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I've always multi-pitch climbed as a 2, using the direct tie in method. going to the lakes at easter, and was wondering what people would most recommend when climbing as a three, direct tie in or cordlette.
In reply to Danbow73:
Cordalette is often easier from an organisational point of view, especially if one person is going to be leading multiple pitches in a row. Direct tie in is workable though, especially if you're going to be swinging leads.
Cordalette is often easier from an organisational point of view, especially if one person is going to be leading multiple pitches in a row. Direct tie in is workable though, especially if you're going to be swinging leads.
In reply to Danbow73:
it depends who's going to be leading, whether using single or half ropes? there's too many permutations, give us some more details and i'll get back to you.
it depends who's going to be leading, whether using single or half ropes? there's too many permutations, give us some more details and i'll get back to you.
In reply to Paul Hy:
Half ropes, me leading all the way up, 8 pitches and planning to use an act guide to belay the seconds.
Cheers
Dan
Half ropes, me leading all the way up, 8 pitches and planning to use an act guide to belay the seconds.
Cheers
Dan
In reply to Danbow73:
Cordellette/sling belays are must in this situation. Ultimately, you could survive without but it'll be a massive faff/time waste. You dont want to be wasting time on 8 pitches.
get a couple of big slings and some cordellette. Remember you'll need at least 2. Because you'll have to be building the new belay before they can disassemble the previous.
Cordellette/sling belays are must in this situation. Ultimately, you could survive without but it'll be a massive faff/time waste. You dont want to be wasting time on 8 pitches.
get a couple of big slings and some cordellette. Remember you'll need at least 2. Because you'll have to be building the new belay before they can disassemble the previous.
In reply to Danbow73:
Yeah I usually go with 2 x 240cm slings for this kind of situation. But i also take 3-4 x 120 slings too. Unless the belay is nice and concentrated it helps to be able to extend one runner to meet the 240 other wise it can be a bit of squeeze having enough sling to tieing the knot (often two pieces will be quite close as part of the same weakness but finding a 3rd might be a little further away). Then tie your master point over hand on that.
It's a little belt and braces but it's definitely the fastest method. Plus with 2 (im guessing inexperienced seconds, as they're not leading) you want a very redundant belay.
Yeah I usually go with 2 x 240cm slings for this kind of situation. But i also take 3-4 x 120 slings too. Unless the belay is nice and concentrated it helps to be able to extend one runner to meet the 240 other wise it can be a bit of squeeze having enough sling to tieing the knot (often two pieces will be quite close as part of the same weakness but finding a 3rd might be a little further away). Then tie your master point over hand on that.
It's a little belt and braces but it's definitely the fastest method. Plus with 2 (im guessing inexperienced seconds, as they're not leading) you want a very redundant belay.
In reply to Danbow73:
Make the seconds carry a (60cm) cow's tail lark's footed onto their belay loop with a screw gate and carry a few large (but not stupidly large) extra slings. Makes it easier to make the seconds safe quickly and easy to give everyone a bit more space on the stance.
Even with reasonable planning and stance management there will be a bit of shuffling around, tie yourself on as usual and use the slings to provide convenient clip in points for the seconds cow's tail, "up you come, clip yourself over there, get comfy". Just make sure they don't abuse the extra length to sit in a dangerous place above the belay.
I'd normally carry a couple of 120cm slings for this, the bigger ones are a faff and a half in these circumstances.
Make the seconds carry a (60cm) cow's tail lark's footed onto their belay loop with a screw gate and carry a few large (but not stupidly large) extra slings. Makes it easier to make the seconds safe quickly and easy to give everyone a bit more space on the stance.
Even with reasonable planning and stance management there will be a bit of shuffling around, tie yourself on as usual and use the slings to provide convenient clip in points for the seconds cow's tail, "up you come, clip yourself over there, get comfy". Just make sure they don't abuse the extra length to sit in a dangerous place above the belay.
I'd normally carry a couple of 120cm slings for this, the bigger ones are a faff and a half in these circumstances.
In reply to Danbow73:
Do this quite a lot with work...
Will always carry a few 120cm slings which cover most belays and a 240cm sling for the other few occasions.
I'm never left wishing I had anything longer.
If the anchors don't really work for slings then you can get them to tie in as "normal" at each belay but it is a little messy and takes more time.
Do this quite a lot with work...
Will always carry a few 120cm slings which cover most belays and a 240cm sling for the other few occasions.
I'm never left wishing I had anything longer.
If the anchors don't really work for slings then you can get them to tie in as "normal" at each belay but it is a little messy and takes more time.
In reply to duchessofmalfi:
Or they can just clove hitch into the powerpoint with the rope, more adjustable and tidy.
> Make the seconds carry a (60cm) cow's tail lark's footed onto their belay loop with a screw gate and carry a few large (but not stupidly large) extra slings. Makes it easier to make the seconds safe quickly and easy to give everyone a bit more space on the stance.
Or they can just clove hitch into the powerpoint with the rope, more adjustable and tidy.
Ok so i have a 240cm sling with a master point from all my anchors. Do I then clip the auto locking belay and all the seconds into the master point?
