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I have a dispute with who I feel is an unreasonable neighbour regarding items in the hallway outside my flat. Yesterday I received this letter from the factors...
"Dear Owner,
We have been advised by a concerned owner that items are being left in the communal stairwell of your block.
We take this opportunity to remind all owners that the stairwell, corridors, and landings in the block are common to all owners and therefore items must not be stored or left in these areas. Doing so not only causes inconvenience to other residents and may pose a fire hazard, but may also adversely affect the decoration and carpeting in the stair. In addition, there is the possibility of injury being caused to an owner or a third party.
To prevent such situations we would therefore be grateful if owners could make alternative arrangements for storing items.
Please do not hesitate to contact our office should you have queries."
For reference, please see webpage for photo of said hallway...
http://www.spareroom.co.uk/flatshare/flatshare_detail.pl?flatshare_id=31575...
The women next door does not live there but is selling the flat. When I bought the flat, her tenant kept a garden storage box and bike in the hall way, one of the reasons I now do the same. It seems practical and inoffensive.
Comments?
"Dear Owner,
We have been advised by a concerned owner that items are being left in the communal stairwell of your block.
We take this opportunity to remind all owners that the stairwell, corridors, and landings in the block are common to all owners and therefore items must not be stored or left in these areas. Doing so not only causes inconvenience to other residents and may pose a fire hazard, but may also adversely affect the decoration and carpeting in the stair. In addition, there is the possibility of injury being caused to an owner or a third party.
To prevent such situations we would therefore be grateful if owners could make alternative arrangements for storing items.
Please do not hesitate to contact our office should you have queries."
For reference, please see webpage for photo of said hallway...
http://www.spareroom.co.uk/flatshare/flatshare_detail.pl?flatshare_id=31575...
The women next door does not live there but is selling the flat. When I bought the flat, her tenant kept a garden storage box and bike in the hall way, one of the reasons I now do the same. It seems practical and inoffensive.
Comments?
In reply to David Barratt:
Depends on the terms of your lease. If it's not in your rental agreement, you don't have to do anything. (I suspect it's not, because the factors don't say it is--if they could make that point I imagine they would.)
But even then you could be nice, and say that though you're causing no inconvenience, fire hazard, trip hazard, or damage to the decor, you're happy to move your stuff pro tem while the lady next door is selling (which is probably why this has come up).
Depends on the terms of your lease. If it's not in your rental agreement, you don't have to do anything. (I suspect it's not, because the factors don't say it is--if they could make that point I imagine they would.)
But even then you could be nice, and say that though you're causing no inconvenience, fire hazard, trip hazard, or damage to the decor, you're happy to move your stuff pro tem while the lady next door is selling (which is probably why this has come up).
Post edited at 18:50
In reply to Tim Chappell:
I did already make an effort to tidy the hall a while back and WOULD have been happy to assist further in her sale, but as it happens, rather than knock on the door and ask politely, she picked items up and binned them, including the plant shown! I am the owner so no rental agreement. I had even phoned the factor to clarify if it was ok before Christmas and they said fine as long as it's not blocking things. I could try and be nice and move things on days she has viewings... but not sure I should with her behaviour!
I did already make an effort to tidy the hall a while back and WOULD have been happy to assist further in her sale, but as it happens, rather than knock on the door and ask politely, she picked items up and binned them, including the plant shown! I am the owner so no rental agreement. I had even phoned the factor to clarify if it was ok before Christmas and they said fine as long as it's not blocking things. I could try and be nice and move things on days she has viewings... but not sure I should with her behaviour!
In reply to Tim Chappell:
For reference, this was my reply. It's a bit lengthy!!
To xxx Services,
I received a letter today regarding items being left in the communal stairwell of my block. I assume the letter refers to items I have neatly stored in the wide hallway outside my flat. I have attached a photo showing the items concerned.
When I viewed this property with a view of buying it back in the summer of 2013, a bike and a garden storage box as well as a cast-iron planter were located in the hallway. Far from offended, I was delighted to see there was somewhere to store my bike and availability of additional storage. If I had been aware that neighbouring property owner was quite so sensitive, I'd have reconsidered my decision to buy. A quick glance at other blocks in the development also shows bikes being stored in the communal hallways.
