/ Mandella has died

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
The Lemming - on 05 Dec 2013
I can vividly remember Msndella walking free from prison on the ITV news. Back then not much happened on a Sunday.

A global Icon has passed away.
gribble - on 05 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

It has been a while coming. He'll always be a hero to me.
Sean Kelly - on 05 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

Just heard although we all knew the end was near. His lack of bitternes after his imprisionment was quite remarkable to see. He is a giant of a statesman. RIP Nelson!
Chris the Tall - on 05 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

RIP to the greatest world leader in modern times. A truely inspirational man
dioliahary - on 05 Dec 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

R.i.p
Alyson - on 05 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

I'm lucky enough to have seen the great man a few years ago. He helped change the world, and that's about the best use of a life I can think of x
Kelcat - on 05 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

"No-one is born hating another person for the colour of his skin or his background or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite."
Nelson Mandela RIP.
Bimble on 05 Dec 2013
In reply to Kelcat:

> "No-one is born hating another person for the colour of his skin or his background or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite."

> Nelson Mandela RIP.

Exactly that. A truly great man, RIP.
Party Boy on 05 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:
I too was lucky to meet him, not long after his release. A great man that inspired a nation RIP
The Lemming - on 05 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:


Over time myths and legends grow out of all proportions.

I truly believe that no myth or legend in years to come with the aid of rose tinted glasses will ever match what Mandella actually accomplished.

Even as a child in the mid 70's living in England I was acutely aware of apartide in South Africa and actively chose not to eat or purchase any fruit with the Cape logo.

Name one person in the history of the written word where one person has been universally liked and respected?
Trangia - on 05 Dec 2013
Dave Garnett - on 05 Dec 2013
In reply to Alyson:

I came close to meeting him in 1995. He was due to make the opening address at a science conference I had helped to organise in Capte Town and we were due to be introduced to him when he arrived. At the last minute something came up and he couldn't make it - and I knew that I had just missed what would have been one of the great moments of my life. I have a letter from his office expressing their regret that he had not been able to attend.

He was an absolute hero, of course, and although many of friends thought we were mad to go to live in South Africa at what they thought was such a dangerous time, I always had confidence that as long as Mandela was involved it would all turn out well.



DR - on 05 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

A truly, truly sad day. On the world stage, I can't think of anyone other than maybe Martin Luther King who I would nominate as man of the (late) 20th and early 21st centuries.

I don't normally cry about things or people I don't know personally but I'm crying now.

RIP. You are free at last.

Davie
Minneconjou Sioux - on 05 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:
A truly great human being and a great example of what we can aspire to become.

R.I.P.
Post edited at 23:01
JoshOvki on 05 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

Very few people make history for their greatness, he will however be one of them.
Blue Straggler - on 05 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

> Name one person in the history of the written word where one person has been universally liked and respected?

Gandhi? Mother Theresa? OK neither of them was without controversy or opponents, but then nor was Mandela.

You did ask.
Edradour - on 05 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

> Name one person in the history of the written word where one person has been universally liked and respected?

A sad day and there is no doubting the positive effect that Mr Mandela had on South Africa and the world in general but let's leave the hyperbole for the tabloids. He had his enemies, and those that didn't respect him, I would have thought that the fact that he spent 27 years in prison was evidence enough of that.

RIP.

The New NickB - on 05 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

There are times when it is good to spell a persons name correctly, this is one of them.

Mandela took a country tearing itself apart through racial conflict, not just the oppression of blacks by the white minority, and built a new country on the principal of peace and reconciliation. A lesson to the world despite the problems of modern South Africa.
balmybaldwin - on 05 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

A great man

Rest In Peace
Oceanrower - on 05 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

I see the rose tinted spectacles are out tonight.

Will we see the same affection for, for example, Jerry Adams?