In reply to Danbow73:
There's a few different ways of achieving the same thing, but yep your suggestion would work just fine.
There's a few different ways of achieving the same thing, but yep your suggestion would work just fine.
In reply to Danbow73:
In reply to Danbow73:
If you plan to use a direct belay for the seconds you need a powerpoint. This can either be by forming one in the ropes with an overhand 18inches in front of the harness before you tie into the anchors, or with a cordelette, the latter normally being much better. Although you can get away with various slings, a 20ft length of 7mm cord is worth the money. You will need two, one for each belay. Don't form the cord into a loop with a double fisherman's. Just form a fig8 at each end. Clip both 8's into the same anchor piece most of the time unless you need the extra reach.
When the seconds arrive at the belay you don't need to tie them in, just let them hang from the reverso - tie a backup knot on the brake rope. This makes it easy to pull them in tight, and allows you to park the 3rd below the stance if there isn't much room. You then take the other reverso that was used on the last pitch from the second. You are then belayed by the second or third on a third belay plate.
A chaos of images can be found here:
http://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay.htm
and here
http://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/8ClimbingInAThree.htm
In reply to Danbow73:
If you plan to use a direct belay for the seconds you need a powerpoint. This can either be by forming one in the ropes with an overhand 18inches in front of the harness before you tie into the anchors, or with a cordelette, the latter normally being much better. Although you can get away with various slings, a 20ft length of 7mm cord is worth the money. You will need two, one for each belay. Don't form the cord into a loop with a double fisherman's. Just form a fig8 at each end. Clip both 8's into the same anchor piece most of the time unless you need the extra reach.
When the seconds arrive at the belay you don't need to tie them in, just let them hang from the reverso - tie a backup knot on the brake rope. This makes it easy to pull them in tight, and allows you to park the 3rd below the stance if there isn't much room. You then take the other reverso that was used on the last pitch from the second. You are then belayed by the second or third on a third belay plate.
A chaos of images can be found here:
http://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/6TheBelay.htm
and here
http://people.bath.ac.uk/dac33/high/8ClimbingInAThree.htm
In reply to Danbow73:
I still tend to tie in direct but frankly it makes little difference whatever you do, so long as you get on with things and double check what you're doing to make sure it's safe then whichever system you go for will work just fine. The really time consuming stuff is rarely the ropework.
jk
I still tend to tie in direct but frankly it makes little difference whatever you do, so long as you get on with things and double check what you're doing to make sure it's safe then whichever system you go for will work just fine. The really time consuming stuff is rarely the ropework.
jk
In reply to Danbow73:
I create an anchor made out of slings with a big krab at its centre and then I, and those who follow simply clip into that with either a sling, webbing or clove hitch. It means that if you are leading all pitches, you can easily escape the belay without having to rework the whole thing once your seconds join you.
I create an anchor made out of slings with a big krab at its centre and then I, and those who follow simply clip into that with either a sling, webbing or clove hitch. It means that if you are leading all pitches, you can easily escape the belay without having to rework the whole thing once your seconds join you.
In reply to Danbow73:
Yep, all the above seems to have got it covered, plenty of slings is the key for me. i normally carry 1 x 240 and 4x 120cm. get the 2nd'ers to carry 1x120cm sling as well just in case.
Yep, all the above seems to have got it covered, plenty of slings is the key for me. i normally carry 1 x 240 and 4x 120cm. get the 2nd'ers to carry 1x120cm sling as well just in case.
In reply to Danbow73:
In my experience with trad anchors (which I assume this is what is being talked about) then a sling will be too short to ensure the climbers use the best placements rather than those that just happen to be close. Unless you mean a 4m sling? Which would be fine, but a pair of those would I guess be a lot more expensive than some 7mm code. (I use 5.5mm spectra, but I've never been sure this is strong enough!)
> Could you not create a powerpoint using a sling?
In my experience with trad anchors (which I assume this is what is being talked about) then a sling will be too short to ensure the climbers use the best placements rather than those that just happen to be close. Unless you mean a 4m sling? Which would be fine, but a pair of those would I guess be a lot more expensive than some 7mm code. (I use 5.5mm spectra, but I've never been sure this is strong enough!)
In reply to Danbow73:
I would prefer a cordlette to a dyneema sling. Cordlette is cheaper and you can cut it into several shorter lengths to use as abseil tat. I would also imagine, although I've not tested it, that a knot in cordlette will be easier to undo than dyneema especially after it has been loaded.
I would prefer a cordlette to a dyneema sling. Cordlette is cheaper and you can cut it into several shorter lengths to use as abseil tat. I would also imagine, although I've not tested it, that a knot in cordlette will be easier to undo than dyneema especially after it has been loaded.
In reply to Kemics:
Goodness! How can you create a massive faff/time waste just by not using cordellette/sling belays?
I've never bothered, just have tied in directly and it's been fine?
> Cordellette/sling belays are must in this situation. Ultimately, you could survive without but it'll be a massive faff/time waste.
Goodness! How can you create a massive faff/time waste just by not using cordellette/sling belays?
I've never bothered, just have tied in directly and it's been fine?
