UKC

Reading the (truly marvellous) The Peak set me thinking about this.

I don’t necessarily mean the most ground-breaking or historic or even, in a way, impressive ascent.

What I have in mind is the first moment when you hear a piece of news; ‘Fuq me, he (or she) did WHAT?!?!’. Which ascent has provided the highest split-second ‘Wow’ factor in that way?

There’s a few contenders in the book (and many more elsewhere of course).
A le M soloing Revelations has to be up there, but after leading it so many times. JD doing Parthian Shot to some people at the time, perhaps.

But really, rereading the history and looking again at that picture of Tom P, can anything beat Simon Nadin’s onsight solo of Menopause?! I might be wrong, but I reckon that would give today’s stars and probably even tomorrow’s pause for thought; in fact I’d imagine for unrepeatability nothing much comes close.

Any other contenders?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Alex Hannold's solo of London Wall shocked me as this route is 'only' E5 and was an obvous target for soloists for decades before he came along and did it - but none took up the gauntlet - choosing to onsight solo other E6s or new route up to E8 and E9 instead.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Dawes and the Indian Face

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Dave Thomas's solo of Caveman at the Old Redoubt must be up there with its bad rock and the semi submerged reef directly below.

I think for me (and thus we are talking the last decade or so), and I am sure this won¡¦t be a terribly popular candidate, but by your criteria, Dave MacLeod climbing Anubis (E8!!!) in winter. Or seeing Spray On (on video) for the first time.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Dave MacLeod on Echo Wall. All I'd heard was about it being death-on-a-stick, and that he was months away from feeling like he could go for it. The one evening in Alien 2 in Edinburgh, Niall McNair told me that Dave had done it that day. That was a real wow for me.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

For me it was hearing Longhope Direct had been done. This face :o :o :o

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

For me, the FA's of Indian Face, Parthian Shot, Strawberries and Hubble are some of the ascents I think of as classic uk rock climbing.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

For me it was when I heard that Dave MacLeod was working Echo Wall and speculating that it was F8c+ with no meaningful gear. In a high mountain setting. It's an obvious feature but nobody else had even contemplated it, and I suspect that without Dave's ascent that would have remained the case for decades.

The actual ascent was almost anti-climatic. I knew that Dave would grind it down but hearing that he planned to was staggering.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I'd imagine that Whillans and Brown on the Sloth must have had that sort of effect - it's not just a cutting-edge climb, but a style of climbing that would have been totally unimaginable a few years earlier.

Also, for my money Caff's quick repeat of the Longhope was probably actually more shocking than than Dave Mac's original ascent...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Oops you did say UK climbing I know, but......What I find most impressive is what was done in the Eastern Alps, Elbe/Dresen and Czech sandstone way back in the day.

Not that I'm ambivilent about modern adventures,British or anywhere else, but standing at the bottom of a large Dolomite wall and executing as they did, first ascents on them with very rudimentary gear (or indeed none, is extremely sobering and very as you say, 'fuq me' impressive.

So I suppose any of Preuss's solo first ascents would work for me.

In the UK, well, I watched Livesey free Bitter Oasis, that was pretty startling! - There weren't that many around at the time who could do the like of at that then. The impact was probably made greater by witnessing it rather than reading or hearing about it.

Steve

In reply to alooker:

The thing about Dawes and Macleod is that “top climber climbs really hard new route” is a familiar narrative, which in a way robs it of that breath-taking factor.

I suppose at the time people did used to solo at Stoney – Phil Burke on Our Father, for instance. But as far as I can make out Nadin just walked up to the bottom of Menopause and did it, which is another level altogether.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
For me, in my little epoch of climbing, it was reading that Steve Mac had onsighted Mandela @ Kilsney. Although the grade came down (a bit), it was touted as the living end when I'd just started climbing, and looked so outrageous. So for SM to *onsight* it....

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


What about "mouthy youth with little experience outside North York Moors claims new E10"?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Fawcett Masters Edge
Redhead margins of the mind

Stick out for me.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


I hear you there. Was Dave Birkett a "top climber" when he did If Six was Nine in 1992? It was certainly ahead of its time, but didn't seem to attract much noise until years later when would-be repeat ascenscionists were getting shut down by it. If there had been more acknowledgement at the time then I suspect many jaws would have hit floors!

In reply to Jamie B:

I suspect that would have been my choice too, if it weren't that I hadn't got into climbing in 2008.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Well, I wasn't around at the time. And they probably wouldn't have said 'wow' at the time but the two that spring to mind are Jack Longland's lead of Javelin Blade in 1930 and Chris Preston's lead of Suicide Wall in '45.
I certainly thought 'wow' when I did them

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Stand out photo moment for me was johnny Dawes in a mad crucifix position on that famous route Which i cant Remember. But the photo From mags of the Time is still etched in my mind.

Would Love a set of old 80s Climber and high mags.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I remember Right Wall being a big Wow!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Showing my age, but when Crags magazine came out with the image of Ron Fawcett and him giving it 6C WOW.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Although it has relatively little historical impact, in fact most people probably don't even know about the ascent.

To be a stunning moment, doesn't if have to be noticed a bit more?

I am not belittling the ascent here since I am a person who has tried Menopause fully roped up and been well beaten. The thought of soloing it is a differently level to every other solo ascent I can think of. Again, not belittling the ascent, Alex Honnold on London Wall isn't even in the same ball park. Secure finger-locks or even rehearsed solos of well-climbed classics like Revelations, are a totally different proposition to onsight pulling on snappy seldom-climbed, utterly desperate, limestone crux moves above a certain-death fall.

Alan

In reply to robert-hutton:

Think your pronouns are a bit mixed up there - it wasn't Ron giving it 6c, it was Geoff Milburn!

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Do you think Antoine's solo was any the less for having led it nine times over the preceding few days? He told us he'd reduced it to the 'training route' level, but maybe no-one knew this at the time. His solo was still a body blow to the UK climbers for sure.

Have you seen the recent video where Graham Hoey takes Antoine back to Raven Tor and Antoine mimes each move from memory? Only taken on a camera phone but memorable.

For me though it has to be Nadin on Menopause.

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:

>To be a stunning moment, doesn't if have to be noticed a bit more?

Well, that depends on the rules of the game, I suppose. I'd be interested to hear from anyone who was around at the time and did hear about it. (Mick W, for instance).

