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Arthur Birtwistle

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rob sykes 06 Jan 2014
Having read Jim Perrin's obituary to the late Arthur Birtwistle here:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/24/arthur-birtwistle

I'd like to discover more about him and his life. I've had a cursory search on Google but can't find much. Can anyone provide any further leads?

Many thanks in advance.
 Dave Garnett 06 Jan 2014
In reply to rob sykes:

I'm not much of a climbing historian but Birtwistle's ascents in 1938 have always stuck in my mind as real milestones. I have to say I had just assumed he'd died decades ago but it seems he had a very long and eventful life indeed.

Come to that, I wasn't sure that Jim Perrin was still with us, so that's welcome news too.
 jonny taylor 06 Jan 2014
In reply to rob sykes:

"He reconnoitred the battlefields of El Alamein, was decorated, promoted to captain, then almost demoted again after provoking a diplomatic incident by climbing the pyramids at Giza"

Interesting guy!
 Phil Kelly 06 Jan 2014
In reply to rob sykes:

I interviewed Arthur a couple of years ago as part of the research into Peak Rock. Gordon Stainforth also interviewed him a few years previously.

That obituary is interesting from a couple of points. Bury is my home town, and Arthur and I talked at length about it, and the school he went to. He lived on Ainsworth Road, and gave me the distinct impression he went to (what was to become) the Wellington secondary school rather than Bury Grammar School (which myself and Gaz Parry both went to!).

It's clear from Perrin's writing that he hasn't climbed in Lancashire all that much:

> Those two disciplines prepared him well for a climbing career that began in Holcombe Hill quarries, near Bury, still a popular venue with northern rock-addicts.

These 'Holcombe Hill quarries' are actually Harcles Hill quarry, or Postman's Head as Arthur called it (you'll know why if you've been there), but they are the last place on earth one would describe as a popular venue.

One thing that Perrin left out was that Arthur developed Cadshaw Rocks together with Allan Allsopp ("honours were about 50/50") and also made frequent bicycle trips out from Bury to Cow's Mouth Quarry and Blackstone Edge, although no records were kept.

It was a real pleasure meeting Arthur and discussing our old haunts together.


In reply to rob sykes:

Here's the interview I did with Arthur Birtwistle in 1997. Tidied up and edited a bit. Not very long, but something of his character comes across:

http://www.gordonstainforth.co.uk/pdfs/ABirtwistle%20_i:v.pdf
In reply to rob sykes:

And here's a picture I took of him on the same day:

http://www.gordonstainforth.co.uk/images/ABirtwistle1997.jpg
 Gus 06 Jan 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Brilliant! Nice one!
rob sykes 06 Jan 2014
In reply to Phil Kelly:

Hi Phil

Spooky - the reason that the obituary caught my eye was becuase I also grew up in Bury and went to Bury Grammar School (very badly bullied by Gaz Parry!). What year did you leave there?

Cheers

Rob
rob sykes 06 Jan 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Hi Gordon

Thanks for the link and the photo - will have a look at them.

Cheers

Rob
 Adam Long 06 Jan 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Great stuff Gordon, thanks for that.

Always loved this quote:

"...anyway, I’m walking along on this road as wide as this, and
bugger me there’s a couple of limestone cliffs there with some blokes with
pegs and climbing ropes on it, you know ...! [DISSOLVES INTO MIRTH]
My instinctive reaction to it was — what for!?
[FURTHER LAUGHTER]
It almost looked silly to you, did it?
Yeah! yeah ... [STILL CHUCKLING]"
 Mick Ward 06 Jan 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

What a lovely photo. Hopefully he wasn't also bullied by that dreadful Gaz Parry!

Mick
 alan moore 06 Jan 2014
In reply to rob sykes:
Birtwistle routes seem to come with a certain stamp! Diagonal and Priscillia Ridge both made everlasting impressions on me; bold in a way that is not tamed by modern protection...would love to do Pulpit Ridge one day....
 Phil Kelly 06 Jan 2014
In reply to rob sykes:

i left in 1981 i think
 biscuit 06 Jan 2014
In reply to rob sykes:

