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Remergence - Grade discussion

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 JimboWizbo 14 Jan 2014
Disclaimer: This is a grade discussion, it is petty and unnecessary.

Me and a friend are discussing the grade of Remergence at Burbage. We are both confident with V4, and we both like the sound of the "well protected" top half of the route.

Now E4 is beyond my grade, but because this route is well protected at the top and we can effectively practise the difficult start with boulder mats, we are considering siege tactics and going for an E4 tick.

So, what grade is this route worth if you don't kick the mats away once you've finished bouldering and tie on for the lead.
 The Pylon King 14 Jan 2014
In reply to JimboWizbo:

F6c
 jkarran 14 Jan 2014
In reply to JimboWizbo:

> So, what grade is this route worth if you don't kick the mats away once you've finished bouldering and tie on for the lead.

Why not just try it, see how it feels in a style you're comfortable with? Have a look a the escape traverse before you get started, I'm a big softie and found it a bit thought provoking.

jk
OP JimboWizbo 14 Jan 2014
In reply to jkarran:

I agree, I'll probably prefer to climb this one with pads, I might even check out the gear before leading.

I'm just interested in people's stance on using pads on a trad route with a well known boulder problem start.
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 14 Jan 2014
In reply to JimboWizbo:

Well traditionally the E4 grade included the tough start. I'd guess the top crux might be E2 6a, a powerful lock off a jug, with a good cam by your hand.


Chris
 deacondeacon 14 Jan 2014
In reply to JimboWizbo:

Your logbook says you climb f7a indoors. I've never looked at the route (just the boulder problem) but if you're competent at placing gear a well protected E4 is well within your grade.

As far as using pads goes, do what you like, it doesn't affect anybody else so it comes Down to how it affects hour personal experience.
 deacondeacon 14 Jan 2014
In reply to JimboWizbo:



> So, what grade is this route worth if you don't kick the mats away once you've finished bouldering and tie on for the lead.

The grade of the route doesn't change, you'll just have an easier experience than climbing it without pads.
Good luck, having a look at the route it looks like a good plan to break into E4.
 1poundSOCKS 14 Jan 2014
In reply to deacondeacon:
The grade might not change, but surely throwing a load of pads under an E4 with a hard start doesn't get the full E4 tick, does it?

Thinking about it, the grade can change due to a siderunner, obviously just because it makes the route safer. Logically can't pads do the same?
Post edited at 09:58
 Al Evans 14 Jan 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

Of course they can, as somebody who ended up getting stitches after a failed attempt at Remergence.
OP JimboWizbo 14 Jan 2014
In reply to Al Evans:

Sounds like a good story!
 ByEek 14 Jan 2014
In reply to JimboWizbo:

It doesn't matter. To all your mates who weren't there, you can claim E4 bragging rights if you can live with the fact that Ron Fawcett probably soloed it 30 years ago in plimsoles.
 Jon Stewart 14 Jan 2014
In reply to JimboWizbo:

As someone who's done the boulder problem a million times but never even looked at the route...

I've heard that the top roof is really hard. To those people saying "you can climb 7a indoors", for goodness sake this is GRITSTONE route involving two boulder problems, one at the start, then a picnic ledge, then another one. How on earth is climbing 7a indoors going to be helpful on that?

I think being able to flash grit 6b on a rope is the skill you need for Remergence.

But what do I know, I've never tried it.
 Jon Stewart 14 Jan 2014
In reply to JimboWizbo:

Also, my mate tried pretty much the same thing. He'd done the boulder problem the week before and thought "Hmmm maybe I can get an E4 tick out of this". He came back the next week...






...and couldn't do the boulder problem with a rack on!! Classic.
OP JimboWizbo 14 Jan 2014
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Brilliant.
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 14 Jan 2014
In reply to JimboWizbo:

We did the bouldery start, then got the rack thrown up on a bandoleer - it aint rocket science!


Chris
 Al Evans 14 Jan 2014
In reply to Chris Craggs:

But it's not a ground up ascent, you may as well top rope the start then chuck away the top rope and carry on and claim the E4 lead!
 Jon Stewart 14 Jan 2014
In reply to Chris Craggs:

> We did the bouldery start, then got the rack thrown up on a bandoleer - it aint rocket science!

Yes, but did you still 'claim' the E4?

In reply to Al Evans:

Eh? 'Course it is - people have gear thrown up to them by the second all the time.

jcm
 TimB 14 Jan 2014
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

There's a difference between having a vital Friend thrown to you whilst quivering on dodgy smears, and having a whole rack ready to hoist up.

