UKC

I would be grateful of any thoughts on the pro´s and con´s of using an Italian/Munter hitch to lower down a climber so they can extract a friend, jammed into a crack. This happed at the weekend and soon we might go and try and extact it.

The story is that my climbing partner hung on some placed gear to get up the final pitch of a hardish semi-bolted route in the dark. As a result he jammmed in a BD cam, which I couldn´t remove seconding. So we might walk up to the top of the route soon and "get down" to where the friend is (if still there) and try hardeer to extract it. I assume he will descend down.
The belays and summit belay are all bolted up.

I have used the Italian hitch a few times, once to lower an injured climber down a few pitches on a sport route. In that last instance it worked fine, so I would be inclined to use it here too. Furthermore, since as I understand it, this knot works both for lowering and bringing up, it would seem more practical to use it in this case, more than say my mate abseiling down and then ascending back up.

In addition, I´ve have also seen that you can back it up with a prussic linked to your harness,, to guard against letting go of the rope etc. I have not backed it up on previous occasions (sorry!), so I would also be grateful of any thoughts on this as a possible backup system for it and using it unbacked-up.

This is possibly all a bit academic because I think he will prefer to abseil down anyay. But like I say, any thoughts on the best method would be welcome. Finally, one possible issue could be the bolts on the summit belay being low down, so I could be difficult to set up the Italian hitch at waist/chest height. This might make an abseil a bit more practical in fact ?

In reply to th1:

Personally i would prefer to lower myself using a prussic to keep me in place while cam wrestling. but then i hate being lowered.

In reply to th1:

Well, you could do. used in caving all the time.

But why not just use a belay plate as normal?

In reply to Oceanrower:

yes, but forgive my ignorance but isnt a belay plate different in lowering mode to bringing up mode, but with the Italian it is the same,

got to go back to work now, later I will check in to any replies thanks,

In reply to th1:

Surely no different to bringing up a second. Which, if you've climbed it before, you've already done.

In reply to th1:

you need to be below an IH for it to work properly so as you say in last para may not be suitable.

most people hate been lowered, much prefer to ab down use prussic and tie a knot when stopping to get gear out (or use a leg wrap) to back up prussic. Then he can ab to the floor

If top pitch of a multi pitch you could lower and climb out as suggested.
I wouldnt put a prussic backup on harness, you could put one on the belay when lowering
(esp if he was really heavy). Tie off the IH whilst he is getting the gear,

In reply to th1:

Its probably easier to lower off an Italian hitch than a belay plate and yes you can bring people up on that too - I've done so when I got to a crag to find we didn't have a belay plate between the two of us!

I read somewhere it can put a kink in the rope but I haven't experienced this.

In reply to Oceanrower:



Because if it's likely to be a protracted job a well set up italian hitch will be easier to use?

In reply to th1:

My gosh. How long has your friend been stuck in a crack. I'd don't suppose he cares how you lower someone off to help him extract himself.

In reply to th1:


It is different if by 'bringing up mode' you mean autoblocking like a guide plate as you might do, for example, in bringing up two seconds. youtube.com/watch?v=KM5c9wlTReo&

Else, if by 'bringing up mode' you mean a setup just like belaying a leader with a belay plate then there is no difference.

One thing to keep in mind is that with a Munter Hitch the brake strand is in friction mode when parallel to the load strand. With a belay plate the brake strand should be behind the belay plate.

In reply to lithos:


I'm afraid that's just not true. In fact its one of the great things about an Italian hitch - the hitch will invert and still grab the rope.

In reply to mp3ferret:

what ? its not about inverting its about the angle of the braking rope,
the load rope will be down and the brake rope up,
doesn't work properly/as well in that configuration in my experience
as it will only have a single turn around the krab, and hence less friction

??

In reply to lithos:

Sounds good to me, so long as you are below the hitch. Attach yourself to the belay point, set up the hitch so it is above you, lower your friend down and tie it off. Quick, simple and very easy to release.

In reply to th1:

I'd prefer to abseil with a prussic, tie a knot when you stop too. Advantage over lowering is you can stop exactly where you need to, multiple times, and you have a backup of sorts. If you haven't got a prussic or prefer to be lowered a munter hitch/Italian whatever you want to call it will work too.

Whatever you do make sure the anchors are sound and try and test everything before you go near the edge. It's easy to forget something, believe me.

