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So I've ordered some stuff online from Blacks, nothing amazing, but that I can't get anywhere else. They use a courier who don't leave cards, and don't have a contact number to discuss arranging/rearranging delivery with. Because I work, I'm not in when they deliver it, and as this has happened three times, it gets returned to Blacks.
So, the policy at Blacks is that when an item gets returned undelivered, it automatically gets refunded, no ifs no buts, end of story. Or, to put it another way, I spoke with their customer services today, who confirmed they cannot resend it, it has to be refunded, they won't attempt to contact the buyer, and they won't let the buyer arrange redelivery. What the f*ck?! Being unavailable for a home delivery is not exactly rare these days, they must be missing out on loads of sales this way. No wonder the company is in shit street!
Post edited at 18:09
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
An endless problem that I have had with companies. Luckily I can get some smaller stuff sent to work, but many people can't even do that. There has to be a better solution to deliveries that happen at non-set times and only in the usual working day.
> Because I work, I'm not in when they deliver it, and as this has happened three times, it gets returned to Blacks.
An endless problem that I have had with companies. Luckily I can get some smaller stuff sent to work, but many people can't even do that. There has to be a better solution to deliveries that happen at non-set times and only in the usual working day.
In reply to crayefish:
Agreed, it is bad enough with Royal Mail and Parcelforce, let alone with the Bodgit and Scarper type of delivery companies some places use.
Agreed, it is bad enough with Royal Mail and Parcelforce, let alone with the Bodgit and Scarper type of delivery companies some places use.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
You're often lucky if the bad ones actually ring the doorbell! I actually caught one once leaving having carded... despite not even ringing the door bell.
> Agreed, it is bad enough with Royal Mail and Parcelforce, let alone with the Bodgit and Scarper type of delivery companies some places use.
You're often lucky if the bad ones actually ring the doorbell! I actually caught one once leaving having carded... despite not even ringing the door bell.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
I think Amazon have now started setting up delivery drops in local shops etc, and you pick the parcel up from the paper shop on the way home, which seems sensible.
Couriers seem very variable. Royal mail and some others here are very good, we get a note with 'Left it at Mary's' or something similar, even if officially it has to be delivered to the addressee and a DNA sample taken as proof of delivery. One of the advantages of being fairly rural.
City Link were appalling. A team of ninjas managed to sneak a 'Sorry you were out' note through the door, no matter how vigilant you were. Then it was a drive to Leeds, press a bell for 10 minutes as Galaxy 105 FM blasted out in the deserted distribution centre, then vault the counter, wander round poking parcels and eventually find someone hidden in an office who said; "You shouldn't be in here", before grudginly finding a minion to find the parcel.
I think Amazon have now started setting up delivery drops in local shops etc, and you pick the parcel up from the paper shop on the way home, which seems sensible.
Couriers seem very variable. Royal mail and some others here are very good, we get a note with 'Left it at Mary's' or something similar, even if officially it has to be delivered to the addressee and a DNA sample taken as proof of delivery. One of the advantages of being fairly rural.
City Link were appalling. A team of ninjas managed to sneak a 'Sorry you were out' note through the door, no matter how vigilant you were. Then it was a drive to Leeds, press a bell for 10 minutes as Galaxy 105 FM blasted out in the deserted distribution centre, then vault the counter, wander round poking parcels and eventually find someone hidden in an office who said; "You shouldn't be in here", before grudginly finding a minion to find the parcel.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
Solution: move to the Outer Hebrides, where it'll just get left inside your back door/ shed/ with a neighbour with no questions asked. Downside is you end up having to mail order a lot more stuff!
Solution: move to the Outer Hebrides, where it'll just get left inside your back door/ shed/ with a neighbour with no questions asked. Downside is you end up having to mail order a lot more stuff!
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
To be fair to Black's its a courier problem and not specific to them.
When I worked in London I used to get stuff delivered all the time - we had an informal contest for the biggest parcel. I got a mountain bike and a broadband satellite (big heavy piece of kit) delivered among other things.
I've seen also that Amazon have the lockers at Hammersmith tube station (and probably other places) where you can pick up your deliveries.
