UKC

When climbing long multi pitch routes does leading in blocks offer significant advantages over alternating leads, or is it horses for courses?

cheers

In reply to WB:

Do you mean running pitches together, or leading several pitches one after the other?

The first one can speed you up in some cases, but isn't always a good idea if the route meanders around. The second is slower unless there is a bunch of hard pitches and one climber is stronger than the other.

In reply to davidbeynon:

I meant leading several pitches one after the other. I can see the advantage of running pitches together, when feasible.

cheers

In reply to WB:

Depends on ability/confidence and so on but if these are equal for both climbers then alternate leads is the most efficient method. Much less faffing about with changing belays and swapping gear and so on.

In reply to WB:

I think you need to be on REALLY big routes before the advantages kick in much, nothing in the UK is anywhere near that big.

In reply to TobyA:

How big are you talking and what are the advantages? Say I was thinking greater than 16 pitches, and similar ability.

In reply to WB:

Block leading is pretty quick if your belayer is clued up on what to do at the belay with the ropes and gear but I think each method can be as slow as each other if you and your partner have crap belay/rope management

In reply to WB:




Block leading
Climb - Rest - Climb - Rest

Swinging Leads
Climb - Climb - Rest - Rest

In reply to WB:

Like the Slovak Direct on Denali big!

I did a 13 pitch route this summer (and proper 40+ mtr pitches not UK Victorian pitches for 40 ft). We did the first 9 pitches alternatively, but by the headwall pitches my friends not so long ago injured back was twinging so he asked me to lead those. So in effect I 'block led' the last 3 proper ones (the 4th was really just a scramble). I don't think either way was faster than the other.

On massive alpine routes people seem to talk about block leading as a psychological rest for the second more than anything else. On nice solid routes in the sun, not sure how important that is?

Any tips for rope management when block leading? Have heard of technique for racking the dead rope over the tie in and then "flipping" it onto the second's tie in. Anyone tried this?

In reply to thedatastream:

I just run the rope(s) through. It takes 2 minutes and flipping the coils could potentially cost you 10 minutes if you get in a nasty tangle! I did try 'flipping' once while dangling from a door frame watching TV and it seemed pretty hit or miss

In reply to WB:

With a little practice taking in the rope, storing neatly and arranging / flipping the rope is very quick and easy especially if using an assisted belay device like a reverso. I have found for longer routes (10 + pitches) block leading saves me time.
However, I think it is whatever works for you and can also be what works for you on the particular day.

Some possible advantages of block leading:
1) Quick gear swaps at stance ( not swapping most of rack each pitch )
2) Leader can hopefully suss out next pitch while bringing up second and then shoot straight on up without having to explain the route to second
3) As stated before, you climb, rest, climb, rest
4) You can psyche up for several pitches of leading followed by several pitches of only seconding
5) Blocks could be chosen for preferred climbing style ( if route is varied ) for example one may tackle the slabs, another steep cracks etc.
6) On some routes the second may be carrying a shared rucksack which is swapped less often.

In reply to Mark / Alps:

Well said... its a little worrying more people can't see this. Block leads are a common for equal experienced pairs moving fast on long routes. Maybe its a UK-centric bumbly thing (I guess my visits to the states overide my bumbly status)

In reply to Offwidth:

A little worrying people can't see what? Mark/Alp has listed some benefits, but nothing that has overwhelmingly persuaded me that leading in blocks is significantly better than swinging leads. Sounds more like there are good situations to apply both techniques, and to choose the most appropriate, but I wouldn't call it worrying.

In reply to WB:

I like block leading for long routes where you need to move fast.

1: If the pitches are hard enough to get you really pumped, you'll get a proper rest between pitches.
2: If the pitches are easy enough to just flow up, you can really climb hard and fast on each pitch, knowing that you'll get a decent rest before the next one

As for dealing with the rope, it takes practice to 'flip the pile' effectively, but it can be done. Definitely easier with a single rope than doubles. For the ultimate in speed though, I like to clip in rather than tie in, then you can just exchange ends at the belay. This assumes you have set up with a cordalette or slings. And that you are aware of the potential dangers! (using two krabs back to back is important)

I think that block leading can work well and can be faster in some circumstances when into 15+ pitch routes. As Mark /Alps said above, it is actually quicker in general at the stance if you only have to take back a few pieces of gear, may well be easier logistically with sac carrying, and you might get into the groove leading a particular style of climbing. You may find one of the team is more tired for whatever reason and want a longer break.

