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Today I looked down when top roping at a wall, and saw that my belayer had only one hand on the rope (on the dead rope). He has a standard, simple belay device (not a gri gri). He was distracted looking at something, so I had to actively get his attention, and asked him to use 2 hands. He laughed and refused.
I got him to lower me, and asked him again to belay using both hands, but he said one hand was perfectly safe. I wasn't comfortable with this, so I didn't climb after that, but he clearly thinks I'm nuts!
I've climbed for some years, and this has never cropped up before. Am I being over cautious?
I got him to lower me, and asked him again to belay using both hands, but he said one hand was perfectly safe. I wasn't comfortable with this, so I didn't climb after that, but he clearly thinks I'm nuts!
I've climbed for some years, and this has never cropped up before. Am I being over cautious?
In reply to cas54321:
One can safely lock off a belay device one-handed.
It is generally not safe to take in or pay out one handed.
A good belayer should not be sufficiently distracted that you must 'actively get his attention', though I admit it does happen.
One can safely lock off a belay device one-handed.
It is generally not safe to take in or pay out one handed.
A good belayer should not be sufficiently distracted that you must 'actively get his attention', though I admit it does happen.
In reply to cas54321:
If actively belaying with one hand, then I would agree with you.
If just locking off with one hand, then I wouldn't have a problem.
If actively belaying with one hand, then I would agree with you.
If just locking off with one hand, then I wouldn't have a problem.
In reply to cas54321:
Sloppy practice in my opinion. Your spare hand may as well do something and belaying with two hands on the important bit of rope is much safer than 1. You can lock a device off safely one handed-but not necessarily when the person next to you has fallen off and bashed your arm, or you've just been dragged up the wall and skinned your knuckles etc.
I don't really see what benefit the belayer gains from using one hand (do they think it looks cooler, or do they simply want to scratch their bum?!?!).
Perhaps try explaining to your belayer that you want to have confidence in them for you to enjoy your climbing and push yourself. If my partner didn't grasp this and then continued to laugh when the shortcomings in their technique were pointed out then I'd soon be looking for a new climbing partner.
Sloppy practice in my opinion. Your spare hand may as well do something and belaying with two hands on the important bit of rope is much safer than 1. You can lock a device off safely one handed-but not necessarily when the person next to you has fallen off and bashed your arm, or you've just been dragged up the wall and skinned your knuckles etc.
I don't really see what benefit the belayer gains from using one hand (do they think it looks cooler, or do they simply want to scratch their bum?!?!).
Perhaps try explaining to your belayer that you want to have confidence in them for you to enjoy your climbing and push yourself. If my partner didn't grasp this and then continued to laugh when the shortcomings in their technique were pointed out then I'd soon be looking for a new climbing partner.
In reply to cas54321:
Echo a number of the comments,
one hand on the rope - No problem
One hand on the rope while not paying attention - problem
though
2 hands on the rope while not paying attention - problem also
Echo a number of the comments,
one hand on the rope - No problem
One hand on the rope while not paying attention - problem
though
2 hands on the rope while not paying attention - problem also
In reply to cas54321:
A hand on the deadrope is all you need. How would you pay/pull out rope for a leader for example? You'd need 3 hands!
A hand on the deadrope is all you need. How would you pay/pull out rope for a leader for example? You'd need 3 hands!
In reply to cas54321:
>
Are you sure it's never happened before? How many pictures do you have of yourself taken by your belayer? Check out the pictures added today alone on UKC, that's how common it is. A competent belayer, and it's not a problem.
>
> I've climbed for some years, and this has never cropped up before. Am I being over cautious?
Are you sure it's never happened before? How many pictures do you have of yourself taken by your belayer? Check out the pictures added today alone on UKC, that's how common it is. A competent belayer, and it's not a problem.
In reply to cas54321:
You have still not clarified whether they were actually belaying with one hand or just holding the rope with one hand. one is bad, the other isn't.