Here in France the 'Point Relais' system is very common where stuff will get delivered to local shops for you to pick up.
To be fair to Black's its a courier problem and not specific to them.
When I worked in London I used to get stuff delivered all the time - we had an informal contest for the biggest parcel. I got a mountain bike and a broadband satellite (big heavy piece of kit) delivered among other things.
I've seen also that Amazon have the lockers at Hammersmith tube station (and probably other places) where you can pick up your deliveries.
Here in France the 'Point Relais' system is very common where stuff will get delivered to local shops for you to pick up.
In reply to crayefish: The Royal Mail in Birmingham have been known to just send the cards out. Not enough staff to carry the packages apparently. My friend's wife caught the guy posting the card when she was off work.
In reply to yorkshireman:
Disagree. The problem isn't the return to sender policy. It's the automatic refund that must be fooking up thier accounts. This policy is not negotiable with them. With such a daft policy, it is as if they don't really care if they make the sale or not. Now granted, I don't know much about business, but that is not a business plan destined to bring in income/profit.
Disagree. The problem isn't the return to sender policy. It's the automatic refund that must be fooking up thier accounts. This policy is not negotiable with them. With such a daft policy, it is as if they don't really care if they make the sale or not. Now granted, I don't know much about business, but that is not a business plan destined to bring in income/profit.
In reply to yorkshireman:
I don't think anyone is forcing Blacks to use a given courier service.
If that courier service isn't meeting customers' needs, then Blacks need to choose another courier.
It is Blacks' fault.
Wow. that would be a big parcel. Was is delivered by NASA, ESA or Roscosmos...?
> To be fair to Black's its a courier problem and not specific to them.
I don't think anyone is forcing Blacks to use a given courier service.
If that courier service isn't meeting customers' needs, then Blacks need to choose another courier.
It is Blacks' fault.
> and a broadband satellite
Wow. that would be a big parcel. Was is delivered by NASA, ESA or Roscosmos...?
In reply to Ridge:
They also have lockers in some locations. Just put them in a shopping centre in the food/cinema area near me, 5am till midnight opening. Just get a code emailed to you and go and tap it in before grabbing the goods. Rather handy.
Since they dont always use Royal mail, who are handy for the delivery office even if they dont drop it off think it will be the option of choice.
I am somewhat confused by the ninja brigade since I thought most couriers were now self employed and had assumed they got paid per parcel delivered as opposed to number of attempts. Guess they could be really bored though and dreaming of being a commando infiltrating the dangerous depths of the evil lord volcano HQ without being spotted.
> I think Amazon have now started setting up delivery drops in local shops etc, and you pick the parcel up from the paper shop on the way home, which seems sensible.
They also have lockers in some locations. Just put them in a shopping centre in the food/cinema area near me, 5am till midnight opening. Just get a code emailed to you and go and tap it in before grabbing the goods. Rather handy.
Since they dont always use Royal mail, who are handy for the delivery office even if they dont drop it off think it will be the option of choice.
> City Link were appalling. A team of ninjas managed to sneak a 'Sorry you were out' note through the door, no matter how vigilant you were.
I am somewhat confused by the ninja brigade since I thought most couriers were now self employed and had assumed they got paid per parcel delivered as opposed to number of attempts. Guess they could be really bored though and dreaming of being a commando infiltrating the dangerous depths of the evil lord volcano HQ without being spotted.
In reply to yorkshireman:
How did you get the satellite into orbit?
> I got a mountain bike and a broadband satellite (big heavy piece of kit) delivered among other things.
How did you get the satellite into orbit?
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
If you knew that you wouldn't be in, why did you order something to be delivered when you wouldn't be in?
> So I've ordered some stuff online from Blacks, nothing amazing, but that I can't get anywhere else. They use a courier who don't leave cards, and don't have a contact number to discuss arranging/rearranging delivery with. Because I work, I'm not in when they deliver it, and as this has happened three times, it gets returned to Blacks.
If you knew that you wouldn't be in, why did you order something to be delivered when you wouldn't be in?
In reply to winhill:
Now that is a very strange post.
