This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Hi all,
I am taking a friend up for his first winter route next weekend and I would like to hear any recommendations from those experienced chaps who know mainland routes well. He's a reasonably good sport climber but is keen to try some winter stuff.
We want to do a two day route spread over three days; first day would be mostly ice axe arrest and crampon techniques etc (so not much walking) and then the next two would be a slow paced plod stopping to go over gear placement (not that you need it for a grade I) and rope-work. We'll be camping on the mountain so don't need huts etc.
Ideally we'd want something that is accessible by public transport (we'd get a bus to either Aviemore or Inverness from London) but don't mind a long walk in. Also somewhere that doesn't involve access via avalanche prone slopes would be nice.
Looking at a book I have, I was thinking either Ring of Steall (though the area currently looking a little avalanche prone so probably not) or the North East Ridge of Angel's Peak (conditions look better on SAIS); both with some extra detours to expand the trip. Anyone have experiences of these or have other suggestions? Thanks.
I am taking a friend up for his first winter route next weekend and I would like to hear any recommendations from those experienced chaps who know mainland routes well. He's a reasonably good sport climber but is keen to try some winter stuff.
We want to do a two day route spread over three days; first day would be mostly ice axe arrest and crampon techniques etc (so not much walking) and then the next two would be a slow paced plod stopping to go over gear placement (not that you need it for a grade I) and rope-work. We'll be camping on the mountain so don't need huts etc.
Ideally we'd want something that is accessible by public transport (we'd get a bus to either Aviemore or Inverness from London) but don't mind a long walk in. Also somewhere that doesn't involve access via avalanche prone slopes would be nice.
Looking at a book I have, I was thinking either Ring of Steall (though the area currently looking a little avalanche prone so probably not) or the North East Ridge of Angel's Peak (conditions look better on SAIS); both with some extra detours to expand the trip. Anyone have experiences of these or have other suggestions? Thanks.
In reply to crayefish:
I think going into the remote bits of the Cairngorms this weekend will be brilliant. Might be hard work, mind. But you could go Chalamain Gap > NE ridge of Angel's > Cairn Toul > Corrour> Carn a' Mhaim> Macdui > car park. That would be quite a weekend, and it would have one rocky but easy ridge and one narrow hill-walking ridge in it, plus lots of plateau time.
I think going into the remote bits of the Cairngorms this weekend will be brilliant. Might be hard work, mind. But you could go Chalamain Gap > NE ridge of Angel's > Cairn Toul > Corrour> Carn a' Mhaim> Macdui > car park. That would be quite a weekend, and it would have one rocky but easy ridge and one narrow hill-walking ridge in it, plus lots of plateau time.
In reply to crayefish:
Fiacail Ridge on cairngorm is the classic non threatening easily escapable winter ridge for people who don't know if they like winter stuff yet or not. It suffers from being short though.
I have taken a complete beginner up the angel ridge before. It was a good day, but not exactly convenient for the road - we stayed in corrour bothy the night before and after.
The E ridge of Carn Mor Dearg is good fun in winter nick, if slightly easier than what you are after. If he enjoys that then you are in good position for the CMD arete.
Fiacail Ridge on cairngorm is the classic non threatening easily escapable winter ridge for people who don't know if they like winter stuff yet or not. It suffers from being short though.
I have taken a complete beginner up the angel ridge before. It was a good day, but not exactly convenient for the road - we stayed in corrour bothy the night before and after.
The E ridge of Carn Mor Dearg is good fun in winter nick, if slightly easier than what you are after. If he enjoys that then you are in good position for the CMD arete.
In reply to Tim Chappell:
We'll be going next weekend rather than this one. Yeah I was thinking something along those lines for that route (though given the size of the OS map section in the book I can't see east of Cairn Toul).
Sounds like it has a bit of everything too which is good. Do you know if the approach slopes to Chalamain Gap have any suitable places to practice ice axe arrest?
We'll be going next weekend rather than this one. Yeah I was thinking something along those lines for that route (though given the size of the OS map section in the book I can't see east of Cairn Toul).
Sounds like it has a bit of everything too which is good. Do you know if the approach slopes to Chalamain Gap have any suitable places to practice ice axe arrest?
