UKC

When I first started instructing 2 years ago, the wall had a policy that instructors had to wear helmets if any member of their group was. However after 6 months this was reversed, and it was purely the children climbing who had to wear them. Now though, the policy has come back, and has increased the maximum age of helmet-wearing to 18 from 14.
Personally, whilst I can see that instructors wearing helmets 'sets a good example', I disagree with it as 1) I'm not under 18, 2) I'm not climbing, and 3) frankly I don't like wearing a helmet indoors and as an instructor feel it should be my prerogative. If I'm working an 8 hour shift, a helmet becomes a frustration and distraction.

Wondering what other people's opinions are? I agree with children in helmets when top roping, but is it really necessary for their instructors? I'm not concerned about getting hit on the head by the odd untied shoe every now and then.

In reply to tiffanykate12:




Lead by example IMO.

It soon becomes so familiar that the major problem is remembering to remove your helmet at the end of a session.

In reply to timjones:

Have mixed feelings and can see both sides. I don;t like wearing a helmet instructing indoors and think that as a professional adult some leeway should be given to instructors as to whether they decide to or not themselves.

But I can also see the argument that if someone gets hurt they might create problems for the wall, and that it's setting a good example.

In reply to tiffanykate12: Its a hard call to make. I think they should be wearing to show a good example, then leave it up the clients and future climbers whether they wear on. I know from experience its a very personal choice whether to wear a helmet.

In reply to beththeclimber:

I suppose one of my other issues is that staff are now forced to wear the same helmet as the clients - I think I'd be less against it if we had staff-specific helmets which were more comfortable.

In reply to tiffanykate12:

I'd say as an instructor, it should be your choice in that scenario. But given a number of people still don't even wear helmets outdoors, anything that sets an example to the new generation is a good thing in my opinion.

In reply to tiffanykate12:


Do they stop you wearing your own helmet?

In reply to timjones:

Eurgh, wearing the same helmets as clients - lots of kids!!?? No thanks, I'd refuse. Nits, scabies, all sorts of nasties.

In reply to tiffanykate12:

To be honest I think you are making a mountain out of a molehill. As others have said it's the example you are setting that matters. It's no big deal wearing a helmet and as has been said you quickly forget it's there and can forget to take it off afterwards!

It would make more sense if you spoke to your employers about it being uncomfortable. If you find it uncomfortable, what about the poor kids!? Maybe you should be pressing your employers to get more comfortable helmets for all?

In reply to JayPee630:


I have a feeling that if you're catching scabies off a climbing helmet you're quite possibly not using it for it's intended purpose

In reply to tiffanykate12:

I think the idea that it sets some sort of good example can be pretty dubious and it's certainly used in dubious contexts.

I wore one once when my 8YO was wearing one for leading (indoors) and he said 'That's just stupid'.

An interested kid wants to know the reasons for things and may think there is some unseen danger you haven't explained to them.

If people think that it makes ab initio groups of kids easier to manage, that's one thing (I'd still question why you need props to establish authority) but that doesn't mean it's setting some sort of good example, that's just not logical.

In reply to JayPee630:


I noticed quite few of the go-kart places I've been to recently give you a disposable paper balaclava now, I guess they get a bit sweatier though.

In reply to tiffanykate12:

Personally, I think it appears[1] hypocritical if instructors insist on helmet wearing for those being instructed but don't wear one myself. Therefore if I'm insisting on someone else wearing one, I will wear one.

[1] It is just that - appearance - but appearance is significant.

Neil

In reply to tiffanykate12:

I hate wearing a helmet, but wear one outside. I am on my sixth helmet, two were broken whilst on my head, one saved me from serious injury, and the other from having my face restyled as I slid down a slab. Two of the remainder were damaged on other peoples head (dropped a peg hammer on one and a rock on the other. The fifth was squashed on the ground where I had be standing belaying, after I took it off, put it down where I had been standing, and some prat at the top decided throwing a rock off the top would be funny!
Indoors I only wear a helmet if I am instructing/teaching. It sets a good example for outside. If you are worried about what you may catch, set a helmet aside for your personal use. I am sure your bosses will accept this action. If you find it uncomfortable, ask if you can wear your own, more comfortable one.
As I stated, I hate any kind of hat, but do appreciate their usefulness and effectiveness.

In reply to tiffanykate12:

Unfortunately a lot of these requirements are set by the insurance and level of risk the climbing wall is prepared to take. It is similar to the concept of car insurance - drive a small lower powered car and the risk is less than for a high powered sports car.

The wall is trying to minimise its risk and therefore liability.

The insurers, on the whole take the lowest common denominator and do not have the experience to look at the real level of risk. To the insurers, height is dangerous therefore the maximum amount of safety procedures must be taken.