I agree with Iain P that Caveman has the same sort of impact but a bit less, I think - easier, I suspect, more likely to survive, and ten years later at least.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Geoff Birtles actually!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Geoff Birtles, surely.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Pearson putting up a new E12 back in 2008 ish. Oh wait a minute...

In reply to madasten:

Ouch

In reply to Alan James - Rockfax:



Phil is probably better known for falling off Windy Ledge!


It certainly wasn't a 'well-climbed classic' at the time. Antoine did (IIRC) the second ascent, and maybe Ben Moon had also succeeded on it by the time it was soloed, but it certainly wasn't a well-climbed classic.

In reply to Choss:



quarryman , llanberis slate

In reply to BlownAway:

>Have you seen the recent video where Graham Hoey takes Antoine back to Raven Tor and Antoine mimes each move from memory? Only taken on a camera phone but memorable.

No, where's that?

It's true that Revelations must have had more impact because people didn’t know he’d done it lots before. I can imagine it must have blown people away. But if you told Britain’s top ten they’d be shot at dawn if they didn’t either solo Revelations after as much practice as they liked, or solo Menopause on sight, I’d expect a 10-0 majority in favour of Revelations.

jcm

In reply to Jon Read:

Birtles indeed. Christ. And I can't even get the name of Phil and Graham's book right.

jcm

In reply to BlownAway:

'Well-climbed' classic, rather than 'frequently-succeeded' classic, perhaps?! I'd certainly have thought it had had enough attention to remove the loose rock by then, which is a big issue on Menopause, I'd imagine.

jcm

In reply to lithos:


Thats the one, thank you.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Totally agree. I snapped an (unessential) hold of Menopause on my attempt.

Alan

I remember Stuart Cathcart 's solo of The Cad being something - but maybe a DWS now?
and Phil Davison's solo or Right Wall (now done a lot). Was it SC who 2nd right wall in trainers ?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

For me John the WOW or F*q me moment is not necessarily when I read, hear of or witness some gob-smacking ascent but when I experience it for myself at whatever grade. Routes that do this would include Il Duce, Devil's Slide, The Moon, even good old Cenotaph Corner, and, dare I say it Right Angle!

Not that I don't agree with most of the choices above!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Pete Whittaker climbing Wallaby arete at Roaches at the weekend. (Disclaimer: this might not be what he calls it)

Best grit climber ever, who's already FAed two of the hardest outcrop lines in the world goes a step further (by the sounds of preliminary reports at least). Takes us into solid outcrop H10. Gobsmacked - just when I thought everyone who climbed on gritstone was more into boulder buckets and energy drinks. Yes!

In reply to lithos:


Graeme "the brat" Livingstone, seconding Louise 'someone' from Oz, I think.

In reply to lithos:

>Was it SC who 2nd right wall in trainers ?

Graeme Livingstone occasionally of this parish, I think. And wasn't it Lord?

Actually, another FM moment would be hearing that Phil Davidson had gone back to solo RW *again* for photos! And indeed DT doing Lord above a crowded gearing-up ledge.

jcm

In reply to Iain Peters:

Well, yes, sure. A different category.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

One could also argue that there have been so many stunning moments within the historical context. FA, Napes Needle, CB, Great Wall Cloggy and so on and so on. Almost impossible to compare one with another.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Yep, very often the only way we know something new is very hard is because someone we know is very good says its very hard, so there's a slight disconnect there. Plus there's the fact that often these routes are often on obscure crags (If 6 was 9 for example) or on a crag already covered with hard routes (Indian Face, Rhapsody) so it takes a certain amount of second hand knowledge for most of them to assess them.

Master Edge's is a clear and obviously hard challenge, but my vote goes to Mandela on Kilnsey - partly due to the fact that I remember my disappointment when I looked through a guide and discovered none of the routes went to top of the crag.

In reply to Iain Peters:

If you're talking about impact on the scene though and mind-boggling events, then surely that is reasonable quantifiable - albeit slightly inaccurately

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
A couple stick out - Ste Mac climbing Overshadow. By far the hardest piece of route climbing in the country (VNB is a bloc with 3 bolts).
Phil Davidson soloing Right Wall and even more impressively Cockblock.
Ron doing Careless Torque in '87. In shoes which aren't genetically that far removed from wellies.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

Surely soloing Menopause on sight is more impressive than RW or Cockblock even if PD hadn't done them before, which I have an idea he had (certainly the second time he soloed RW, anyway!).

The other two, to me, are both very impressive in a different way, but don't quite have the same 'wow factor' I'm talking about.

jcm

In reply to andy farnell:

Or Desperate Dan in what? 1979? and in boots that were no more than bad wellies - and asents of this seem to still be newsworthy even today, sticky rubber and pads included.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Jaw-dropping how did they do that? I can see a lot of the above, (E8 in winter, regardless of the debate that followed) but for me it is Pete Whitakker doing what still seems an unfeasible rock-over on a climbing dvd. The dvd was Committed, I can't remember the route, but I'm sure someone will tell me.

In reply to Andy Say:


As far as I can make out Javelin Blade was regarded as a normal VS, no harder than say Belle Vue Bastion, until about 1970. Dennis Gray once told me he did it in 1960 or so and it was indeed about VS, but something must have fallen off between then and when he next did it. Of course another explanation is age taking its toll; we've all had a similar experience when repeating routes, I'm sure.

Suicide Wall is probably an excellent call, since unlike many new routes it was a well-known problem and people hearing the news would have had an idea of its difficulty.

jcm

In reply to mav:

Dynamics of Change, possibly? Agreed it's a startling sight.

jcm

In reply to mav:

Dynamics of Change at Burbage. I must admit, that one does get a 'how the f*ck did he do that? vote

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

probably more impressive but i dont remember it (which says more about me than the
event) so therefore doesn't feature in MY list but if this is top trumps then happy for SN to
win

and Big Ron's stuff in EB's - any of the stars of today try these routes in EBs for laugh
seems like something Pete W would do (given his fruit based ascent of Masters Edge)

In reply to Jon Read:


Louise Shepard http://www.louiseshepherd.com.au/

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



I asked Dave about his ascent (which included putting up a new direct finish on sight) and the tide was out so a fall would have been fatal. Also, Dave's solo of Lord of the Flies was pretty gobsmacking.

