UKC

Trad ethic in Monserrat?

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
 TobyA 07 Jan 2014
Has anyone climbed much around Monserrat? I'm trying (via Google Translate) to do a bit of research on a newly freed route by the Pou Brothers there, but it appears after their free ascent someone came and de-bolted it http://desnivel.com/escalada-roca/iker-pou-la-via-del-tarrago-ya-no-exister...

I'm going to talk to Eneko Pou about the climb, but wanted to try and understand before the interview what the local ethic is at Monserrat and why some one would de-bolt the climb. In the video of the route you can see them trad climbing a crack on one pitch (although the crux 8b+ pitch is clearly on bolts), so I guess at least some Monserrat climbing isn't bolted?
 Fredrik Nyberg 07 Jan 2014
In reply to TobyA:
I'm not an expert, but as i understand it, aid climbing is quite popular on the long routes in montserrat.

I think it's important to understand that the catalans don't have the same trad/sport catergories as the brits/americans. In montserrat you have sport routes and adventure routes. Adventure routes can have bolts but they are spaced, old and/or rivets, and some nuts and cams. Top-down drilling on long routes also seem to be controversial.

There is boltwars going on in a few places in catalunya.

In motserrat there can be controversies about bolting single pitch sport climbs aswell. The traditionalists seems to dislike when people bolt routes without character (just another pebblepulling exercise).
Post edited at 19:09
OP TobyA 07 Jan 2014
In reply to Fredrik Nyberg:

Thanks Fredrik. I suspected it might be something along those lines - it's interesting how specific local ethics get; I know in the US there are still plenty of people who have no problem with bolts as long as they were placed by the FA, on the lead, not "rap bolted". It seems such a weird distinction to most Brits I think, but that's the way it is over there.

I did wonder if it's rap bolting in Monserrat that some object to.
 jimtitt 08 Jan 2014
In reply to TobyA:



> I did wonder if it's rap bolting in Monserrat that some object to.

Or placing bomb-proof protection bolts to free-climb an established hard and poorly protected aid pitch
 HeMa 08 Jan 2014
In reply to TobyA:

Toby, I have a few friends that might have something to add to the discussion. I'll forward their details to ya.
 Dave Garnett 08 Jan 2014
In reply to jimtitt:
> (In reply to TobyA)

> [...]
>
> Or placing bomb-proof protection bolts to free-climb an established hard and poorly protected aid pitch

Things have probably changed since I last climbed there but my experience was that bomb-proof protection bolts on the sport climbs would have been welcome!
 beardy mike 08 Jan 2014
In reply to TobyA:

Hey Tobes - the whole bolted on lead thing in the states is pretty simple as the places it prevails are often compact granite areas where placing a bolt or two in a 50 m pitch allow you to link more conspicuous features. I think if many brits climbed some of the run-out bolted nightmares they have there, they might change their opinion somewhat...
OP TobyA 08 Jan 2014
In reply to Dave Garnett:

Was just talking with Iker Pou about the route in question http://desnivel.com/escalada-roca/la-via-tarrago-de-montserrat-liberada-por...

He was saying that there is real tension currently in Monserrat - lots of Catalan climbers want more 'modern' sports route there, but still there is a community that strongly holds a much more traditional 'mountaineering' ethic- ground up everything, bolts placed on lead ground up etc. But he was saying there are loads of bolts everywhere from aid routes and 'classic' mountaineering routes, so he was saying it's not simple "like in England!" The poor naive foreigners, thinking anything about bolts in England is simple!
 Pete O'Donovan 08 Jan 2014
In reply to TobyA:

The 'Tarragó' incident in Montserrat is indicative of the mindset of a very small nucleus of die-hard 'traditionalists' in Catalunya. David Tarragó, himself a Montserrat local, equipped this futuristic line 12 years ago, taking an audacious line up a piece of rock that is otherwise the preserve of the aid climber.

At the time it caused a minor controversy, as at one point the route crossed 'Àrea Reservada' (A4+), no doubt a horror show of 'bashies' in shallow pockets and knife-blade pegs in shitty cracks. One or two of the local big-wall crowd expressed their displeasure but no action was taken.