In reply to tlm:
Well
How about trying it as a team of three... build the anchor with your rope and belay the 2nds up... then think how you can start to lead the next pitch and keep everyone tied in without causing a utter clusterfvck.
Well
> Goodness! How can you create a massive faff/time waste just by not using cordellette/sling belays?
> I've never bothered, just have tied in directly and it's been fine?
How about trying it as a team of three... build the anchor with your rope and belay the 2nds up... then think how you can start to lead the next pitch and keep everyone tied in without causing a utter clusterfvck.
In reply to HeMa:
You lead the pitch, bring the second up, clip their rope to the anchors with different krabs underneath your own krabs, then bring the next person up, clip them in to a krab making sure it is under yours, flake the ropes through to turn them over, unclip and lead the next pitch?
> How about trying it as a team of three... build the anchor with your rope and belay the 2nds up... then think how you can start to lead the next pitch and keep everyone tied in without causing a utter clusterfvck.
You lead the pitch, bring the second up, clip their rope to the anchors with different krabs underneath your own krabs, then bring the next person up, clip them in to a krab making sure it is under yours, flake the ropes through to turn them over, unclip and lead the next pitch?
In reply to HeMa:
That's exactly how I climb as a three, it's only as much of a clusterf*** as you make it. Done right it's no harder, slower or messier than using cordlette/slings/powerpoints or whatever your preferred method is (which I'm sure also works just fine). It does help if each team member is capable of forming their own knots and making their own adjustments.
jk
> How about trying it as a team of three... build the anchor with your rope and belay the 2nds up... then think how you can start to lead the next pitch and keep everyone tied in without causing a utter clusterfvck.
That's exactly how I climb as a three, it's only as much of a clusterf*** as you make it. Done right it's no harder, slower or messier than using cordlette/slings/powerpoints or whatever your preferred method is (which I'm sure also works just fine). It does help if each team member is capable of forming their own knots and making their own adjustments.
jk
In reply to tlm:
Yes... and it takes a lot longer than with using a cordelette (and also less of a clusterfvck).
Yes... and it takes a lot longer than with using a cordelette (and also less of a clusterfvck).
In reply to HeMa:
If you say so.
> Yes... and it takes a lot longer than with using a cordelette (and also less of a clusterfvck).
If you say so.
In reply to tlm:
So effectively building every belay twice saves time? Not to mention the faff of having everything double clipped in at one point too? Because you can't dismantle one belay till you have the second built. You need more carabiners, 6 or 7 clove hitches. Double checking so you don't untie the wrong knot. Sounds like cluster -f*ck potential to me
Cordellette is exactly the same process but you don't have to repeat it when he second arrives
> You lead the pitch, bring the second up, clip their rope to the anchors with different krabs underneath your own krabs, then bring the next person up, clip them in to a krab making sure it is under yours, flake the ropes through to turn them over, unclip and lead the next pitch?
So effectively building every belay twice saves time? Not to mention the faff of having everything double clipped in at one point too? Because you can't dismantle one belay till you have the second built. You need more carabiners, 6 or 7 clove hitches. Double checking so you don't untie the wrong knot. Sounds like cluster -f*ck potential to me
Cordellette is exactly the same process but you don't have to repeat it when he second arrives
In reply to HeMa:
Maybe it's not _much_ slower, particularly if everyone knows what they're doing and has the process down pat, but it's certainly more complicated than just clove-hitching each second in to a krab in the eye of the cordelette as they get there - you've got three times as many loops of rope going back and forth across the ledge, and three times as many krabs attached to the anchors, many more individual actions to be taken, generally a lot more opportunities for doing something daft and getting in a tangle...
Maybe it's not _much_ slower, particularly if everyone knows what they're doing and has the process down pat, but it's certainly more complicated than just clove-hitching each second in to a krab in the eye of the cordelette as they get there - you've got three times as many loops of rope going back and forth across the ledge, and three times as many krabs attached to the anchors, many more individual actions to be taken, generally a lot more opportunities for doing something daft and getting in a tangle...
In reply to Kemics:
In a typical belay scenario, where maybe only one piece of gear is readily to hand and the other two possibly out of reach, the faff of equalising a single rope back to a central carbiner, be it to harness or guide plate, is far greater than with a cordelette. The tying bit is relatively straightforward, if space-consuming on the carbiner, but the equalisation of distant gear can be a real time eater. Multiple clove hitches on a singel carabiner, however accommodating, can also lead to cross loading.
With double ropes, and only two bits of gear, then just using the rope makes more sense, preferably with the rope tied back to the harness for a little extra 'give' in the system.
In a typical belay scenario, where maybe only one piece of gear is readily to hand and the other two possibly out of reach, the faff of equalising a single rope back to a central carbiner, be it to harness or guide plate, is far greater than with a cordelette. The tying bit is relatively straightforward, if space-consuming on the carbiner, but the equalisation of distant gear can be a real time eater. Multiple clove hitches on a singel carabiner, however accommodating, can also lead to cross loading.
With double ropes, and only two bits of gear, then just using the rope makes more sense, preferably with the rope tied back to the harness for a little extra 'give' in the system.