In reply to Franco Cookson:

Pete Whittaker for me too. Only been climbing a few years but seeing that move on Dynamics of Change was certainly the ‘Fuq me, he (or she) did WHAT?!?!’ moment I remember most.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Looks like I was beaten to it!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



I've just uploaded it to the book's Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/groups/ThePeakPerformanceBook/

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Best visual moments for me are Johnny Dawes on the Quarryman and Pete Whittaker on Dynamics of Change. Watching those my jaw hit the floor.

Dave Macleod gets most of my other entries for sheer ridiculous ability: him smashing out 8cs in Magic Wood then saying that they were way easier than the 8B boulder he did in Glen Nevis; that time he downclimbed basically all of the Tempest at grade X so he could keep the onsight when he went for it the next day. And that Castles in the Sky horizontal roof on natural gear too. Unbelievable.

Oh and that insane period when 'unknown' Greg Boswell basically did half the VII/VIIIs in Scotland a few years back blew my brain a bit too.

In reply to GeoffRadcliffe:


Absolutely: it's bad enough looking down when you're clipped in on the stance of Dreadnought watching your second struggle and knowing they don't have prussiks with them!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously

I'd say its got to be a combination of really hard and well known and/or climbed by someone pretty surprising to meet the requirements. Yet all the ascents in the UK pale compared to Honnold solo on Moonlight Buttress.

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm not so sure about that. Menopause is at least comparably hard and a lot looser, not to mention about 20-25 years earlier..

jcm

In reply to Offwidth:


To me that is not so impressive. He spent a fair bit of time practicing it before he did it and the route was well within his abilities. To jump on the menopause bandwagon (good out of context quote for you there!), the climbing is of a similar difficulty (though admittedly a lot less of it), on worse rock, done onsight, and all that done 20+ years ago.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Neil Dickson (what happened to him?) onsighting the Hollow Man in the film Onsight.

Or Caff onsighting raped by affection.

In reply to Offwidth:

>
> I'd say its got to be a combination of really hard and well known and/or climbed by someone pretty surprising to meet the requirements. Yet all the ascents in the UK pale compared to Honnold solo on Moonlight Buttress.

I edited that out of my original post above as the OP asked for UK based contributions. The footage of AH on MB is scary to watch. Stunning stuff. Dave Birkett's reaction to news of this solo says it all!

Some other general 'wow' moments have come from 'foreign wads' who have spanked the grit. Toby Benham aka Lucky Chance (http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=64914) and Toru Nakajima (http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=48849) both left deep impacts!

In reply to Red Rover:

>Or Caff onsighting raped by affection.

Didn't Pete Robins do that long before?

jcm

In reply to Shani:

Is that really Help The Aged Toru N is on? I thought that was, er, something else with a similar name, possibly even Help The Young. HTA is a slab/mantel/jump sort of thing, isn't it?

jcm

In reply to Shani:

Toru's exploits on Cornish granite during the BMC International Meet in 2010 left a large and pretty competent themselves, audience totally gobsmacked. On that same meet, an American girl, forget her name, led a new 7a pitch at Hella Point with Pat Littlejohn. Pat returned to the hut slightly shellshocked having definitely experienced a WOW F*q me moment!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Coincidentally, Mike Owen has a recent entry on his blog about Phil Davidson. The photo of Phil, virtually in the splits, high on Right Wall was a real jaw dropping moment when I first saw it. See it here

http://mikeowenfrance.blogspot.co.uk/2013/11/loud-and-proud.html

In reply to Shani:

Im aware just pointing out UK wows will be much smaller than his US based trad world wow.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Dave Peggs solo of madman and Morley Woods asent of Kellys overhand 1920s

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

'as far as I can make out Nadin just walked up to the bottom of Menopause and did it'

At a far easier grade, a schoolboy Nadin did just that while my friend and I were gearing up for Dead Banana Crack. He walked up, said, 'Do you mind if I have a look?' and soloed it without a pause.

Someone whom I used to know was present when he soloed Menopause, and was unable to watch.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



Not quite fitting the brief, but watching the footage of Dawes on Quarryman when it first came out (1988ish in StMon) certainty sticks in my mind.

And hearing about the Honnold on-sight of London Wall - certainly a "he did what!?" moment for me.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Not completely a wow moment, but I remember being mucho impressed reading about a Brit team consisting of Simon Nadin, Johnny Woodward and Craig Smith attemtping Hall of Mirrors in Yosemite.

Must be a contender for Strongest Climbing Team Ever Assembled for that era, if not ever.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Yeah, the caption is wrong, it's Help the Young. He's also doing the sit-start which is a lot harder than V6!

I haven't done Moonlight buttress but I struggle to believe it is 'easier' than Menopause by any measure. Menopause has some snappy, sustained 5c followed by a very short crux - a single move 6b/c depending on reach. When I did it I wasn't aware of a reputation and it didn't seem a huge deal. When I heard about Nadin's solo I was hugely impressed, but it didn't blow me away like hearing about Honnold on Moonlight. I've spoken to guys like Bransby and Birkett about how hard Moonlight is, and to suggest Menopause is harder seems ridiculous, onsight or not.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Seeing Stone Monkey for the first time blew my mind. I'd not been climbing for all that long when it was on Channel 4, and me and my mates were just floored by it. It opened up whole new world of gymnastic possibility in climbing that I'd never seen before.

When I did Great Central Route (HVS 5b) on Dow Crag I was astonished that it had been first climbed in 1911. I wouldn't have wanted to do it with the gear they had available then.

I think I'd have to go for the 1st ascent of Indian Face as the one 'crikey' moment that stands out.
The first ascent of Strawberries would be another.
Dream topping is such a good name for the alt finish as well!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

John Streetly. First ascent of Bloody Slab in 1952 deserves a mention.

In reply to John2:
Hi John, a friend of ours also watched this ascent(Nadin on Menopause), the conditions were not ideal, damp. Littlejohn & Terminal Twilight was a reasonable effort.
But for me and Sarah it was definitely Masters Edge, I can still remember Henry Folkard (BMC) calling us to tell us the news.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
In terms of personal impact the Revelations solo blew me away at the time as I had aspirations to on-sight it (ho, ho and never did it) and then this guy comes along and solos it!

I also watched Simon solo Menopause although I didn't realise who it was until afterwards - lunatic was initial reaction. I recollect it's quite necky anyway on the lead plus loose bits but not technically hard (compared to Revelations) so if obliged to make a life and death choice would have gone for Menopause! (Past tense - neither are possibilities these days!)