In my professional opinion as an MIA holder the level of risk is different for different age groups. Instead of a blanket policy, the age, experience and activity should be taken into consideration. However, that level of decision making requires significant experience on behalf of the decision maker and a lot of walls do not have staff with experience due to the cost of employing them.

At the end of the day, as long as the students are having fun and are safe it's not a major issue. When the students have to start wearing full body armour, then you need to be a bit concerned.

Rich.

In reply to winhill:





I'd expect you to have time to explore the issues with your own child. It's a different matter when you've got a larger group. If you want to give them the best session possible then you probably don't need to be debating helmet wearing with them.

In reply to Richard White:


Spot on. However we need to bear in mind that most groups are going to mixed ability, it would be unwise for even the best qualified and most experienced to try making judgements on which members within don't need to wear helmets. Even the best instructors should aim to KISS

In reply to Richard White:


Is this something you've come across professionally?

Is it different for a freelance? Without site specific training?

Most of the 'It's the insurance' reasons tend to get contradicted by actual wall owners and given the nature of accidents at indoor walls, I wonder what difference an instructors wearing helmets clause could possibly make to premiums?

In reply to winhill:

FWIW, the Scout Association, not known for being shy of safety precautions, does not require helmets to be worn by experienced climbers on artificial walls. It does however require them for novices. Usually Scout camp site walls just have a blanket policy as almost all climbers are novices.

Neil

In reply to winhill:

At the end of the day if your policy requires you to do so, then you should.

As for everything else, it's just best practice. Just make sure you can justify any decision you do make and accept that others will always criticise no matter what you do. However, in my opinion, helmets aren't always needed inside but you should ALWAYS wear them outside.

That being said, I've worked at climbing walls which don't require helmets and one's that do. The best way I've found to avoid itchy heads is set an area where helmets aren't required i.e away from the rest of the group and any hazards. I'll keep it on as much as I like but if it gets unbearable then I simply move away and take it off for a short while. But I will always wear it in areas where I expect the group to use them.

A company that I used to work for wouldn't allow anyone to use their own personal kit but had Petzl harnesses and helmets for instructors and the standard camp helmets and DMM harnesses for the groups.

The company that I work for now allows you to wear whatever you like as long as you judge it suitable for the activity and fit for purpose. I prefer the latter.

In reply to tiffanykate12:

I don't see it is setting a good example to wear equipment which protects against risks you are not exposed to when belaying or supervising indoors. It's actually a bad example because kids will see someone wearing a helmet in a very low risk situation and conclude the other safety related advice is quite likely also over the top.

The instructor can easily say "I'm not wearing a helmet because I'm not climbing". Kids don't expect PE teachers or swim coaches to put on all the kit if they are just supervising.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

People do, to be fair, occasionally drop stuff on inside walls as well. While it's discouraged, I bet a good proportion of indoor climbers have their phone in their pocket.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

Yup, have seen a few things fall from walls, my pet peeve is people climbing with their belay device, krab and lots of bits on harness indoors.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


Actually (except when leading) those on the ground are probably more at risk of head injury than those half way up the wall - for the simple reason that climbers frequently climb with things in their pockets or with unsecured shoes (anyone fancy a mobile phone or size 9 trainer on their head?).

Also don't forget that holds can break and can you imagine the scenario of a child pulled on a hold which broke up knocking you unconscious, leaving them unsecured up the wall?

In reply to Neil Williams:


In most of walls I have been to, people don't stand directly beneath climbers. I except that on overhanging walls this does occur, but thats not where novices are taken climbing.

In reply to Neil Williams:



And it's not unheard of for them to try and take it out of their pocket to use it whilst on a route ;(

In reply to BIgYeti86:

Oh yes! I forgot that items can only fall directly under the climber and not have their trajectory altered by any means to either side!

In reply to JayPee630:

I've never seen someone accidentally drop a belay device or other item clipped to their harness on an indoor wall. (I have seen them do it deliberately when it got in their way but after warning their belayer).

OTOH, I have seen things like glasses and chalk bags dropped.

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:


That's true but I wouldn't think it's the level of risk which would call for a helmet. You could argue that anyone going for a run should wear a helmet because they might stumble or trip over something and bang their head. That is almost certainly a bigger risk than being hit by falling mobile phones or disintegrating holds at climbing walls.

I'm continually astonished by people's inability to think quantitatively about risk and make decisions based on the numbers rather than social convention - for example any school that allows kids to play hockey, rugby or tig has got no business getting worked up about helmets for top rope indoor climbing.

In reply to JayPee630:


I've got to say I'm a bit baffled by this one! What could possibly be wrong with having your belay device on your harness? Surely there's no better place for it?