In reply to Kemics:
The practice is there's *very* little difference between the two set-ups, one requires a couple of extra krabs and the forming of a few hitches, the other requires a couple of cordlettes and some extra locking krabs to be carried. I own plenty of krabs and prefer the flexibility of using the rope to equalise, it opens up options you don't always get with slightly more restrictive set-ups. Both systems and variants work fine and are as quick or slow, messy or neat as the people using them make them.
jk
> So effectively building every belay twice saves time? Not to mention the faff of having everything double clipped in at one point too? Because you can't dismantle one belay till you have the second built. You need more carabiners, 6 or 7 clove hitches. Double checking so you don't untie the wrong knot. Sounds like cluster -f*ck potential to me
> Cordellette is exactly the same process but you don't have to repeat it when he second arrives
> Cordellette is exactly the same process but you don't have to repeat it when he second arrives
The practice is there's *very* little difference between the two set-ups, one requires a couple of extra krabs and the forming of a few hitches, the other requires a couple of cordlettes and some extra locking krabs to be carried. I own plenty of krabs and prefer the flexibility of using the rope to equalise, it opens up options you don't always get with slightly more restrictive set-ups. Both systems and variants work fine and are as quick or slow, messy or neat as the people using them make them.
jk
In reply to Danbow73:
So far the fastest way I found is to make sure everybody has a cow's tail, build the belay with coredelette or rope, depending on situation.
Then everybody clips at the belay with cows tails. (Making sure you are not above the belay when doing so as to not take a >1 factor on a sling). Then when you switch climbers untie and retie on different rope.
It fells a bit weird to untie from your rope on a route, but it's a lot faster than recoiling the ropes. Only thing is to make sure everybody double checks his pal's fig8 at every belay.
There is another technique with three ropes, tied as triangle between all the climbers. and then you just rotate the triangle and there is no untying or recoiling of rope necessary, but it sounds like a recipe for disaster to me, not to mention you need three ropes.
> I've always multi-pitch climbed as a 2, using the direct tie in method. going to the lakes at easter, and was wondering what people would most recommend when climbing as a three, direct tie in or cordlette.
So far the fastest way I found is to make sure everybody has a cow's tail, build the belay with coredelette or rope, depending on situation.
Then everybody clips at the belay with cows tails. (Making sure you are not above the belay when doing so as to not take a >1 factor on a sling). Then when you switch climbers untie and retie on different rope.
It fells a bit weird to untie from your rope on a route, but it's a lot faster than recoiling the ropes. Only thing is to make sure everybody double checks his pal's fig8 at every belay.
There is another technique with three ropes, tied as triangle between all the climbers. and then you just rotate the triangle and there is no untying or recoiling of rope necessary, but it sounds like a recipe for disaster to me, not to mention you need three ropes.
In reply to HeMa:
Re: time taken using a cordelette vs. tying in with the rope
Hi,
I've timed this on a number of routes with a stop watch (and that really does make me a geek).
1. there isn't much in it.
2. with two climbers who know what they are doing tying in directly is faster.
3. with three climbers, two of whom don't know what they are doing, a cordelette often faster.
The main question is: will you be belaying directly. If the answer is yes, then an cordelette is the natural way to go, and time isn't the key question. It you need a powerpoint for the belay plate, then you might as well be tying into the powerpoint with the rope, rather than going back to the anchors.
If you are climbing in a three on a multi pitch route then you almost have to use the belay plate in guide mode as otherwise the seconds won't be able to climb at the same time and still be safe and hence you will waste a lot of time.
It is also worth considering what happens in a three if you want to rotate the leader when climbing on double ropes. If you tie in with the ropes to the anchors you will have to do some serious faffing to sort the ropes out. It would be much better to clip into the powerpoint with cow's tails, untie and swap ends.
Final point (honest), one of the main reason for the whole cordelette/reverso in guide mode/both seconds climbing a at the same time thing is the synergy within the approach AND that it means you DON'T tie the seconds into anything! You just leave them hanging from the plate. Job done. (Always place a backup knot.)
Does that make reasonable sense?
Re: time taken using a cordelette vs. tying in with the rope
Hi,
I've timed this on a number of routes with a stop watch (and that really does make me a geek).
1. there isn't much in it.
2. with two climbers who know what they are doing tying in directly is faster.
3. with three climbers, two of whom don't know what they are doing, a cordelette often faster.
The main question is: will you be belaying directly. If the answer is yes, then an cordelette is the natural way to go, and time isn't the key question. It you need a powerpoint for the belay plate, then you might as well be tying into the powerpoint with the rope, rather than going back to the anchors.
If you are climbing in a three on a multi pitch route then you almost have to use the belay plate in guide mode as otherwise the seconds won't be able to climb at the same time and still be safe and hence you will waste a lot of time.
It is also worth considering what happens in a three if you want to rotate the leader when climbing on double ropes. If you tie in with the ropes to the anchors you will have to do some serious faffing to sort the ropes out. It would be much better to clip into the powerpoint with cow's tails, untie and swap ends.