In reply to GridNorth:
John Streetly's Blood Slab was very impressive and must have rattled Don & Joe's cages a little. In 1969, Al Rouse soloed up Boldest watched by Pete Minks - Cliff Phillips - Richard MacHardy - Brian Molly & myself - Tut & Paul Nunn were above on Boulder . The fact that Tom Patey had died only the week before made it all the more nerve wracking. What about Eric doing the Gates solo in the rain on World of Sport live... Ron told me he would not have done it in those conditions...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Has anyone mentioned Dave Thomas soloing Lord? That was a wow for me - didn't he get slagged for being silly?

Like Offwidth says there's a bunch more impressive things happened in the States - Croft's solo of Astroman is the one for me.

E

In reply to Enty:

If we go outside of the UK the ONLY feat which has totally blown my mind was Ueli Stecks solo of the North Face of the Eiger in under 3 hours. I've been on the Eiger and I just cannot get my head round that time.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Leo houlding on sighting masters wall, then?

In reply to GridNorth:


So mind blowingly fast even though it's a solo? I've not been near it, genuine question.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



Yes it was Lord of the Flies, without, afaik, falling off.

OP: The above's on-sight solo of The Risk Business, Mal Duff's 1st ascent of Postman Pat after an epic drinking marathon, Mark MacGowan and Colin Gilchrist's winter ascent of Red Slab and Rick Campbell and Paul Thorburn's Aphrodite.

In reply to Enty:

I always got the impression Dave Thomas got slagged off because his face didn't fit, I could be wrong though. I was awestruck by his soloing (still am if I think about it).

There was a good vid of him doing some horrible south coast choss nightmare on here recently, he doesn't appear to have mellowed!

In reply to MattDTC:



I had a big poster of that on my bedroom wall for years in the eighties!

In reply to Adam Long:


Fair enough. I guess for a lot of people it's about what they can relate to, many in the UK can comprehend onsight soloing a snappy E5 route in a really dangerous position. Comparatively few people here can comprehend what soloing Moonlight Buttress really involves as so few people here have done it. Similarly for Dave Ts solo of Lord, or Stevie on Positron (was it positron or one of the other big E5s?)

In reply to GridNorth:


Having taken 4 hours to get to the start of the Hinterstoiser - and I thought we were going well - I too cannot get my head round Stecks time.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Not really answering the question properly but Simon Nadin's whole climbing career in late 80s/early 90s was one big you what!? moment. Relative unknown from Buxton does first ascents of loads of grit lgps in Staffordshire, solo's ridiculous things, wins first world cup beating all the big names, onsights 8a+ etc etc. Topped off with a typically nonchanlent and low key ascent of Beau Geste for the TV cameras in the days long before youtube.

In reply to Ian Patterson:

Yes, thing on a String Springs to mind.

String/spring, whatever. Cant Remember Which but can visualise route im thinking of

In reply to GridNorth:


Alex Huber's solo of the Brandler Hasse is surely up there!

In reply to Shani:

Good but Hansjorg Auer solo of The Fish unbelievable

In reply to Shani:

Nowhere near as impressive for me as Hansjörg Auer's solo of the Fisch - a harder route with far less rehearsal. If there was a British connection I'd say this would be the winner.

I think I also was at Stoney when Simon did Menopause - I remember looking up and seeing someone soloing but I didn't know the crag well enough at the time so didn't know how impressive it was. However, for me doing that onsight sounds like much the preferred option than soloing Revelations after practice; I suppose that puts me in jcm's 10% rather than the majority.

The problem with quantifying stunning moments is that new routes traditionally had little aura until people had repeated them, or at least attempted to, so the significance of the ascent only becomes apparent later. By contrast fast repeats or solos of existing routes can be quantified as soon as the news hits the brain.

My money would be on Revelations or Master's Edge.

In reply to Tony & Sarah:

Snap!

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I think the only time I stopped and thought 'wow' was when I heard that Livesey had done Right Wall - it just seemed outrageous,


Chris

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Adam Ondra's onsight of the full height of Mallam Cove was pretty spectacular. Not a super high grade, but super long and I would guess not a huge amount of people onsight anything at Mallam...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I remember being gobsmacked by the picture in one of the climbing mags of Pat on Terrorhawk at Cilan, well impressive.

In reply to Tony & Sarah:


I forgot about that. Good choice, especially given the circumstances; he'd failed on it a few years earlier and even when he did do it publicity seems to have come from a team on a neighbouring route who saw him and took a photo.

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP19/newswire-auer-dolomites-fish-solo

lots of people are going for solos, Kev Shields soloed Newtyle's fast and furious M10, Dave Mac says that no one else would/could! 3 times too!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Yes, walking into the pub on a Thursday club night and somebody said 'Have you heard? Livesey's just climbed Right Wall!' Having been up for a look at at rusty bolts from attempted aid ascents in the 50's. It really did look blank.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Don't want to ruin this for you John, but Revelations is a boulder problem off the deck, then 7c to the top. So in effect, the high bit is a 7c...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I should imagine a few jaws dropped in the Wasdale Inn when word broke about Botterill and his eponymous slab.

In reply to Adam Lincoln:


Maybe so Adam, but this was 1985. Numbers were different then, and Revelations was the then state of the art.

Has Antoine's feat been repeated?

In reply to BlownAway:


True.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
You're all wrong, it was a mate of mine around 1982, soloing Sex Dwarves at Millstone in Nike trainers in order to impress a girl he was trying to woo. We were all stunned, but not in a good way

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I'd probably go for Indian Face.

Still hasn't been onsighted - 27 years after the first accent - in fact has anyone even improved on JD's style of ascent in any major way?

After that, I think I'd go for either Right Wall or Footless Crow - both routes changed British climbing.

Of course, in 1968, Our Father was a bit special!

In reply to Mr Fuller:

that time he downclimbed basically all of the Tempest at grade X so he could keep the onsight when he went for it the next day.


this one. astounding.

In reply to Adam Lincoln:


No pads. One mate below (seemingly taking photos, not spotting). If A le M had popped out of the knee-bar, surely he'd have gone flying off backwards and landed straight on that glacis below? A horrible, horrible fall.

And, if he'd got pumped on the hard bit, which was then state of the art (thankfully he didn't!), soloing the F7c above, back then...

mick

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:


Was that when Sex Dwarves was still ludicrously given E5? Grade aside, getting up it in trainers was a good little effort. Matchsticks, those footholds!