The only other option is to leave it on the floor..... Where some unlucky soul will sprain their ankle on it (Sod's law!).

Mike.

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
True.

There are other benefits in busy walls, such as it making it obvious who is under instruction because they are wearing the wall's helmets.

I just think it's hard for the instructor to keep their authority intact if they say the trainees must do X for safety reasons and then don't do X themselves. It comes across as hypocritical even if there are good reasons for it - and I have on a number of occasions heard kids under instruction at a local wall comment on it.

"Do as I say not as I do" does sometimes work with kids, but it isn't often the best approach.

Neil

In reply to tiffanykate12:

I have always worn a helmet as an instructor outside, and if their are children around, I will wear one during personal climbing. It's all about the example we set. Only certain sites where I have worked required helmets to be worn indoors.

Indoors, I think it comes down to how developed children's awareness is, whether they should be responsible for their own safety yet (maturity) and whether they are as impact resistant as us adults. Children don't bounce back as easily, they are also more likely to do dangerous things initially and don't yet understand the consequences of certain actions (being told often isn't enough). However, there are times where a helmet indoor would be more dangerous, on auto belays for example, where a helmet lip can catch on holds on descent and lead to asphyxiation.

I think the discomfort factor for instructors can be frustrating if you are wearing it all day. I objected to wearing a webbing harness (had to match the children) as I was in it for 6 hours, not 60 minutes and spent a lot of time hanging around. The employer were not willing to move on this, or many other issues of staff welfare, so I left that job. Some employers have been more supportive and allowed use of own, or provided more comfortable equipment for instructors.

A little digression however I now know about four individual people who's lives have been saved by helmet:

1. Gear ripped on a gritstone route, hit head on rock on landing. Helmet was obliterated. Could have been their skull.

2. During a wall reset indoors (closed area) a very large volume fell about 16m and hit a member or staff below (wearing a helmet of course). Knocked them clean over and made them very dizzy. Helmet was obliterated again.

3. Fell 16 meters from top of a crag. Hit the deck and ended up in a coma for the best part of two weeks. As I understand it, the doctors said that, without their helmet, they would have died.

4. A cyclist friend was knocked off his bicycle and head butted the curb. Cuts and scrape and a great big polystyrene jigsaw to show for it. He's okay and cycles every day.

All these people were adults.

In reply to Otis:

Think that if people fall before the first clip and hit the deck then it increases the potential for damage to the back/hip. I have also seen 2 fall off the harness when not fully clipped on, just caught on the gear loop if you know what I mean?

I accept it's not a big deal though! Like I said a pet peeve, which aren't entirely logical!

In reply to tiffanykate12:
The instructor wearing a helmet shows solidarity with the kids who must to wear a helmet even though they feel self-conscious or sweaty. Is it more about pscychology of clients than the instructor's safety?

In reply to WJV0912:



Again, I don't think it is best practice, although best practice is repreatedly used to narrow options down to a single, frequently irrational (as in this case) action.

I regularly visit walls where even the novices don't use helmets, where the instructors are able to convey safety, confidence, authority without the use of props.

Their costs aren't exhorbitant because the insurance companies have doubled the premiums because the instructors don't wear helmets.

In fact this sort of issue seems to ocur much more in newer walls, with less business experience and less instructor experience, where someone has sat down with a pen and paper to work out Best Practice rather than using the obvious decades of experience in older walls.

In reply to winhill:

best practice.

oh and even in this case it's not irrational! It may be in place for a very rare type of incident and so be of negligible need, but there is a rational reason.

In reply to JayPee630:

Both fair comments I guess, but for me personally they are both such infrequent risks that I am happy to accept are part and parcel of climbing (driving to the indoor wall is by far the biggest danger we all face when climbing, yet we all do that without a second thought!).

We all have our semi-rational pet-peeves though

Mike.

In reply to tiffanykate12:

I'd not really mind my helmet but would want it to be my own one. I could even go as far as getting one for work and logo-ing up with the walls logo so it uniform. Just as long as it was the one that fitted me, helmets and heads are all different shapes so have one type for all staff isn't best.

In reply to tiffanykate12:

I don't think any one has asked you this? Obviously you will have discussed your misgivings with your employer, what reasons did they give to you for re-introducing the helmet policy for instructors?

In reply to elsewhere:

Yes. Very much so, and the importance of that should not be underestimated.

Neil

In reply to winhill:

I wasn't referring to wearing helmets as being best practice, I was saying that it's best to adhere to 'best practice' guidelines as far as everything else is concerned. Did you read the rest of my post?

In reply to tiffanykate12:

I work in a wall where the wearing of helmets for instructors is not mandatory. I choose not to wear one.
I struggle to recall a time when one of the kids in a group has questioned why I'm not wearing a helmet when they are, the group seems more concerned about the rest of the climbers in the centre who aren't wearing helmets.
As the kids get more involved in the indoor climbing we discuss why they're wearing helmets and why I choose not to when I'm working and climbing indoors, most seem to understand.

