UKC

I'm off on a trad trip soon to do some long ish multi pitch routes 5-10 pitches. I think it's worth taking a small pack for descent shoes, water etc (possibly a bivi bag in case it hits the fan)

But not sure on what's a practical size in terms of taking enough stuff/not weighing me down or getting in the way while climbing. I'm thinking 10-15 litres?

anyone recommend a size or specific pack for this kind of job?

In reply to Kemics:

I've got one of these: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lowe-Alpine-Houdini-Pack-Black/sim/B003SHOTVI/2

Packs down to a package about 6" x 6" x 2", is light and tough, takes a bladder and can be used as a rope bucket.

In reply to Kemics:

I have a "Granite 16" from POD that does the job pretty well. Holds guidebook, water bottle and a light jacket, sit nicely away from harness & chalkbag and is stable.

In reply to Kemics:

It's now called the Illusionist. The best this about it is that it cxan be carried in a bigger rucksack or on it's own.

http://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/equipment-c3/rucksacks-c19/all-rucks...

In reply to Kemics:

Main thing I'd check is that you can still access both your chalkbag and the back of your harness when wearing it loaded.

I use a Deuter speedlite 10l for long multi pitch stuff. Easy access to snacks and water in the side pockets. Enough room for 2 pairs of trainers (if they aren't too bulky) plus a windproof, hat etc.
I'd also have a look at the drybag type rucsacs, probably the Exped Cloudbursts. No external pockets but that might be a plus.
Don't be tempted by the S2S sil rucsac. The straps become like cheesewire under load after a while.

In reply to Kemics:

Something like this works well http://www.rei.com/product/827110/rei-flash-18-pack doesn't cost much, and weighs next to nothing. I've seen not dissimilar things from Vango and Berghaus in the UK - all around 20 quid so again not super expensive.

One bag worked for us when climbing this summer in Norway http://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.fi/2013/09/stetinds-sydpilaren-south-pill... (scroll down to "tactics" and you can see how much we managed to get in).

In reply to SFM:



My mate has one - worked excellently for him on big ice climbs with a belay jacket and flask in it and they really do weigh next to nothing!

In reply to Kemics:

Without being facetious, how about putting the stuff you will probably be carrying together and then finding a sack you like that it will fit in with a bit to spare.

In reply to Robert Durran:

The problem is I tend to fill whatever bag to capacity, I need to limit myself otherwise I can convince myself almost anything is worth bringing

I like the look of the alpine low, will give it a shot.

Does anyone have experience of the black diamond bullet? That's looking promising too. I like a couple of the features, gear loops on the back for gear switches at belays (I'll be block leading) and a chest strap. I prefer to waist straps as I think it moves better with the body while climbing

In reply to Kemics:

Petzl bug? bombproof construction, lots of features and comfy too.
I'll sell you mine if you want it!

In reply to Kemics:

Where are the routes and what time of year?

In reply to David Coley:

Morocco in spring

Petzl buy does meet all the requirements except it's a bit ugly :P

In reply to TobyA:
I find the rei flash excellent.

In reply to TobyA:

He must have titanium shoulders...unlike me :O)
I guess over thicker clothing it can work then.

This is the one I had in mind
http://www.seatosummit.com/products/display/86

but I see that they have another style which might work
http://www.seatosummit.com/products/display/162

In reply to Kemics: I use a BD Speed 22 which is plenty big enough for a full day's gear but its isn't too big to be annoying when climbing.

Kinda pricey compared to the other suggestions though.

In reply to Kemics:

You have mail.

Have a great trip

In reply to Kemics:

I'd recommend the Gourdon 20, but they aren't selling that ATM. So the 25l one is nice and cheap.

https://www.alpkit.com/products/gourdon-25

Or this:

http://www.aiguillealpine.co.uk/cgi-bin/trolleyed_public.cgi?action=showpro...

On the few longer multipitch climbs I've embarked on (<8 pitch), we've tended to have the second carrying a larger pack (between 30l and 55l - cinched down in the bigger case), with the leader not carrying a pack or anything unnecessary to their climbing.