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

The quote I always liked - no idea from whom: "I wouldn't mind, but he's not even supposed to be the good one!"

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Interesting thread John, though your title is rather misleading!

Thinking back to things which have amazed me when I heard about them, then it was always the stuff I didn't know was being 'projected' which really made me sit up.

So whilst Echo Wall may be a hard route, there was an inevitability about the outcome, even if it did come a bit sooner than folk had been anticipating. The same goes for majority of other long-term sieges.

I do remember being amazed when I heard about Simon's Menopause solo. I wasn't there, but I'm fairly sure he didn't solo the first pitch - I think he started up Our Father, or perhaps Scoop Wall. Although not the technical crux, the first pitch is the one with the snappy rock and inobvious moves. By contrast, the top pitch is one bouldery move into a short-lived shallow groove, all on perfect rock. But a quite audacious solo, nevertheless.

But the solo of Revalations really was in a different league. You have to remember that it was by common consensus the hardest route in the UK at the time, and people simply shook their heads - not in disbelief, but sheer amazement - when they heard about Anthoine's solo. I think tracking down a photo of such a historic event (when no photos had been seen before) is Peak Rock's biggest coup, as far as recent history goes.

More recently, I was amazed when I heard about Pete Whittaker's lead of the Headless Horseman arête this Sunday, but that is mainly because I hadn't heard he (or anyone) had been trying it. Chatting to him at the wall on Monday, he was typically downplaying the significance, though he did let slip that it did feature some of the hardest moves he had ever done...

Mitch thinks 6c/7a, though local expert Justin Critchlow (from a 2008 blog comment) disagrees...

http://gritlist.wikifoundry.com/thread/2079957/The+headless+horseman+arete+...

Neil

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Another ridiculous UKC thread, but... Since you asked...
In UK terms, and focusing on winter, Marshall and Smith's week in 1960 on the Ben is a clear winner. As for rock... mmm... More difficult.

Cheers
Stephen

In reply to All:

Did anyone mention Everest?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
as 20 year olds in the 59/60 season we would sit open mouthed in the pass watching others struggle up Cemetry Gate or Cenataph corner, the apex of climbing to us "Our O my god how" came a few years later when our 17 yr old came home and casually said Ive just lead Cemetry gate! Mind you his grand father was one of the first to do Long Climb on Laddow in the 30s
Not climbing history perhaps but deffinately family history

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Jerry Moffatt on "You Bet!"

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Jason Myers' ascent of Brad Pitt was pretty 'Cor wow' for bouldering during the 90's. Especially with the sequence he used.

Not that I could use any sequence to climb it...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Whoever said Hansjorg Auer and The Fish was right on the money. Honnold's soloes are obviously incredibly impressive but he spoiled it by doing so many of them first!

Neil - I'm sure Revelations was an incredible thing, but knowing it was practised a lot first - is it truly more impressive than Indian Face, even? I have no idea, in truth. It does have in common with Menopause a sort of unbelievable audacity (and yes, the photo was a fantastic coup). And you're right about the thread title; it wasn't quite right. Perhaps 'jaw-dropping' would have been a better adjective.

I'm surprised to hear JA would go for Menopause onsight rather than Revelations rehearsed, but what do I know? Maybe in truth the majority would too. What about you, Adam? (either!)

jcm

In reply to Mick Ward:
Yep, a mighty E5 partner to The Sniveling. I was proud to solo them in EBs!

In reply to robert-hutton:


Thats my photograph and I know for a fact that Ron didn't give it 6c, it was a Birtles publicity ploy.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

In the UK Big Ron in EB's consistently had me saying 'wtf?' in the late 70's.

Abroad - hearing what John Gill had done. Blew me away. Still does.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Given that I can't do Revelations it would have to be Menopause! Interesting what Neil said about Simon not doing the initial section - I'm not surprised. The top section is a single move into perfect rock. Given Nadin's form at the time it's amazing but not unbelievable. Unlike Moonlight or the Fish...

In reply to Adam Long:

>The top section is a single move into perfect rock.

Well, you know that now.....to be fair, SN may have known it as well, even if he hadn't done it before presumably people talked about routes then as now.

jcm

In reply to Neil Foster:


Yes, he did one of those to start, but I can't remember which. I suspect it was Our Father, but thinking about it, when I asked him, he was a bit unsure as well.


Revelations was different I agree, but was it widely known at the time that Antoine had firstly used the new (to the UK at the time) French method to practise the route, then make the second ascent, and then followed this by leading it a further eight times?

Sure, it was impressive, and I sure as heck couldn't do it, ever, but he had it well wired.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

He had eyes too. It's pretty obvious what the score is when you get there.

In reply to Adam Long:

I suppose so. Although by that point it's a little bit inconvenient if you decide to go down.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Not really, step left one move and you can go up or down Scoop wall. Or step right and you are back in the Our Father cave, with a choice of exits at 5b. One of the few spots on limestone I'm happy to go soloing.

In reply to Adam Long:

Yes, I was being stupid, I forgot you could go up alternative routes as well as down them.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
I imagine there were jaws dropping around the UK when climbers heard about Robin Smith and Jimmy Marshall and "that week" on Ben Nevis.

Shamelessly stolen from wikipedia, but too well written to spoil!

"In one winter week on Ben Nevis in February 1960 they were to transform the shape of Scottish winter mountaineering. Using rudimentary ice-climbing gear, Smith and Marshall led six difficult and committing routes at the cutting edge of what was then possible. They also repeated Point Five Gully in seven hours, a route that had only been climbed once before the previous year by a team led by the English climber Ian Clough which took more than 40 hours over six days. Smith and Marshall were to interrupt their week with a single rest day involving descent to Fort William, a pub crawl and temporary arrest by the local constabulary over an incident with some dominoes. This brief respite was not to slow their pace, indeed their final day was to be one of the finest of their climbing careers with the ascent of Orion Direct, a climb alpine in atmosphere and so advanced that Scottish winter mountaineering had to wait a decade before changes in technique and equipment permitted a repeat."

Not to take away from the other ascents mentioned here, but in terms of pushing the boundaries of what was possible, p*ssing all over the established norms (at the time), climbing routes that are still impressive now with unbelievably poor equipment (I think I remember reading that on one day they only had one pair of crampons between them? Even if they did have two pairs, they were still cutting a lot a of steps!), and generally having a brilliant time, this is one of the most impressive pieces of climbing I've ever heard of...