I hear Winnie was a bit partial to the petrol necklace too,
ads.ukclimbing.com
aln - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

Everyone's favourite terrorist.
krikoman - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to aln:

What good have you done in the world?
johnj on 06 Dec 2013 - 86.112.78.158 whois?
In reply to Alyson:
> (In reply to The Lemming)
>
> He helped change the world, and that's about the best use of a life I can think of x

Indeed the greatest of all modern role models, if all we ever do is try to make the world a better place than we found it then we've done the best we could have x

RIP
aln - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to krikoman:

I haven't killed anyone.
deepsoup - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to Blue Straggler:
> Gandhi? Mother Theresa?

Archbishop Desmond Tutu.
Chris the Tall - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:
I hope some some of the people calling him a terrorist and a killer will spend a little time to read/watch some of the obits over the next two days.

Mandela tried the Ghandhi route, but faced with the brutality of the regime, as evidenced at Sharpesville, he began a campaign of sabotage. Comparing his actions to those of the iRA, or blaming him for the antics of Winnie, show a lot of ignorance. Educate yourselves.
Stuart (aka brt) - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

+1 Well said that man.
Philip on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

Don't feed the trolls.
jkarran - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

Sad news this morning. There are too few people in the world with Mandela's courage, decency and wisdom.

jk
rocky57 - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

I see the media and the world in general is already turning it into a Mandelathon.
Dave Garnett - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to Oceanrower:
> (In reply to The Lemming)
>
> Will we see the same affection for, for example, Jerry Adams?

Gerry Adams always had a political alternative. And his organisation deliberately targeted people rather than property. And arguably didn't have much to complain about in the first place.
Rob Exile Ward on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to rocky57:

Yep, they went overboard when they reported WWII as well.
Chris the Tall - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to Philip:

Yep, there will be trolling, and some of us remember the Federation of Conservative Students.

But I also think there is genuine ignorance - for many people the first time they heard the name Mandela it will have been associated with horrific images of necklacing and so might have assumed he was imprisoned for similar crimes.
Rob Exile Ward on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

I don't know whether this is an appropriate time to post this or not:

http://www.faceofmalawi.com/2013/06/david-cameron-took-part-in-creating-this-poster/

Might be apposite.

Mandela was a great man, his legacy and memory will not be diminished by those who jump on the bandwagon.
tony on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> I don't know whether this is an appropriate time to post this or not:


> Might be apposite.

Or perhaps not. Perhaps Cameron has grown up a bit and changed his views. Perhaps he learned a lesson from the example set by Mandela.
MG - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to tony:

Seems pretty desparate (and unpleasantly opporunisitc) character assaination to me. Being a member of the same organisation that produced the poster does not mean he "took part" in doing so.
IainRUK - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to tony:

Exactly.. 1 it is pretty distasteful to use this to knock cameron.

2. He could change his views. Pushing these stories is going against everything Mandela stood for.

I don't know how directly DC was connected with the posters anyway but it is understandable if he drastically changed his views over time.
Gordon Stainforth - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

There is an imazing amount of prejudice (based on ignorance) spoken about Mandela still. I believe he shall come to be seen, by history, as a kind of 'African Churchill' i.e. someone who played as important a positive world-historical role, in his completely different way. (They really have nothing in common except their greatness/importance of achievement and their ability to pull a whole people behind them)
IainRUK - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Not sure Churchill is a right comparison... he was the right man at the right time but an absolute bastard for much of the other times.

I think I'm in the middle ground re Mandela.. this strange classification of morals regarding terrorist activities when history is written by the victor.

However he still did great things and he took SA forwards in a way I dubt many thought possible. I don't think we need to gloss over the other things for fear of not recognising the great work he did.

TBH when I heard he died I can't say I was saddened, he'd been ill for a long long time. it just seemed wrong for such a regal statesman to be lieing on the edge of life for so long, family battles raging around him. It just seemed so undignified that he fought for a united SA yet hs family were squabbling about as he died.
The New NickB - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to tony:

Cameron met with Mandela in 2007 and supposedly apologised for the actions of his party in the past, I hope it was a bloody good apology.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Chris the Tall - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

Re Cameron - I believe there is no evidence that he was in any way associated with the posters, or even that involved in the FCS, but the FCS did have a very bad reputation at the time. But yes, its water under the bridge and no more relevant that his other Bullingdon club antics.