You have still not clarified whether they were actually belaying with one hand or just holding the rope with one hand. one is bad, the other isn't.
In reply to SteveoS:
Agreed. One hand is fine. I often smoke while belaying outdoors (fag in mouth with no hands) but only if the climber is ok with it. If not I don't... the climber dictates the behaviour I think. But if a climber doesn't trust me with one hand locking off... well they can climb with someone else. Held big falls with one hand.
Agreed. One hand is fine. I often smoke while belaying outdoors (fag in mouth with no hands) but only if the climber is ok with it. If not I don't... the climber dictates the behaviour I think. But if a climber doesn't trust me with one hand locking off... well they can climb with someone else. Held big falls with one hand.
In reply to higherclimbingwales:
I believe he was only holding the rope with hand, but I'm fairly sure he would use both hands when taking in.
I believe he was only holding the rope with hand, but I'm fairly sure he would use both hands when taking in.
In reply to jim jones:
I've always seen the belayer tie the climber off temporarily if they take a picture, and have used that approach myself.
It seems though that most people think I am over cautious, and that's useful and interesting feedback - thanks!
I've always seen the belayer tie the climber off temporarily if they take a picture, and have used that approach myself.
It seems though that most people think I am over cautious, and that's useful and interesting feedback - thanks!
In reply to cas54321:
As others have said, one hand on the rope is fine if simply having to lock off the rope and arrest a fall.
However, two hands are required to take in or pay out to a leader.
So it kind of depends what he was doing when actively managing the rope....
As others have said, one hand on the rope is fine if simply having to lock off the rope and arrest a fall.
However, two hands are required to take in or pay out to a leader.
So it kind of depends what he was doing when actively managing the rope....
In reply to cas54321: If your weight's on the rope then he should have two hands on the dead rope. So if you're being lowered then it's two hands. Lowering-off using one hand is crazy as you only need a kink in the rope or someone to bump in to your elbow to give a situation where you may lose control of that rope. However, no doubt many will disagree as I've had several people climb with me and use the one-handed method, and the response when I've asked them to use two hasn't always been very positive.
In reply to cas54321:
So far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter whether or not the belayer is comfortable with their technique. The only opinion which matters is the person being belayed.
So far as I am concerned, it doesn't matter whether or not the belayer is comfortable with their technique. The only opinion which matters is the person being belayed.
In reply to cas54321:
This is the problem. There's plenty of scope for discussion about the fine details of belaying technique - see above passim - but this is the reaction of a complete jerk.
> He laughed and refused.
This is the problem. There's plenty of scope for discussion about the fine details of belaying technique - see above passim - but this is the reaction of a complete jerk.
In reply to cas54321:
One of the secondary benefits of CU belay glasses is that they tend to focus the belayers eyes and attention on the leader. I have no hesitation whatsoever in loaning mine to whoever may be belaying me at the time.
One of the secondary benefits of CU belay glasses is that they tend to focus the belayers eyes and attention on the leader. I have no hesitation whatsoever in loaning mine to whoever may be belaying me at the time.
In reply to AlanLittle:
It is so blindingly obvious that two hands is safer than one that it is clearly daft not to use two hands exceopt when feeding through the rope.
> This is the problem. There's plenty of scope for discussion about the fine details of belaying technique - see above passim - but this is the reaction of a complete jerk.
It is so blindingly obvious that two hands is safer than one that it is clearly daft not to use two hands exceopt when feeding through the rope.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Well, it's probably a bit more complicated than that. If a belayer is not capable of locking off with one hand then there are much bigger problems, such as too thin a rope (or too wide a belay plate) or a belayer too weak to hold the weight of the climber.
> It is so blindingly obvious that two hands is safer than one that it is clearly daft not to use two hands exceopt when feeding through the rope.
Well, it's probably a bit more complicated than that. If a belayer is not capable of locking off with one hand then there are much bigger problems, such as too thin a rope (or too wide a belay plate) or a belayer too weak to hold the weight of the climber.
