UKC

Retainer or no retainer on slingdraws

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 jack_44 17 Jan 2014
Hi all,

I have some slingdraws in my rack, and I would like to ask for some advice on whether to use a retainer or not. I have seen the video of the horror stories of using a simple rubber ring or elastic band, but thinking of using the petzl "strings". Just thinking if it would be awkward without a retainer with the karabiner being free to rotate and move about?

Any advice welcome.

Thank you.
 forcan 17 Jan 2014
In reply to jack_44:

It's a personal choice - I don't, as I like to be able to use the slings for other purposes without faffing about with retainers.

Retainers: Brilliant on quickdraws, not so much on slingdraws.
 crayefish 17 Jan 2014
In reply to jack_44:

Never had a problem with the krab being 'loose' personally, but I am not climbing high enough winter grades to have to clip quickly while pumped on some crux move. When you have a 60cm sling (or 30 etc) the thing flops about a lot anyway so not sure if the rubber would make much difference, particularly if using skinny dyneema slings. Plus not having one means you can quickly use the sling for other purposes if you run out of racked slings.
 csw 17 Jan 2014
In reply to jack_44:

I use a retainer on mine and it makes them much easier to use.
 mattrm 17 Jan 2014
In reply to jack_44:

No retainer. The lack of retainer has never been an issue for me.
In reply to jack_44: I've never really had a need to use them, so its always been a no from me. I wouldn't have any problems using them though !

 CurlyStevo 17 Jan 2014
In reply to jack_44:

with a retainer I think the risk of rubber part being the only thing keeping the sling on to the biner is too high.
 fire_munki 17 Jan 2014
In reply to jack_44:

I'd not use one, but I like to be able to grab both krabs off it if needed or use just the sling.
 steveth 17 Jan 2014
In reply to jack_44:

No retainer. Sometimes the krab moving is an irritation, sometimes it's fine but on balance it's safer without.

ST
 Mountain Llama 17 Jan 2014
In reply to jack_44:

the retainers are adding a risk that's one of the reasons I do not use them. The other reason is that if you have a retainer you can NOT simply remove from harness clip protection, unclip other krab any simply clip any section of sling and pull out to extend
 timjones 17 Jan 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> with a retainer I think the risk of rubber part being the only thing keeping the sling on to the biner is too high.

I wouldn't use a commercially available retainer for this reason.

However I find it useful to have a retainer on the upper/gear krab so I use tape around the sling for about 3 inches below the krab. It does the same job as a retainer but it is impossible to invert it and wind up hanging on the retainer without it becoming obvious that something is wrong.
 deepsoup 17 Jan 2014
In reply to jack_44:
I'm currently using a retainer.

I used to use little rubber bands, but after those horrible accidents I swapped them for a little bit of rubber tubing (formerly the grippy bit on a plastic pencil), which makes it really obvious if the retainer is the only thing holding the karabiner:
http://www.deepsoup.f2s.com/UKC/slingdraw3.JPG

My regular climbing partner doesn't like my slingdraws though, so I've been thinking of ditching them.
 ablackett 17 Jan 2014
In reply to jack_44:

I used a sling draw with a retainer once on my second highest bit of gear. Lowered off the route, the draw was set up wrong (or I had used it wrong)and it snapped, If I had decided to lower off a few moves lower and not put the top gear in I could have died.

Not worth the risk. Get rid of the silly elastic bands on sling drawers.
 David Coley 17 Jan 2014
In reply to jack_44:

Jack,
I believe in experimentation, and that the answer often depends on the person.
How about you put retainers on some, but not others and see what difference it makes over the next few months.
 CurlyStevo 17 Jan 2014
In reply to deepsoup:

I'm not sure it would be really obvious if that happened whilst it was tripled up in your bag (and if it was then clipped tripled up), unlikely I know but possible and potentially hard to spot.
 CurlyStevo 17 Jan 2014
In reply to timjones:

but you don't want to fix the gear end as it increases the likely hood that the gear will get wobbled out. Also as mentioned this would be less obvious if it happened with the sling draw tripled up.
 deepsoup 17 Jan 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Having experimented with it quite a bit, I'm satisfied that it would be really obvious. (Or obvious enough, to me, at least.)
 timjones 17 Jan 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:
> but you don't want to fix the gear end as it increases the likely hood that the gear will get wobbled out. Also as mentioned this would be less obvious if it happened with the sling draw tripled up.