> TBH when I heard he died I can't say I was saddened, he'd been ill for a long long time.

It's remarkable that he lived so long given all he went through, so rather than be saddened by his death, we should just be glad that he lived

(slightly paraphrasing of Barack Obama)

Free Nelson Mandela for Xmas number 1 anyone ?
Dave Garnett - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:
> (In reply to IainRUK)
>

> It's remarkable that he lived so long given all he went through, so rather than be saddened by his death, we should just be glad that he lived
>

Yes, everyone's been rather coy about his recurrent lung infection, although I'm not sure why. When his importance to a negotiated settlement became clear to the more liberal elements in the National Party government he was suddenly given first class medical treatment and secretly taken to Tygerberg Hospital to be assessed and treated.
Sean Kelly - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to IainRUK:

> Not sure Churchill is a right comparison... he was the right man at the right time but an absolute bastard for much of the other times.


For a true assessment of Churchill you need to read Martin Gilbert's seven volumes on the man and assess his achievements again that time & era. God knows what would have happened if Halifax had become prime minister in 1940. You wouldn't be typing this for a start! Mandella's achievements were very different. But it is his humility, total lack of bitterness, humanity, and the direction he took SA as president which stand as his colossal legacy. We perhaps need to remember what happened in the rest of Africa when the colonialists pulled out. Mugabe, Amin etc.





Ian Black - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

A great example of a former terrorist coming good and earning the respect of most. I wonder if Martin McGuiness will receive such accolades when he passes away.
Jim C - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

It is a nice thought that of two statues,( Mandela and Thatcher) one will be sought out, and recognised by people all over the world, and their legacy admired for hundreds of years.

The other will be generally despised , even by people from their own country, few will seek out their statue, and they will soon be forgotten by the wider world.




muppetfilter - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to tony:

> Or perhaps not. Perhaps Cameron has grown up a bit and changed his views. Perhaps he learned a lesson from the example set by Mandela.

Has Cameron become a wise and selfless man striving for the good of all ... Or is he the same old greedy self serving porcine politician with vested interests and a snouts in the trough reserved for a select few .

Evidence suggests the latter
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to muppetfilter and jim:

a shame that this thread, marking the death of one of the great figures of the last century, seems to be turning into an opportunity for people to grind their axes and score a few political points

given mandela's legacy, which is what this thread should be about, there is a bit of a sad irony in that.
IainRUK - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

> given mandela's legacy, which is what this thread should be about, there is a bit of a sad irony in that.

Spot on..

Ian Black - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs: Many innocent people including women and children were brutally murdered by Mandellas 'MK terrorists'. Thatcher got absolutely slated on here when she died. It's called freedom of speech and that's what should happen in a democracy. We can't always agree on everything...

In reply to The Lemming:

I don't know much about him, but it certainly seems to me that after years of terrible oppression of blacks in South Africa, there was a clear risk (as is so often the case) that when that turned around, the pendulum could have swung to the opposite end of the spectrum. Mandela stopped it somewhere in the middle. He certainly left a positive mark on the world.
In reply to The Lemming:

F*cking awful dress sense though...
no_more_scotch_eggs - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to Ian Black:

it wasnt so much the debate over the legitimacy of his tactics- that seems relevant and fair enough

it was the irrelevant references to thatcher and cameron, using mandela's death to engage in another bout of tory-bashing.

presumably those doing it held mandela in relatively high regard. given that he is remembered as a great man not just for helping overthrow apartheid, but for the manner with which he conducted himself afterwards, his generosity of spirit, lack of bitterness, and emphasis on reconciliation, do they think he would wish his passing to be used as an opportunity to rake over the political disagreements of a previous generation and score a few jibes at political opponents?

IainRUK - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to Submit to Gravity:

> I don't know much about him, but it certainly seems to me that after years of terrible oppression of blacks in South Africa, there was a clear risk (as is so often the case) that when that turned around, the pendulum could have swung to the opposite end of the spectrum. Mandela stopped it somewhere in the middle. He certainly left a positive mark on the world.