In reply to cas54321:
Is your mate ex forces? The reason I ask is, I have had a similar situation with an army friend, no matter how many times I asked him , if I looked down he was belaying with one hand, he would use two for a short time after me moaning but would revert back to one hand as soon as he forgot , I climbed with him for a few months and he still did it l
I agree with what somebody said above that the leaders a opinion takes priority, ( usually)
Is your mate ex forces? The reason I ask is, I have had a similar situation with an army friend, no matter how many times I asked him , if I looked down he was belaying with one hand, he would use two for a short time after me moaning but would revert back to one hand as soon as he forgot , I climbed with him for a few months and he still did it l
I agree with what somebody said above that the leaders a opinion takes priority, ( usually)
In reply to cas54321:
Yes, you're being hugely over cautious.
Lots of people will have been taught to lock off a belay device by putting the dead rope down one side of the body, where it is impossible to put two hands on. Perfectly safe.
Locking off centrally with two hands on the dead rope is relatively recent.
Even then people are still taught to use their second hand to pull the live rope to make it easier for the dead rope to be pulled through the device.
As others have said it is impossible to lead belay with two hands on the dead rope even though a lead fall is harder to hold and may involve a moving rope rather than a static, locked off, top rope fall that involves no movement of the rope at all.
Yes, you're being hugely over cautious.
Lots of people will have been taught to lock off a belay device by putting the dead rope down one side of the body, where it is impossible to put two hands on. Perfectly safe.
Locking off centrally with two hands on the dead rope is relatively recent.
Even then people are still taught to use their second hand to pull the live rope to make it easier for the dead rope to be pulled through the device.
As others have said it is impossible to lead belay with two hands on the dead rope even though a lead fall is harder to hold and may involve a moving rope rather than a static, locked off, top rope fall that involves no movement of the rope at all.
In reply to cas54321:
What disturbs me is seeing so many people lowering with one hand on the dead-rope and one on the live. I don't know what they think the upper hand is doing.
What disturbs me is seeing so many people lowering with one hand on the dead-rope and one on the live. I don't know what they think the upper hand is doing.
In reply to cas54321:
Control/Brake Hand never Leaves Dead rope. Other Hand for feeding Live rope and Smoking cig. Eyes and ears on Climber.
If i Caught Belayer doing this 2 Hands on on Dead rope i would tell them to behave.
Control/Brake Hand never Leaves Dead rope. Other Hand for feeding Live rope and Smoking cig. Eyes and ears on Climber.
If i Caught Belayer doing this 2 Hands on on Dead rope i would tell them to behave.
In reply to Robert Durran:
While in 'theory' your logic may seem sound, that doesn't mean it's right in my opinion. If every car had three fully independent braking systems instead of two they would be safer, but they don't as its unnecessary (assuming that a dual brake system is considered one system as still operates from a single failure point). Braking with two feet on the pedal could be considered safer but you don't as one does just fine.
In reply to Alun:
Exactly!
> It is so blindingly obvious that two hands is safer than one that it is clearly daft not to use two hands exceopt when feeding through the rope.
While in 'theory' your logic may seem sound, that doesn't mean it's right in my opinion. If every car had three fully independent braking systems instead of two they would be safer, but they don't as its unnecessary (assuming that a dual brake system is considered one system as still operates from a single failure point). Braking with two feet on the pedal could be considered safer but you don't as one does just fine.
In reply to Alun:
> If a belayer is not capable of locking off with one hand then there are much bigger problems.
Exactly!
In reply to crayefish:
A better analogy would be having two hands on the steering wheel. Yes, there will be brief moments when you don't, but it is clearly safer to have two as the default (because you can). there is no sensible reason not to. Using one as the default is just inexcusable complacency.
> While in 'theory' your logic may seem sound, that doesn't mean it's right in my opinion. If every car had three fully independent braking systems instead of two they would be safer, but they don't as its unnecessary (assuming that a dual brake system is considered one system as still operates from a single failure point). Braking with two feet on the pedal could be considered safer but you don't as one does just fine.