It doesn't fix the gear, it fixes the sling to the krab. The draw acts o the gear in exactly the same way but it's easier to use IME.

I'm not sure what you think would be less obvious if it happened with the sling tripled up. There is always a risk that one strand could become unclipped whilst tripled up. For this reason I am more nervous of using slingdraws tripled up than when extended but taping a reasonable length away from the krab actually reduces the risk of the taped strand coming unclipped IMO.
Post edited at 13:58
 GridNorth 17 Jan 2014
In reply to jack_44:

As long as you aware of the potential risks there is not a problem. I stopped doing it simply because I felt duty bound to advise my partners and to be honest that got a little tedious.
 CurlyStevo 17 Jan 2014
In reply to timjones:
"It doesn't fix the gear, it fixes the sling to the krab."

I was aware of that thanks

"The draw acts o the gear in exactly the same way but it's easier to use IME."

Don't tell me you are one of these oddballs ( ) that uses the rest of their draws fixed end in to the gear? There is a reason most people do this the other way around and the logic applies to sling draws (although is obviously more of an issue with stiff short draws)

"I'm not sure what you think would be less obvious if it happened with the sling tripled up."

When tripled up the retainer is more hidden and the other strands hide the fact that some of them are not where they are meant to be.

"There is always a risk that one strand could become unclipped whilst tripled up. For this reason I am more nervous of using slingdraws tripled up than when extended but taping a reasonable length away from the krab actually reduces the risk of the taped strand coming unclipped IMO.""

Ahh but when there is no retainer if you pull the sling draw its obvious if its not going to work because if it doesn't it lengthens out, with a retainer back clipped to the dangerous position it will keep the sling draw in roughly the position it would be so this is generally much less obvious.
Post edited at 14:12
 timjones 17 Jan 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> "It doesn't fix the gear, it fixes the sling to the krab."

> I was aware of that thanks

> "The draw acts o the gear in exactly the same way but it's easier to use IME."

> Don't tell me you are one of these oddballs that uses the rest of their draws fixed end in to the gear? There is a reason most people do this the other way around and the logic applies to sling draws (although is obviously more of an issue with stiff short draws)

Do you always call people with opposing views oddballs?

Of course I don't fix the krab on QDs they are a very different thing to open sling slingdraws.

> "I'm not sure what you think would be less obvious if it happened with the sling tripled up."

> When tripled up the retainer is more hidden and the other strands hide the fact that some of them are not where they are meant to be.

That's right but taping the top draw reduces the risk of this happening IMO. Try experimenting with it.

> "There is always a risk that one strand could become unclipped whilst tripled up. For this reason I am more nervous of using slingdraws tripled up than when extended but taping a reasonable length away from the krab actually reduces the risk of the taped strand coming unclipped IMO.""

> Ahh but when there is no retainer if you pull the sling draw its obvious if its not going to work because if it doesn't it lengthens out, with a retainer back clipped to the dangerous position it will keep the sling draw in roughly the position it would be so this generally much less obvious.

Try it for yourself. The retainer does not stop the sling lengthening if one of the other strands is unclipped.

It's all down to personal preference but you appear to be overhyping the risks.
 CurlyStevo 17 Jan 2014
In reply to timjones:
> Do you always call people with opposing views oddballs?

That was meant tongue in cheek I reread my post before you posted and added a smiley to help clear things up

> Of course I don't fix the krab on QDs they are a very different thing to open sling slingdraws.

So you don't fix either crab on a normal draw? I personally don't see any disadvantage to doing this and see some advantages.

> That's right but taping the top draw reduces the risk of this happening IMO. Try experimenting with it.

Disagree I have tried experimenting with it.

> Try it for yourself. The retainer does not stop the sling lengthening if one of the other strands is unclipped.