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Sex Dwarves is a 6b lowish boulder problem (due mainly to polish) into an E2 5b slab and for some is maybe easier as a pure flat smear where trainers will be fine for the talented. Snivelling is matchstick crimps and a heinous lump mantel and arguably E4 above that, way harder. Both are a silly addition to this thread.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



I agree with most, it's the on-sight solos that blow you away.

I don't know if it was reported anywhere and I may have just imagined it, but I'm pretty sure Caff on-sight soloed Souls in Hunstman's Leap (maybe it was a 'shallow water solo'? That blew me away. The crux is at the top, it's pumpy, it's bulging and it's blind and I just can't imagine how you could have the balls to solo it on-sight.

It knocks all the cracks and fingerlocks into a cocked hat for me (Nadin's solo of Menopause is mental, but at the end of the day it's a reachy one-move boulder problem off decent holds for a decent fingerlock... albeit in a ridiculously exposed setting).

In reply to Tom Briggs:

There was a report of Caff SWSing *something* in HL, I recall, though I didn't think it was Souls.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Another one that left an impression was at Uni in about '95 a young chap called Matt Nuttall who was v talented and soloed Right Wall on-sight. He must have been about 19. We were doing a lot of soloing on the grit, but Right Wall...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Two n00bsome questions, please.

1. When le Menestrel soloed Revelations, how did he get down?

2. How do you pronounce Nadin?

In reply to Shani:

Didn't Rich Simpson onsight solo it.......

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



Hunter Killer possibly? I remember it being mentioned on a ukb thread

In reply to Andy Moles:



Naydin

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


You sure it's not Nadd-een?

In reply to Tom Briggs:


I thought that it was still tough after that move. I managed the move first go but I fell off higher up.

In reply to Jon Read:
I assume Loise


I assume Louise Shepherd?

In reply to Tom Briggs:

That's right. He on-sight soloed Souls. I don't think the presence or absence of a tide at the bottom would make a vast difference to the outcome of a fall.

In reply to leo:


Bloody?
By all accounts, the most amazing. Basically someone who had barely climbed before did something that no-one else then, or much later, could do. And then disappeared from the climbing scene.

In reply to MikeTS:


Apart from the odd, fascinating cameo, such as an early ascent of Suicide Wall. Whillans sitting on wet, grassy ledge, no belay, Streetly running it out, no runners.

Onlooker to Whillans. "Bloody hell, what'll you do if he comes off?"
Evil grin. "Slow 'im down a bit... and then jump after 'im!"

Impressive stuff from someone once told he'd, "never make a proper climber."

Hope for us all!

Mick

In reply to Andy Moles:



If you take a look at the photo in Peak Rock you can see a hanging rope quite a way over to the side. AlM climbed Revelations and then used this rope to descend, probably lowered by Tribout. He didn't wear a harness for the solo, but had a piece of tape wrapped round his waist (you can see in the photo there is some rainbow tape - all the rage at the time) to facilitate the descent.

In reply to Adam Long:
Interestingly, Simon did the crux move, decided he didn't fancy the upper grove (damp?), reversed the crux, had a think then soloed it. Admittedly the crux is a long reach between two good holds and for a tall person isn't too bad But, on-sight, solo, and the top groove doesn't look a pushover as you enter it, its still audacious.

In reply to Adam Lincoln:



True, but current 'wads' and ex-wads I've asked consider his solo ascent to be good E9, making it the first in the country. The stepped landing is horendous to think about hitting - a real back-breaker. If you're lucky you might not end up paraplegic.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Most solos Dave Thomas has done rank pretty highly!

In reply to Graham Hoey: i think Menopause solo would be E9 as well

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: for me Derek Herseys solo of Naked Edge and Diving Board in Eldorado thats scary

In reply to John Dunne:


Difficult for me to say. I find the crux a hard move, but I'm 5' 7". The hold you reach off is good and the footholds fine, so an exploratory go at the move wouldn't be too committing, and if you're tall would gain the good (to someone as good as Simon) hold at the base of the groove. To carry on after this would have required a lot of self-confidence, which Simon definitely had at the time. Gut feeling is not E9 for Simon - but who knows?

In reply to John Dunne:


Neither were onsight, and while I've only ever done the Diving Board with a rope I thought it was a fair bit easier than the Edge. Soloing either to me is nowhere near as impressive as soloing Revelations at a similar time in history.

In reply to john arran: i'm not saying that just that they are impressive.

Revelations solo was way ahead of its i was there to see it E9 for sure

In reply to Graham Hoey:


Interesting.

In reply to Offwidth:


Sorry, oh wise one.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

I was going to mention my ascent of Pedestal Route, on top rope, but I think that I'll keep my gob shut now... Not that it's particularly easy to arrange a top rope on Pedestal Route, mind. Still Kelly and Hoey saw fit to overlook it? Their loss.

In reply to Adam Lincoln:
Be interesting to know the french grade of unprotected E9's on grit. I suspect they are no harder than f7c? E.g. what is the french grade for Meshuga (E9 solo?) and how does a solo ascent of that compare with Revelations?

In reply to Graham Hoey:


Meshuga is 7c to top rope... So similar i guess.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

A little off topic I admit, but how many of us have used the OP's words or something very similar when they first arrive at the jump into The Great Zawn? !

In reply to John Dunne:

So here's a moderately alternative suggestion.
Allan Austin soloing Wall of Horrors. Given it was a well rehearsed headpoint of a strenny F6b(+?), to commit to that when he did was miles ahead of the rest of the world at that time, except perhaps for slightly earlier stuff in eastern europe?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

From a personal point of view, my ascent of Vector - second on a rope of three, showing only nominal signs of trouser stain, and with a permanently taught, bow-string rope...way back in 1977. A leap of faith before its time.

On the other hand...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

If someone had soloed Loculus Lie three times in a row, now that would be stunning!

In reply to davidj:

Simon Nadin did the traverse on Loculus Lie for me three times in a row for photos for my Peak book. He couldn't do the finishing moves on the front face because it was a hot and sweaty summer evening, so I concentrated on getting pictures of him on that specatular traverse. He would reverse back down Sloth each time for a rest, as if it was a standard descent route. Unfortunately the light turned a bit poor and the shots weren't quite good enough to use.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

It's interesting that no-one has mentioned anything done by the Rock and Ice. Did Great Slab in plimsolls in 1949 not rate the odd 'Fuq me'? I guess there's pretty much no-one around who remembers being in whatever the climbers' hang of the time was when the news arrived.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Of course there is no one moment. But the first ascent of Bloody Slab by a complete unknown must have raised a few eyebrows, especially given the amazing pictures. The Bells, The Bells had quite an aura when it was first done. And going back a bit, I think people were quite impressed by Central Buttress.