I am aware the neighbour, who does not live in the property, raised the topic with me on one occasion, to which I stated that I would try and keep things tidy to facilitate her showing potential buyers or tenants round. Rather than subsequently knock on our door and politely ask if we could go a step further in tiding the hallway, Items including the plant shown, and the cast iron planter which I have since donated to a recycling centre, were removed and placed in the bins outside. I would equate the removal of my personal items without consent or consultation as theft. However, I decided not to take the matter any further, as I found the items again.
I consider the current arrangement outside my property to be neither an inconvenience to other residents, nor a fire hazard. Access to the window, doors, and stopcock is kept clear. Nor do I consider the items to adversely impact the decoration and carpeting of the property, to the contrary, I feel the items, particularly the plant, improve the properties appeal.
I should also note that when the items were first raised by my non-resident neighbour, I phoned Hacking and Paterson to seek clarity. I was assured that as long as the items did not cause an obstruction to exits or sockets, the issue would be of no concern, and was a matter of neighbour agreement and common sense.
I also note that an unknown individual, who I can only assume is the non-resident neighbour, kindly placed the plant within a blue pot. I assume this was a gift, but no note was left. If a refund is required, I would ask the individual to let us know through writing or other, as no previous communications have been attempted.
As I hope I have demonstrated, the hallway is tidy and in no way an inconvenience to anyone. As the neighbouring property is for sale, I am happy to discuss the items with any new residents, but for the time being consider the matter closed.
For reference, this was my reply. It's a bit lengthy!!
To xxx Services,
I received a letter today regarding items being left in the communal stairwell of my block. I assume the letter refers to items I have neatly stored in the wide hallway outside my flat. I have attached a photo showing the items concerned.
When I viewed this property with a view of buying it back in the summer of 2013, a bike and a garden storage box as well as a cast-iron planter were located in the hallway. Far from offended, I was delighted to see there was somewhere to store my bike and availability of additional storage. If I had been aware that neighbouring property owner was quite so sensitive, I'd have reconsidered my decision to buy. A quick glance at other blocks in the development also shows bikes being stored in the communal hallways.
I am aware the neighbour, who does not live in the property, raised the topic with me on one occasion, to which I stated that I would try and keep things tidy to facilitate her showing potential buyers or tenants round. Rather than subsequently knock on our door and politely ask if we could go a step further in tiding the hallway, Items including the plant shown, and the cast iron planter which I have since donated to a recycling centre, were removed and placed in the bins outside. I would equate the removal of my personal items without consent or consultation as theft. However, I decided not to take the matter any further, as I found the items again.
I consider the current arrangement outside my property to be neither an inconvenience to other residents, nor a fire hazard. Access to the window, doors, and stopcock is kept clear. Nor do I consider the items to adversely impact the decoration and carpeting of the property, to the contrary, I feel the items, particularly the plant, improve the properties appeal.
I should also note that when the items were first raised by my non-resident neighbour, I phoned Hacking and Paterson to seek clarity. I was assured that as long as the items did not cause an obstruction to exits or sockets, the issue would be of no concern, and was a matter of neighbour agreement and common sense.
I also note that an unknown individual, who I can only assume is the non-resident neighbour, kindly placed the plant within a blue pot. I assume this was a gift, but no note was left. If a refund is required, I would ask the individual to let us know through writing or other, as no previous communications have been attempted.
As I hope I have demonstrated, the hallway is tidy and in no way an inconvenience to anyone. As the neighbouring property is for sale, I am happy to discuss the items with any new residents, but for the time being consider the matter closed.
In reply to David Barratt:
She's been a bit unreasonable. It's always a good idea (for one's own stress levels) not to retaliate...
Have you got what the factor said in writing? And is the law on your side? I don't know, but that letter does look quite a weak and pleady one. It's very noticeable that it doesn't say "The law says X so you must do Y", which lawyers/ factors always will say if they can.
Citizens' Advice Bureau are probably worth a buzz.
She's been a bit unreasonable. It's always a good idea (for one's own stress levels) not to retaliate...