In late 2013 the Pou brothers freed the Tarrago line, but on returning shortly afterwards to film an ascent they found that the complete route had been stripped.

Tarrago himself says he is pretty certain who did the deed, but has no proof. He also says he will re-equip the route in the Spring (200 bolts!).

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the above affair, I myself have always found the trad ethic in Catalunya to be a complete mess. It seems that virtually anything goes so long as you climb (and protect) ground up.

There are many, many routes with grades like '6a/Ae (6c)' where you might climb four or five pitches of V+/6a cracks protected by nuts and friends and then find a compact wall of rock — the 6c pitch, if done free — equipped with a bolt every metre, simply because the first ascentionists weren't up to freeing the moves (let alone running it out) and had to aid it. To me this makes the whole thing a farce.

In Britain or the 'states the route would be left for someone better, but here that's invariably not the case.

Nor is the act of freeing previously aided climbs applauded here, unless you can do it on the in-situ gear.

Perhaps the problem is that very few top climbers here get involved with multi-pitch trad projects as the strict ground-up ethic is hardly conducive to producing clean, good quality trad routes in the higher grades.

I should just add that there are hundreds, if not thousands, of high quality, multi-pitch fully bolted routes (usually equipped on rappel) on the crags of Catalunya, and Montserrat is no exception.

I'm sure this story will get bigger...

Pete.
 Dave Garnett 08 Jan 2014
In reply to TobyA:

As I say, it was a while ago, but I remember it being a weird combination of short over-bolted things that were barely higher than boulder problems and then big pitches with minute bolts with hangers like ring-pulls that didn't look as if they would take body weight, let alone a fall - and they were quite a long way apart.
 Oliver Hill 08 Jan 2014
In reply to Pete O'Donovan: Excellent summary. From reading some blogs I
deduce in order of declining likelihood:

a. The bolts put in place in 2002 but only free climbed a month ago were too near to two hard aid climbs, taking 2 pitches of Arco Iris and one of Area Reservado A4+. Perhaps this name explains the controversy: Area reserved for aid climbing.
b. Cliqueyness. Conservative cliques abound in Montserrat;old guard, new guard, middle guard, trad, artificialeros, sport.
c. Professional commercialised climbs fround on, eg large Red Bull helmets, film advertising etc.
d. Ego, a tradition of not recording some ascents, including FFAs.
e. Basque triumphalism: I am Basque, or am I not Basque?. Montserrat is seat of Catalan mythology, climbing , religion, etc. Many Catalan climbers want to preserve some areas for Catalans. They do not want to advertise the area to avoid overcrowding and ethical degradation.
f. Lot of time spent top down cleaning this route, though no extra bolts or pitons were added to 2002 equipping.

Discussion
a. Aid climbing is a Catalan skill. Some Catalan aiders are probably best in world including those from Yosemite. Pelut, Silvia Vidal etc. Aiding on Montserrat is complicated, requiring all sorts of specialised techniques that confound even El Cap aiders and certainly Russians. In a 48 hour 2000 foot aid competition the main Russian team gave up unable to climb an A3 pitch however long they tried. It seems to be accepted that certain bits of rock are reserved for aiding, eg Pilar de Segre at Vilanova and presumably the underside of El Platan.
b. Montserrat is an area of tribal ethics just outside a major city. Various groups have different ideas of what they firmly, religiously believe to be right. Some want to preserve the past: If the first ascent was done with no pro, then that is how it should be done always. Over much of Montserrat conglomerate it is not possible to get in trad pro. So The old ethic, as in North American granite, was to climb until you arrived at a stance and then put in a bolt, originally a buril or flimsy staple now rusted and useless, then a spit or old style bolt more recently a parabolt a solid long lasting anchor.
So a lot of the classic routes, 4 star routes, may have 3 rusty staples in 100 feet. The guys who originally climbed the route were the cream of Catalan youth. Now standards have improved and few Catalan youths would be interested in a 6a walk. Those more mature want to add to their years without undue risk.
c. There is a tradition it seems in Catalunya of not recording first free ascents. The main record is typically the first ascent however much aid was used. Most of the classic routes in Catalunya were done with a lot of aid, now most are free. Quite often it is uncertain if a route or pitch was really freed or graded correctly. If you are not claiming a FFA quite easy to have it said you freed the route, or would have if you went back another day, even if you actually dogged a section or two. In perspective Cenotaph Corner was originally aided, 2 pitons, and no-one knows who did the FFA; Left Wall, Great Wall also, etc; no waiting for better climbers. Aid elimination is a natural development everywhere.
d. Ego: the only people who care are envious. Without ego how do you get up every day?
e. I would like to think this is not the reason, though could be final straw. Catalans would hope to preserve parts of Montserrat for Catalans
f. This seems to be the standard high grade practise nowadays. Impossible without. Either you do, or it does not get done. Bottom up onsight is the ideal. But impossible on overhanging, dodgy rock with no natural placements. No waiting for better climbers.
OP TobyA 08 Jan 2014
In reply to Oliver Hill:

