameron94:
I record new lines that I think are worth someone else climbing. I've also climbed unlisted stuff, that may have been new, but not thought it worth recording, so I haven't.
I record new lines that I think are worth someone else climbing. I've also climbed unlisted stuff, that may have been new, but not thought it worth recording, so I haven't.
In reply to Scomuir:
Spot on. This holds for all types of climbing. You can always list a line as traditional or pre a given date.
Spot on. This holds for all types of climbing. You can always list a line as traditional or pre a given date.
In reply to Cameron94: this is very odd, i don't see any conundrum. If a route hasnt been recorded and someone decides to record it fair play.
the grade of the route is irrelevant.
just as well i hadnt done that new route as I would have had to call it Torquing Pish
the grade of the route is irrelevant.
just as well i hadnt done that new route as I would have had to call it Torquing Pish
In reply to Erik B:
Brilliant, just what I needed after the weekend!!!
I was out with your Daf.
Stuart
> .
>
> just as well i hadnt done that new route as I would have had to call it Torquing Pish
>
> just as well i hadnt done that new route as I would have had to call it Torquing Pish
Brilliant, just what I needed after the weekend!!!
I was out with your Daf.
Stuart
In reply to Cameron94:
I don't agree. For example in my local climbing venue (Northern Corries) there are a whole stack of similar lines that have been climbed by Lodge instructors. The problem is where do you draw the line - literally and metaphorically? Also depending on the build up some of these lines just disappear.
I've done a heap of 'lines' with clients and students in the Northern Corries on teaching winter climbing courses and having them lead (keeps us well out of the way of the queues on the other (recorded routes)and never thought to record them as although they provide enjoyable climbing they are just that, enjoyable climbing. I fail to see this need to record every single thing regardless of grades. You want to climb low grade routes that are not recorded? Just go have a look, use your own judgement, have a grand day and leave it for someone else to 'discover'.
I think EriK B's comment sums up this debate nicely and it's no often I agree with a weegie!
I don't agree. For example in my local climbing venue (Northern Corries) there are a whole stack of similar lines that have been climbed by Lodge instructors. The problem is where do you draw the line - literally and metaphorically? Also depending on the build up some of these lines just disappear.
I've done a heap of 'lines' with clients and students in the Northern Corries on teaching winter climbing courses and having them lead (keeps us well out of the way of the queues on the other (recorded routes)and never thought to record them as although they provide enjoyable climbing they are just that, enjoyable climbing. I fail to see this need to record every single thing regardless of grades. You want to climb low grade routes that are not recorded? Just go have a look, use your own judgement, have a grand day and leave it for someone else to 'discover'.
I think EriK B's comment sums up this debate nicely and it's no often I agree with a weegie!
Post edited at 10:10
In reply to Cameron94:
The areas we climb are frequented by many, but guidebooks are literally non existent. Any potentially new route we climb (often in well into the low grades) are reported purely because whilst there is good information about established routes, there is so much to go at, its worth advertising. In fact its rare that we would even consider it a 'new route' because the likelihood it has been climbed is so high.
An example of this is one of the 'ice crags' a mere 15min away from the city. Around 7 excellent, short multi-pitch climbs are available form 3+ to 5 and even with the opportunity to climb mixed lines. It doesn't feature in the most recent guidebook. The locals insist they have never seen anyone climb there (and we had quite an audience for such a small village), they also insist they had never seen so much ice there either. The local climbing club had no knowledge of this area and neither did the ice gurus and guidebook writers. Do we claim them as first ascents? well how can we tell? Its impossible to know with somewhere so close, but we were the first to record it. The more important aspect is to let people know that there are excellent cragging spots such a short distance away from town with a good set of climbs at a range of grades.
The whole 'I got a first ascent thing' is just a side to it. I'm more interested in letting people know what's around and that there are great easy lines to climb. I don't care if someone climbs grade XII or something, whilst it is undeniably inspirational, I'd rather hear about stuff that might actually be possible for me and my friends to have a go at.
The areas we climb are frequented by many, but guidebooks are literally non existent. Any potentially new route we climb (often in well into the low grades) are reported purely because whilst there is good information about established routes, there is so much to go at, its worth advertising. In fact its rare that we would even consider it a 'new route' because the likelihood it has been climbed is so high.
An example of this is one of the 'ice crags' a mere 15min away from the city. Around 7 excellent, short multi-pitch climbs are available form 3+ to 5 and even with the opportunity to climb mixed lines. It doesn't feature in the most recent guidebook. The locals insist they have never seen anyone climb there (and we had quite an audience for such a small village), they also insist they had never seen so much ice there either. The local climbing club had no knowledge of this area and neither did the ice gurus and guidebook writers. Do we claim them as first ascents? well how can we tell? Its impossible to know with somewhere so close, but we were the first to record it. The more important aspect is to let people know that there are excellent cragging spots such a short distance away from town with a good set of climbs at a range of grades.
The whole 'I got a first ascent thing' is just a side to it. I'm more interested in letting people know what's around and that there are great easy lines to climb. I don't care if someone climbs grade XII or something, whilst it is undeniably inspirational, I'd rather hear about stuff that might actually be possible for me and my friends to have a go at.
In reply to Erik B:
A much better name!
>
> just as well i hadnt done that new route as I would have had to call it Torquing Pish
> just as well i hadnt done that new route as I would have had to call it Torquing Pish
A much better name!
In reply to george mc:
Looking at the photo, the line looks logical and not too close to other stuff. Obviously if you drew in every single thing folk have nipped up in this area that would be silly - it has to be done on a case by case basis.
> I don't agree. For example in my local climbing venue (Northern Corries) there are a whole stack of similar lines that have been climbed by Lodge instructors. The problem is where do you draw the line - literally and metaphorically? Also depending on the build up some of these lines just disappear.
>
>
Looking at the photo, the line looks logical and not too close to other stuff. Obviously if you drew in every single thing folk have nipped up in this area that would be silly - it has to be done on a case by case basis.
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