One is the kind of bumbling amateur haplessness that is to be celebrated, and the other is the kind of stoney-hearted, calculating seige tactics that lessen an ascent and make God kill kittens.

I write this as someone who has done the start of both Remergence and Wall of Horrors without mats and carrying a full rack. Although I couldn't do the top of Remergence and fell off WoH on the first attempt... Je ne regrette rien.
 Jon Stewart 14 Jan 2014
In reply to TimB:

^^Fantastic.
 1poundSOCKS 14 Jan 2014
In reply to TimB:
Dave Macleod did this on a Peak E10 (I think it's a John Arran route with a Jerry Moffat boulder problem start). Not sure whether he claimed the full tick.

BTW, off to Almscliff today, was going to try the WoH start!
Post edited at 11:41
 Jon Stewart 14 Jan 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

> BTW, off to Almscliff today, was going to try the WoH start!

I think you should know: I can reach it! Haha!
 Al Evans 14 Jan 2014
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> Eh? 'Course it is - people have gear thrown up to them by the second all the time.

> jcm

No it's not John, it's fun and it's climbing but by todays sadly rigid rules, it's neither on sight or ground up.
In reply to TimB:

We must think of the kittens of course, but still both methods involve starting on the ground and proceeding to the top without anyone leaving the ground other than the climber, which I think is more or less what ‘ground-up’ means.

Still, this rather theological discussion does give me the opportunity to recount a personal favourite moment. Our hero has just completed Calvary in this same style, having a second number one Friend dug out of the rucsac and lobbed up to him near the top when he discovers that two such are useful on this route. He is standing at the bottom of the route, having finished boasting about his ascent to his second, and is looking for someone else to boast to about it, when along (clue) comes a shaggy-haired youth. Our hero naturally engages him in conversation, and SHY reveals that he too is thinking of doing Calvary. Oh, says OH, would you like to borrow a number one Friend? I found two of them jolly useful.

Adam Long (for it was he, I believe) smiled and said he didn’t think he’d need one. Only at this point did it occur to OH that AL was alone and had no harness. He didn’t have long to wonder, for without more ado AL stepped up to the crag and soloed the route, making it look approximately Diff. Never were a man’s chips more comprehensively pissed on – at least, not until AL reappeared with a grin at the bottom of the crag, disposed of Defying Destiny in much the same manner, picked up his beer towel and disappeared along the edge.

A mortifying glimpse into how the other half – that rather small half of us that’s actually any good at climbing - lives, really.

jcm
OP JimboWizbo 14 Jan 2014
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I had to retrieve a cam out of my rucksack while perched on a ledge on Original Route (Continuation Wall). Pretty funny, and I think it counts
 Blue Straggler 14 Jan 2014
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

While I was racking up (and procrastinating and prevaricating) at the bottom of Suicide Wall at Cratcliffe, Mr. Long came along and soloed it as a prelude to soloing about four harder routes within sight. All in the space of about 10 minutes.
I then dogged my way up P1...
 Reach>Talent 14 Jan 2014
In reply to Blue Straggler:

There really should be rules about that sort of thing. Maybe some sort of "Punters and bimblers only" days at the crag where more talented climbers can't turn up and make you look bad?
 Bulls Crack 14 Jan 2014
In reply to deacondeacon:

but part of the grade is the experience and mats do alter grades
 Offwidth 14 Jan 2014
In reply to Blue Straggler:

Prior to a Roaches Hut based BMC meet once Moff and I were smiling that despite being bumblies we seemed to be the only ones climbing beforehand, by trying Raven Rock Gully Left-Hand (we chose that as everything else apart from its easier neighbour looked sodden). We finished the route and walked back down to a 'Hi' from Adam, busy soloing some extreme.
 deacondeacon 14 Jan 2014
In reply to Bulls Crack:

> but part of the grade is the experience and mats do alter grades

That's what I was getting at. I never use pads on trad routes, it takes some of the experience away from the climbing and I personally wouldn't feel as satisfied with the ascent.
But if I climbed Remergence with pads, the route wouldn't magically change to E2, just that my experience of the climb would feel on par with an E2.
Anyway, I'm pretty tempted to go and have a look at it next time I'm at burbage as, like most others on here talking about it, I haven't actually climbed it yet.
 Jon Stewart 14 Jan 2014
In reply to deacondeacon:

I wouldn't have thought that the grade of Remergence would change with pads. The boulder problem isn't highball (although I'd still rather have a pad) and the pad's not going to help on the second roof. I reckon doing a 6b crux over a roof with gear just is E4, regardless of a padded/not padded boulder problem start.
 1poundSOCKS 14 Jan 2014
In reply to Jon Stewart: I didn't try it (it was very cold round there), I did try Morrell's Wall (seemed very hard, high gravity day I think), and jumped off Matterhorn a few times (nice climbing but very high).