Final point (honest), one of the main reason for the whole cordelette/reverso in guide mode/both seconds climbing a at the same time thing is the synergy within the approach AND that it means you DON'T tie the seconds into anything! You just leave them hanging from the plate. Job done. (Always place a backup knot.)
Does that make reasonable sense?
In reply to David Coley:
Which was the point and situation the OP was asking this for. him doing all the leading and draggin' up to newbies.
> Re: time taken using a cordelette vs. tying in with the rope
> I've timed this on a number of routes with a stop watch (and that really does make me a geek).
> 3. with three climbers, two of whom don't know what they are doing, a cordelette often faster.
Which was the point and situation the OP was asking this for. him doing all the leading and draggin' up to newbies.
In reply to jkarran:
Now that is exactly what I meant.
> The practice is there's *very* little difference between the two set-ups, one requires a couple of extra krabs and the forming of a few hitches, the other requires a couple of cordlettes and some extra locking krabs to be carried. I own plenty of krabs and prefer the flexibility of using the rope to equalise, it opens up options you don't always get with slightly more restrictive set-ups. Both systems and variants work fine and are as quick or slow, messy or neat as the people using them make them.
Now that is exactly what I meant.
In reply to HeMa:
Where did he say they were newbies or that he would be dragging them? I thought he just said he would be doing all the leading?
> Which was the point and situation the OP was asking this for. him doing all the leading and draggin' up to newbies.
Where did he say they were newbies or that he would be dragging them? I thought he just said he would be doing all the leading?
In reply to HeMa:
They might be, they might not be. I can imagine scenarios such as going out with an experienced climber who was pregnant, so only wanted to second. Or someone who was judging your leading and gear placement. Or someone who was injured, ill, not in the mood to lead, just getting back into it after an accident, or a break, and loads more.
> If they weren't n00bs. they'd be block leadin', roight?
They might be, they might not be. I can imagine scenarios such as going out with an experienced climber who was pregnant, so only wanted to second. Or someone who was judging your leading and gear placement. Or someone who was injured, ill, not in the mood to lead, just getting back into it after an accident, or a break, and loads more.
In reply to David Coley:
I've tried various approaches this Winter to find something that works well. Most of the time I belay directly, and I've tried making a powerpoint with the double rope but in practice I can rarely get it into a position high enough to make direct belaying comfortable. I'm going to try the cordelette method for a while to see how I get on.
Andrew.
> The main question is: will you be belaying directly. If the answer is yes, then an cordelette is the natural way to go, and time isn't the key question. It you need a powerpoint for the belay plate, then you might as well be tying into the powerpoint with the rope, rather than going back to the anchors.
I've tried various approaches this Winter to find something that works well. Most of the time I belay directly, and I've tried making a powerpoint with the double rope but in practice I can rarely get it into a position high enough to make direct belaying comfortable. I'm going to try the cordelette method for a while to see how I get on.
Andrew.
In reply to tlm:
I guess if they were an experienced party they wouldn't be asking about rope work on UKC
I guess if they were an experienced party they wouldn't be asking about rope work on UKC
In reply to Kemics:
You might be right there. However, there's always space to learn... they might all be ancient and got their experience before cordelette use became common in the UK...
> I guess if they were an experienced party they wouldn't be asking about rope work on UKC
You might be right there. However, there's always space to learn... they might all be ancient and got their experience before cordelette use became common in the UK...
In reply to David Coley:
That´s news to me, can´t see it makes one bit of difference what belaying system you use.
>
> If you are climbing in a three on a multi pitch route then you almost have to use the belay plate in guide mode as otherwise the seconds won't be able to climb at the same time and still be safe and hence you will waste a lot of time.
That´s news to me, can´t see it makes one bit of difference what belaying system you use.
In reply to Danbow73:
The major advantage of using a cordalette is that you set the power point to be within easy reach. The 2nd and 3rd can then be tied into a locked power point biner as soon as the finish the pitch.
Tieing in direct may not waste much extra time on many belays, but in many instances, the anchors may be too far back and out of immediate reach. In this scenario, you either have the 2nd and 3rd trying to climb over each other (and maybe even the leader) to get their biners clipped into the anchors to allow themselves to tie in direct (which is a definite cluster); or you have the leader trying to climb back up to reach the anchors and clip his 2nd's and 3rds rope in (all the wahile why trying to belay at the same time).
On big complicated belays this also uses up loads of extra rope that may be crucial in reaching your next 60m rope stretcher of a pitch.
If there is only two of you then you can get away with clipping direct provided you both know what your doing.
But if I was on a big rout, climbing with rucksacks etc and in a team of three we would definately be using cordalettes.
The major advantage of using a cordalette is that you set the power point to be within easy reach. The 2nd and 3rd can then be tied into a locked power point biner as soon as the finish the pitch.
Tieing in direct may not waste much extra time on many belays, but in many instances, the anchors may be too far back and out of immediate reach. In this scenario, you either have the 2nd and 3rd trying to climb over each other (and maybe even the leader) to get their biners clipped into the anchors to allow themselves to tie in direct (which is a definite cluster); or you have the leader trying to climb back up to reach the anchors and clip his 2nd's and 3rds rope in (all the wahile why trying to belay at the same time).