In reply to tiffanykate12:

I used to work at a place where we had to wear helmets, which I was okay with. But we had to wear different helmets to the clients, so we could have any colour helmets but yellow. Made us more identifiable in a sea of yellow.

In reply to elsewhere:

I think this is possibly the biggest part to it. Personally, I don't wear a helmet unless I'm climbing trad or drytooling - inside or outside, I generally just don't. Purely personal opinion.

The policy being purely for under18s - ie. not adult novices - is the main thing. I agree with it being an excellent way of being able to see the kids and identify groups in busy walls, but I'm still unsure about myself. Obviously I'll just do as I'm told to..

In response to you Trangia - I've not had a chance to ask our technical advisor (who implemented it) but all the other members of staff don't really know why it's changed either.

Interesting to see other's opinions though. There's definitely not one right way to do it and it's all down to personal/professional preferences. Just thought it was an interesting discussion.

In reply to griffen:

What are the reasons for kids wearing helmets? I can think of several, but I was wondering what the justification normally is in walls' risk assessments. FWIW, the instructors do not.

At my local wall kids in instructed groups have to wear helmets, although novices on "learn to climb" courses don't. The main reasons I can think of are 1) helps everyone (centre staff + other climbers) identify people who might be liable to wander into a hazardous area, and 2) possible less resilient heads if there is an impact? (I don't know if the latter is true).

In reply to tiffanykate12:

i wonder how high the wall you work at is ? some years ago i was climbing at one of the higher lead walls in the uk . we were climbing as a 3 and alternating leads. one of the 3 had just done very well in a high profile sporting event (not climbing) . people were generally chatting ,congratulating , back slapping him , brown nosing and most crucially "distracting" him, coming up to chat when he was belaying etc. we were taking the p£ss and very sillyly didnt say "come on £$$%% pay attention ". anyway just before his go, his phone, in his bag, went off and he answered it and without thinking put it in his pocket afterwards. it was one of those old nokia bricks. it didnt half smash into a lot of bits when it hit the ground behind me from 14 ish metres off the deck.
my point ? if i worked 8 hours a day in any job where something random might fall out the sky and hit me on the head , i would wear a helmet. i would n t be waiting for somebody to tell me i had to. if the helemt my employer provided didnt suit ? i d buy one that did.

In reply to tiffanykate12:

The wall I work at doesn't put anyone in helmets as we have quite a few autobelays. The chance of someone forgetting to take a helmet off before going on the auto, or people tripping over them, cause they are left lying in daft places, is too high.
I've never come across an incident in out wall where I wished we did have them on.
I used to work at a place that was built into the top of a shopping centre, and kids sometimes fiddled with helmets and loosened them off, and they occasionally fell into the shopping centre below, so massive hazard for unsuspecting public!!

In reply to tiffanykate12:


Bless. Try doing 12-16 hour shifts in a boiler room with some cruddy hard hat on your head that weighs three times as much as a climbing helmet and has no ventilation in it. THAT becomes an uncomfortable distraction, especially after 9 years of it.


Anyway, in answer to your question, I think instructors should lead by example and wear a helmet if they expect the children to. Buy yourself a more comfortable helmet if it's a problem wearing it all day.

In reply to mike123:

The wall's only about 12m. I definitely appreciate your point, but in 2+ years I've not had any occasion where I've wished I was wearing one. Though I may have just been lucky.

In reply to tiffanykate12:

At my home wall all instructors wear helmet and so when I went and worked at another where they had a policy of instructors deciding whether or not they wanted to wear one (with none of them wearing them). I found it odd and really thought that really as an instructor you should wear one.

I always wear a helmet when I’m instructing indoors. Just because you are indoors, it does not mean you aren’t going to get hit on the head by something. It happens with clients or other climbers still having things in their pockets, shoes coming off the feet of kids, and even once another climbers belay plate coming off their harness whilst they were climbing.

Common sense to wear a helmet. Sets an example, and still (although a lot more unlikely indoors) protects you from falling objects.

In reply to tiffanykate12:

Don't forget that mobile could easily hit a hold on the way down, shatter and have someone's eye out.

Goggles or lexan specs would be the way forwards or a helmet with a visor like the alpine shield.

5.10 are working on the Anasteeli with built in toe protection but they won't be available til the summer.

In reply to winhill:







Despite the cynicism this is another thing I think about - drawing a line of safety in a health&safety-mad country. Of course I'm all for protecting children, and am completely on board with them having helmets (the number of kids I've had get distracted and hit their head on a ledge..!)