In reply to crayefish:
How fit is your mate and I'm not talking climbing fit more trudging for many hours and days in a row some of which atleast may invole carrying a heavy bag? I think ring of steal is a pretty hard day for someone's first taste of winter especially if its not covered in hard neve. As for Angels peak, its a very remote location and don't underestimate quite how arduous it is getting over there or quite how frightening it may be for someone who's not used to being in such a remote location!
Also have you camped much in winter? It also a pretty arduous way of introducing someone to winter climbing the worst part being lack of proper warmth and a drying room. Personally I'd head over to the nothern corries, glen coe or the ben and spend the evenings in a nice warm bunkhouse with a drying room and nip over to a nice warm pub with a fire.
Its difficult to recommend routes at this stage as its all so dependent on conditions but as long as its cold enough, you will probably find suitable routes at any of those locations I reckon. One advantage of basing your self on the west side is that aonach mor is very often fairly low avalanche risk on one side on the hill or the other (normally the west facing aspects are lowest but see SAIS nearer the time) and the ridge routes do tend to be better on the west.
How fit is your mate and I'm not talking climbing fit more trudging for many hours and days in a row some of which atleast may invole carrying a heavy bag? I think ring of steal is a pretty hard day for someone's first taste of winter especially if its not covered in hard neve. As for Angels peak, its a very remote location and don't underestimate quite how arduous it is getting over there or quite how frightening it may be for someone who's not used to being in such a remote location!
Also have you camped much in winter? It also a pretty arduous way of introducing someone to winter climbing the worst part being lack of proper warmth and a drying room. Personally I'd head over to the nothern corries, glen coe or the ben and spend the evenings in a nice warm bunkhouse with a drying room and nip over to a nice warm pub with a fire.
Its difficult to recommend routes at this stage as its all so dependent on conditions but as long as its cold enough, you will probably find suitable routes at any of those locations I reckon. One advantage of basing your self on the west side is that aonach mor is very often fairly low avalanche risk on one side on the hill or the other (normally the west facing aspects are lowest but see SAIS nearer the time) and the ridge routes do tend to be better on the west.
Post edited at 13:03
In reply to CurlyStevo:
He is pretty fit, though like me he has the rugby player build rather than the mountain marathon build In terms of exposure he has no problem with that sort of thing (he tells me anyway) so I am not overly worried about how frightening it is. We'll probably rope up and place protection as much as possible anyway - simply to practice that stuff with him.
With three days you think it would be a struggle for someone on their first time out? *In theory* according to the book the route can be done in 1/2 days.
Yes I have quite a bit of winter camping experience... in fact I never stay in huts as I love winter camping so much. Everything from a simple low level snow camp to solo bivis at -20 on plateaus. I also like the fact that if you get stuck in bad weather on the mountain you are easily prepared, unlike if you planned only a day climb. Though obviously the pace is slower with all the kit.
I did warm him that I only camp on the mountain and he was totally up for it.
> How fit is your mate and I'm not talking climbing fit more trudging for many hours and days in a row some of which atleast may invole carrying a heavy bag? I think ring of steal is a bloody hard day for someones first taste of winter especially if its not covered in hard neve. As for Angels peak, its a very remote location and don't underestimate quite how arduous it is getting over there or quite how frightening it may be for someone who's not used to it!
> Also have you camped much in winter? It also a pretty arduous way of introducing someone to winter climbing. Personally I'd head over to nothern corries, glen coe or the ben and spend the evenings in a nice warm bunkhouse with a drying room and nip over to a nice warm pub with a fire.
He is pretty fit, though like me he has the rugby player build rather than the mountain marathon build In terms of exposure he has no problem with that sort of thing (he tells me anyway) so I am not overly worried about how frightening it is. We'll probably rope up and place protection as much as possible anyway - simply to practice that stuff with him.
With three days you think it would be a struggle for someone on their first time out? *In theory* according to the book the route can be done in 1/2 days.
Yes I have quite a bit of winter camping experience... in fact I never stay in huts as I love winter camping so much. Everything from a simple low level snow camp to solo bivis at -20 on plateaus. I also like the fact that if you get stuck in bad weather on the mountain you are easily prepared, unlike if you planned only a day climb. Though obviously the pace is slower with all the kit.
