UKC

Anyone got any experience of climbing with schools, the GCSE scheme uses a 1-10 grading for skill, anyone got any ideas on what that would be in sport grades (school uses an indoor wall graded 3-6c)?

GCSE Brackets are:
0, Performance not worthy of credit
1, Limited skills/techniques
2-4,small range of skills/techniques
5-7, good range of skills/techniques
8-9, extensive range of skills/techniques
10, full range of skills/techniques

In reply to esoteric:

Given the GCSE grading (at least what you have quoted) assesses skills and knowledge not physical performance I don't see any GCSE/French grade connection being especially valid.

jk

At least one exam board uses NICAS as the syllabus and this doesn't directly associate NICAS performance with climbing grade. In fact there is a strong emphasis on other skills (eg rope work and safety) and IIRC NICAS 4 only demands an improvement of one grade and 10 climbs of F5+ or more.

In reply to jkarran:

This is exactly what we are struggling with. We have set routes as standard to sport grades at a shared leisure centre/school climbing wall. The school are adamant there is a direct link and "GCSE grades" for routes. Even the exam board stress its about skill, understanding and improvement, not grades, going round in circles!

If any of you were to suggest sport grade brackets for a very easy, easy moderate, difficult, hard type brackets what would you go for?

GCSE 1= rainbow route
GCSE 2-4= sport 1-3
GCSE 5-7= sport 3-5
GCSE 8-9= sport 5-6
GCSE 10= sport 6+?

Thanks!

In reply to esoteric:

Unless your exam board is very different to ours there is mo point in making this correlation. Our syllabus is looking for particular skills eg. Hand jamming. You could be climbing 8a but if the route doesn't have jams then you won't pass the test.

In reply to esoteric:





Sounds like you're answering your own question in the first bit. It seems as subjective as anyone's guess to pin grades to the difficulty.

Seems to me if they were sensible they would be measuring the progression in grade over a period of time to get some kind of idea in how someones progressing. Even then I have my doubts.

In reply to esoteric:

Some beginners can climb low 6's in their first few sessions. I wouldn't say that these are particularly 'hard'.

The school are wrong. You cannot directly compare a subjective grade for rock climbing with a GCSE grade. Is there a PE GCSE? Or is it sports science with a focus on things other than performance itself?

The NICAS scheme is in place already, why not use that. It doesn't concentrate solely on grades, but on increasing personal performance and the teaching of new skills.

In reply to esoteric:

Looking at the GCSE criteria it would indicate that they are looking for an over all improvement I.E can the candidate put on their own harness, can they tie on using a re-thread figure of 8, so on and so forth along with improving grades.

If I was assessing someones climbing ablities that is the sort of thig I would assess against.
Just my take on it

In reply to esoteric:

I would strongly agree with with the sentiments of other posters. The criteria are skill and technique, not 'physical prowess'. A powerful climber with little technique might well thug up a very steep 6b but make no progress on slabs and corners at the same grade. A more skillful climber with less power might easily finess their way up such routes. The coaching manuals are full of basic, intermediate and advanced climbing techniques and the skills manuals cover everything from tying in to dynamic and competition belaying. Surely better criteria than grade ticking.

In reply to alooker:


I'd bet someone with an advanced qualification in a related discipline could blag a GCSE based on existing skills just like climbing 'beginners' who are skilled in another sport can power their way up 6a. GCSEs aren't particularly hard either.

In reply to esoteric:

I'm a bit lost, are you a teacher or advising the school? What they appear to be asking for is meaningless and will merely penalise the weaker or less confident students who could have learned well and developed good technical skills. If that's the case then I'd suggest you don't entertain the notion of climbing for exam grades, push back with a reasoned argument.


There's no such thing, what's easy for one person can represent a *huge* achievement for another.

jk

In reply to esoteric:

There is no correlation between GCSE point score (out of 10) and the climbing grade. Which exam board are you using? AQA, EdExcel and OCR are the main ones, each with their own specifications and mark schemes.

Edexcels specification is below:

The Teacher-Examiner should choose appropriate skills/manoeuvres for each candidate from the following lists, subject to the capabilities of the candidates and the weather conditions:
Safety
Fit helmet securely and check.
Fit harness/belt and check.
Tie rope to harness or clip figure of eight into karabiner and tighten gate.
Know location of nearest phone and First Aid.
Environmental issues
Impact of climbing on the environment.
Awareness of locally important species and features.
Skills/manoeuvres
Tie ‘figure of eight’ and ‘bowline’ knots with stopper knot.
Attach rope to harness/belt.
Climb, showing three points of contact.
Low level traverse.
Correct use of climbing calls.
Demonstrate how to anchor the belayer.
Belay a climber using belay device.
Assist the climber with indication of holds and route during the climb.
Perform short abseil with device and safety ropes on releasable abseil.
Demonstrate a foot jam.
Demonstrate a hand jam.
Ascend a mantle shelf.
Perform a short layback.
Belay a climber during a fall in a top roping situation.
Tie a retied figure of eight knot.
Demonstrate a multiple belay and single point belay system.
Knowledge and equipment
Ropes and storage.
Footwear.
Climbing hardware.
Rock features, eg slabs, overhangs.
Grading systems.
Improvised techniques in ropework (eg classic belay, to release jammed belay device,prussicking, Italian hitch).
Developments in the sport.
Access.

Marks 9 – 10
Candidates should be able to perform skills/manoeuvres 1-16.
Should be able to climb with style and confidence at severe grade; belay a climber in a fall situation when top roping; tie a retied figure of eight knot; demonstrate a multiple belay system. Coil rope at end of session.