Exactly.. I'm not going to condone what he did earlier.. but he was instrumental in stopping what could have easily been civil war..
Chris the Tall - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

Just watched the BBC doc and I've got tears in my eyes

Very moving
In reply to The Lemming:

Just watched the BBC documentary which has filled-in a few of the blanks for me. Incredible man.
In reply to Chris the Tall:

Yes it was. Especially those reconciliation hearings (if that is what they were called). I'm ashamed to admit that I knew nothing about them.
Postmanpat on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

> a shame that this thread, marking the death of one of the great figures of the last century, seems to be turning into an opportunity for people to grind their axes and score a few political points

> given mandela's legacy, which is what this thread should be about, there is a bit of a sad irony in that.

+1 . Another depressing UKC thread.
Chris the Tall - on 06 Dec 2013
In reply to Postmanpat:

So say something positive. All you are doing is adding to the negativity !
Kimono - on 07 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

Mods....can we at least change the thread title to spell his f@cking name right??
aln - on 07 Dec 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> So say something positive.

Never does. Revels in the role of Devil s advocate. Might have opinions, who knows?
ads.ukclimbing.com
Rob Exile Ward on 07 Dec 2013
In reply to Postmanpat:

I've been wondering about this and I've decided I don't regret posting that link.

I really don't like the hypocrisy, cynicism and media manipulation that surfaces at significant moments like this.

Fact is: some people were pretty slow to recognise the wickedness of apartheid, or the true nature of the South African government before the 1990s, or the nature of the struggle for a fairer society in South Africa. Cameron was enjoying expense paid 'fact finding' trips and campaigning for lifting of sanctions when Mandela was still on Robben Island.

At a time like this those in that position could do one of two things, or possibly both: acknowledge the error of their previous judgements or stay quiet.
Postmanpat on 07 Dec 2013
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> I've been wondering about this and I've decided I don't regret posting that link.

>
Wrong thread to do it and guaranteed to spark off a nasty argument.

There is a debate to be had but not on what is primarily a tribute thread to a great man who achieved extraordinary things largely through his spirit of magnanimity.
Chris the Tall - on 07 Dec 2013
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

“As I walked out the door toward the gate that would lead to my freedom, I knew if I didn't leave my bitterness and hatred behind, I'd still be in prison.”

If people learn just one lesson from Mandela it is this, leave the past behind if you want to move forward
Offwidth - on 07 Dec 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

I felt a bit ill watching the tributes. He was once an activist with marxist leanings who decided that violence was sadly the only way to help acheive the greater good in the violently racist regime running SA at that time. Nearly all UK conservatives then labelled him a terrorrist, ignoring completely what he was fighting for.Yet as he became a statesman you always got the impression that unlike almost any other leader who developed from similar backgrounds he really walked the talk.This is also in noticable contrast to almost every politician praising his legacy now. The best memorial would be for people of the world to be more like him in his courage, resilience, humility and humanity; much better this than more platitudes in celebration of the airbrushed news version of the man.
Kimono - on 07 Dec 2013
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> “As I walked out the door toward the gate that would lead to my freedom, I knew if I didn't leave my bitterness and hatred behind, I'd still be in prison.”

> If people learn just one lesson from Mandela it is this, leave the past behind if you want to move forward

he also put it rather nicely thus:
"No-one is born hating another person for the colour of his skin or his background or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite."
The New NickB - on 07 Dec 2013
In reply to Ian Black:

Can you find one example of an MK killing under Mandela's command, deliberate of collateral? I've done a fair bit of searching and I can't find any prior to more than a decade in to Mandela's incarceration.
Seldom Seen Slim - on 07 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

You could have least spelt his name correctly...moron :(
Jon Stewart - on 07 Dec 2013
In reply to Ian Black:

> Many innocent people including women and children were brutally murdered by Mandellas 'MK terrorists'. Thatcher got absolutely slated on here when she died. It's called freedom of speech and that's what should happen in a democracy. We can't always agree on everything...