I did warm him that I only camp on the mountain and he was totally up for it.
In reply to crayefish:
Another possibility is to get yourself to Aberdeen, then a service bus up Deeside. Get off at the Invercauld bridge, or Braemar itself if you fancy a longer walk. You could head through the Ballochbuie forest towards The Stuic, which is a rocky grade I, and as a "route", arguably better than the ridge on Angel's - you'll have plenty of opportunity to place gear on it, if you want.
Once at the top of the Stuic, head to Lochnagar and have a look into the corrie, and wander down past the waterfall to the bothy at Glas-allt Shiel. Next day, head up to the Dubh-loch, do Central Gully, and head down Glen Callater (or go along the tops), back to Braemar for your bus.
Another possibility is to get yourself to Aberdeen, then a service bus up Deeside. Get off at the Invercauld bridge, or Braemar itself if you fancy a longer walk. You could head through the Ballochbuie forest towards The Stuic, which is a rocky grade I, and as a "route", arguably better than the ridge on Angel's - you'll have plenty of opportunity to place gear on it, if you want.
Once at the top of the Stuic, head to Lochnagar and have a look into the corrie, and wander down past the waterfall to the bothy at Glas-allt Shiel. Next day, head up to the Dubh-loch, do Central Gully, and head down Glen Callater (or go along the tops), back to Braemar for your bus.
In reply to crayefish:
For the easier end of the spectrum you could try the Tarmachan ridge near Killin. One slightly tricker downclimb or abseil along the way. Pleasant scrambling for a few other parts.
For the easier end of the spectrum you could try the Tarmachan ridge near Killin. One slightly tricker downclimb or abseil along the way. Pleasant scrambling for a few other parts.
In reply to crayefish:
"With three days you think it would be a struggle for someone on their first time out? *In theory* according to the book the route can be done in 1/2 days."
Which route? I think Ring of Steal would be a fairly full day for most people by the time you've walked in and out and on unconsolidated snow a long hard day!
I camped nearly every trip on my first winter season in Scotland, but the snow drifts coming under the fly, -8 mornings and lack of drying room put me off! That and the fact its dark from 16:30 and I'd rather have a kitchen, shower, sofa and bed! I think I'm going soft
Have you considered staying in a bothy, Corrour Bothy gives good access to angels peak.
I've only been over to Braeriach once in winter and we just managed it on push bikes in and out in a day (going up gleann einaich), the route was well under our limit (around II/III) but the first pitch was hard for the grade for the conditions, after that we romped to the top and sprinted back out, it was more about the mission that the climb. I actually think this was maybe easier than lugging camping stuff in and out up the lairig ghru in summer though, I can't imagine how hard work that would be on snow but unless its good neve I think it will be very knackering!
"With three days you think it would be a struggle for someone on their first time out? *In theory* according to the book the route can be done in 1/2 days."
Which route? I think Ring of Steal would be a fairly full day for most people by the time you've walked in and out and on unconsolidated snow a long hard day!
I camped nearly every trip on my first winter season in Scotland, but the snow drifts coming under the fly, -8 mornings and lack of drying room put me off! That and the fact its dark from 16:30 and I'd rather have a kitchen, shower, sofa and bed! I think I'm going soft
Have you considered staying in a bothy, Corrour Bothy gives good access to angels peak.
I've only been over to Braeriach once in winter and we just managed it on push bikes in and out in a day (going up gleann einaich), the route was well under our limit (around II/III) but the first pitch was hard for the grade for the conditions, after that we romped to the top and sprinted back out, it was more about the mission that the climb. I actually think this was maybe easier than lugging camping stuff in and out up the lairig ghru in summer though, I can't imagine how hard work that would be on snow but unless its good neve I think it will be very knackering!
In reply to crayefish:
OK, ignore my weather predictions then
Yes, plenty if you look around. Depending on conditions, the slopes above/ around the Chalamain Gap can be good for this. They can also avalanche--people died there last winter. So watch out!
> We'll be going next weekend rather than this one.