On big complicated belays this also uses up loads of extra rope that may be crucial in reaching your next 60m rope stretcher of a pitch.
If there is only two of you then you can get away with clipping direct provided you both know what your doing.
But if I was on a big rout, climbing with rucksacks etc and in a team of three we would definately be using cordalettes.
In reply to jimtitt:
I'd either be extremely impressed or horrified by a leader who could safely belay two inexperienced seconds from an indirect belay.
> That´s news to me, can´t see it makes one bit of difference what belaying system you use.
I'd either be extremely impressed or horrified by a leader who could safely belay two inexperienced seconds from an indirect belay.
In reply to planetmarshall:
Why? What do you think the problem might be?
> I'd either be extremely impressed or horrified by a leader who could safely belay two inexperienced seconds from an indirect belay.
Why? What do you think the problem might be?
In reply to tlm:
Because people climb at different speeds. Either you end up with huge spools of slack , or you need 3 hands to lock off one rope and take in on the other. I tried this once (stupidly) and never again!
Because people climb at different speeds. Either you end up with huge spools of slack , or you need 3 hands to lock off one rope and take in on the other. I tried this once (stupidly) and never again!
In reply to tlm:
Exactly. There was rock climbing before guide plates.
> Why? What do you think the problem might be?
Exactly. There was rock climbing before guide plates.
In reply to jimtitt:
I get the impression from this thread that people have learnt a single way of doing this on a course, and that they think if they vary from this single way in the slightest, everyone will DIE!!
God - what would they make of body belays or traditional abseils?!!
Still - I'm open to learning more about alternative ways of doing things...
I get the impression from this thread that people have learnt a single way of doing this on a course, and that they think if they vary from this single way in the slightest, everyone will DIE!!
God - what would they make of body belays or traditional abseils?!!
Still - I'm open to learning more about alternative ways of doing things...
In reply to tlm:
Used them extensively - body belays in particular in Scottish Winter. Everything has its place.
Then since he's probably too modest to do it himself, I'd recommend David's and Andy Kirkpatrick's book "High", which is full of them.
> God - what would they make of body belays or traditional abseils?!!
Used them extensively - body belays in particular in Scottish Winter. Everything has its place.
> Still - I'm open to learning more about alternative ways of doing things...
Then since he's probably too modest to do it himself, I'd recommend David's and Andy Kirkpatrick's book "High", which is full of them.
In reply to planetmarshall:
That is my point....
Why, thank-you.
> Everything has its place.
That is my point....
> Then since he's probably too modest to do it himself, I'd recommend David's and Andy Kirkpatrick's book "High", which is full of them.
Why, thank-you.
In reply to jimtitt:
Jim, not sure if we have our wires crossed. I was just pointing out that it isn't easy to bring two seconds up at the same time safely with a belay off the harness, especially if they might be going to fall off.
> That´s news to me, can´t see it makes one bit of difference what belaying system you use.
Jim, not sure if we have our wires crossed. I was just pointing out that it isn't easy to bring two seconds up at the same time safely with a belay off the harness, especially if they might be going to fall off.
In reply to Kemics:
I have done it, although I am rethinking it both because of comments on here and as it is quite strenuous and a pain. Since I now have a Reverso I won't have to normally anyway. Taking in on both ropes is easy; taking in on just one rope is also easy (sliding hands). Anything in between is a pain so I just alternate between these (and you have to keep tugging the ropes individually if the climbers are out of sight). Personally I find taking in at the top of the crag already quite a bit more difficult (and therefore slower) than on the ground and trying to do this for two climbers at once makes it even slower again, but still manageable as long as they aren't rushing up.
I have done it, although I am rethinking it both because of comments on here and as it is quite strenuous and a pain. Since I now have a Reverso I won't have to normally anyway. Taking in on both ropes is easy; taking in on just one rope is also easy (sliding hands). Anything in between is a pain so I just alternate between these (and you have to keep tugging the ropes individually if the climbers are out of sight). Personally I find taking in at the top of the crag already quite a bit more difficult (and therefore slower) than on the ground and trying to do this for two climbers at once makes it even slower again, but still manageable as long as they aren't rushing up.
Post edited at 16:50
In reply to jimtitt:
True, and maybe I'm being a paranoid, but I do think it is much better to use a guide plate when climbing in a three on multi pitch most of the time. Especially when the belays are hanging ones or the seconds might start throwing themselves off the cliff.
Maybe I'm just getting old!
> Exactly. There was rock climbing before guide plates.
True, and maybe I'm being a paranoid, but I do think it is much better to use a guide plate when climbing in a three on multi pitch most of the time. Especially when the belays are hanging ones or the seconds might start throwing themselves off the cliff.
Maybe I'm just getting old!
In reply to Kemics:
I don't think I would generally try to bring two seconds up at the same time unless it was vital that we climb faster, or unless they were experienced at climbing in this way. Generally, the climbers can adjust their climbing speed so that the gap between them stays fairly constant, so you don't have too much of a problem belaying.
Much easier and more fun to just take your time and let them come up one after the other.
> Because people climb at different speeds. Either you end up with huge spools of slack , or you need 3 hands to lock off one rope and take in on the other. I tried this once (stupidly) and never again!