I didn't "order something to be delivered when I knew I wouldn't be in". I ordered something on line and have a job. I expect a courier to make some reasonable effort to get it to me or tell me where I can collect it. And even if I had ordered something knowing I would definitely be out when they attempt delivery, I expect a delivery company to leave a card telling me where it is etc.
It's not unusual for people who order things online to have a job.... who therefore may or may not be in when delivery is attempted.
Now that is a very strange post.
I didn't "order something to be delivered when I knew I wouldn't be in". I ordered something on line and have a job. I expect a courier to make some reasonable effort to get it to me or tell me where I can collect it. And even if I had ordered something knowing I would definitely be out when they attempt delivery, I expect a delivery company to leave a card telling me where it is etc.
It's not unusual for people who order things online to have a job.... who therefore may or may not be in when delivery is attempted.
Post edited at 19:16
In reply to dissonance:
I've also had a card through the door with no attempt to deliver - I assumed in that instance they were paid for mileage, or hours worked, rather than per delivery. Generally we're rural enough parcels get left in shed or with neighbour.
I've also had a card through the door with no attempt to deliver - I assumed in that instance they were paid for mileage, or hours worked, rather than per delivery. Generally we're rural enough parcels get left in shed or with neighbour.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
They do not leave a card? Which company are they using?
Could you not arrange to have delivered to work or some third party, ie a friends workplace if you cannot have deliveries at your workplace. Have you emailed Blacks customer services to seek a resolution? This seems very odd.
Oh and what is this wonderous thing that can only be purchased at Blacks?
They do not leave a card? Which company are they using?
Could you not arrange to have delivered to work or some third party, ie a friends workplace if you cannot have deliveries at your workplace. Have you emailed Blacks customer services to seek a resolution? This seems very odd.
Oh and what is this wonderous thing that can only be purchased at Blacks?
In reply to isi_o:
This has happened to me a couple of times. Recently the courier left the box (containing a pair of Campag Record brakes so worth a fair bit) tucked behind a big plant pot in the front garden, not too well hidden and only 5m from the street. I am in a posh low crime area but still, FFS.
> Solution: move to the Outer Hebrides, where it'll just get left inside your back door/ shed/ with a neighbour with no questions asked.
This has happened to me a couple of times. Recently the courier left the box (containing a pair of Campag Record brakes so worth a fair bit) tucked behind a big plant pot in the front garden, not too well hidden and only 5m from the street. I am in a posh low crime area but still, FFS.
In reply to crayefish:
I once had an order take longer than expected to arrive. Contacted the company to find out what was happening and they assured me it had been despatched and would arrive soon.
Found it completely by chance a couple of days later in a flower bed in the back garden - courier had chucked it over the garden wall, but not bothered to leave a note to that effect!
Fortunately, the contents were none the worse for the experience.
I once had an order take longer than expected to arrive. Contacted the company to find out what was happening and they assured me it had been despatched and would arrive soon.
Found it completely by chance a couple of days later in a flower bed in the back garden - courier had chucked it over the garden wall, but not bothered to leave a note to that effect!
Fortunately, the contents were none the worse for the experience.
In reply to GLUF:
A company called Hermes.
Yes, I spoke with Blacks customer service, they cannot change the address and when it gets returned, they only refund it, they have no facility to resend it or send it to another address. They automatically refund, no other option.
Flipping bizarre way to run a business.
A company called Hermes.
Yes, I spoke with Blacks customer service, they cannot change the address and when it gets returned, they only refund it, they have no facility to resend it or send it to another address. They automatically refund, no other option.
Flipping bizarre way to run a business.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains: It is down to the courier to leave a card. I have done some casual courier work for a well known firm and you are in deep s88t if they discover you do not leave a card.
As far as I know couriers are self employed and get paid 65pence per parcel (if you are lucky), so multiple attempts are a waste all round.
Most courier companies ask customers to nominate a safe place to leave the parcel which then shows up on the courier manifest. A shed or porch or neighbour are all acceptable alternatives. I did have one regular drop where the neighbours refused to accept parcels because there were just too many for this one person. Shame you can only buy what you need at Blacks.
As far as I know couriers are self employed and get paid 65pence per parcel (if you are lucky), so multiple attempts are a waste all round.