Fascinating.

I keep seeing this word "parabolt" looking into this but don't think I've heard it before. Does it just mean a 'normal' modern bolt? Expansion or glue in?
 Oliver Hill 08 Jan 2014
In reply to TobyA:

Yes. If you are the average climber wanting to do a multi-pitch route in Catalunya to start off with it is a good idea to select routes based on number of parabolts per foot, or rather how many metres between them. They are usually nice and shiny so easy to spot, an important thing on Montserrat because often you cannot see the next pro nor where the route goes. Also many of the classic routes have well equippped belays typically three strong parabolts. One of the best routes there is Punsola Reniu on Cavall Bernat, originally an aid route and graded Asomething F5 obligatory it is now extremely well parabolted so it retains its F5 obligatory grade if you use some of the bolts, or F6c+ if you do not. No sign of any of the horrendous old tat just beautiful conglomerate and green ladybirds, 250m of sustained face climbing up the most obvious tower on Montserrat.
 victorclimber 08 Jan 2014
In reply to Pete O'Donovan:

not sure In Britain it would be left for someone better argument is quiet true..
 jimtitt 08 Jan 2014
In reply to victorclimber:

> not sure In Britain it would be left for someone better argument is quiet true..

Of course not, nor did Warren harding wait for Lynn Hill to come along to do the Nose.
 Pete O'Donovan 08 Jan 2014
In reply to jimtitt:

> Of course not, nor did Warren harding wait for Lynn Hill to come along to do the Nose.

You're talking about a first ascent that took place over 50 years ago!

Earlier in the thread Oliver Hill (excellent post otherwise) gave the examples of Cenotaph Corner, Left Wall and Great Wall as routes not left for their betters. These routes also herald from the fifties and sixties, when trad protection had hardly progressed beyond pegs and threading engineering nuts onto slings — a million miles away from what is available to the modern trad climber.

Maybe you have a different take on things, but the way I see it, since the mid/late 1980's there has been very little enthusiasm in the UK (or North America) for "I couldn't quite do it free so I used a few points of aid", especially if those few points of aid happen to be a short bolt ladder.

Pete.
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 08 Jan 2014
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> As I say, it was a while ago, but I remember it being a weird combination of short over-bolted things that were barely higher than boulder problems and then big pitches with minute bolts with hangers like ring-pulls that didn't look as if they would take body weight, let alone a fall - and they were quite a long way apart.

I think it has changed beyond recognition - all the classic routes I have done there have been fully parabolted,

Chris
1
 mockerkin 08 Jan 2014
In reply to TobyA:
I know in the US there are still plenty of people who have no problem with bolts as long as they were placed by the FA, on the lead, not "rap bolted". It seems such a weird distinction to most Brits I think, but that's the way it is over there.

