UKC

Looks like glaciers existed in the Cairngorms during the little ice age, possibly until the late 18th century:

http://www.scotsman.com/news/education/site-of-scotland-s-last-glacier-disc...

This is very exciting, and as the author of a new novel partly about this very subject it's nice to see I was (almost) right Professor Forbes would be proud!

In reply to Only a hill:

You could at least have linked to us, we've got better pictures! http://www.ukhillwalking.com/news/item.php?id=68660

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

Sorry, didn't notice that one! Great shot of the skier there.

In reply to Only a hill:

Thanks for the mention

I've not read Martin's paper (copy on the way to the printer as I type) but can remember from back when I was an undergrad that it was thought there may have been glaciers in the Northern Corries in the little Ice Age (hence the name of one of the corries which translates as corrie of the snows).

In reply to Only a hill:

You may find "Cool Britannia" by Adam Watson and Ian Cameron of some interest. All the facts about lingering snow patches/glacier sites are there! Despite its title it is mainly concerned with Scotland.

In reply to Only a hill:

I read somewhere that there was still a glacier in Coire Leis on Ben Nevis till the time of Waterloo.

Do these reports say specifically which Cairngorm corries had glaciers in them? If they do I can't see where. I assume we're talking about the Norries?

A few years back in about March I descended from the summit of Macdui to Loch Etchachan. That descent was more like a walk on an Alpine glacier than anything else I've ever done in Britain. I had to keep reminding myself that despite appearances, I didn't need to worry about crevasses. (At least, provided I kept away from Randkluften...)

In reply to Tim Chappell:

The paper by Martin Kirkbride et al gives evidence for a little ice age glacier in Coire an Lochain (over what's now the Great Slab). I've only skimmed the paper by Harrison et al but they argue for glaciers at the same time period in other Cairngorm corries (e.g. Garbh Choire Mor & Coire an t-Sneachda) and suggest that they may also have occurred elsewhere, mentioning Nevis & Aonach Mor.

In reply to Only a hill:

Actually I'm suprised they weren't around until later than that with the, until recently, permanent snow fields up in Gharb Coire/Braeriach.

As a matter of interest, when does a glacier stop being a glacier and become a permanent snow field?

In reply to Only a hill:

The new research is interesting and I believe only re enforces what was discovered well over 30 years ago by researchers investigating the growth of both lichens and plants in areas of old glaciers compared to non glaciated locations.

In reply to MikeR:

In simple terms... To be a glacier it needs to flow - essentially, there is an input of material (snow) at the top, which compresses under its own weight to form ice (which has a defined density, which I won't bore you with). This mass is then transferred down slope under gravity, where it melts. Glacier.

A permanent pile of snow either doesn't flow or won't be heavy enough to form ice.

Obviously there are complexities all over this, but that covers it in short.

In reply to Dave Perry:

They do quote a 1977 paper ("Did glaciers form in the Cairngorm Mountains in the 17th-18th centuries" by David Sugden)

In reply to MikeR:


Depending on local conditions (steepness, base temperature) it needs to be between 15 and 30m thick to flow.

In reply to ianstevens and Dave Kerr:
Thanks for that.

Shame they say they're not likely to return anytime soon.

In reply to MikeR:


The plot of my new novel concerns a report of a glacier being sighted in the Garbh Choire of Braeriach in 1847. I also think it's quite plausible, but as far as I know no direct evidence has come to light regarding a glacier in that location quite so late.


As Ian says, it's all about the steady downhill movement - a subtle but important distinction between a glacier and a semipermanent snow patch.

In reply to MikeR:

You're welcome. It's nice to have an opportunity to put my rather specific masters to use!

In reply to Only a hill: I once talked with a guy ten years or so ago who was very knowledgeable about all this. He was telling me that they had found rocks on Braeriach which had lichens on that only dated back to the 17th century and concluded those rocks had been covered by snow/ice continually up until then since the last ice age.

Did I once hear that a mini glacier began in Coire a'Bhastier during that mini ice age a few centuries ago, I'm sure Mr Lates will know?

In reply to Only a hill:

Both these papers refer to the little ice age & one of them defines this as circa 1300 - 1850 so 1847 is just in !

In reply to Doug:

Thanks for the executive summary

In reply to Only a hill:

The plot thickens:
http://www.mcofs.org.uk/news.asp?s=2&id=MCS-N11347&nc=Hill

In reply to Only a hill:

I remember when I first started climbing in the mid 60's reading a climbing article that said there was still permanent snow on Nevis north face, and that if it was 500ft higher it would be snow capped. Of course the latest place for permanent snow was in the Peak District at the bottom of Eldon Hole, it was still there in my descent in the late 60's.

In reply to Only a hill:
Maybe because it's an easy walk-in to Lochain, and there's often snow there, that's where the boffins/scientists/clever people decided to go to do their study, rather than face the longer and more difficult walk over to Braeriach etc...

Just a theory!!

In reply to peebles boy:

Several of the authors are very keen mountaineers (probably why they choose to study glaciers - I've been to some obscure corners of the Cairngorms with some of them in the past.

In reply to Only a hill:

The plot gets even thicker today: http://www.ukhillwalking.com/news/item.php?id=68669

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

Normally for most matters Cairngorm, I'd back Adam Watson's knowledge over almost anyone else (I've known him for many years although not very well & for a brief period we both worked at the same research institute). But in this case I also know some of the geomorphologists and they are on their home territory here while Adam is primarily an animal ecologist, albeit well informed on almost anything related to the natural history of the Cairngorms. I think Martin Kirkbride covers the criticisms quite well both in the paper itself & the 'news' piece on UKH.

Oddly if I hadn't been too busy during the day, I'd have posted something pointing out that I though that on this occasion Adam was wrong & suggesting you contacted Martin or one the other authors

In reply to Doug:

I don't think it matter who holds which opinion. The evidence and conclusions drawn from it and these data are the main point. Not whether someone has visited the hills in questions for X number of years.

I have great respect for AW's evidence and note that one paper doesn't not a story tell. It may be that the data are reviewed in the future and other conclusions drawn.

I am fairly happy to keep and open mind and not side with one person or another.

In reply to Saor Alba:

Maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been, the study of things like protalus ramparts, moraines etc is pretty much the speciality of the guys responsible for these papers so I would expect them to have thought of Adam's criticism before they published

In reply to Doug:

I understood that, don't worry. I just think it is, to some extent, irrelevant whether someone has mountaineering experience in Coire an Lochain *if* by the same token Exeter University is being quoted.

I have no problem with either view as I need to read the reports etc but have some questions in my head as to if computer models can be used to make such definite statements.