Isn't the key to be flexible and see what suits best on the day?
I recall one particular long alpine route I did a long while ago; we battled up a steep body width chimney for half a dozen long pitches, my partner "accidentally" took the brunt of this in terms of getting the physically toughest pitches, so when the angle eased I block led a series of slab pitches which played more to my strengths and gave him a break.

In reply to WB:

Depends on the route and what pitches each of you want to lead. Presume you're talking about lots of pitches rather than UK routes?

In reply to metal arms:




It's the leading that's taxing though. A better way to think of it would be:

Block leading: Climb, Climb, Climb, Rest, Rest, Rest
Alt. leads: Climb, Rest, Climb, Rest, Climb, Rest

In reply to Michael Gordon:

You could more accurately describe it as (assuming each pitch is 20 minutes to lead, 10 minutes to second):

Block
(20 min lead, 10 min rest) x 3, (20 min rest, 10 min second) x 3
Alt leads
(10 min second, 20 min lead, 30 min rest) x 3

I can see advantages of both. As you say, block leading spreads out your climbing more (you don't have to lead immediately after seconding, you get more frequent if shorter breaks) whereas alternate leading spreads out your leading more (you have to lead immediately after seconding but you get a long rest before you do it again).

In reply to andrewmcleod:

I think alt. leads has the advantage that you can warm up again while seconding, ready for the next lead. Of course if you're doing it in the times you've given then block leads will be more for efficiency (not much gear placed on each pitch?) than for reasons of easing strain.

In reply to WB:

American climbers seem to be keen on block leading. We climbed in 4 pitch blocks. I quite liked it as it gives you a while to relax as a second before putting the lead hat back on

In reply to WB:

I tend to quite like using both ropes in the belay, which when block leading is a disadvantage (read, massive ballache) to then have to lead the next pitch.

In reply to thedatastream:


Using cordellettes rather than tying in to the belay anchors with the ropes makes the rope management much easier.

I've used several methods of swapping the rope around, and to be honest I've found the easiest to be just for each climber to untie and swap ends of the rope.

For hanging belays or small stances, a rope hook makes things much easier, but is by no means essential.

In reply to WB:

I like block leading because it keeps me in the lead mindset. Don't have to keep swapping between lead + second mindsets.

In reply to WB:

Andy K and I cover the logic reasonably well in our book on mutlipitch (http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/shop/product/high)

In summary.
A block need not be a number of pitches, it can be an amount of time, or a number of single pitch routes. This can make for less tension in an unbalanced team. i.e. you lead for two hours, then I lead for two hours. If you are better than me then we get the same amount of time leading, but you get to feed your rat with more rock.

Many long routes have long sections of easy climbing, this can also mean that it might be worth splitting the climb into blocks: I take the first 6 pitches of easy slabs, then you take the 3 pitches on the hard headwall.

Changeover time will depend on if it is trad or bolted, but it is much more important to be good at sorting yourself out at the belays than whether you alternate or block or how you tie in. E.g. a well organised pair leading in blocks and tying into the anchors with the rope will be much quicker at the belays than a disorganised pair alternating and using a cordelette. Organisation is key, not the method.

If you are simul-climbing with a mini-traxion, you will be leading in blocks at least until you run out of gear.

If the pitches are long and use most of the rack and the second arrives with the cleaned pieces already well organised on her harness, it can make sense that she leads through. If she arrives with a complete mess on her cleaning sling, then it doesn't matter who leads the next pitch.

If the pitch uses few pieces, then it can make sense that blocks are used, as the leader will still have most of the gear on her harness. An example might be a bold slab pitch followed by a crack pitch.

Blocks allow short fixing.

Being in the zone. This can important when moving fast, but it will not be quicker if blocks mean you end up sending the weakest climber up the difficult runout off-width.

Climbing in a three. Normally long blocks makes sense (in the UK the whole route), as unless you really know what you are doing swapping over will be a pain.

Hope that helps.

In reply to WB:

One tactic for climbing big routes quickly is for the second to jumar carrying the sack. The second can wear trainers or even boots if crampons will be required higher up. This reduces the overall number of shoes that need to be carried by the team. Also while the second jugs, ther leader can start the next pitch self belaying, or can have a quick nap. Blocks work really well for this style of climbing.

Cheers, Ross.