Marks 7 – 8
Candidates should be able to perform skills/manoeuvres 1-13.
Should be able to climb very difficult grade; show use of jamming; show mantleshelfing and a layback; show good knowledge of the sport; abseil with confidence. Coil rope at end of session.

Marks 5 – 6
Candidates should be able to perform skills/manoeuvres 1-11.
Should be able to climb difficult grade; use correct calls; belay climber showing good use of belay device; communicate clearly with climber; abseil; show a foot jam and hand jam; show basic knowledge of sport. Coil rope at end of session.

Marks 3 – 4
Candidates should be able to perform skills/manoeuvres 1-8.
Should be able to use calls; anchor belayer; belay climber with support; communicate with climber. Stowage of rope.

Marks 1 – 2
Candidates should be able to perform skills/manoeuvres 1-4.
Should be able to tie knots safely; attach themselves to harness/belt; climb a low traverse at an easy standard. Stowage of rope.

In reply to Paul at work:


and yet your example mentions being able to climb at diff, v. diff and severe?

In reply to tlm:

Because this is referenced further on, as a requirement to get the top band of marks 9-10, need to be completed outside.

In reply to Paul at work:


I hope that refers to climbing in tweeds with a pipe

urgh.

In reply to FreshSlate:

You have got to remember that until NICAS got involved with the exam boards in the last year or so, the mark schemes haven't be changed for at least 15 years!

In reply to FreshSlate:

>> Climb, showing three points of contact.


No dynos!

In reply to tlm:

to say the least. No flagging either.

In reply to esoteric:

The Egyptian and the Inside Flags should definitely only be Level 7, while, on balance, The Outside Flag should be pushing Level 6.

FFS, what is the world coming to? Kids should be learning proper subjects in school and climbing trees and railway bridges on the way home. What a load of bollocks!

In reply to Robert Durran:
What about football, rugby and running. Should be banned from school too?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Do you read the Daily Mail headlines and leave the annoying comments at the bottom? This is climbing as part of GCSE PE, a small part of the overall course. It is NOT a GCSE in climbing!

In reply to FreshSlate:


As examinable subjects (like proper school subjects such as Maths and Geography) with "learning outcomes" and other such bollocks, yes. As extra-curricular activities they are all good.

In reply to esoteric:
I work with KS2. The current statutory requirements and learning outcomes for PE are:

Pupils should enjoy communicating, collaborating and competing with each other. They should develop an understanding of how to improve in different physical activities and sports and learn how to evaluate and recognise their own success.

Pupils should be taught to:

- use running, jumping, throwing and catching in isolation and in combination
- play competitive games, modified where appropriate and apply basic principles suitable for attacking and defending
- develop flexibility, strength, technique, control and balance
- perform dances using a range of movement patterns
- take part in outdoor and adventurous activity challenges both individually and within a team
- compare their performances with previous ones and demonstrate improvement to achieve their personal best.

I can see how football, rugby, running and climbing fit quite nicely into there. Many of those skills are transferrable to other areas of academic and personal success.

Extra-curricular implies that children would do these activities outside school of their own free will. I would say that the many 10-11 year olds I have worked with, particularly boys, are either denied the opportunity or simply do not wish to engage in physical activity. I think all forms of PE should be encouraged at all points of life for the benefit and development of a healthy society.

However, I am biased.

In reply to gdnknf:



By all means introduce kids to all kinds of sports and activities including climbing in the context of PE lessons.

It is the idea of reducing climbing to a series of "learning outcomes" to be assessed that I find absurd and repulsive. I find it bad enough having to do it myself with mathematics.

In reply to Robert Durran:
I am in complete agreement with you there. In fact, I find reducing most academic study to a number of outcomes is disingenuous and doesn't really embody the spirit of learning.

Dismally, a set of outcomes has typically become the standard way of measuring a given persons success in all aspects of the developed world (job, house, spouse, kids etc..) however success should be (and objectively is) a very personal thing - a concept to which I expect most climbers can relate.

Children need to be able to feel successful (as do adults) to prevent hindering their development to their full potential; that success can be found in many different and sometimes unexpected places. PE is one such example.

I hope that makes sense. It's getting late.

P.s. Apologies for taking this off topic. As you were.

In reply to Paul at work:

I'd love to see this list updated for bouldering:

Fit Beanie securely and check.
Fit trousers and check underwear is visible.
Remove shirt and check abs.
Know location of phone and make sure no-one nicks it.
Environmental issues - avoid stepping in s**t
Skills/manoeuvres : perform one arm lock off from top hold of problem with smile at nearest female
Complete problem in two massive dynos completely ignoring most of the holds
Correct use of climbing calls : "Yo", "Dude", "Send It".
Assist climber with plausible but misleading beta.
Jump off from far too high without killing self (Extra credit: jump off without breaking ankle)
Ascend a lamp post
Successfully jump out of the way of a falling climber
Footwear - clear area round project climb using only your climbing shoes

In reply to Robert Durran:

But what about P.E and some kind of grade for it in general?

I see what you mean though.

In reply to esoteric:

What if the child has one arm?

In reply to Paul at work:

Know location of nearest phone and First Aid

Is First Aid a mandatory skill requirement for all climbing instructors? If not, why not?

In reply to FreshSlate:


If you mean proper PE with wall bars and fat ropes, I'd have no objection to a grade for climbing them.