Have you got what the factor said in writing? And is the law on your side? I don't know, but that letter does look quite a weak and pleady one. It's very noticeable that it doesn't say "The law says X so you must do Y", which lawyers/ factors always will say if they can.
Citizens' Advice Bureau are probably worth a buzz.
In reply to David Barratt:
They've asked you nicely, I'd move my stuff if I was you. Once next door has been sold you could chat to new owner and ask if they mind if you put it back. Digging your heels in now won't achieve anything.
They've asked you nicely, I'd move my stuff if I was you. Once next door has been sold you could chat to new owner and ask if they mind if you put it back. Digging your heels in now won't achieve anything.
I'm not sure about the legal stance... It would be a massive inconvenience to me to move the stuff as I don't really have space in the flat for a bike and box. I feel it looks quite good personally. might give citizens advice a call, but if it continues, propose shifting on days of viewing, given notice etc.
In reply to David Barratt:
It's a difficult one - you don't own the hallway although as a group you and your neighbours do own the hallway. A bit of hallways storage is normal but the carpet(?) might get manky due to an averagely manky bikes. I expect the hallway is the sole exit so there proabbly are fire regs that say it must be empty.
Common areas should be mentioned in the deeds.
It's a difficult one - you don't own the hallway although as a group you and your neighbours do own the hallway. A bit of hallways storage is normal but the carpet(?) might get manky due to an averagely manky bikes. I expect the hallway is the sole exit so there proabbly are fire regs that say it must be empty.
Common areas should be mentioned in the deeds.
In reply to David Barratt:
You say "factors" which suggests you are in Scotland? If so I don't know Scottish Law, but if you are in England or Wales it's not uncommon for there to be a ban on using common areas for storage. The reason is as you have allured to "fire escape". There should be nothing which impedes escape bearing in mind that it may be impossible to see anything due to smoke. Things like bicycles, push chairs etc are generally a complete no no.
As others have suggested you need to check your lease terms, generally you will see that you have a right to use common corridors and stairs for access purposes only, but no right of storage will be permitted in these areas. You might also check with your local fire brigade as this may not be permissible under local bye law legislation.
You say "factors" which suggests you are in Scotland? If so I don't know Scottish Law, but if you are in England or Wales it's not uncommon for there to be a ban on using common areas for storage. The reason is as you have allured to "fire escape". There should be nothing which impedes escape bearing in mind that it may be impossible to see anything due to smoke. Things like bicycles, push chairs etc are generally a complete no no.
As others have suggested you need to check your lease terms, generally you will see that you have a right to use common corridors and stairs for access purposes only, but no right of storage will be permitted in these areas. You might also check with your local fire brigade as this may not be permissible under local bye law legislation.
I'm having a read of the land register document. They don't half say some odd stuff. I'm not allowed poultry, ducks, pigeons, rabbits, bees, or other livestock!
In reply to David Barratt:
That's standard. What else does it say though re communal areas?
If you are not legally permitted to use it as an exclusive extension of your flat, then your are not permitted to. This is a matter of law probably contained in your title and may or may not involve the feu superior, and/or different legislation.
A new owner may not have the same opinion as she does. The factors are probably pointing out what the actual position actually is (your title will tell you?) and it is reasonable for them to tell you how it is following a complaint. (They will be covering their back in case the proverbial hits the fan for whatever reason). Whether they are really interested or not is an entirely separate matter, but they have acted reasonably following a complaint. They or she or others no doubt will pursue a claim against you if you have damaged shared property/affected her value, cause losses to others, are negligent, culpable, etc, if they can. That aside, unless you are on a floor where there is no through traffic other than you and your neighbour, then you are certainly being inconsiderate using a communal area for personal extension of your flat.
If she is selling she wants it to be the way it should be according to title and reasonable expectation, and I am guessing that she and the factor know it should be clear and this is the first action to enforce clearing the stairwell.
The best would be to remove all from the landing if this is what the actual position says. Whether you chance it later when a new neighbour moves in and test the water with what their views are and if positive and not involving other neighbours, speak again to the factors. Even if they "agree" you could still be liable if fire hazard, etc. Just because it was done before you bought does not make it right legally and morally if you are not permitted to do so.