I bet Froggy knew him

Another great from the BGS alumni !
 Climbingspike 06 Jan 2014
In reply to rob sykes:
I'm so pleased you brought up this topic. At the age of 13 our school ( Seedfield secondary mod, Bury) were taken camping in Coniston. Two teachers from wellington sec mod school joined us with some of their lads. Myself and one of the welly lads were taken climbing for the day, we did Middlefell buttress then onto Gimmer and did Juniper butteress. One of the teachers was called Harry Mathews, he pointed out the line of Kipling groove, turned and said, "2nd ascent wa'n't it Arthur?", "aye something like that" he muttered in reply. I never met him again but that quiet unassuming manner from someone who had climbed such an incredible piece of rock left me impressed and inspired. Three years later I did Diagonal on Dinas Mot and I was aware the 1st ascent was by an Arthur Birtwistle but I never thought it was the same person. Over the years I have wondered about all the routes with this name on them, but now, thanks to you, Phil Kelly and Gordon Stainforth, I believe I did climb with The Arthur Bertwistle.

 Al Evans 07 Jan 2014
In reply to Mick Ward:

> What a lovely photo. Hopefully he wasn't also bullied by that dreadful Gaz Parry!

> Mick

I think Gaz should be allowed to defend himself, I can't think that nice Gaz Parry was ever a bully?
 Mick Ward 07 Jan 2014
In reply to Al Evans:

Al, I'm only teasing! Have never met him but always heard good things about him.

Mick
 Mick Ward 07 Jan 2014
In reply to Climbingspike:

> One of the teachers was called Harry Mathews, he pointed out the line of Kipling groove, turned and said, "2nd ascent wa'n't it Arthur?", "aye something like that" he muttered in reply. I never met him again but that quiet unassuming manner from someone who had climbed such an incredible piece of rock left me impressed and inspired.

Brilliant!

Mick

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Brilliant - thanks. Whatever happened to people with names like Ernest Rowboat? You don't get enough of them these days.

jcm
 Phil Kelly 07 Jan 2014
In reply to Climbingspike:
> (In reply to rob sykes)
> . Two teachers from wellington sec mod school joined us with some of their lads.

So it does sound more like the Welly rather than BGS.

> Over the years I have wondered about all the routes with this name on them, but now, thanks to you, Phil Kelly and Gordon Stainforth, I believe I did climb with The Arthur Bertwistle.

And if you ever climbed at Harcles Hill (shudder), Cow's Mouth or Blackstone Edge you'll no doubt have done other routes that he did the first ascents of.

Seedfield eh?
 Greenbanks 07 Jan 2014
In reply to rob sykes:

What a lovely thread - a genuine celebration and some fascinating insights. Much respect to the man - as stated, anyone who's been on Diagonal at the very least will realise how futuristic he was.

Thanks!
 Mick Ward 07 Jan 2014
In reply to Greenbanks:
> ...anyone who's been on Diagonal at the very least will realise how futuristic he was.

Completely agree. Even in the early 1970s, Diagonal was still a rite of passage. But to have gone up there decades earlier, with rubbish (any?) pro, not knowing how hard it would turn out to be... For all he knew, there could have been much harder (too hard?) moves. And on a first ascent - ground-up, uncleaned, bits of loose rock, grass. So often, first ascents are much harder than repeat ones. The nagging fear of the unknown... am I climbing further and further into an irreversible trap?

You look at that lovely photo of Gordon's and you sense, along with the smile, something of the mettle of the man.

Mick
Post edited at 13:02
In reply to Mick Ward:

I agree, although one could say the same about West Rib. Interesting to note he felt the first pitch was at least equally much the main event as the more celebrated traverse pitch, which was certainly my experience too. Though mind you probably the first pitch was a solo then and they felt the second pitch was comparatively safe, inasmuch as the belay on the ledge *might* save you.

Maybe it's being tall and/or modern boots (well, 1983 boots anyway), but I never even noticed the celebrated 'mantelshelf' move. I just climbed up using the holds with hands and feet on them in the conventional grasp-and-pull manner. Maybe a spot of bridging. Did anyone else notice a mantelshelf?

jcm

jcm
 David Coley 07 Jan 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I loved this bit:

"Now the other thing, I was a gymnast, and I was using chalk in the gym, on the horizontal bar. Magnesium Carbonate, the same stuff. And we never, ever thought of using it on the rock. And it was the same with the nuts and wedges. You didn’t have the sort of incentive to try to bring something new into it. I mean, climbing was you, as you are, and the rocks, and the weather. And that was it."

