UKC

I've just bought a set of black diamond ice screws - but have not used them before. What I was wondering was how good are they at holding a leader fall - assuming of course a good placement. Which then brings me to my second question - how easy is it to determine the quality of an ice screw placement.

In reply to JasonV: http://www.needlesports.com/catalogue/content.aspx?con_id=095232e4-4caf-49e...

Worth a read

In reply to JasonV:

http://ravenrescue.com/blog/ice-screw-pull-tests-march-2013

In terms of knowing if a placement is good or not if the screw wobbles this is definitely not good! if it feels solid it probably is

In reply to JasonV:

And from this site- http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=4315

In reply to JasonV:
This is a worthwhile video as well, that has been on UKC previously
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7z2t1_ice-anchor-workshop_sport

In reply to Oli_31:

Wow!! interesting results there, particularly like this..

"Test one failed as we actually ended up pulling our anchor (my jeep) towards the screw. We back tied the jeep for all subsequent tests."

In reply to JasonV:

That links really good. Basically in good ice there as good as any gear and in general you can tell whats good by a common sence judgement. Thick, non-aerated, not melting and not isolated. Still I wouldn't recommend falling off in winter!

In reply to JasonV:

When leading on ice I tend to see screws as protection that may save my life, but probably won't save me from injury. Funnily enough this acts as quite good protection in itself, as it helps deter me from falling, or getting onto ground where I'll be too close to the limit.

In reply to JasonV:

Screws do hold, a guy I was climbing with in Canada took a lob on one.

I once read an article, basically screws are for retreating from. When you climb and you feel scared, place a screw, if you feel better continue to you feel scared again, place another, repeat process until completed pitch.

If after placing screw, you still feel in over your head, retreat from screw!

This is how I approach climbing steep ice (and I have never fallen on one)!

Stuart

In reply to JasonV:

Cheers guys - I guess the take home message is don't fall off when climbing on ice!

I read some tests last year which state that screws are also often just as good if you place them in old screw holes. This can save a lot of time and effort on popular routes.

Finally, if anyone is new to the ice game, this blog post should help you adjust your mindset!
http://gravsports.blogspot.co.uk/2011/03/ice-climbing-is-not-rock-climbing....

In reply to JasonV:

As long as you place them properly they are very secure . When you place a screw you can tell right away if it's gone in well. Myself and friends I climb with have all had big falls on ice and the ice screws have always held up perfectly well. The black diamond turbo express are also the best I have personally used. If you get end up on shit ice and can't back a retreat take a rock climbing approach and put extra in anyway as any protection is better than none. Good luck !

In reply to JimLake:


Go on then... tell us the story!

In reply to Dan Arkle:

That video link is amazing - quite a few points to pick up on there! Looks like a screw will hold quite a substantial fall but it's then the issue of flipping over and hitting the ice with your tools and crampons flailing all over the place.

In reply to JasonV: Whilst there are some good suggestions and interesting links in the replies so far, I'd suggest that getting someone who knows what they're doing to go with you to some real ice and show you some skills around ice climbing, including screw placement, would be a good idea.

In reply to AdrianC:

I've seen two long falls on to a single ice screw: Professor falls, Canadian Rockies, solid ice - an italian climber was on his way up the right hand fringe, very steep that year. He hit the ice hard close to his existing placement and a big dinner plate came off. He fell 35ft, no injury. Seven years ago I was holding the ropes for someone on Cascade, Ben Nevis. He had six screws in, well spaced, and was nearly at the belay. Something went wrong and he took a 60 footer, permanently stretching my Beal Ice Line. After I recovered the screws I couldn't tell which one had held him! They were BD turbo express. Cheers......Jeff

In reply to JasonV:

Hi,

I had a leader fall today when climbing in Norway. Ice screw held and force of my fall lifted my belayer. Was probably two metres past the screw when I fell.

Screws are solid when placed in quality ice.

In reply to Nevis_Ben:

2nd that, when placed in quality ice, the screw will hold. I've held two leader falls until now, both went fine.

On the other hand a friend of mine once had a fall where 4 screws came out...

In reply to JasonV:

I think it would be a mistake to encourage a culture of acceptance with regards to falling on screws.

In reply to Jamie B:

I sort of agree Jamie. The last thing I had in my mind was falling while leading on my ice route, especially as the risk of serious injury is much increased when taking leader falls on ice. Naturally I climbed and placed my pro the best I could and fortunately when I did take my unplanned fall everything operated and held as it should.

I think climbers should learn to place their screws correctly and have confidence that the ice and screw will hold but also understand the golden rule of 'just don't fall off'. Doesn't always happen though!

In reply to Nevis_Ben:

Totally agree. Although I'm sure that it will hold in good ice, I would never do things as I would sometimes do in sport climbing. Have climbed for about 7 or 8 years on ice now, never fell and never intend to.

But sometimes believing in that last point can give you the mental advantage to do the move...

In reply to Dan Arkle:



Good shout

In reply to AdrianC:


100% correct

In reply to JasonV:

One might not stop you but 2 or 3 should.....screamers help :p

In reply to Dan Arkle:

Interesting read and video. I'm sure it's been brought up in another forum when the video was first released but why didn't he place another screw before the final steep section? Rock climbing mentality would tell me that if I was going to attempt a harder section I'd want to stick something in before I attempt it where possible.

Back to the OPs question, I had my first proper ice climbing trip a couple of weeks ago in Cogne (before I had climbed a little bit of ice in Scotland and the Lake District). I read up on screw placements and blogs where people talk about different types of ice (bullet hard, cottage cheese, gluey etc.) but it only really made sense when I could experience it for myself. I didn't go with a more experienced partner, so we took it steady at first and learnt a lot on the way.

David