Most courier companies ask customers to nominate a safe place to leave the parcel which then shows up on the courier manifest. A shed or porch or neighbour are all acceptable alternatives. I did have one regular drop where the neighbours refused to accept parcels because there were just too many for this one person. Shame you can only buy what you need at Blacks.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
I had this, they did leave a card though but I was away for a few days over new years and had not anticipated it would be delivered so quickly and so regularly 3 consecutive days. So in the end I just waited for a refund and got a cheaper fleece from Outside who use royal mail.
I had this, they did leave a card though but I was away for a few days over new years and had not anticipated it would be delivered so quickly and so regularly 3 consecutive days. So in the end I just waited for a refund and got a cheaper fleece from Outside who use royal mail.
In reply to Cambridge-Climber:
totally, the company happy to do a refund rather than actually get items to paying customers
totally, the company happy to do a refund rather than actually get items to paying customers
Post edited at 00:11
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
A day trip to Glesga r Dundee perhaps?
BTW ..REALLY intrigued what you could only get fae Blacks BUT nowhere else??
Bad service?
A day trip to Glesga r Dundee perhaps?
BTW ..REALLY intrigued what you could only get fae Blacks BUT nowhere else??
Bad service?
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
It does seem most odd.
But what is it you want. Get a mate at work who has relatives at home to order it.
It does seem most odd.
But what is it you want. Get a mate at work who has relatives at home to order it.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
OK, so you might have a lazy[1] Hermes courier or one that's run out of cards. I order stuff from Cotton Traders a fair bit, and they always card when I'm not in. Though of late I've taken to instructing them to lob stuff over the back gate, as it tends to be lowish value and in a plastic bag (and if not clothes can always be washed).
[1] Hermes are one of the looser-managed couriers - for instance, stuff doesn't go back to depots, the self-employed couriers end up with it in their house, and the number on the card is always the actual courier's mobile number. So perhaps they're too lazy to take calls. Might be worth a complaint to Hermes themselves, as the cards look official so I think they are meant to.
Neil
OK, so you might have a lazy[1] Hermes courier or one that's run out of cards. I order stuff from Cotton Traders a fair bit, and they always card when I'm not in. Though of late I've taken to instructing them to lob stuff over the back gate, as it tends to be lowish value and in a plastic bag (and if not clothes can always be washed).
[1] Hermes are one of the looser-managed couriers - for instance, stuff doesn't go back to depots, the self-employed couriers end up with it in their house, and the number on the card is always the actual courier's mobile number. So perhaps they're too lazy to take calls. Might be worth a complaint to Hermes themselves, as the cards look official so I think they are meant to.
Neil
Post edited at 08:13
In reply to Neil Williams:
>
The self employed drivers I know work 11 to 14 hour days, for after all expenses sometimes under minimum wage. If the customer is out, it is thay who stand the petrol and time of return calls.
As far as they are concerned, you ordered it and the company sent it, overnight to be delivered on Day X, and they cannot understand why YOU are not there on Day X, or why you have ordered something to be delivered on Day X when you cannot be there, nor why the sender has sent it when you cannot be there.
They get paid between 60p and £1.20 per drop and have to do between 80 and 120 drops per day to make it pay.
So they are not Lazy
They have no time to piss about because your on the bog, doorbell not working or other things and if they phone you pre delivery they are doing you a favour, they do not get paid to do that, infact they may end up paying to do it as they may be using their own phones.
In the OP`s instance I would guess the driver knows Nick is never in and is fed up with going. Why there is no card is a mystery.
>
> So perhaps they're too lazy to take calls. Might be worth a complaint to Hermes themselves, as the cards look official so I think they are meant to.
>
The self employed drivers I know work 11 to 14 hour days, for after all expenses sometimes under minimum wage. If the customer is out, it is thay who stand the petrol and time of return calls.
As far as they are concerned, you ordered it and the company sent it, overnight to be delivered on Day X, and they cannot understand why YOU are not there on Day X, or why you have ordered something to be delivered on Day X when you cannot be there, nor why the sender has sent it when you cannot be there.
They get paid between 60p and £1.20 per drop and have to do between 80 and 120 drops per day to make it pay.