In reply to Iain Peters: A little off topic I admit, but how many of us have used the OP's words or something very similar when they first arrive at the jump into The Great Zawn? !

I first did the jump with Pete Livesey, I think we were on the way to Deja Vu, Pete said he would go first but cunningly suggested we tie in before he jumped. He just lept out and landed safely, when I got to my turn, I paused and looked horrified at it. the next thing I was flying through the air, Pete had pulled me off the ledge, I landed safely beside a grinning Pete!
Do you know who first found that route of entry Iain?

In reply to Jon Read:


Agree, amazing ascent for its time - and Western Front if he hadn't even managed to top-rope it first. I guess he thought, "Just one more jam and then it's going to be OK." But, even so...

Re the rest of the world, surely Gill's routes on The Thimble (done a little later?) would win outright. Harder than any(?) route yet climbed in any fashion, onsighted, above an unthinkable fall.

Mick

In reply to Al Evans:

I think it may have been AW Andrews himself, but if not probably Banks and Deacon when they made the FA of Green Cormorant Face. Pete Biven found the traverse alternative, which does provide an escape back to the main platform, but is incredibly greasy!

I agree with, I think, Neil above when he points out that the title of this thread is a little ambiguous.
I wasn't around to witness it (quite!) but I would imagine that those watching would have used the gentleman's equivalent of John's phrases when H-S heaved himself onto the summit of Napes Needle.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Nadins onsights of The Groove and Urgent Action must rank up there. They were way ahead of anything else done at that point.

Andy F

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Ivar Berg, 1914, ascent of High Neb Buttress. Pre cams and decent footwear, that has to have been highly notable.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Brown and Whillans on the West Face of the Dru must be up there? I'd imagine that people not around that scene would have been aware that those plumber chaps from Manchester are doing some impressive gymnastics on their little outcrops, but for them to casually saunter up a major cutting-edge international testpiece in the Alps must have made a few people choke on their tea...

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
Johnny Dawes and John Dunne on grit in the late 80s.Before that the climbers operating in Yorkshire and the Peak...John Allen Steve Bancroft,Gabe Regan,John Syrett,Al Manson,Mike Hamill (not forgetting the Smith brothers in Northumberland).
All the above broke through massive psychological barriers as well as physical ones.
Otherwise John Gill comes to mind.Bouldering's meaning changed because of him.From the US ....so strictly speaking not to be counted but a massive influence on some of the above folk who travelled to the US in the mid to late 70s.

In reply to Ramblin dave:



certainly shocked the French, probably the event (together with their ascent of the Balatière) that showed that British alpinism was back to the highest standards of the day.

In reply to Coel Hellier:


Surely his solo on sight ascent of Cave Arete Indirect (E1 5b) at Laddow in 1916, was even more remarkable. Much harder than High Neb Buttress. (I think it's full weight 5b, too.)

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


Not so sure. It's steep and juggy and the hard bit is fairly low down (easy to go up, play, come down again). Yes it is technically harder but far less dependent on good footwear.

In reply to andy farnell:



This was the 1st thing I thought of when I looked at this thread. I was at Kilnsey earlier this year and mentioned to someone how impressive Simons ascent of Urgent Action & The Groove were back in the day, to then be asked "who is Simon Nadin?"

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Surely the story with both of Berg’s ascents was that he stole the FA from Kelly, who was intending to make them. They can’t have been that jaw-dropping if all they were was one climber making the first ascent of a new hard route rather than another, surely?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

The photo of Jon Redhead's ascent of a cooling tower made my jaw drop.

In reply to Shani:


Was he wearing his ginormous papier mache cock at the Time?

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Anything I have climbed by any method is by definition almost as far from worldwide impressive as could be. If that's wisdom, so be it. Low angle British slabs are pretty easy compared to the US. I've climbed quite a few harder 5.9's in the US than Sex Dwarves and at Joshua Tree even Sniveling might only be equivalent to a 5.9 sandbag on an obscure crag.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Yet, did anyone else really know how impressive Gill's ascent of The Thimble was at the time? As a trad route it has to be the easily the biggest international increase in difficulty but then again he was just pushing the boldness limits of his bouldering!

Rock and Ice were big steps for the UK but just catching up with east European sandstone tower standards.

What was that mad thing Crowley did? Doesn't that eclipse Berg? People forget modern grades dont really match how hard climbs were in the early decades of the 1900's

In reply to Offwidth:

Getting rescued off Ethelreda's Pinnacle is far from the most stunning moment in British rock-climbing history!

I suspect the Thimble created very little splash at the time. Likewise Pete Cleveland or Jim Holloway's finest achievements. Some climbers are like that.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


Yes, he pipped Kelly to the post, but there is surely considerable doubt that Kelly would have been able to climb them. He was a great pioneer, and one of the first to move out onto exposed buttresses after the 'Gully Period'. But he never put up new routes harder than Hard Severe (his greatest achievements being Tophet Wall and Moss Ghyll Grooves, but very bold for their time.) It seems a bit unfair to say that people stole his routes when he was well-known for pointing people at problems he'd spotted or tried (Kelly's Overhang being a prime example.) Frank Elliott, whom I met in doing my Peak climbing researches, had met Kelly quite a few times at Stanage - yes, I've met a man who met Kelly - and he described him very much in this way, of being very helpful and pointing him at things, but he himself doing very little … 'he was just pottering around, really'. When Elliott knew him he was already in his 50s, and in 1916 (at time of Berg) he was already 32.

It seems that the two best UK-based climbers, technically, of the Edwardian era were Berg and Herford (who climbed several routes now graded HVS). Mind you, Berg was only here for two years, and then returned to Oslo … and vanished without a trace. The story, as recounted by Byne, is that Kelly congratulated Berg when he found he'd just soloed the Crack and the Arete. He repeated the Crack - which he admitted he found desperate - but did not attempt to repeat the arete.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Leo/Patch's exploits in Yosemite the first time they went out stand out for me - The American folk I was climbing with were pretty dismissive of them achieving anything, so reading the reports of them doing the Huber's stuff was a "Nice one!" moment as you forget how young they were.
Also Dawes/Pritchard on the Strone Nose - a similar idea of going for it - the description in Deep Play of the rope snapping on the top roof still freaks me out!
Martin Crocker on the DWS stuff on Ogmore with his arm bands - a quality WTF? moment alongside Dave Thomas on Caveman.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Yes, agreed - 'stole' was shorthand.

