UKC

50 rescuers' nine-hour student hunt http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-mid-wales-26008456

In reply to Run_Ross_Run:

That angers me. The arrogance.

In reply to SteveoS:

It could be something other than arrogance?

In reply to SteveoS:


Odd reaction. Maybe stupidity and lack of experience but arrogance?

In reply to SteveoS:

Why? They went out ill equipped.. these things happen, they are safe. They learnt. We all screwed up early on in our careers, I did many times.. ran out on the fells at dusk no torch, no map.. I've had many long runs that werent planned, you learn.. you develop.. sometimes the shit hits the fan.

In reply to SteveoS:


Who's arrogance is angering you?

In reply to IainRUK:

But were they being 'led' by a supposedly responsible adult? Doesn't seem a very obvious route for inexperienced walkers to know about.

In reply to aln:

Probably wrong word.
Just thinking they where good enough to go without maps and torches. The belief that they were impervious to the dangers. Is that arrogant? or ignorant?

In reply to SteveoS:


How d'you know what they believed? Inexperienced seems kinder.

In reply to Run_Ross_Run:

No head torch or map (at least part of thr group)... stupid!

In reply to crayefish:
2 sides and everything but...

It does sound a bit irresponsible to take a group of inexperienced/ill equipped people in out these circumstances.

Know the mrt do a great job and dont usually finger point but I reckon in situations like this the group should be held accountable for their actions.

I just feel that some people think they can stroll out safe in the knowledge that if they decide they dont want to carry on then the big yellow bird in the sky will sort things out.

In reply to Run_Ross_Run:

Or, a group of foreign students totally underestimated the weather/conditions/terrain and got in trouble? Just because they got rescued, doesn't mean they were thinking, "I can't be bothered taking the right kit, I'll use the MR safety net if required". I'd be surprised if a group of foreign students out walking knew the vagaries of our rescue setup.

In reply to SteveoS:



Agree arrogance was the wrong word, ignorance would have been better. Also they are not British, so there might be some excuse for miscalculating the harshness of our hills, and the severity of our weather.

In reply to Run_Ross_Run:


I'd far rather people felt able to ask for help without fear of recriminations and that includes daft threads like this. Reading between the lines it sounds like the outcome could have been far worse if they'd dithered over calling for help.

jk

In reply to Run_Ross_Run:

I think UKC needs to check its URL - I seem to have strayed into the Daily Mail.........

In reply to SteveoS: I don't think they were stupid or arrogant, simply inexperienced and unaware. Nobody puts themselves into this sort of danger on purpose, and nobody suffers hypothermia deliberately. It is easy to sit at home and be an armchair critic because you have experience, you know what to expect and prepare for it. They obviously didn't. Next time they will.

Its called learning by experience. I bet everyone of us can look back at our career in the mountains and quietly blush at a error of judgement we once made, or almost made. (and probably got out of by chance).

If we always did everything right and never made any mistakes it would probably be because we never did anything exciting.

Its great news they are all safe and well.

In reply to Run_Ross_Run:

More info here:
http://www.grough.co.uk/magazine/2014/02/02/more-than-50-rescuers-in-night-...

If wonder if it was MMU walking club or just a bunch of students out together.

In reply to Run_Ross_Run:

Thank goodness for SARLOC. I recently saw it in operation in the local MRT control room. I was impressed at the speed with which the casualty was located.

In reply to Hillwalker:


I just googled 'Winter walking in Britain' and the second result was an article called 'Essential Winter Know-how' on the BMC site. We are all inexperienced at first, there is no excuse for being unaware.

In reply to altirando:


How many walks have you been out for with your mates where one of you has been nominated leader and therefore responsible for everyone else? The media love the idea of there being a leader because then you have someone you can blame and level criticism at. My take on this is that a group of mates went out for a walk, got into difficulties and one of them ran on to get help, and all praise to that individual for making it.

In reply to Run_Ross_Run:

What's your point? Should they not have been rescued?

In reply to altirando:


Once maybe but I suspect you could probably find some uploaded gpx file for it nowadays on the net.

In reply to Mike Peacock:

Thanks. Reading that it makes me extremely glad we do have free MRT services. They clearly made some bad mistakes but that's what inexperienced (and I assume young) people do. I now know the score but, in my younger years, we would merrily head off into the hills in relatively poor equipment (often wearing jeans) with no regard for bad weather forecasts. Indestructible youth!