I don't think I would generally try to bring two seconds up at the same time unless it was vital that we climb faster, or unless they were experienced at climbing in this way. Generally, the climbers can adjust their climbing speed so that the gap between them stays fairly constant, so you don't have too much of a problem belaying.
Much easier and more fun to just take your time and let them come up one after the other.
In reply to Danbow73:
to keep the thread on track. Using a cordalette doesnt necessarily mean you will be using a guide plate.
to keep the thread on track. Using a cordalette doesnt necessarily mean you will be using a guide plate.
In reply to steveej:
True. But if you have used a cordelette to form a powerpoint, why won't you use the plate in guide mode (assuming you own such a plate)?
> to keep the thread on track. Using a cordalette doesnt necessarily mean you will be using a guide plate.
True. But if you have used a cordelette to form a powerpoint, why won't you use the plate in guide mode (assuming you own such a plate)?
In reply to tlm:
I'm not sure I understand why it would be more fun, or easier for them not to climb at the same time.
> Much easier and more fun to just take your time and let them come up one after the other.
I'm not sure I understand why it would be more fun, or easier for them not to climb at the same time.
In reply to David Coley:
If the circumstances and individual climbers were such that it wasn't suitable! The whole point is that you don't just blindly do the same thing all the time, but adjust what you do to the context. That you have a whole toolbox of delight available to you!
> I'm not sure I understand why it would be more fun, or easier for them not to climb at the same time.
If the circumstances and individual climbers were such that it wasn't suitable! The whole point is that you don't just blindly do the same thing all the time, but adjust what you do to the context. That you have a whole toolbox of delight available to you!
In reply to tlm:
I would always bring two seconds up at the same time, preferably on a guide plate as I can eat, take pics and faff at the same time, but have done it many times off an indirect belay too. Maybe 20 mins to second a pitch? That's an extra hour on a three pitch route.
> I don't think I would generally try to bring two seconds up at the same time unless it was vital that we climb faster, or unless they were experienced at climbing in this way.
I would always bring two seconds up at the same time, preferably on a guide plate as I can eat, take pics and faff at the same time, but have done it many times off an indirect belay too. Maybe 20 mins to second a pitch? That's an extra hour on a three pitch route.
In reply to David Coley:
There are other easy and safe ways to bring two seconds up at the same time, a guide plate is not a requirement to do it `safely´ and you are telling people it is unsafe to do it any other way which is clearly wrong. Two HMS´s have been the traditional answer to fixed anchors or the Garda hitch and I can´t see where the problem is using a conventional plate off the harness either. None are unsafe.
There are other easy and safe ways to bring two seconds up at the same time, a guide plate is not a requirement to do it `safely´ and you are telling people it is unsafe to do it any other way which is clearly wrong. Two HMS´s have been the traditional answer to fixed anchors or the Garda hitch and I can´t see where the problem is using a conventional plate off the harness either. None are unsafe.
In reply to jimtitt:
I've rechecked the thread, and I don't think David said any such thing - merely that doing it any other way is difficult, which is true.
> There are other easy and safe ways to bring two seconds up at the same time, a guide plate is not a requirement to do it `safely´ and you are telling people it is unsafe to do it any other way which is clearly wrong.
I've rechecked the thread, and I don't think David said any such thing - merely that doing it any other way is difficult, which is true.
In reply to planetmarshall:
The word EASY or any similar one was never used, SAFE was the criteria:-
"If you are climbing in a three on a multi pitch route then you almost have to use the belay plate in guide mode as otherwise the seconds won't be able to climb at the same time and still be safe and hence you will waste a lot of time."
The word EASY or any similar one was never used, SAFE was the criteria:-
"If you are climbing in a three on a multi pitch route then you almost have to use the belay plate in guide mode as otherwise the seconds won't be able to climb at the same time and still be safe and hence you will waste a lot of time."
In reply to jimtitt:
To be fair to Jim, re-reading that, I was a bit OTT. And everything Jim is saying about circumstances, not believing in there only being one way of doing things etc. is of course true.
However, I did use the word "almost" in the above sentence.
Maybe I should of written:
"If you are climbing in a three on a multi pitch route then one way to allow the seconds to climb safely together is to use the belay plate in guide mode, in which case it makes most sense to set up a powerpoint."
Does that sound a bit more balanced?
> The word EASY or any similar one was never used, SAFE was the criteria:-
> "If you are climbing in a three on a multi pitch route then you almost have to use the belay plate in guide mode as otherwise the seconds won't be able to climb at the same time and still be safe and hence you will waste a lot of time."
To be fair to Jim, re-reading that, I was a bit OTT. And everything Jim is saying about circumstances, not believing in there only being one way of doing things etc. is of course true.
However, I did use the word "almost" in the above sentence.
Maybe I should of written:
"If you are climbing in a three on a multi pitch route then one way to allow the seconds to climb safely together is to use the belay plate in guide mode, in which case it makes most sense to set up a powerpoint."
Does that sound a bit more balanced?