A better analogy would be having two hands on the steering wheel. Yes, there will be brief moments when you don't, but it is clearly safer to have two as the default (because you can). there is no sensible reason not to. Using one as the default is just inexcusable complacency.
> In reply to Alun:
> Exactly!
In reply to Robert Durran:
No I don't think that is a better analogy. Steering is a directional thing, not a pure load application such as braking in both cases. Steering with one hand is considered more dangerous as any 'surprise' can cause your hands to move up or down and with one hand that equates to a steering alteration where as with two it cancels out.
And if you look at it from a purely force point of view then modern cars have power steering so one hand is perfectly adequate. Now if you were talking about my off-road race truck which has 35" dumper tyres, a 14" steering wheel and no power steering, then I would agree that you need two hands
> A better analogy would be having two hands on the steering wheel. Yes, there will be brief moments when you don't, but it is clearly safer to have two as the default (because you can). there is no sensible reason not to. Using one as the default is just inexcusable complacency.
No I don't think that is a better analogy. Steering is a directional thing, not a pure load application such as braking in both cases. Steering with one hand is considered more dangerous as any 'surprise' can cause your hands to move up or down and with one hand that equates to a steering alteration where as with two it cancels out.
And if you look at it from a purely force point of view then modern cars have power steering so one hand is perfectly adequate. Now if you were talking about my off-road race truck which has 35" dumper tyres, a 14" steering wheel and no power steering, then I would agree that you need two hands
In reply to crayefish:
And a "surprise" such as being pulled against the wall or another person is much more likely to hamper or even dislodge one hand than two.
Sounds like your driving is as complacent as your belaying. I hope your complacency doesn't lead to inadvertently causing any deaths.
> No I don't think that is a better analogy. Steering is a directional thing, not a pure load application such as braking in both cases. Steering with one hand is considered more dangerous as any 'surprise' can cause your hands to move up or down.
And a "surprise" such as being pulled against the wall or another person is much more likely to hamper or even dislodge one hand than two.
> And if you look at it from a purely force point of view then modern cars have power steering so one hand is perfectly adequate.
Sounds like your driving is as complacent as your belaying. I hope your complacency doesn't lead to inadvertently causing any deaths.
In reply to Robert Durran:
If you are worried about being pulled into the wall while belaying and are not confident that you can stick a foot out, then tie yourself to the floor. Or eat lots of pie
I take it that you only drive an automatic as changing gear in a manual would be dangerous? And what ever you do, DON'T talk to passengers or listen to the radio as that could cause distractions. Don't even do it for a second! After all, 'it is clearly safer'.
> And a "surprise" such as being pulled against the wall or another person is much more likely to hamper or even dislodge one hand than two.
If you are worried about being pulled into the wall while belaying and are not confident that you can stick a foot out, then tie yourself to the floor. Or eat lots of pie
> Sounds like your driving is as complacent as your belaying. I hope your complacency doesn't lead to inadvertently causing any deaths.
I take it that you only drive an automatic as changing gear in a manual would be dangerous? And what ever you do, DON'T talk to passengers or listen to the radio as that could cause distractions. Don't even do it for a second! After all, 'it is clearly safer'.
In reply to crayefish:
You are clearly an idiot.
> If you are worried about being pulled into the wall while belaying and are not confident that you can stick a foot out, then tie yourself to the floor. Or eat lots of pie
> I take it that you only drive an automatic as changing gear in a manual would be dangerous? And what ever you do, DON'T talk to passengers or listen to the radio as that could cause distractions. Don't even do it for a second! After all, 'it is clearly safer.
You are clearly an idiot.
In reply to Robert Durran:
LOL! I am not the one suggesting that the generations of climbers locking off with one hand are unsafe or that taking one of your two hands off the steering wheel is likely to lead to death. Your beautifully constructed response says it all really
> You are clearly an idiot.
