In reply to Jon Stewart:
> They are in terms of the assertion I responded to about Labour crashing the economy and the Tories sorting it out.
> What a bizarre view of the world. You see the Tories fundamentally rethinking the welfare system so that it always pays to work. That, of course, is common sense and consensus. Do you honestly believe that the policy under Labour was deliberately to create a mess with multiple sweet-spots where you were better off on benefits? Of course not, it was just well-intentioned but ineffective policy with unintended consequences.
Exactly!! It was as foolish and self defeating as bailing out British Leyland etc in the 1970s to "save jobs"and,of course, win votes. It's destructive short termism. Beveridge himself could and did predict the consequences of such policies but the Labour party chose to ignore the obvious.
> The idea that there is fundamental rethink going on is a joke. DWP have wanted something along the lines of Universal Credit for decades, they're not thick! What the Tories are doing is just snipping away at benefits for people who won't vote by for them (justified politically by the dishonest and stomach turning "scroungers" rhetoric that has been tragically lapped up) while the department tries to "make hay" by getting some sensible reforms implemented now they're free of the last lot.
Yes, and both parties knew the unions needed controlling for 20 years before it was done.
You've have entirely missed the tension within the Conservative party. He may be thick etc but IDS has a messianic belief in the potential for his reforms to improve peoples' lives by making work the rational option. The education reforms are designed to make people unemployable, particularly when competing for jobs against better educated and motivated immigrants. Osborne, as you suggest, seems more interested in reducing the deficit and winning votes, hence his rhetoric (which IDS hates)
However, as you have noted above, the Labour party plays just the same rhetorical games in headlining populist but mad policies and demonising certains sections of society.
> You don't just give the Tories the benefit of the doubt, you present a fantasy world in which they're transforming society for the better, with true intentions. Give it a rest! All they want is to save a few bob and get reelected, a child could see that.
Your view is irredeemably jaundiced by your personal prejudices. I'm not pretending the Conservative party is full of saints but nor, as so many believe, is it full of devils. They simply have a view that the system should be reformed to enable people to realise their potential and minimise their dependence on the State.
Just as the "left" could only see the negative side of letting British Leyland stand or fall on its own merits they can only see the negative-the pain and disruption caused by the transition, of welfare reform.