Yes, true, and while I have some sympathy with those taking the line "the guy just died, can't we all just be nice" I also find your view pretty disgusting so I feel compelled to say something.

For me, there's a massive problem with taking the view that violence simply destroys moral credibility regardless of circumstance and context. I don't know a lot about the history of the ANC, but I thought that after a long peaceful struggle while blacks were being shot dead by the SA police, there was a reluctant giving in to the use of violent tactics. By removing all of the context of what was achieved by violently oppressed people against a repulsive and powerful regime and drawing the completely wonky parallel to Northern Ireland I think you're putting forward a pretty twisted view of the world.

If you can suffer under an oppressive regime and then overthrow it peacefully, I might begin listening. Until then, I'll just assume that you're grasping at ways to cling on to support for politicians who - because of their own self-interest and political allegiances - took the view you're expressing here at the time. After all, the British government under any of the recent administrations doesn't exactly have a clean record on avoiding violent tactics at all costs, does it? (Oh wait, when it's about terrorism isn't it, that's always evil once you've applied the label, no more thought required, but if you've got an army and you can do things properly then that's fine...)
The New NickB - on 07 Dec 2013
In reply to Jon Stewart:

I am not so sure I am prepared to accept the suggestion that Mandela's MK killed dozens on innocent people. The MK sabotage attacks began in December 1961, these all against economic and state mechanism targets, I cannot find any evidence of human casualties. Mandela was arrested in 1962 and finally convicted on conspiracy to overthrown the South African government in 1964. If the government thought they could have brought a murder of conspiracy to murder charge against him, they would done. The first cases of violence against civilians by the MK that I can find is in 1977, by which time Mandela had been in prison for close to 15 years and was most definately not in control of the MK. I would be interested to see any evidence that contradicts this position. I have already asked a couple of times on these forums, but nobody has been forthcoming.

Mandela was not a saint, nobody is, even 'saints', he was a human as anyone else, the obituary in the Guardian is very balanced about his more human side, but I personally find these vague statements his time with the MK pretty unpleasant, because they appear to be based completely on lies.
lynx3555 - on 08 Dec 2013
In reply to The New NickB: Mandela didn't kill any one, he once owned a pistol which he buried on a farm near Johannesburg.
The MK it seems did kill some people but that wasn't their original aim. Sabotage was what they were about, but during the later years some civilians become victims of some of the bombings.....I consider them to have been Freedom Fighters, but they were branded Terrorist which then justified the SA government to execute them, even before there was any victims of the bombings.
This is a good summary of the struggle
http://www.sahistory.org.za/topic/umkhonto-wesizwe-mk-timeline-1961-1990
Ian Black - on 09 Dec 2013
In reply to lynx3555:

.....I consider them to have been Freedom Fighters,






A bit like how lots of Americans viewed PIRA, until 9/11 brought home the reality of terrorism, and I believe this was instrumental in PIRA losing financial backing from NORAID in the states.
The New NickB - on 09 Dec 2013
In reply to Ian Black:

> A bit like how lots of Americans viewed PIRA, until 9/11 brought home the reality of terrorism, and I believe this was instrumental in PIRA losing financial backing from NORAID in the states.

Which has no relevance to Mandela and the MK.
Ian Black - on 09 Dec 2013
In reply to The New NickB:

> Which has no relevance to Mandela and the MK.







There's no fooling you Sherlock!!!
Ian Black - on 09 Dec 2013
In reply to The New NickB: The point was actually a valid one as you obviously viewed Mandella as a freedom fighter much like lots of yanks viewed PIRA...I can't support terrorism in any shape or form.

biped - on 09 Dec 2013
In reply to Ian Black:

Like the French Resistance or Warsaw Ghetto?
The New NickB - on 09 Dec 2013
In reply to Ian Black:
It's Mandela! You have made accusations, try backing them up with facts!
Post edited at 21:00
The Lemming - on 09 Dec 2013
In reply to The Lemming:

That's the thread ruined.

:-(

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.