LOL! I am not the one suggesting that the generations of climbers locking off with one hand are unsafe or that taking one of your two hands off the steering wheel is likely to lead to death. Your beautifully constructed response says it all really
In reply to Robert Durran:
If you are belaying with one hand it leaves the other hand free to fend off the wall/person giving you a much better chance of keeping a good firm hold of the dead rope with the other hand
Also, you shouldn't really be surprised if you are watching your climber
> (In reply to crayefish)
>
> [...]
>
> And a "surprise" such as being pulled against the wall or another person is much more likely to hamper or even dislodge one hand than two.
>
>
> [...]
>
> And a "surprise" such as being pulled against the wall or another person is much more likely to hamper or even dislodge one hand than two.
>
If you are belaying with one hand it leaves the other hand free to fend off the wall/person giving you a much better chance of keeping a good firm hold of the dead rope with the other hand
Also, you shouldn't really be surprised if you are watching your climber
In reply to crayefish:
Your posts speak for themselves. As do mine. Intelligent people will be able to come to their own view.
And no intelligent person could possibly disagree that a default popsition of both hands on the rope or steering wheel is anything other than blindingly obvious common sense.
> LOL! I am not the one suggesting that the generations of climbers locking off with one hand are unsafe or that taking one of your two hands off the steering wheel is likely to lead to death. Your beautifully constructed response says it all really
Your posts speak for themselves. As do mine. Intelligent people will be able to come to their own view.
And no intelligent person could possibly disagree that a default popsition of both hands on the rope or steering wheel is anything other than blindingly obvious common sense.
In reply to crayefish:
Oh, and I've seem too many belaying accidents to take the frivulous view you seem to have.
Oh, and I've seem too many belaying accidents to take the frivulous view you seem to have.
In reply to Robert Durran:
There is no argument that having two hands on the braking rope isn't technically safer, but it is totally unnecessary if you can belay competently and makes things more uncomfortable due to the awkward position. Do you genuinely think that if you take one hand off the braking rope you are unsafe? How do you belay for lead then?
Given your profile you're clearly a very good climber with much experience and I would put money on the fact that when you belay you hold the rope (and most importantly, are ABLE to brake effectively) with one hand, even if for part of the time.
And I don't believe for a second that you (or anyone else who isn't taking a driving test) has both hands on the steering wheel 100% of the time. Be realistic!
There is no argument that having two hands on the braking rope isn't technically safer, but it is totally unnecessary if you can belay competently and makes things more uncomfortable due to the awkward position. Do you genuinely think that if you take one hand off the braking rope you are unsafe? How do you belay for lead then?
Given your profile you're clearly a very good climber with much experience and I would put money on the fact that when you belay you hold the rope (and most importantly, are ABLE to brake effectively) with one hand, even if for part of the time.
And I don't believe for a second that you (or anyone else who isn't taking a driving test) has both hands on the steering wheel 100% of the time. Be realistic!
In reply to cas54321:
the fact that you ask him to use both hands and for him to say NO. I think he is being a bit of dick
the fact that you ask him to use both hands and for him to say NO. I think he is being a bit of dick
In reply to crayefish:
I had assumed we were talking about lead climbing.
Yes, of course under the majority of circumstances a fall can be safely held one handed.
But shit and errors happen, so why take completely unnecessary risks for no extra effort or inconvenience?
Of course you have to take one hand off to pay out rope or change gear. That's why I used the term "defdault position"
I had assumed we were talking about lead climbing.
Yes, of course under the majority of circumstances a fall can be safely held one handed.
But shit and errors happen, so why take completely unnecessary risks for no extra effort or inconvenience?
Of course you have to take one hand off to pay out rope or change gear. That's why I used the term "defdault position"
In reply to Robert Durran:
I still don't see the advantage of two hands... the strength of the fall is not going to rip the rope out of your hand and if there is a chance of hitting the wall then you can just tie in to an anchor (I'd fancy my chances of not letting go much more if I was tied in than if I was likely to hit the wall and hope one hand held).