CAB will not be of any help really so don't bother them - they are really extremely busy local to you. It is a legal matter matter anyway. Either you are allowed to use it as you are or your are not. Even if you are there will be limits and constraints. Seek legal advice if you want to challenge the factor. Risk it if you want, or seek legal advice and act on that advice.
As you have just bought most solicitors handling purchases have a small run period for legal advice connected to title queries so you maybe even advised for free by you purchasing solicitor?
> I'm having a read of the land register document. They don't half say some odd stuff. I'm not allowed poultry, ducks, pigeons, rabbits, bees, or other livestock!
That's standard. What else does it say though re communal areas?
If you are not legally permitted to use it as an exclusive extension of your flat, then your are not permitted to. This is a matter of law probably contained in your title and may or may not involve the feu superior, and/or different legislation.
A new owner may not have the same opinion as she does. The factors are probably pointing out what the actual position actually is (your title will tell you?) and it is reasonable for them to tell you how it is following a complaint. (They will be covering their back in case the proverbial hits the fan for whatever reason). Whether they are really interested or not is an entirely separate matter, but they have acted reasonably following a complaint. They or she or others no doubt will pursue a claim against you if you have damaged shared property/affected her value, cause losses to others, are negligent, culpable, etc, if they can. That aside, unless you are on a floor where there is no through traffic other than you and your neighbour, then you are certainly being inconsiderate using a communal area for personal extension of your flat.
If she is selling she wants it to be the way it should be according to title and reasonable expectation, and I am guessing that she and the factor know it should be clear and this is the first action to enforce clearing the stairwell.
The best would be to remove all from the landing if this is what the actual position says. Whether you chance it later when a new neighbour moves in and test the water with what their views are and if positive and not involving other neighbours, speak again to the factors. Even if they "agree" you could still be liable if fire hazard, etc. Just because it was done before you bought does not make it right legally and morally if you are not permitted to do so.
CAB will not be of any help really so don't bother them - they are really extremely busy local to you. It is a legal matter matter anyway. Either you are allowed to use it as you are or your are not. Even if you are there will be limits and constraints. Seek legal advice if you want to challenge the factor. Risk it if you want, or seek legal advice and act on that advice.
As you have just bought most solicitors handling purchases have a small run period for legal advice connected to title queries so you maybe even advised for free by you purchasing solicitor?
In reply to Climbing Pieman:
Thanks, there's a lot to read in the land register document! I suspect I might not have the legal high ground, but what an annoying neighbour.
Also, out of context, some of the wording is brilliant!
"...the Property Manager shall have power to order them to be executed forthwith..."
I'll keep reading
Thanks, there's a lot to read in the land register document! I suspect I might not have the legal high ground, but what an annoying neighbour.
Also, out of context, some of the wording is brilliant!
"...the Property Manager shall have power to order them to be executed forthwith..."
I'll keep reading
In reply to David Barratt:
The joys of titles and their wording and the joys of living in flats! I am visiting a friend near you tomorrow and his neighbour takes up nearly half of his landing with bikes, walking boots, other footwear, etc . I usually smile when I see it with all their footwear positioned all around their doorway!
The joys of titles and their wording and the joys of living in flats! I am visiting a friend near you tomorrow and his neighbour takes up nearly half of his landing with bikes, walking boots, other footwear, etc . I usually smile when I see it with all their footwear positioned all around their doorway!
Post edited at 20:13
In reply to Climbing Pieman:
Definitely an annoying neighbour, but you may have to yield as they possibly have, as you say, the legal highground.
Definitely an annoying neighbour, but you may have to yield as they possibly have, as you say, the legal highground.
The only bit I can find is;
"The Proprietor of a Flat shall have an equal right of property in common with the other proprietors of the Flats in a Block to the Common Parts of the Block."
can't find anything ruling out use for storage. Early start to go north in the morning so will have another read on Sunday.
"The Proprietor of a Flat shall have an equal right of property in common with the other proprietors of the Flats in a Block to the Common Parts of the Block."
can't find anything ruling out use for storage. Early start to go north in the morning so will have another read on Sunday.
In reply to David Barratt:
That doesn't only not rule out the permissibility of storage; it positively rules it in. The only qualification would be that other residents can exercise their right to the common areas by complaining if they don't like it...