In reply to Mike Peacock:


Many years back now, I was club president of the MMU hiking club. I was surprised then at the number of foreign students who wanted to come out with us, completely ill equipped. I got the impression many of them thought our hills and mountains were benign as they are not as big as in their home country. Im glad they are all ok, it must be very frightening being in that situation.

In reply to Big Steve:

Very frightening, utterly miserable and with a smallish but significant chance that one or more of them might have died. I'm not sure how much more "accountable for their actions" Run_Ross_Run wants them to be.

In reply to Big Steve:

I think that's a fairly common feature of student walking clubs. From my experience, it was generally people who had no particular background in hillwalking but had heard of the Lake District and the Peak District were very beautiful and thought they should see them while they were over here. We made sure that there were always a couple of "potter round the lake then go to a tea shop" options available, got more subs and better turnouts for trips and everyone was a winner.

In reply to Run_Ross_Run:

Yes, It was the MMU Hiking club. It was a pre-organised trip, not a spur of the moment thing. I can't imagine the weather report was so wrong to have lead them into those conditions. Glad everyone is ok. could have been disasterous.

In reply to PeterM:

No as that may have lead to serious injury or death.

In reply to Big Steve:


Yeah - we had the same at our uni. I think mountaineering clubs and hiking clubs draw the foreign students in because they are a good vehicle for seeing our wonderfully diverse and beautiful countryside. But I wouldn't say they were any less prepared than we were, and we were probably pretty ill prepared. We forget that most people get into our wonderful sport by simply giving it a go. Personally I wouldn't have it any other way but that doesn't mean we can't keep campaigning for greater awareness of the potential danger of the hills.

In reply to ByEek:

Agreed. It's a standard moan on UKC that "health and safety culture" and an obsession with courses and certificates are putting people off from being responsible for themselves and having a sense of adventure and using their judgement and learning by experience.

But the flipside of that is that if you want people to be responsible for themselves and have a sense of adventure and use their judgement and learn by experience, then you'll have to accept that from time to time someone will have poor judgement and their sense of adventure will lead them into a situation that they might need rescuing from.

I wouldn't exactly say "well done lads and lasses" in this case, but I think there's a limit to how outraged we can be...

In reply to geordiepie:

At the risk of being all Donald Rumsfeld about it, that's yer 'unknown unknowns' though innit. It's easy enough to find the information, but first you have to be aware that there's stuff you're not aware of.

In reply to deepsoup:

It is an unknown unknown though? Shit happens in the hills and that is well documented. The solution is to carry a few basic essentials like map, compass and survival bag and know how to use them. The only unknown unknowns I can imagine are being eaten by some mythical monster or hit by a falling aeroplane engine.

In reply to ByEek:

Not unknown to everybody obviously, but as far as a fair proportion of the folk who head out into the hills very unprepared goes: yes, I think so.

In reply to Run_Ross_Run:

Seems to be a reasonable amount of defense of the actions of the hillwalkers. I don't think it is much to ask to carry a head torch (each!) and a map/compass per sub group. IF they still got lost, then well at least they *tried* and these things happen. But I think anyone who goes out on the hills for a long walk, especially unfamiliar ones, should take a head torch, compass and map. Not a lot to ask and its not a huge amount to carry. Not like anyone is saying they should have a full bivi and survival kit!

In reply to Run_Ross_Run:
Although presumably a survival/shelter bag or two would also go a long way, Exeter usually take one on climbing trips I think (where the walk-in justifies it) let alone a 'proper' walk?

One important thing to remember though is that student clubs and societies are designed to let students learn and try things out. Students only stay at any given University for a short period of time; inevitably this means student clubs may have less experienced members (or equally the opposite).

People occasionally come onto UKC and ask 'do I need a qualification to go climbing outside/take my friends outside', 'do I need to do a course to start climbing outdoors' etc. I find it amusing that the same group of people who ridicule these questions ('we learned to climb outside using nothing but shoe strings and beer mats') are the same group criticising those people with less experience who get out of their depth.

If you wanted to significantly reduce MR callouts, you could simply require people to have completed a personal hill skills course or similar before they are allowed to take themselves and say two people onto hills/mountains, in a similar way to signing novices into climbing walls. I don't think anyone, including MR, would think this practical/desirable.