Personally I find the instinct in a 'surprise' moment is to grab tighter... I think that is pretty natural. And having the hand down by your side rather than both in front of you (a 'taking a pee' position if you will) is less comfortable and puts my hands closer to the belay plate. Given a big fall I would always want my hand as far away from the plate as possible to stop the hand hitting the plate and possibly releasing if any rope is pulled through. In fact having hands right against the belay plate (or very close) is one of the things I can get annoyed about if my belayer is doing it!
I still don't see the advantage of two hands... the strength of the fall is not going to rip the rope out of your hand and if there is a chance of hitting the wall then you can just tie in to an anchor (I'd fancy my chances of not letting go much more if I was tied in than if I was likely to hit the wall and hope one hand held).
Personally I find the instinct in a 'surprise' moment is to grab tighter... I think that is pretty natural. And having the hand down by your side rather than both in front of you (a 'taking a pee' position if you will) is less comfortable and puts my hands closer to the belay plate. Given a big fall I would always want my hand as far away from the plate as possible to stop the hand hitting the plate and possibly releasing if any rope is pulled through. In fact having hands right against the belay plate (or very close) is one of the things I can get annoyed about if my belayer is doing it!
In reply to crayefish:
Rarely practicable at most crags or most walls.
Yes, but, as I said, shit happens.
> If there is a chance of hitting the wall then you can just tie in to an anchor
Rarely practicable at most crags or most walls.
> Personally I find the instinct in a 'surprise' moment is to grab tighter... I think that is pretty natural.
Yes, but, as I said, shit happens.
In reply to Robert Durran:
I am too heavy to need to tie in at the wall with my usual partners but on the crag if belaying someone my size I just get in a good position with one leg forward so it can be flicked up quickly. I've never been pulled into a wall/crag head first (I wear a helmet outside anyway).
> Rarely practicable at most crags or most walls.
I am too heavy to need to tie in at the wall with my usual partners but on the crag if belaying someone my size I just get in a good position with one leg forward so it can be flicked up quickly. I've never been pulled into a wall/crag head first (I wear a helmet outside anyway).
In reply to cas54321:
I would suggest that lowering off should be done with two hands, as it requires a more delicate operation of the belay device (i.e. give a little but not too much), but simply locking off the device can be done fine with one hand; in any event when belaying your other hand is normally busy pulling in/giving slack on the live rope!
I also never let my hand slide along the rope when lowering but this is probably because I have a partner who enjoys being lowered quickly, and if I slid my hand I would probably burn it with predictable consequences.
I would suggest that lowering off should be done with two hands, as it requires a more delicate operation of the belay device (i.e. give a little but not too much), but simply locking off the device can be done fine with one hand; in any event when belaying your other hand is normally busy pulling in/giving slack on the live rope!
I also never let my hand slide along the rope when lowering but this is probably because I have a partner who enjoys being lowered quickly, and if I slid my hand I would probably burn it with predictable consequences.
In reply to cas54321:
I don't think this is about one-handed vs two-handed etc. It's about you not being totally confident that he is belaying you in the safest way possible - from your description and his reaction, I would be worried too.
At the end of the day, whether your concern was justified or not, I believe part of good belaying is giving 110% confidence to the climber that they're in good hands so that they can climb at the best of their abilities without having a 3rd eye at the back of their head to keep checking whether the belayer is still awake or not.
I don't think this is about one-handed vs two-handed etc. It's about you not being totally confident that he is belaying you in the safest way possible - from your description and his reaction, I would be worried too.
At the end of the day, whether your concern was justified or not, I believe part of good belaying is giving 110% confidence to the climber that they're in good hands so that they can climb at the best of their abilities without having a 3rd eye at the back of their head to keep checking whether the belayer is still awake or not.
Post edited at 22:47
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