>> It sounds like a reasonable general idea to me, as long as the FA hasn't overbolted.


 mockerkin 08 Jan 2014
In reply to mike kann:

"where placing a bolt or two in a 50 m pitch allow you to link more conspicuous features."

>> Well that is what bolting is all about, climbing pitches that can't be climbed by trad methods. Diverting from an obvious trad route to include a bolted pitch, e.g. an overhang, should be called "mixed climbing" and it loses the point of natural route finding needed on long routes.

OP TobyA 08 Jan 2014
In reply to mockerkin:

> as long as the FA hasn't overbolted.

That's about as slippery a climbing concept as I can think of!
 mockerkin 08 Jan 2014
In reply to TobyA:

> That's about as slippery a climbing concept as I can think of!

"It seems such a weird distinction to most Brits I think, but that's the way it is over there."
OP TobyA 08 Jan 2014
In reply to mockerkin:

> should be called "mixed climbing"

Are you not British? Because I think for the vast majority of British climbers, mixed climbing is something else entirely. But your view of "what bolting is all about" also is a very un-typical-British view, although you'd find some support for it where I live in Finland for example.
 Pete O'Donovan 08 Jan 2014
In reply to Oliver Hill:

>It seems to be accepted that certain bits of rock are reserved for aiding, eg Pilar de Segre at Vilanova and presumably the underside of El Platan.

I've just read your post again, Oliver, and I think that these are probably your most important words when trying to understand the motivation behind the removal of the parabolts from the Tarragó Route.

The question is: who exactly decides what is "reserved", and what gives them the right?

Pete.


 Oliver Hill 08 Jan 2014
In reply to Pete O'Donovan:

Well Catalans for a start. Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. With ethics it is very difficult to avoid double standards.
I do think that aid climb reservation has a point, particularly in Montserrat where it seems to be practised thruout the grades and ages. A scary aid climb would be spoilt by the proximity of parabolts. It is a shame that the bolts were not removed 12 years ago. Also that whoever did it does not say who he was and why he did it. Openness and communication can only be good. Let us hope that the Montserrat climbers get together and sort this thing out. These sort of ethical squabbles are very unpleasant and totally spoil the pleasure of climbing. No doubt why a lot of the leading free climbers cannot be bothered.
 Offwidth 09 Jan 2014
In reply to Pete O'Donovan:

Who gives local BMC commitees the right to designate no bolt areas in the UK? In theory such designations are meaningless but they hold due to ethical agreements partly backed up by an almost certainty of bolt chopping for any breaches of the agreement. The Monserrat situation may be different but the idea of local climbers setting ethics isnt unreasonable.

In reply to TobyA

The US bolt on lead ethic is well established and seems sensible to me when leading long sections of unprotectable slabs and walls. As someone wise over there pointed out to me its very hard work hand drilling bolts standing on almost nothing so overbolting didnt tend to happen. There were plenty of bolt wars out there where things did get grey.
 jimtitt 09 Jan 2014
In reply to Offwidth:

I got the impression that every kind of bolting style was well established in the USA! Which style used seemed to depend on the person bolting.
 Oliver Hill 09 Jan 2014
In reply to Pete O'Donovan:

Somewhat related:
If all the aided or partially aided routes on Montserrat were graded as in UK then an awful lot of the routes at Montserrat would be far too hard for 95% of the climbers and 99.9% of weekend climbers over 50 years old. I get the impression that a lot of old casual climbers at Montserrat go out on a Sunday afternoon and climb a tower at say 500 feet long, F5 Ae 3 points in situ aid or say VS 4b, a sort of Idwal Slabs ramble. Would this route be improved if it was rated F7b, E5 UK6b crap unbalanced route? A guide having only F7 or E5 and above is a very boring guide.
La Gran Ilusio on Cavall Bernat 235 m 7a+ (6a+ obligatory) is the perfect Montserrat climb sustained all the way with only 2 ledges. No navigation problems, the natural line, straight up.
I hazard a UK grade of E5 UK 6c free or E3 5c 2 points of aid on 2 overhangs each. At E3 it is 4 stars at E5 only 2 stars. Here is a link:
http://fendaseferralla.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/monserrat-sanchez-martinez-fr...
One secret to climbing at Montserrat and Catalunya in general is only to look at the obligatory grade, to climb ground up and onsight and relax on the odd piece of aid when necessary saving one’s resources for potential run out sections. Unlike UK there is so much rock there is no need to head point, top rope practise or rope solo. But then this advice is for weekend climbers not the pros. But then who is the mountain for? 0.1% or all?
 Alun 09 Jan 2014
In reply to Oliver Hill:

> Would this route be improved if it was rated F7b, E5 UK6b crap unbalanced route? A guide having only F7 or E5 and above is a very boring guide.

To extend your analogy it would be more like having a 10 pitch "E5", with only one truly difficult pitch and the rest around VS or whatever - which makes a very unbalanced and probably unpopular route. More pertinently, it probably wouldn't even exist.

Personally, I don't like the Montserrat style. As POD said above, it is a total mess of ethics, bolts, espits, buriles, tat and other rusting ironmongery which just frustrates me. Your point about the 0.1% is interesting, but it is more a 'fault' (not the best word) of the people who made the first ascents, who chose to lead easy climbing away from the natural line and into more difficult territory - but without the first intention of freeing it.

I would find this more acceptable if those features were always aided as done originally, but the fact that many of them are now bolted every metre invalidates the approach somewhat. (Though this is not always the case - occasionally a wonderful free climb has emerged, but more by luck than design it seems).

Either way, after a spell of going there most weekends I have not climbed on Montserrat for several years now, and am not in any rush to go back.

1
 Alun 09 Jan 2014
In reply to Oliver Hill:
> I hazard a UK grade of E5 UK 6c free or E3 5c 2 points of aid on 2 overhangs each. At E3 it is 4 stars at E5 only 2 stars. Here is a link:

Just looked at the link and realized I did the Sanchez-Martinez free with Ferran 'caranorte' several years ago. Fantastic route which requires a solid "trad-head" for most of it, but somewhat spoilt by the bolt ladder on the the 7a(++++ apparently) pitch. We skipped round a few metres to the left on ground which felt 5+/6aish, before rejoining before the two main events.

The 'problem' with the ethics of the route is that (as I understand it) the original rusting rubbish has been replaced like-for-like with shiny parabolts. If were up to me I would have not replaced the gear on the 7a(+++) pitch (which, apparently, nobody ever bothers to try to free climb) to encourage people to go climb to the left.
Post edited at 16:31
 Pete O'Donovan 09 Jan 2014
In reply to Offwidth:

> The Monserrat situation may be different but the idea of local climbers setting ethics isnt unreasonable.

Not unreasonable at all.

However, in Montserrat there are many different groups of 'local climbers' (this was mentioned by Oliver Hill earlier) and herein lies the problem.
 Pete O'Donovan 09 Jan 2014
In reply to Oliver Hill:

> It is a shame that the bolts were not removed 12 years ago.

Absolutely. Doing it just a few days after the line was first free climbed seems very petty and smacks of spitefulness — not a great way to get your message across.

>Openness and communication can only be good. Let us hope that the Montserrat climbers get together and sort this thing out. These sort of ethical squabbles are very unpleasant and totally spoil the pleasure of climbing. No doubt why a lot of the leading free climbers cannot be bothered.

Agreed.

 Jonny2vests 09 Jan 2014
In reply to jimtitt:

> I got the impression that every kind of bolting style was well established in the USA! Which style used seemed to depend on the person bolting.