OK, ignore my weather predictions then
> Sounds like it has a bit of everything too which is good. Do you know if the approach slopes to Chalamain Gap have any suitable places to practice ice axe arrest?
Yes, plenty if you look around. Depending on conditions, the slopes above/ around the Chalamain Gap can be good for this. They can also avalanche--people died there last winter. So watch out!
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Angel's ridge; I think that seems the better option of the two given the comments so far and current conditions on SAIS.
Nope, never considered a bothy. I'd still prefer a tent or bivi. Perhaps I have something missing in my head
Thanks for the recommendations Scomuir and NottsRich; I'll look into them.
Angel's ridge; I think that seems the better option of the two given the comments so far and current conditions on SAIS.
Nope, never considered a bothy. I'd still prefer a tent or bivi. Perhaps I have something missing in my head
Thanks for the recommendations Scomuir and NottsRich; I'll look into them.
In reply to crayefish:
It's worth pointing out that the approach to Angel's Peak could be riskier than the ridge itself if snow conditions are an issue, as there's some fairly steep ground below it.
It's worth pointing out that the approach to Angel's Peak could be riskier than the ridge itself if snow conditions are an issue, as there's some fairly steep ground below it.
In reply to crayefish:
The current forecast on SAIS in unlikely to be at all relevant in a weeks time!
Angels Peak is a short route if you are camping somewhere near the start of it, you'll need something else to fill your day. However if you are either walking in or walking out or both the same day I think you'll find you've got a fairly (to very) full day on your hands.
The current forecast on SAIS in unlikely to be at all relevant in a weeks time!
Angels Peak is a short route if you are camping somewhere near the start of it, you'll need something else to fill your day. However if you are either walking in or walking out or both the same day I think you'll find you've got a fairly (to very) full day on your hands.
Post edited at 14:18
In reply to Scomuir:
Plus the Lairig Ghru and Chalamain Gap can expose you to avalanches. I'm not so sure if entering it from the south is any safer.
Plus the Lairig Ghru and Chalamain Gap can expose you to avalanches. I'm not so sure if entering it from the south is any safer.
Post edited at 14:25
In reply to CurlyStevo:
True!
The route Tim suggested should extend the route, being over 30km in total, which should make it more suitable for an extended trip. Personally I prefer to camp on he mountain rather than approach, say on the Braeriach plateau or near Lochan Odhar on the first night depending on the time to get there in the morning and go over ice axe arrest (need to buy an OS map to look for somewhere for the second night). I'd not want to have too much route to do in any one day as I want a buffer built in for skills practice on route and because I don't know how fast he will be (though I doubt he will be slow, I can't be 100% sure until I see for myself).
The route I was considering (partially outlined in Dan Bailey's books) looks like it only crosses the Lairig Ghuru briefly (going towards Lochan Ohdar) rather than going along it. Would this area still be avalanche prone? Can the risk be reduced by skirting further north to cross do you think? I am send a picture of part the route if I am not explaining myself well.
True!
The route Tim suggested should extend the route, being over 30km in total, which should make it more suitable for an extended trip. Personally I prefer to camp on he mountain rather than approach, say on the Braeriach plateau or near Lochan Odhar on the first night depending on the time to get there in the morning and go over ice axe arrest (need to buy an OS map to look for somewhere for the second night). I'd not want to have too much route to do in any one day as I want a buffer built in for skills practice on route and because I don't know how fast he will be (though I doubt he will be slow, I can't be 100% sure until I see for myself).
The route I was considering (partially outlined in Dan Bailey's books) looks like it only crosses the Lairig Ghuru briefly (going towards Lochan Ohdar) rather than going along it. Would this area still be avalanche prone? Can the risk be reduced by skirting further north to cross do you think? I am send a picture of part the route if I am not explaining myself well.
In reply to crayefish:
Possibly - it all depends on the conditions at the time. It looks like it would reduce the risk in typical E facing higher avalanche risk conditions especially if you can avoid the Gap and go via rothimercus lodge. But it wouldn't negate them entirely and in a pretty dodgy SAIS forecast for Easterly aspects (say a considerable forecast which is high in the grade and not just isolated pockets of windslab) I'd likely choose another destination for your weekend.