Surprising how much space you can consume between two people - two rain coats, two rain pants, two pairs of shoes, water and food for two people for a day, two head lamps, guidebook, phones, med kit, etc...

Though if we had a 10L we'd probably take that too, for a drink bottle and a rain coat with the leader.

In reply to Kemics:

I went to Needlesports with much the same question last summer. I ended up buying a Blue Ice Warthog, http://www.blueice.com/products/en/home/10-warthog-26l.html a lovely sac, very well thought out, you can just fit in enough kit for a day and it's very comfortable to climb in. Not cheap, but highly recommended.

In reply to Kemics:

Depending on the walk-off and the heat, we always try to climb without a sack. For something longer (Westpillaren, Lofoten - 13 pitches, for example) we take one small bag and the minimum amount of gear - two pairs of light shoes, 1 litre of water and some sweets.


Chris

In reply to Kemics:

Depends on numerous things...

Mainly approach, descent, temperature and grade.

If approach is long, best to put the harness, rack and perhaps some clothing in the sack -> most likely ~30 liter sack. Might be even bigger, if there's a glacier involved.

If the descent is by walking/scrambling, you need again to store the rack+stuff in the sack and obviously yer shoes. So perhaps 15 to 25 liters.

Cold, you'll need more space for clothing.

Grade, well if it easy for ya, both can wear a small bag (say 10 liters, includes shell jacket, water, some 1st aid stuff and snacks... perhaps them hiking shoes as well). If you're pushing the limit, leader will carry nothing or really light bag (water, snack-bar and shell) and the second will carry most of the stuff in a bigger bag.

So, this could mean anything from ~5 liter mini sack to say around 40 liters lightweight sack... Personally I have 3 options, Gourdon 20, Warthog 26 and some uber light 'Ryx @ 40 liters. I pick what ever seems appropriate.

In reply to Kemics:

http://bobwightman.co.uk/climb/gear.php?p=alp_gear

This chap used to post on UKC as Bob. He is a very authoritative and accomplished climber and has my total respect. He has some interesting things to say about choice of rucksack. (see above) Ok - so it is Alpine based, but you mentioned bivi gear which basically puts you back in the same ball park.

The short answer to your question is a bag of around 35 litres.

In reply to Kemics:

Sometimes I manage with a modified kids gym bag with a strap attached across the chest to stop the strings coming off the shoulders. I also have a pair of those very lightweight Evolve Crux shoes. With this combination even the string does not dig in but if I think I will need water and perhaps a spare top I use the Lowe Alpine Houdini with more substancial straps. I prefer this method to the second carrying everything. Unless I'm leading all the pitches of course.

In reply to ByEek:




Which can be summarised with his sentence "As a final example, I used a 35 litre sack when I climbed the North Face of the Eiger when we took food for three days."

In reply to Kemics:

I'm a bit puzzled by some of the suggestions you've received, which seem a little over-cautious for a 5-10 pitch rock route in benign conditions. I'd usually follow Chris Craggs' advice and not bother with a bag at all.

On a hard-for-us 18 pitch route with a moderate risk of dodgy weather and a complex descent, the second carried one of these: http://tinyurl.com/me5hovr It was ideally light and big enough for two litres of water, snacks, a thermal and lightweight trainers. My rope-gun models it here: http://tinyurl.com/m9qf2nb

Italian guides may ask you 'Dove si trova il picnic' but that shouldn't be an issue in Morocco.

In reply to Robert Durran:


That's not being facetious, that's being practical.

In reply to duncan:


Depends on your length of walk-in / out and also if you want to avoid having to return to the base of the climb. I found the Dry Ice Warthog ideal for a day in the fells combining a mountaineering route with a fell walk. E.g. I used it when I did Engineers Slab, then on to the top of Great Gable, super.

In reply to duncan:

That looks ideal for the money. Does it sit high on the back?

In reply to Kemics:

I have one of those totally rubbish promo gym bags - sort of like a flat-sewn stuff sack with a drawcord that also attaches to the corners. Fine for a pair of shoes or two and a bottle of water.

In winter, it takes a belay jacket and maybe a flask.

Weighs virtually nothing.