Yes I know that - you misunderstood my point. I was saying that if you had a tripled sling draw with a retainer that was back clipped in to the dangerous position (so the only thing holding the sling to the biner is a rubber band or piece of tape) , the sling draw may still on the surface appear to perform fairly normally until you weight it when it will not support body weight. If you have a sling draw without a retainer this is much less likely to happen as if one piece of the sling unclips in yr bag on the way to the crag the sling draw will normally open up when placed and not remain tripled.

> It's all down to personal preference but you appear to be overhyping the risks.

Well someone on this thread had a close call due to this set up and a top child climber died recently due to a similar issue. DMM/WC (can't remember which) also advised against doing this type of thing recently. I think you are underhyping the issues and over worrying about cross loading a biner. Anyway its the bottom biner on a draw that gets jiggled about the most the top biner is much less likely to cross load so fixing the top biner seems to me to be adding risk (all be it quite small) for very little advantage.
Post edited at 15:07
 rgold 17 Jan 2014
In reply to jack_44:

I tried it for a while (retainer on the rope-end carabiner; I can't see and haven't yet heard any good reason to put it on the other end). Like GridNorth, I found the obligatory full disclosure for partners and the need to check each draw carefully at the start of every climb increasingly tiresome, and some partners just didn't want to use the draws set up that way. Moreover, it really wasn't all that useful, I didn't find clipping, even in desperate situations, to be much easier most of the time, and I felt that the elongation process from tripled to full length ended up a mess more frequently with the rope-end carabiner bound in place.

All in all, the negatives seemed to outweigh the positives.
 timjones 17 Jan 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:
> That was meant tongue in cheek I reread my post before you posted and added a smiley to help clear things up

Noted

> So you don't fix either crab on a normal draw? I personally don't see any disadvantage to doing this and see some advantages.

I fix the bottom krab on a normal draw. It's a different thing to a slingdraw which is a compromise with some advantages to partially negate the disadvantages. Fixing the bottom krab on a sling draw makes it more fiddly to extend IME but fixing the top krab can provide some pother advantages.

> Disagree I have tried experimenting with it.

That's all part of lifes rich tapestry, we will all have different preferences

> Yes I know that - you misunderstood my point. I was saying that if you had a tripled sling draw with a retainer that was back clipped in to the dangerous position (so the only thing holding the sling to the biner is a rubber band or piece of tape) , the sling draw may still on the surface appear to perform fairly normally until you weight it when it will not support body weight. If you have a sling draw without a retainer this is much less likely to happen as if one piece of the sling unclips in yr bag on the way to the crag the sling draw will normally open up when placed and not remain tripled.

I think you are misunderstanding. In order to prevent backclipping I use a substantial length of tape covering about 3 inches of the sling, I do this because it's impossible for it to backclip in your pack or anywhere else. I don't use rubber retainers.

> Well someone on this thread had a close call due to this set up and a top child climber died recently due to a similar issue. DMM/WC (can't remember which) also advised against doing this type of thing recently. I think you are underhyping the issues and over worrying about cross loading a biner. Anyway its the bottom biner on a draw that gets jiggled about the most the top biner is much less likely to cross load so fixing the top biner seems to me to be adding risk (all be it quite small) for very little advantage.

Why do you assume I'm worrying about cross loading, I've not even mentioned it! I don't do it due to the risk of cross loading or to prevent the krabs jiggling about whilst they are in use. I do it because I find that it makes it easier to handle and extend the draws and I believe that it reduces the risk of inadvertantly dropping strands whilst the draws are on your harness. It also prevents you snagging a single strand and pulling the sling out to full length whilst the draw is on your harness IMO.
Post edited at 15:32
 Hooo 17 Jan 2014
In reply to jack_44:

I use a strip of 30mm finger tape round the sling to retain the rope end. I really like it, to extend the slingdraw I just grab the taped section and make sure the rest of the sling is out of the krab. If I need a loose sling I can just pull it apart and the tape rips off.
Using wide tape means that it would be very obvious if it had slipped into the "danger situation".
Credit - I got this idea from someones website, can't remember who though...
OP jack_44 18 Jan 2014
In reply to jack_44:

Thanks for the advice. I may give it a go with a retainer or tape on one or two and see how I like it compared to without.

Thanks again for the advice.

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