That doesn't only not rule out the permissibility of storage; it positively rules it in. The only qualification would be that other residents can exercise their right to the common areas by complaining if they don't like it...
In reply to Tim Chappell:
Unlikely. That is ignoring factor powers and rights which will probably be enshrined in the title.
> That doesn't only not rule out the permissibility of storage; it positively rules it in. The only qualification would be that other residents can exercise their right to the common areas by complaining if they don't like it...
Unlikely. That is ignoring factor powers and rights which will probably be enshrined in the title.
In reply to David Barratt:
But in addition you need to look at other things and particularly factor powers and rights as they will (probably) if stated in title be the ones who can dictate/enforce any rules to meet other requirements like risk assessments and obligations under various pieces of legislation. Personally I fully expect you are on a hiding to nothing and the factor if the titles were properly legally constituted is well within their powers to rule nothing in communal areas. You can (usually) as a group of owners sack the factor and reappoint a.n.other.
Even if the factor does not have the full rights, you as well as all the other owners/occupies will have the legal obligation to satisfy all relevant legislation and that will include fire risk assessment of communal areas and that normally means nothing stored in communal areas. This is common in flatted developments. The governments own website says
"As a resident of the building, you are responsible for ensuring that common stairs are kept clear of obstruction and flammable materials. If in doubt, or if you wish to report any obstructions or flammable materials, contact your housing association or responsible factors. Remember this is your escape route."
> The only bit I can find is;
> "The Proprietor of a Flat shall have an equal right of property in common with the other proprietors of the Flats in a Block to the Common Parts of the Block."
> can't find anything ruling out use for storage. Early start to go north in the morning so will have another read on Sunday.
But in addition you need to look at other things and particularly factor powers and rights as they will (probably) if stated in title be the ones who can dictate/enforce any rules to meet other requirements like risk assessments and obligations under various pieces of legislation. Personally I fully expect you are on a hiding to nothing and the factor if the titles were properly legally constituted is well within their powers to rule nothing in communal areas. You can (usually) as a group of owners sack the factor and reappoint a.n.other.
Even if the factor does not have the full rights, you as well as all the other owners/occupies will have the legal obligation to satisfy all relevant legislation and that will include fire risk assessment of communal areas and that normally means nothing stored in communal areas. This is common in flatted developments. The governments own website says
"As a resident of the building, you are responsible for ensuring that common stairs are kept clear of obstruction and flammable materials. If in doubt, or if you wish to report any obstructions or flammable materials, contact your housing association or responsible factors. Remember this is your escape route."
In reply to David Barratt:
Could you be seen to compromise and keep the bike in a bike bag in your flat, and perhaps move the plant too, and see what happens about the box?
Personally I'd try and yield a bit so I'd have the energies to spare in thinking about and doing other things.
Could you be seen to compromise and keep the bike in a bike bag in your flat, and perhaps move the plant too, and see what happens about the box?
Personally I'd try and yield a bit so I'd have the energies to spare in thinking about and doing other things.
Post edited at 23:21
In reply to David Barratt:
Strictly to the letter of the law, your neighbour is probably right. The common parts of a group of flats are normally the property of the freeholder so therefore not part of your title. Anything you leave there you've effectively left outside of your property, so I'd check any contents insurance to see if it covers stuff you're leaving there. Regarding fire safety it's not so much things getting in the way if it's a wide hallway and your stuff is secure - the minimum required escape width in small premises is surprisingly narrow (750mm if under 60 people use it). The issue is more that the escape route is not supposed to contain anything that could be used to start a fire, burns well or can spread flames along it's surface. The idea being that the escape route is practically guaranteed to never have a fire in it - it's debatable whether furniture and effects should be excluded from escape routes since the building regs deals with the flammability of the building materials used on the walls and ceilings rather than furniture, but that's the angle they're coming from.
Anyhow, I seem to be rambling.