Maybe that was the case back in the day, but consensus, per venue, has firmed up somewhat in recent years.
 jimtitt 09 Jan 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

That wasn´t the impression I got when I went to the ASCA conference the year before last
 Oliver Hill 09 Jan 2014
In reply to Alun:

I know what you mean. However things are slowly improving. There are three recent guide books which take on this problem to a great extent guiding climbers to the routes which suit their particular preference. In spite of all the UK climbers apparent love for trad I suspect when they go to Montserrat they avoid most of the hardish, run out trad routes. Go to San Benet if you are a staunch trad climber put your money where your mouth is and try the routes with three or less bolts per pitch. Or go to the South side where the 2010 guide books spoon feed you danger level and protection type.. fortunately. The San Benet area seems to be one of the epi-centres of run out rust, but there are some very good climbs, typically closely bolted on hard climbing and sparse on easier ground. I think you will find that if you choose the right area and route it is as well or better managed than anywhere else and probably by design. One needs to invest time in the selection process, but it is now so much easier with the internet.
 Oliver Hill 09 Jan 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

I wonder if Yosemite aiders can learn anything from Montserrat, with the Dawn Wall/Mescalito heroics going on, soon there will no longer be anywhere for them to climb. Remember the Indians...
Has Yosemite now sorted out its styles? May be there is something to be learnt from there. I remember climbing one beautiful granite arete that had gone thru several bolting/debolting phases at the end of the '80s in Colorado.
 Jonny2vests 09 Jan 2014
In reply to jimtitt:

> That wasn´t the impression I got when I went to the ASCA conference the year before last

Fair enough, try rap bolting a route on the Muir Wall and see what happens then
In reply to TobyA:

>> reply to mockerkIn
>: as long as the FA hasn't overbolted.

>That's about as slippery a climbing concept as I can think of!

Not really; the thing about bolting by hand (no power drills) ground up on the lead is that you need to have places on the route that allow you to bolt. A foothold to stand on for an hour or 2, a small flake that can be used as a hook placement, and so on.

The point being that the natural morphology of the route has to allow one to place a bolt, rather than sport/rap bolting where you can put a bolt where you want.

A route which had lots of stances could theoretically be over bolted in this framework, but with that many good stances it would probably be an easy route and who is going to spend hours and hours tap-tap-tapping a hole every metre and a half? Overbolting is naturally discouraged by the physical difficulties having both hands free while leading for an hour or so.

 Oliver Hill 10 Jan 2014
In reply to Oliver Hill:

Looking at the Spanish desnivel posting there seemed to be about 20 posts against the debolting; 5 for preserving 'trad' ways; 1 unhappy about being too close to an aid route or 'reserved area'. Of those against debolting, most were horrified that this was done without consensus nor openness and felt an Open Meeting should be held to air views and establish norms. One mentioned the obvious point that it is required to get permission from Park to bolt. More so should it be required to get permission to debolt, especially considering the obvious danger to unsuspecting ascentionists. By applying for such permission openness would be achieved. Best of luck to our Catalan friends.
 jimtitt 10 Jan 2014
In reply to Jonny2vests:

There are rap bolted routes in Yosemite. Try lead hand drilling the odd 5.14 at somewhere like RRG and tell us how you get on!
As I said, every style of bolting is used in the USA.
 Jonny2vests 10 Jan 2014
In reply to jimtitt:
> There are rap bolted routes in Yosemite.

Yes Jim, I'm not disputing that, I'm just saying that venue specific ethics are more established than they used to be and you'd get a pretty frosty reception if you tried it these days.
Post edited at 09:36
 Oliver Hill 13 Jan 2014
In reply to TobyA:


Putting artificial climbing in perspective the blogs below tell you something about Montserrat, the mountain that Silvia Vidal learnt her craft on. In her excellent interview in this month’s Climber she makes the comment that the conglomerate and limestone of Catalunya are the best places to learn to aid climb as ‘Yosemite granite is not that creative’, too uniform.
A remarkable film interview with Silvia Vidal below the Paret dels Ecos sector of The North Wall:
http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/item.php?id=67644

Map and topos of Paret dels Ecos the wall behind Silvia: http://lanochedelloro.com/blogbarri/ecos.html
Route 21 Frec a Frec 480m 7a 6b obligatory, take nuts and friends. Trad climbing in Catalunya is different to that in the UK, mixed free and aid is the style as the walls are big, steep and blank. The map shows the variety of the routes on a typical Montserrat wall: E1 trad routes to A5.



New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...