As someone who owns a stupid number of cams etc. and tries to protect most cracks so they are safer than sports climbs I feel totally put in my place.
 Mick Ward 07 Jan 2014
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> ...I never even noticed the celebrated 'mantelshelf' move. I just climbed up using the holds with hands and feet on them...

Almost '...with hands and feet and heart.' Très Drummondesque (as we say in Barnoldswick).

Umm... you traverse right on the second pitch, don't you, then go up a little scoop, as I seem to remember from 39 1/2 years ago. I think there was a bit of a mantleshelf somewhere around (at the top of?) the scoop. But it wasn't the grit full-on monte where you have no choice but to get stuck in. You could sort of scamper upwards.

First time around, the wind was whirling all over the face, inciting one to swift upward progress. Next time around, a few years later, with my mate Wino, after a protracted lunchtime session with Tim Lewis in The Padarn... I was totally bladdered and can't remember much at all.

We had a great afternoon though, cruising those routes on the main face. When Wino had had enough, I carried on soloing. As we were about to go, somebody came across and, very respectfully, asked, "Are you Pete Boardman?" At this, Wino cracked up and leered evilly, "Jimmy f*cking Clitheroe, more like!" The poor guy looked totally bemused. I struggled to keep a straight face.

Innocent fun - courtesy of Arthur Birtwistle's legacy to all of us.

Mick
 jfmchivall 07 Jan 2014
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> Come to that, I wasn't sure that Jim Perrin was still with us, so that's welcome news too.

He still has a column ("The Hillwalker's Library") in TGO in which each month he recommends an obscure classic of mountain literature. "Snowdon" was up for the Boardman Tasker last year. His short story "The Eyas" was on Radio 4 the other week, and can be found in the collection "A Snow Goose" which was published last year.

I'm pleased to say Perrin is very much with us
 alan moore 07 Jan 2014
In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I remember a missing mantle shelf. An easy traverse right to a poor wire, delicate and bold up a shallow groove, and then when all seemed to blank out, a giant pocket around a rib on the right gained easy ground. It was the second pitch I found hard, wobbling across a hold less traverse into a slippery groove.
Thought West Rib was easy and well protected in comparison.


 Rob Exile Ward 07 Jan 2014
In reply to alan moore:

Strange game. I remember Tony Booth telling me that yes, West Rib was poorly protected, and 'that's compared to Diagonal' ... which gave it a certain cachet.

Big incentive to go and do Diagonal again, though I shan't be repeating Drainpipe Crack on the sharp end anytime soon. Great pic, Gordon. Birtwistle - a life well lived.
 Mick Ward 07 Jan 2014
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Tony Booth, cragrat! As we were about to depart the café for Hyll Drem, I casually asked him what grade Hardd was. "HVS, isn't it?" he equally casually replied.

Hmm... Somehow it came as no surprise when my second (and third) took massive pendulums into space and I had to abb off in gathering darkness. HVS, yes...

Decades later, went back on West Rib with a 14 year old Will Perrin. The heavens opened. He shouted up, "Mick, you'll be fine!" A river washed down the slab. I was scared shitless. Will, bless him, thought it was hilarious.

Happy days.

Mick
pasbury 08 Jan 2014
In reply to jfmchivall:
> (In reply to Dave Garnett)
>
> [...]
>
> He still has a column ("The Hillwalker's Library") in TGO in which each month he recommends an obscure classic of mountain literature. "Snowdon" was up for the Boardman Tasker last year. His short story "The Eyas" was on Radio 4 the other week, and can be found in the collection "A Snow Goose" which was published last year.
>

Not to mention the Tilman & Shipton bio also published last year!
In reply to Mick Ward:

> You look at that lovely photo of Gordon's and you sense, along with the smile, something of the mettle of the man.

Yes, he had a kind of inner sparkle and a wonderful sense of humour, and was also very, very modest about what he'd done. I also remember Joe Brown's very high regard for him, making it quite clear to me that he regarded him as the best climber of his era.

Thanks for everyone else's nice comments about my photo of him (have been away)
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

>I also remember Joe Brown's very high regard for him, making it quite clear to me that he regarded him as the best climber of his era.

Big call when Jim Birkett was operating at the same time.

jcm
 Enty 08 Jan 2014
In reply to rob sykes:

Great thread - coming from Haslingden I've heard a few great tales over the years.