In reply to duncan:


+1

To the OP: Go light and try and make sure every item you are carrying has more than one use.

When I climbed in Morroco I only carried sacks up one route (Lion's Face) and that was because the decent didn't go back to the base of the route.

In an area with benign weather (ie Morocco) I would carry the following between two:
-Pair of lightweight approach shoes each - Fell running shoes are normally much lighter and better for descending grass. But I would wear 5.10 Guide Tennies somewhere rocky like Yosemite. If the climbing is well within your grade and a descent straight forward consider wearing big comfy rockshoes with sock and walking off wearing them.
-2 750ml water bottles (Don't share one bottle between two, as your partner might drink all your water!) Also clove hitch a small loop for 3mm cord round the top of the bottle so you can clip a krab to it if necessary. Maybe take twice as much water if you are in a very hot place (Yosemite) and your route is in the sun.
- a bag of sweets and a choc bar/flap jack each.
- a 2 metre length of 5mm cord and old krab. This is to clip the bag in at stances and can be used as abseil tat. (both of your chalk bags should also be carried on tat and if you need to make more than 3 abseils in a row (on your own gear) to get down you'll have to suck it up and ditch some rack. It is always worth having a few older slings/krabs on your rack that you don't mind leaving.

If it is late in the day/year take a head torch each.

If it is cold take a thin hat and a pair of thin leather plamed gloves each. The gloves should have a loop on them so you can clip them to your harness.

If you are somewhere where there is a chance of bad weather (Yosemite, The Alps, Lofoten, Dolomites) take a very light waterproof smock each. This can double as a windshirt and should fold into a pocket and clip to the back of your harness.

Dress light. On long alpine rock routes I normally wear a long sleeved thermal and a thin stretchy fleece. If it is very cold I might take a lightweight vest (Rab VR Lite is good). If you are carrying a waterproof you don't need a windshirt as well. That expensive softshell jacket looks great in the pub, but I bet it weighs a ton and is bulky if it gets hot and you have to take it off.

Ronhills look hideous, but are cheap light and good to climb in. Powerstretch tights are a good option if it is colder. I normally wear a pair of thin softshell trousers. Make sure you get a pair with a topo pocket.

If you are somewhere where there is a real chance of spending the night out. I might consider taking a small bothy bag. The one I have is the size of a chalk bag. If it was an bigger I wouldn't bother.

Don't take the guide book. Photo copy and laminate two copies of the routes
topo instead. That way you have one each so you can discuss your navigational errors 50m apart! Make sure you have a topo with the descent on too!

First Aid/emergencies.

Half used roll of finger tape, strips of ibuprofen and paracetamol. Mobile phone if I'm in a country where it works/have one.

Luxury items
Camera each. Get a small one that takes good pics like a Canon S100.


This should all fit into a a small 15 litre bag like the REI Flash. Though I would clip the gloves and waterproof to the back of my harness so they are always there if the weather turns.

As I've got plenty of time on my hands at the moment I might write a blog post on the subject.

HTH

In reply to Kemics:

For a route with a straightforward approach I'd take one tiny rucksack between the pair of you, carried by the second. With a short approach I'd gear up at the car clip trainers to harness, for a longer approach leave bags at the base/ junction with the descent. I sometimes walk in in big boots and carry some ultralight approach shoes (5.10 Daescents are my favourite) too, on really long days they provide some comfort on the easier pitches too. I use a BD Bullet, but they also do a smaller one which is even smaller and neater. I'm like you, I tend to fill a bag so starting tiny is the way to go.

For a route with long/ glaciated approach the Bullet would become the leader's bag and the second would carry something around 30l max, though in reality it is usually the smaller of the 'big' bags you've used to get up to the high camp or bivvy.

Going without a bag for 5 -7 pitches might be okay, depends how hard it is and how long you expect to take. If it's at all hard for you a bag means you can take food, water and extra clothing. It might make the second's time a bit harder but does mean you should be in decent shape for the hard climbing. Too often you arrive at the crux pitch dehydrated, cramping, cold etc., and I'd rather carry a small bag while seconding than lead with trainers, water bottle and wind proof hanging off my harness.