In reply to th1:

If access to the top of the crag (which crag is it btw?) is easy enough why don't you just take a friend, build a belay and ab in with a prussic so you can stop at the required height? then get your partner to derig your belay once you've got to the bottom and they can then just walk off. If there's a chain on the belays already, you wouldn't even need a partner. Unless I'm reading what you intend to do wrong?

In reply to lithos:





IME it works very well as an emergency abseil arrangement as long as you keep the rope clear of the gate.

You don't lose a complete turn round the krab, you actually lose the friction from less than half a turn round the radius of the bar of the krab but retain all the friction of rope on rope.

In reply to timjones:

without going way off thread - yeah i agree but when abbing on IH you have control of the
brake rope angle more than if lowering off an IH when its below you
(i said properly not that it wouldn't work at all but its not the advice i'd be giving out on the interweb)

In reply to lithos:

Sorry another thread hijack. Its not just me giving out this advice :

The Munter is easily tied, with the knot being tested by simply pulling on either strand of the rope which will cause the hitch to reverse itself yet still work.

Taken from http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/articles/view/the_munter_hitch_italian_hitc...

In my experience a reversed munter still has more than enough friction to be able to hold a second.

In reply to mp3ferret:

ok well i just read that and it supports what i am saying ....
* final sentence of the opening para
* whole of 3rd para,
* opening sentence 4th para

In reply to neilwiltshire:

I have found this to be the case both for belay devices I have used in direct and indirect mode, hence I have always opted for an Italian hitch in those situations, but perhaps I am not utilising my device fully (BD guide).

In reply to th1:

One thing I have learnt from this thread is that if I do end up lowering my mate down with an Italian hitch set up, I will drop down a bit below the bolts at the summit "just in case". This is possible as it finishes on easyish ground.

In reply to th1:

And another thing,
TBH I must say that if it was my piece of gear, I would just leave it there jammed in, in this case of it being jammed in on the last pitch of a big multipitch.
I err on the side of "putting it down to experience" and kind of leaving it as an offer to the rock climbing gods, so to speak. My mate may well feel the same way anyway.

But thanks to all for the advice.

In reply to th1:
the crag is Leiva, Sierra Espuña, Spain.

In reply to th1:

>with an Italian hitch set up, I will drop down a bit below the bolts at the summit

yea i would, and be attached ! (i'd tie into the end of the rope and clove hitch into the anchor as if you had just climbed it).

worth retrieving the gear just to clean up the route as well, good luck, stay safe

In reply to lithos:

yes of course I would probably do it very similar to what you suggest,
thanks,

re "cleaning up the route" as in removing rubbish, true yes that´s something to think about,

but in this case, extracting it could actualy involve chipping
away the rock either a tiny bit or quite a bit. I have offered to help my mate get it out as I was an acomplice to it being his second on this pitch. So I was just after checking the correct procedure for it all, to be as safe as possible. But if up to me, I think I would err on just leaving it.

In reply to th1:


Oh dear. You will now burn in UKC hell.

In reply to th1:
Im tempted to Reach for a score out of 10. But to give Benefit of the doubt.

If the cam has walked too far into the Crack to Reach the puller, dont chip the rock away whatever you do (unless its in Tintern quarry, then, meh 7;^)

You can usually Reach the puller with a couple of wires, or Better still, fashion a trigger puller out of a stiff wire coathanger.

In reply to Choss:

i was going to give a score too but I'm still not sure. Seems convincing and has replied a few times but the last one went a bit far....

In reply to Choss:

ha ha, yeh, there was a bit of a troll feel to my post perhaps, as I am asking about something I more or less know the answer to, more like I was asking for thoughts on it, just to make sure,

I guess the "chipping" comment was a bit of a throwaway response. I will take on board what your advice on good cam removal, though it did seem very overcammed when I tried to remove it as a second and its one of those smallish ones. I´m not a big user of cams/friends on vertical cracks like this particular one, as I am more of a wire/nut passive gear placer, hope I dont got to UKC hell again for saying that, ooops another throwaway comment

In reply to th1:

No you might have found redemption with that Comment, new fangled cams are the devils work 7;^)

However you do it, dont forget stopper Knots in rope ends. Sure thats Advice to the wise anyway.

might be worth naming crag, route, and Pitch. Somebody might even have Retrieved it by now. keep an eye on the lost and found section as well.