In reply to crayefish:

The issue I have with this rescue is that the group weren't all novices. this trip will have been organised well in advance, the weather reports will have been submitted to the students union along with the risk assessment and the people organising it will have been more experienced than your regular rambler (or so we hope). There's only so much we can blame on the conditions, the rest is down to the organisers. Without the true facts of what was or wasn't done prior to the trip we are just all speculating of course.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Yep we are just speculating. Though certain aspects such as the lack of head torches are probably fact given the MRT stated it. But it is incredible that with all that 'prep' that they were still so woefully under prepared.

A guy in our club (who considers himself 'experienced') got into a similar situation last year when he undertook a multi-pitch climb late in the day with a friend and ended up being helicoptered off as they were stuck out freezing in the cold with no head torch. When I asked him why he didn't have a torch he said 'I lent it to someone in the uni group who didn't have one'. Incredible! If it got close to sundown while on a climb, personally I'd ab off, but that was a judgement call and something I think is an 'acceptable' error as we have all thought 'oh I am almost at the end' and thought it better to continue. But no excuses for equipment; and cheap equipment at that. We are all capable of an epic requiring the MRT or whirlybird but when it is down to something so simple as 'I forgot that bit of kit' I can't help but despair.

In reply to crayefish:


I topped out on the Etive Slabs after dark once, I think there were 16 of us that all finished about the same time, we had 4 head torches between us to get back down. Mistakes happen, at least they got out. I think that's way more important than staying in because you are starting mountaineering or are only in the UK a short time and haven't spent hundreds on kit.

In reply to jkarran:


+1.
Whilst some people do deserve derision, (I can think of repirts of people calling MRT because they'd be late for a restaurant reservation), I don't think it's helpful in this case. Mistakes were obviously made, but I can't think of anyone who's never nade a nav error or forgotten kit at some point.

I do recall a college from Gateshead that made a habit of having to call out MRT every year, and seemed to think it was all part of the fun. IIRC this was one of the few times MRT very publicly criticised the college in the press. I don't think this incident is anything like as bad.

On the 'Daily Mailesque comments front', if you think this thread is bad, have a look at Wasdale MRTs facebook page. An informative post about a rescue followed by a host of comments on the line of "I hope these idiots made a large donation and bought all the team several drinks".

In reply to crayefish:


I don't think anyone's saying that what they did was a particularly great idea. More that they ballsed up, have suffered a bit for it and have hopefully learnt something, and that there's not much point further lambasting them for it.

I'd imagine that the club committee are being dragged over the coals by their SU about it, too - hopefully they'll come out of it with some sort of sensible procedures that make this sort of thing less likely to happen again but without completely neutering the club...

In reply to jonnie3430:


But this wasn't mountaineering requiring hundreds spent on crampons, ice axes, rope, pro etc. This (as far as I know) was a hill walking trip. The investment of a torch each costs as little as a fiver, and a map/compass between each sub group (of say 3-4 people) would cost around a tenner each. Hardly a huge investment. Ok, so a group bivi, some warm jackets and emergency food would also have been good (and a little more costly) but a torch, map and compass really are the basics.

In reply to Ramblin dave:


Trouble is (and I know this from experience!) that when a school or uni club f*cks up in such a well publicised way, there often consequences for the club with closure/funding cut as a possibility. The stupidity of the group could possibly get the club closed and then future students will miss out on the opportunity.

In reply to crayefish:


Having spent quite a lot of time around beginners to walking, I would say boots are the basics, then waterproof jackets, warm hats and warm tops.

In reply to jonnie3430:


Well... unless you're the naked rambler But yes; I assumed the basics of clothing would be taken as a given.

Though personally I don't bother with hats (even in real winter conditions) as I am pretty hot headed

In reply to FesteringSore:



Very good if there is coverage and excellent if there is coverage all the way down.

Fortunately, in many hillwalking hotspots, coverage is reasonable and will at least get you a first plot.

Coverage, flat batteries, non-browsing phones, wet touchscreens, gloves, cold hands and any number of other obstacles get in the way of a good SARLOC fix when things are that wee bit difficult.

In reply to FesteringSore:


I thought you were firmly of the opinion smartphones were the insrument of the devil, and anyone venturing into the hills with one would die?

In reply to Ridge:


Perhaps the "casualty" only became one after they got the location.

In reply to Run_Ross_Run:

I'm just so impressed the BBC used 'Pumlumon'!