UKC

I've been reading a book on scottish winter cimbing and have a few questions about some of the climbing techniques mentioned in it. The book is 'Scotland's Winter Mountains' and I think it was written in the late 90's.

1 The book recomends taking a few pegs along for mixed climbs. I thought pegs were off limits for everything in the UK, or are they OK in winter?

2 Will buried axe belays (where one axe is horizontal and one is vertical) work with curved technical axes or are they for straight walking axes?

3 Why are a lot of these methods shown with body belays? Are they better in winter? Is it so the shock load on belays and anchors is reduced? Or is it because people dont bother with a belay plate on an easy gully?

Cheers

In reply to Red Rover:
Pegs are still used on Scottish winter routes, but their use is frowned on by many and they shouldn't be used if there's an alternative

Buried axe belays work with curved axes. There have been studies published about the most effective configurations.

Body belays are used in winter because they make the belayer a stressed part of the system i.e. the force of a falling climber passes through the belayer before it hits the anchors and some is absorbed by the belayer. also it's easier to stop a fall gradually with a body belay, and reduce the forces on the anchors, which in winter, are often not as great as you'd like them to be [e.g. buried axes]

In reply to Red Rover:

Pegs are fair game. They won't be used as much as nuts etc since those are easier to place but can be very handy where nothing else will do.

Yes, body belays can be better on things like easy gullies and after topping out - basically when the belay is not as good as you'd like. However a lot of the time the belay will be absolutely fine, in which case might as well just belay normally with e.g. a sticht plate.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

and where you can use a belay plate, an autolocking type is handy, because you can do other stuff as you bring up your partner e.g. eat, rack gear for handover etc. Can save quite a bit of time.

In reply to csw:


Provided the belay is bombproof of course.

Thanks for the answers.

What pegs do you use, soft or hard ones? And do you take them out afterwards? I've only ever placed pegs in limestone (not in the UK). Although it will be a while until I'm climbing anything that needs pegs.

In reply to csw:

Can you link me to any of the studies showing the best buried axe belays with curved axes?

In reply to Red Rover:

Would always try and remove pegs afterwards - don't like losing gear!

Ok. I love placing pegs but it would feel weird doing it in the UK!

In reply to Red Rover:

I've seen them online, but to find them again, I'd need to google, which you can as well as I - i seem to recall that the best results for highly curved technical axes, wasn't a T configuration, but to place them both horizontally head to spike.... [don't quote me on that]

In reply to csw:

Ok thanks Ill have a look

In reply to Red Rover:

There is some material from an AMI CPD event last winter that covered snow anchors (including buried axe belays), testing them to destruction.

Here are a couple of links that might be of interest:

http://www.huntermountaineering.co.uk/2013/01/cpd-at-the-ami-agm-snow-ancho...

http://www.glenmorelodge.org.uk/cust_images/pdf/mountainsport%20articles/GM...

In reply to Red Rover:

Hard steel pegs are used. Worth bearing in mind that I find them most useful for building belay in gully walls which can be tricky to find conventional anchors. I carry 3 or 4 whenever I climb on Ben Nevis for example regardless of grade.

On snow routes ill also often carry a dead man. Much easier to place on steep snow.than hacking out a good buried axe.

Have fun? You a.crazy limestone aid ninja?

In reply to Red Rover:
Just read your profile crazy caving anchors! The only climbsers into soft steel pegs are aiders and anyone that's used a lead head has My respect

In reply to Red Rover:

Also - WRT to body belays.... its common to have sections where the second will be moving fast on easier ground... taking in fast enough to match their pace will be difficult especially with iced up/snowy/fat damp ropes. Body belay much better here,especially as chances of holding a serious fall are very low with any incident more likley to be giving support to a slip.

When deciding whether to do body or belay device method, do remember if there are more serious sections interspersed with easy and make an appropriate judgement!

In reply to csw: body belays handy to have as an alternative if the rope freezes up and wont pass thru the belay plate quickly enough too!!!!!

In reply to Red Rover:

Thanks for all the advice. I'm going to find a suitable slope and spend a day testing the different anchors and belaying methods.

In reply to Red Rover:

I took a 30 foot lead fall on ice once and my mate held me on a body belay. They do work if you know what you're doing and paying attention.

In reply to pec:


Hope it wasn't a factor 2!

In reply to Jamie B:


No, about 0.25 but it was a peg that held me (wrt the topic of this thread) and it was the only runner on the pitch. If it hadn't held I probably wouldn't be here to write this.

In reply to Red Rover:

Anyone know how stomper belays compare to bucket seats, buried axes or "sat on the plateau with feet against a rock and waist belay." They seem quicker to use than digging stuff in.

In reply to Red Rover: I've used stompers loads of times on firm snow to bring up seconds, but would probably use bucket seat belays too depending on the aspect of slope. I can't recall using a buried ice axe belay as it's just as quick and safe to use the first two belays.

a buried mars bar in old consolidated snow will resist a downwod pull of three or four adults at least.

In reply to jonnie3430:

They're quick, not partiularly stable in the wind. Unlike the waist belay and rock method they need a good depth of snow so not ideal for wind scouted plateaus. Can be quite handy in the right circumstances worth practising.

In reply to alasdair19:


Also a bit tricky with nomics etc - though still muddleable, for those who were about to smugly insist they're crap because you can't plunge them

In reply to jonnie3430:

like any other snow belay they are as good as the snow they are placed in and the judgement of the person who placed them!

In reply to Red Rover:

In this article

http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/the_body_belay

Andy Kirpatrick says, right at the end, its best to use a munter hitch instead. Is this true of all situations when youve got snow anchors rather somthing bomber, that you can just use an italian hitch and thats fine?

In reply to Red Rover:

No. Andy K is talking about alternatives to belay devices, for reasons of not having one on you or for speed, not just in terms of the anchors being crap. When he says munter hitch is better he means for holding a 'modern type of fall', i.e. a leader fall on steep ground. This is correct.

Italian hitch I would have said can be a good solution for if you drop your belay device, but not for crap anchors. The whole point in a body belay is that with the rope around you, (when managed well) the pull should be channeled down into the stance. Whether using a belay device or Italian hitch the pull is straight onto the front of your harness and if there is no decent anchor you risk being pulled off the stance.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Ok thanks. I think I get it now, body belay with bucket seat for snow anchors, belay plate for good rock anchors and a munter hitch if you drop it or want to go fast.

In reply to Red Rover:

Pretty much. Body belay can also be good when you get onto the plateau (kick your feet in and maybe stick axe picks in something if available).

In reply to Michael Gordon:




You've used the words 'munter' and 'Italian' here - are they two different things?

In reply to NottsRich:

No theyre the same knot I'm not sure why I used different names.