I think Coel might be right that HNB was harder by the standards of the day. Wonder who first repeated that - does history record? I'd imagine it was fairly routine by the mid-20s?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:



I have no record of it, but I'm sure Pigott and Morley Wood would have done it. One thing most of the pioneers, or descendants of pioneers (like Geoff Pigott) that I met, stressed, was just how few climbers were around - partly because all the edges were banned and heavily keepered, but also of course the huge death toll of the Great War (Morley Wood and Pigott were survivors of the trenches, and Kelly a conscientious objector). Then people like Hargreaves, Elliott, Dover, Kirkus and Byne would have done it, I suppose.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


In the case of the Laddow routes, Kelly had already top-roped them and went to the crag only to find that Berg had already climbed the first (the crack) the evening before (not first thing in the morning, as was always reported).

He repeated one of the routes immediately, but I'd have to re-read his diaries to confirm if he did both.

Kelly's Overhang is an interesting one (we've discussed this previously!). The late John Loy met Kelly apparently in 1957, and asked him about the route, and whether he'd actually tried it. Kelly said that yes he had tried it and that 'in those days routes were first climbed downwards.'

Having said that, I have scoured Kelly's diaries from start to finish and can find no mention of any upward or downward attempts on this line.

It's interesting to remember that the first ascent of Kelly's overhang was always doubted and it's lack of inclusion in a couple of guidebooks does add to the mystery here.

In reply to BlownAway:

Thanks for this, Phil.

That's very interesting about Kelly down-climbing or scoping KO downwards (presumably on a top rope). Certainly Geoff Pigott wasn't sure but thought (he couldn't remember exactly) that his father believed Kelly had tried it on a top rope (implication being that his father never saw Kelly on it), but it's just possible that all he'd done was spot it, and talk about it, and at most had had a rather unsuccessful attempt at it. The reason that Kelly's Overhang dropped out of the history books is that, before the days of guidebooks, it had got two different names - some calling it Inaccessible Buttress and some calling it - a climber's nickname really, Kelly's Overhang (but that name didn't seem to get into print until much later). Geoff Pigott had little doubt that his father and Morley Wood had done KO, and that MW had led it. The famous two photographs imply very strongly that on that occasion Morley Wood led it and a few minutes later Pigott seconded him. The lighting is virtually identical - the shadows have scarcely lengthened.

Further reasoning: in the first picture Morley Wood is doing the first committing dynamic moves onto the block, with one of his double ropes flicked over the block for protection. If he had then tried the crux and bottled out I think it would actually have been quite tricky to lower him (very sharp edge, huge amount of friction etc.). Then what? Morley Wood goes round the to the top and arranges a top rope? I suspect all that would have taken longer than the pictures imply - and is quite a complicated way of explaining the two successive frames. The way Morley is climbing certainly looks very committed and determined.

Geoff Pigott emphasised just what a good technical climber MW was, and they could easily have practised it several times on a top rope to really learn the moves. One problem was that Fred Pigott didn't keep detailed log-book type diaries and only sporadic records of his climbs. So there will never be a definitive answer i suppose .. to this little mystery ..!

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

The answers may well be in the book, but why is it a mystery? Fred P was there and told people what happened - that's as much evidence as we have for most ascents of that time, isn't it?

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Well, for the reasons Phil gives - the way it was not mentioned in any journal or guidebook for many years. But, personally, I am not a doubter.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I don't know anything about pre-WW2 guides. It's in the pink one my father had, I think, complete with the photo. Do we know what happened to make them put it in, or how pre-war routes were claimed and got in to guidebooks?

jcm

For me its Harold Raeburn at the turn of the century climbing Green Gully on Ben Nevis

This was so ahead of its time, in terms of gear/difficulty, that it wasnt recognised properly until many years after

In reply to Offwidth:


Ah, I was simply commenting on Jon Read's remark apropos of the FA of Wall of Horrors, 'to commit to that when he did was miles ahead of the rest of the world at that time, except perhaps for slightly earlier stuff in eastern europe?'

I'm sure few people knew about Gill's ascents until many years later. But, despite falling outside Jon's parameter, not mentioning them somewhere on this thread would surely be churlish.

Mick

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

It was a mixture of grapevine and collating info from various journals, which would contain articles that amounted to mini guidebooks on crags. Some (like Laycock's) were real journals. I lot of material had been successfully collated for the first Stanage (and district?) guidebook just before the war, then, very famously, the printing factory where the manuscript was lodged was bombed and it was all lost. Byne had a huge job pulling the material together again, and some information was probably never retrieved.

The Laddow book dating from just before the war was a lovely guide, however - I think the best then existing in the Peak.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


To be fair, there *weren't* any guidebooks to Stanage for years, partly for the reason Gordon provides above.

What struck me as interesting was that the 1951 Stanage guide had a photo of Wood on Kelly's Overhang, and the route was described, but it wasn't mentioned in the historical section. For such a route to be overlooked, even tho it was first climbed 25 years earlier, was a bit strange.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

For me it'd be ascents that were ahead of their time, probably the best known of which would be Mr Dawes on Indian face.

In reply to Chris the Tall:


I was thinking of that; or Indian Face.

In reply to Ramblin dave:

It's what inspired Smiler and me to do it some 17 years later. Anyone any idea if it had been repeated since Brown and Whillans (Brits that is).

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

For its day, I would choose Alan Rouse's onsight solo of The Boldest on Cloggy as the most stunning, possibly together with Johnny's Indian Face, if I am allowed 2 shots at the title.
Both on the same crag as well !

In reply to davidw3:

The Boldest was the highlight of a lot of soloing round about that time, wasn't it? Whether that makes it more or less striking is hard to say.

jcm

In reply to davidw3:


Apparently Al was bricking it on the crux. Pretty outrageous thing to do at the time though, given the route's reputation.

I managed to get both hands crossed on the crux; the only time this has ever happened to me. The acid riposte from my Scouse mate, "Good thing you're not soloing..." Ouch!

Mick