 1poundSOCKS 14 Jan 2014
In reply to deacondeacon: Why does it have to magically change, it could just change? Grades can change with siderunners, nothing magic about that.

 deacondeacon 14 Jan 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

It doesn't change the grade though, even a route with side runners. If I climb Heartless Hare with a side runner the route is still an E5 5c, but I'd have only had an E3 5c experience on it.
If I climb Rhapsody on a top rope is the route no longer an E11? Of course it is.

Side-runners are for the weak anyway, and yes I used one once and still regret it to this day
 1poundSOCKS 14 Jan 2014
In reply to deacondeacon: I'm not suggesting a change to the guidebook.

But claiming you've climbed an E5 when you've used a siderunner, or claiming you've climbed an E11 when you've top-roped it is nonsense isn't it?

You've climbed Rhapsody, in the guidebook it says E11, but you haven't climbed E11.

If you want an E4 tick, climb it with an E4 experience. Saying the grade has changed, or just the experience, is just semantics IMO, the grade is the experience. The route is the route, like I said, the grade is just a guide to how hard and dangerous it is.

I understand a lot of people don't see it like this.

 Jon Stewart 14 Jan 2014
In reply to 1poundSOCKS:

You two aren't actually disagreeing about anything are you?
 1poundSOCKS 14 Jan 2014
In reply to Jon Stewart: Don't tell us that, I can sense a long period of agreement!

 Stone Muppet 14 Jan 2014
I did the boulder problem. Came back for a lead the next day. Wearing a rack I fell off, ripped myself a nice flapper and landed flat on my arse. In my defence it was probably about 10 degrees warmer as well. Doh.

Traveller in Time is a steady E4 tick, in some guides, if you're after one. Good gear by your feet for the crux, though the (easier) finish is pretty run out unless you have an hugenormous cam.
 Goucho 14 Jan 2014
In reply to deacondeacon:

> It doesn't change the grade though, even a route with side runners. If I climb Heartless Hare with a side runner the route is still an E5 5c, but I'd have only had an E3 5c experience on it.

Not really.

Fall off Heartless Hare with a side runner, and you swing. Fall off it without, and you hit the ground - the E grade isn't just about the physical and technical difficulty, it also takes into account the seriousness of the lead.

 Jonny2vests 14 Jan 2014
In reply to deacondeacon:

> It doesn't change the grade though, even a route with side runners. If I climb Heartless Hare with a side runner the route is still an E5 5c, but I'd have only had an E3 5c experience on it.

> If I climb Rhapsody on a top rope is the route no longer an E11? Of course it is.

I think I need a lie down.
OP JimboWizbo 14 Jan 2014
In reply to JimboWizbo:

Guys guys guys, Mr Craggs answered my question within 21 minutes, let's move on and talk about Father Ted
 Blue Straggler 15 Jan 2014
In reply to Reach>Talent:

Adam did try to make us look good by claiming that his solos were just ones where he knew all the holds anyway and that our onsight attempt was admirable especially given my refusal to use the "critical" crux jam near the end of P1 (a sketchy open-hand slap to the far left will bypass the jam )

"Damning with faint praise" was the phrase that came to mind

We did get to say "Nice cameras dude, 'ad 'em long?"
 metal arms 15 Jan 2014
In reply to Blue Straggler:

He is a show off isn't he!

I met him at the Roaches Wings buttress and he was very encouraging even though my ascent was measured in geological time (gotta have been at least an hour for a 12m climb!) and him and his talented mates were soloing everything with ease. Saw him at Cratcliffe as well after I'd had a rather too exciting time on 5 Finger Exercise and he strolled up that solo too.
 Cake 15 Jan 2014
In reply to JimboWizbo:

I could manage the boulder problem easily and just managed with a rope and harness on with a fair bit of gear on., which was loads harder. My belayer then chucked me some more gear as I got to the big friend slot on the HVS traverse, but I wasn't happy with it. I subsequently bottled the end before getting the higher cam in because as far as I could tell, I would need a huge amount of weight on one arm while getting gear in and then a big pull.

In short, I think it's E4 for the top, not the technical start.

Cake

P.S. Rem. Start was the my first V4 flash, so go why not try it with a rope first time?
In reply to TimB:

> There's a difference between having a vital Friend thrown to you whilst quivering on dodgy smears, and having a whole rack ready to hoist up.

Indeed.

Whatever happened to giving the rock a fighting chance?

I fear more kittens are dying every day.

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