In reply to Choss:

Thanks,
I just thought I´d state after reading the replies that it was a bit of a hypothetical question I asked, since for one reason or another we might or might not go up and get it.
Suppose it would of been better if I´d just say that.

I won´t say exactly where it is as I too embarressed already !

In reply to th1:

sorry, I "am" too embarressed already,

In reply to th1:

Nothing to be Embarrassed about.

Youve got Better Chance of getting it Back if people Know where it is. Happens all the Time on here.

In reply to Choss:

true, and "it is Christmas" I suppose

it´s mid way up the final pitch of De Los Hermanos, Leiva, Sierra Espuña, Spain.

In reply to th1:

I would allways lower someone on a munter with them backed up on the belay plate. Not convinced by useing a prussik as back up.

bolt in the wrong place is annoying, perhaps easier tp move yourself.

In reply to th1:
I'm a continent away, but still I'd say absolutely do not chip at the rock to remove a cam. You should leave it if you can't get it by ordinary means. Sometimes they loosen---for example if it gets cold there might be a slight contraction of the metal that is enough to free up the cam---and sometimes someone else can get it out. I've heard about a few cases in which lubricating the cam surfaces has seemed to make all the difference. No oil or WD 40 please, just spit will do.

Since you've proclaimed yourself something of a cam novice, I'll presume to give some more removal advice beyond rigging nuts and/or slings to pull on an inaccessible trigger bar. Often the secret to badly overcammed pieces is to manipulate the cams with a nut tool. The reason is that you can compress a cam a tiny bit more manually than you can with the trigger mechanism.

So you get in there with your nut tool, retract one of the cams as far as you can get it, which should be a little more than the trigger will do, and as you do this, try to pivot the cam so that the side you are manipulating comes a little closer to the edge of the crack. Switch cams (on the same side) and try again, and then switch sides and try the same process on the two cams on the other side. Of course, try to keep the trigger retracted for whatever help it will give. One way to do this is to put wired nuts over each end of the trigger bar, clip them to your harness, and weight them. (Sometimes this by itself is enough to extract the cam.)

Progress is going to be measured in millimeters, so patience and a willingness to keep at it will be required.

In reply to rgold:

Yes, thanks for more advice re cam removal. Interesting. I think the problem here was that the cam was ratting about a bit in a tiny hollow inside a thin crack, more like what can happen to nuts sometimes. Mate mate eventually got it out, using a couple of nut keys I think.

In reply to th1:

First things first, if you're not sure what you're doing then don't do it, it's only £30 and may even be gone already. Sorry if this seems rude but you do appear to be asking pretty basic questions in an odd manner - could just be a language barrier?

Assuming it's possible and safe to walk to the top belay I'd ab for the gear then on to the floor.

If the route is long then I'd still ab in to do the work then climb out belayed from above (assuming you can rig that safely for both parties).

I may also consider self belaying out up the ab rope but I wouldn't suggest it unless you are familiar with safe techniques.

jk

In reply to alasdair19:
and Lithos:

Used the Italian hitch in the end (backed up with a prussic to my harness and with me clove hitched to both bolts on the rope a few meters down). My mate didnt fancy ascending back up as I expected. I had used the IH a lot before, though I couldn´t remember the last time I used it to bring someone up. I also found this(easily) www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-TJD0d8mtE.

Thinking about why I asked the question on this thread, I realize now that I wanted to feel more confident in my choice of using the IH, to see if it would also be the choice of some other climbers too in a similar position.

I think this was worth it because my mate wanted me to use his gri gri, and then his reverso in indirect mode to lower him down, but I stood my ground and said I prefered the IH and in the end I think he was impressed with the way a simple knot did the job of lowering him down and bringing him up and did it pretty well. Asking more anonymously on the internet has the bonus of not appearing in front of your mates seeming like you don´t completely know what you are doing, which ok is perhaps trivial but hey.

In reply to th1:

glad it all went ok pretty good video.

In reply to jkarran:

Nah, I know what you mean. If it was my gear I´d just repeat the route "at some point" and see if it was still there, which is akin to just leaving it.

And like I said earlier, I wasnt totally "sure" about how I´d lower him down, if requested. But after chatting a bit on this thread I got reasured that it was fine to do it "my" way.

It isnt a language barrier honestly, I just thought I´d risk appearing a bit amateurish on ukc for the sake of making sure I was confident about what I was doing, as I could see that it was one of those situations that could get out of control if I wasnt.