In reply to David Coley:
multipitching in a 3 while block leading. I think cord + guide mode makes the most sense 99.9% of the time. Sure you can belay off an Italian hitch anchored to nothing to alpine butterflies =)
Why not. It's possible and just as safe, i just dont think it's the most optimum.
It's like finding a perfect hand crack and choosing to layback it. Sure it works. But is it the most efficient method? For me that's very important. an extra 5-10 mins farting about on belay ledges can quickly add up to extra hours spent on the wall.
multipitching in a 3 while block leading. I think cord + guide mode makes the most sense 99.9% of the time. Sure you can belay off an Italian hitch anchored to nothing to alpine butterflies =)
Why not. It's possible and just as safe, i just dont think it's the most optimum.
It's like finding a perfect hand crack and choosing to layback it. Sure it works. But is it the most efficient method? For me that's very important. an extra 5-10 mins farting about on belay ledges can quickly add up to extra hours spent on the wall.
In reply to David Coley:
But why would you write that if you could use the belay plate in normal mode as well? It may be harder work but I don't think it is less safe.
> Maybe I should of written:
> "If you are climbing in a three on a multi pitch route then one way to allow the seconds to climb safely together is to use the belay plate in guide mode, in which case it makes most sense to set up a powerpoint."
But why would you write that if you could use the belay plate in normal mode as well? It may be harder work but I don't think it is less safe.
In reply to David Coley:
If I was writing it I´d add that if one second falls off that the self-locking on the other rope will almost certainly be disabled (see the warning in the instructions from Petzl)and paying out or taking in the other rope will be extremely difficult. Using two locking Italian hitches is safer and better as they function independently.
> To be fair to Jim, re-reading that, I was a bit OTT. And everything Jim is saying about circumstances, not believing in there only being one way of doing things etc. is of course true.
> However, I did use the word "almost" in the above sentence.
> Maybe I should of written:
> "If you are climbing in a three on a multi pitch route then one way to allow the seconds to climb safely together is to use the belay plate in guide mode, in which case it makes most sense to set up a powerpoint."
> Does that sound a bit more balanced?
If I was writing it I´d add that if one second falls off that the self-locking on the other rope will almost certainly be disabled (see the warning in the instructions from Petzl)and paying out or taking in the other rope will be extremely difficult. Using two locking Italian hitches is safer and better as they function independently.
In reply to Danbow73:
I dont agree belaying two seconds in normal method is as safe as in guide mode. It all depends on specific circumstances.
If one is a fattee and has fallen off and now hang dogging the rope, whilst the other is still climbing above - its a lot more delicate trying not to drop a rope when pulling in the slack on the moving climber. This is very pronounced when in winter/alpine environment where the ropes may be wet/icy and you have gloves/mitts on.
In this scenario guide mode is far safer.
I dont agree belaying two seconds in normal method is as safe as in guide mode. It all depends on specific circumstances.
If one is a fattee and has fallen off and now hang dogging the rope, whilst the other is still climbing above - its a lot more delicate trying not to drop a rope when pulling in the slack on the moving climber. This is very pronounced when in winter/alpine environment where the ropes may be wet/icy and you have gloves/mitts on.
In this scenario guide mode is far safer.
In reply to steveej:
possible, although 9 times out of 10 you could just hang yourself lower to solve this. As always there are exceptions and no rules.
> when the power point is too low down.
possible, although 9 times out of 10 you could just hang yourself lower to solve this. As always there are exceptions and no rules.
In reply to David Coley:
But why hang uncomfortably when you could be on a nice ledge?
As you say in your last sentence. There's no rules as long as it's safe and you understand the systems, different situations require different tactics, only learnt by going out climbing.
I've never felt the need for a cordlette, for work or play. For me it's an unnecessary bit of kit so I don't carry one. But if that's your chosen method, great
> possible, although 9 times out of 10 you could just hang yourself lower to solve this. As always there are exceptions and no rules.
But why hang uncomfortably when you could be on a nice ledge?
As you say in your last sentence. There's no rules as long as it's safe and you understand the systems, different situations require different tactics, only learnt by going out climbing.
I've never felt the need for a cordlette, for work or play. For me it's an unnecessary bit of kit so I don't carry one. But if that's your chosen method, great
In reply to Danbow73:
what are peoples opinions on using slings for the powerpoint and tying knots in it? Know i'm reducing the strength of the system doing that
what are peoples opinions on using slings for the powerpoint and tying knots in it? Know i'm reducing the strength of the system doing that
In reply to Danbow73:
There's no problem at all with knotting a sling to equalise anchors and create a power point.
There's no problem at all with knotting a sling to equalise anchors and create a power point.
In reply to Danbow73:
Don't worry about the knots.
However a single long sling or cordelette is much better/quicker than trying to equalise three random slings.
Personally, 99% of the time I don't carry a cordelette on British trad unless I'm climbing in a three or more.
> what are peoples opinions on using slings for the powerpoint and tying knots in it? Know i'm reducing the strength of the system doing that
Don't worry about the knots.
However a single long sling or cordelette is much better/quicker than trying to equalise three random slings.
Personally, 99% of the time I don't carry a cordelette on British trad unless I'm climbing in a three or more.
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