Strictly to the letter of the law, your neighbour is probably right. The common parts of a group of flats are normally the property of the freeholder so therefore not part of your title. Anything you leave there you've effectively left outside of your property, so I'd check any contents insurance to see if it covers stuff you're leaving there. Regarding fire safety it's not so much things getting in the way if it's a wide hallway and your stuff is secure - the minimum required escape width in small premises is surprisingly narrow (750mm if under 60 people use it). The issue is more that the escape route is not supposed to contain anything that could be used to start a fire, burns well or can spread flames along it's surface. The idea being that the escape route is practically guaranteed to never have a fire in it - it's debatable whether furniture and effects should be excluded from escape routes since the building regs deals with the flammability of the building materials used on the walls and ceilings rather than furniture, but that's the angle they're coming from.
Anyhow, I seem to be rambling.
In reply to David Barratt:
While it may sound a bit harsh (as what you are doing is hardly affecting anyone apart from the viewings perhaps), I personally don't think that arguments like 'has always been like this' or 'others do it too' stand. Especially saying that you might have not bought the flat if you had been made aware etc - it's up to you to find out what you can and cannot do when buying a place and if it was that important to you, you should have checked it out - to be honest I have a feeling you knew that 'technically' you weren't supposed to keep them there.
Of course, as you mentioned too, I also don't get why some people can't just knock on the door and talk face to face to resolve such matters but I guess everyone deals with things in different ways in life.
While it may sound a bit harsh (as what you are doing is hardly affecting anyone apart from the viewings perhaps), I personally don't think that arguments like 'has always been like this' or 'others do it too' stand. Especially saying that you might have not bought the flat if you had been made aware etc - it's up to you to find out what you can and cannot do when buying a place and if it was that important to you, you should have checked it out - to be honest I have a feeling you knew that 'technically' you weren't supposed to keep them there.
Of course, as you mentioned too, I also don't get why some people can't just knock on the door and talk face to face to resolve such matters but I guess everyone deals with things in different ways in life.
Thanks everyone for your input. I got a reply to my response.
"Dear Mr Barratt
The letter was sent on the request of an owner within your building. As the stairwell, corridors and landings in the block are common to all owners, if an owner feels that it is an inconvenience we are obliged to advise all owners of this. We cannot however remove any items or force owner to remove items.
I note your comments and thank you for raising your concerns.
Kind Regards
xxx"
So... should I suggest a compromise or just leave it?
"Dear Mr Barratt
The letter was sent on the request of an owner within your building. As the stairwell, corridors and landings in the block are common to all owners, if an owner feels that it is an inconvenience we are obliged to advise all owners of this. We cannot however remove any items or force owner to remove items.
I note your comments and thank you for raising your concerns.
Kind Regards
xxx"
So... should I suggest a compromise or just leave it?
In reply to David Barratt:
I feel I should point out the 'xxx' are not kisses! Just thought I'd better not use their name.
I feel I should point out the 'xxx' are not kisses! Just thought I'd better not use their name.
In reply to David Barratt:
But you used their name further down Seems like H&P don't intend on doing anything about it other than the letter. Just keep things tidy, or put up a notice asking to come and speak to you if the items are offending in any way.
But you used their name further down Seems like H&P don't intend on doing anything about it other than the letter. Just keep things tidy, or put up a notice asking to come and speak to you if the items are offending in any way.
In reply to craig1983:
They signed it with their personal name rather than H&P, I asssume the secretary or something... I'll see how things go!
They signed it with their personal name rather than H&P, I asssume the secretary or something... I'll see how things go!
In reply to David Barratt:
I think you may have to put this down to experience. I would imagine that in your purchase documentation, there was nothing about storage in the communal areas. It is all very well seeing that people are informally using them for storage, but now you are in a dispute, sadly you don't have a leg to stand on.
I wish you the best.
> When I viewed this property with a view of buying it back in the summer of 2013, a bike and a garden storage box as well as a cast-iron planter were located in the hallway. Far from offended, I was delighted to see there was somewhere to store my bike and availability of additional storage. If I had been aware that neighbouring property owner was quite so sensitive, I'd have reconsidered my decision to buy. A quick glance at other blocks in the development also shows bikes being stored in the communal hallways.
I think you may have to put this down to experience. I would imagine that in your purchase documentation, there was nothing about storage in the communal areas. It is all very well seeing that people are informally using them for storage, but now you are in a dispute, sadly you don't have a leg to stand on.
I wish you the best.
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