Maybe one of the local instructors can better advise, I've not been in or out that way in winter before.
Possibly - it all depends on the conditions at the time. It looks like it would reduce the risk in typical E facing higher avalanche risk conditions especially if you can avoid the Gap and go via rothimercus lodge. But it wouldn't negate them entirely and in a pretty dodgy SAIS forecast for Easterly aspects (say a considerable forecast which is high in the grade and not just isolated pockets of windslab) I'd likely choose another destination for your weekend.
Maybe one of the local instructors can better advise, I've not been in or out that way in winter before.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Hmmmm... so one would have to miss the entire approach to the Gap (including the gap itself) rather than just the Lairing Ghru further south? That would be a shame and quite a detour.
Anyone local to the area that can advise?
Having looked at the other suggestions I think the Tarmachan ridge might be a bit short as a route.
Hmmmm... so one would have to miss the entire approach to the Gap (including the gap itself) rather than just the Lairing Ghru further south? That would be a shame and quite a detour.
Anyone local to the area that can advise?
Having looked at the other suggestions I think the Tarmachan ridge might be a bit short as a route.
In reply to Scomuir:
This suggestion looks like a longer route but I am struggling to map out the second half of the route without an OS map. Scomuir, do you know a site that maps out the route you describe, or at least the second part of it?
This suggestion looks like a longer route but I am struggling to map out the second half of the route without an OS map. Scomuir, do you know a site that maps out the route you describe, or at least the second part of it?
In reply to crayefish:
It'll be different by next weekend, but right now the avalanche forecast is fine for the northern Cairngorms.
http://www.sais.gov.uk/page_northern%20cairngorms.asp
NB that doesn't mean it's impossible to be avalanched!
It'll be different by next weekend, but right now the avalanche forecast is fine for the northern Cairngorms.
http://www.sais.gov.uk/page_northern%20cairngorms.asp
NB that doesn't mean it's impossible to be avalanched!
In reply to Tim Chappell:
Yeah. I'd like to book bus tickets by Tuesday at the very latest (preferably before) so having somewhere that is generally less avalanche prone (if conditions do change) or having another route near by with opposing slope aspects on the approach/descent as a backup would be good.
Ah the joys of living in f*cking London and it being a mission to get up to Scotland.
Yeah. I'd like to book bus tickets by Tuesday at the very latest (preferably before) so having somewhere that is generally less avalanche prone (if conditions do change) or having another route near by with opposing slope aspects on the approach/descent as a backup would be good.
Ah the joys of living in f*cking London and it being a mission to get up to Scotland.
In reply to crayefish:
worth having a look at Stuic buttress on Lochnagar, sure buses run up the A93 all the time
worth having a look at Stuic buttress on Lochnagar, sure buses run up the A93 all the time
In reply to crayefish:
If current avalanche forecasts are the same in a week's time this will be more down to luck than anything else. I think the Gorms suggestion sounds like a great wee trip, and if doing ridges / high tops the weather forecast will likely be more a consideration than the avalanche one (though still check the latter of course).
On a completely still, clear night the summit plateau of Braeriach would give an amazing camp, but in most other conditions probably best pick somewhere else! The wee Garbh Coire bothy could be another consideration?
In reply to others:
If the slope on one side of the Chalamain Gap looked dodgy, couldn't one just traverse the other side? Very unlikely to get serious cross loading on both sides I'd have thought.
If current avalanche forecasts are the same in a week's time this will be more down to luck than anything else. I think the Gorms suggestion sounds like a great wee trip, and if doing ridges / high tops the weather forecast will likely be more a consideration than the avalanche one (though still check the latter of course).
On a completely still, clear night the summit plateau of Braeriach would give an amazing camp, but in most other conditions probably best pick somewhere else! The wee Garbh Coire bothy could be another consideration?
In reply to others:
If the slope on one side of the Chalamain Gap looked dodgy, couldn't one just traverse the other side? Very unlikely to get serious cross loading on both sides I'd have thought.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Elsewhere on the site
Winter Conditions
This Winter Conditions page gives a summary of what is being climbed at the moment, what is 'in' nick and what the prospects are...
Loading Notifications...