E
 Enty 08 Jan 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

>

> Thanks for everyone else's nice comments about my photo of him (have been away)

It's very rarely you look at a portrait and go "wow"

E
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> >I also remember Joe Brown's very high regard for him, making it quite clear to me that he regarded him as the best climber of his era.

> Big call when Jim Birkett was operating at the same time.

I think we were talking most about the very end of the 1930s, i.e. slightly earlier … I suspect Joe had a v high opinion of Birkett too, but I don't remember him coming up in conversation.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Wasn't Harlot Face done in the same year as Diagonal - 1938?

jcm
 Mark Kemball 08 Jan 2014
In reply to rob sykes:

Thank you so much for that, I was only thinking about Arthur the other day and wondering if he was still alive, tried googling unsuccessfully. I meet him a couple of times at MUMC dinners in the late 70s / early 80s. A lovely bloke, it was great to hear him talk of the first ascent of Diagonal.
rob sykes 08 Jan 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

arthur birtwistle is now definitely on my 'ultimate supper party' list.

anyone who kicks off climbing with their mum's washing line, goes crashing through hedges in langdale, gets towed around around north wales on his pushbike by a motorbike and provokes a diplomatic incident by climbing on pyramids has to be!
 Greenbanks 08 Jan 2014
In reply to rob sykes:

Great thread title - Ultimate Climbing Dinner Party (max 6-8???)
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> Wasn't Harlot Face done in the same year as Diagonal - 1938?

> jcm

No, it was a decade later: 1949
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Sorry, Harlot Face is on Castle Rock, isn't it? I meant that thing on Scafell; May Day Climb, maybe? That was done before the war, I think. I remember noticing the FA date while examining it last time I was up there.

jcm
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I didn't realise he'd started climbing that early. May Day Climb sounds v impressive.
 John H Bull 08 Jan 2014
In reply to alan moore:
That's pretty much how I remember it too - 2nd pitch scary, third fairly amenable and no memory of a mantelshelf. As it happens, I up- then down-climbed most of the 2nd pitch in a gloomy howling gale on my first attempt (it all seemed much easier and less intimidating a year later on a calm summer day), so that resonated a bit. I especially liked AB's 'You don't get scared when you're leading' comment - not many people can say that and be believed!
Thanks Gordon - great stuff.
 pneame 08 Jan 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Lovely getting these tales - I though the obit was nice (albeit with some inaccuracies), but this thread is much better. I'm hugely impressed with Arthur Birtwistle's memory - Diagonal was definitely one of "coming of age" routes, but I can' remember as much about it as he could and it was (for me) only about 40 years ago!

----
and indeed - fabulous portrait!
Post edited at 18:27
In reply to rob sykes:

a pleasure to read this forum topic about my late father. You are all right in what you say as the Guardian jumped the gun a wee bit on the drafting of Jims excellent piece. Yep, it wasnt Bury Grammar, it was Postmans Head, (and for the record radar directed AA was successful on VI but not, of course, on V2 !). Thanks again to you all in the climbing fraternity ... Phil Birtwistle
 Dave Garnett 14 Jan 2014
In reply to pasbury:

> Not to mention the Tilman & Shipton bio also published last year!

Yes, I was going on the general tone and conclusion of West , so I'm glad he's OK.
pasbury 16 Jan 2014
In reply to Dave Garnett:

West - a very strange & harrowing book that seems to have generated some ill feeling in a few folk.
 Mick Ward 16 Jan 2014
In reply to pasbury:

I feel it would be more respectful to the Birtwistle family for any discussion of West to be conducted on a separate thread.

Mick
pasbury 16 Jan 2014
In reply to Mick Ward:

Yes - my apologies - I'd delete it if I could.
 Mick Ward 16 Jan 2014
In reply to pasbury:

Ah no, don't worry. And I didn't mean to be officious.

Within the constraints of national journalism (shifting timeframes, editorial intervention, etc) Jim will have done his very best to honour the memory of Arthur Birtwistle.

When climbers go, they're like fallen comrades. You do what you can to honour them.

I don't know whether you were in the church at Hathersage when Jim gave the eulogy for Paul Williams. At that time, 'the best valediction that any climber gave any other climber...’

Despite the tears, you could almost hear ghostly chuckles from the rafters and a, "Yeah, OK mate, fair do!" from Paul.

Jim had caught his character perfectly. And honoured him.

Mick

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