So they are not Lazy
They have no time to piss about because your on the bog, doorbell not working or other things and if they phone you pre delivery they are doing you a favour, they do not get paid to do that, infact they may end up paying to do it as they may be using their own phones.
In the OP`s instance I would guess the driver knows Nick is never in and is fed up with going. Why there is no card is a mystery.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
Just a thought, how do you know they are coming to your house if they have not left a card? I once had an issue with a delivery, and the customer swore they were in and the driver swore he was going to the house, eventually I got the driver to describe the house, and he was going to 4 Hollybank Avenue and the Customer lived at 4 Hollybank Close.
What is it your ordering
Just a thought, how do you know they are coming to your house if they have not left a card? I once had an issue with a delivery, and the customer swore they were in and the driver swore he was going to the house, eventually I got the driver to describe the house, and he was going to 4 Hollybank Avenue and the Customer lived at 4 Hollybank Close.
What is it your ordering
In reply to Ridge:
My understanding is that the rules were recently changed and Royal Mail are no longer obliged to deliver to the addressee on pain of death. I believe they are supposed to attempt delivery to a neighbour, but our local Royal Mail parcel delivery driver seems to have decided that the new rules meant that he could "deliver" a parcel clearly marked 'fragile' by chucking it over a 6ft gate on to our back patio. Fortunately the contents were well packaged and survived the experience.
> Royal mail and some others here are very good, we get a note with 'Left it at Mary's' or something similar, even if officially it has to be delivered to the addressee and a DNA sample taken as proof of delivery.
My understanding is that the rules were recently changed and Royal Mail are no longer obliged to deliver to the addressee on pain of death. I believe they are supposed to attempt delivery to a neighbour, but our local Royal Mail parcel delivery driver seems to have decided that the new rules meant that he could "deliver" a parcel clearly marked 'fragile' by chucking it over a 6ft gate on to our back patio. Fortunately the contents were well packaged and survived the experience.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
Can you not have it delivered to work? Or to a friends house, or their work? Are there not businesses (shops and the like) that will take delivery in return for a small fee?
I can't see that this is a problem with Blacks. More a problem with the concept of delivery when you are out generally. I have had cards in the past and it is a royal faff going to pick it up. I have also had one delivery left in the bin on bin day! You often also hear stories of people in the street who have received goods on the promise that they will deliver them on behalf of the delivery driver. The goods strangely go missing.
Can you not have it delivered to work? Or to a friends house, or their work? Are there not businesses (shops and the like) that will take delivery in return for a small fee?
I can't see that this is a problem with Blacks. More a problem with the concept of delivery when you are out generally. I have had cards in the past and it is a royal faff going to pick it up. I have also had one delivery left in the bin on bin day! You often also hear stories of people in the street who have received goods on the promise that they will deliver them on behalf of the delivery driver. The goods strangely go missing.
In reply to captain paranoia:
>> > and a broadband satellite
Good catch Most of it burned up on re-entry to be fair - I just had to nominate a landing site.
I live 25 minutes from the nearest town, an hour from the nearest big city and so get a LOT of stuff delivered. I'm on Amazon Premium so probably get 2-3 Amazon parcels a week, although I set them to come in a few days, rather than next day delivery - that way they come with the postman and not the courier companies who tend to have a hard time finding me (small hamlet, in the mountains, difficult access in the winter, no street names or house numbers, house set back from the main road).
Since I work from home most of the time, being in is not so much of a problem, but companies that want to capitalise on the explosion in eCommerce need to accept that for most people, home deliveries during working hours are not a great option.
>> > and a broadband satellite
> Wow. that would be a big parcel. Was is delivered by NASA, ESA or Roscosmos...?
>
Good catch Most of it burned up on re-entry to be fair - I just had to nominate a landing site.
I live 25 minutes from the nearest town, an hour from the nearest big city and so get a LOT of stuff delivered. I'm on Amazon Premium so probably get 2-3 Amazon parcels a week, although I set them to come in a few days, rather than next day delivery - that way they come with the postman and not the courier companies who tend to have a hard time finding me (small hamlet, in the mountains, difficult access in the winter, no street names or house numbers, house set back from the main road).
Since I work from home most of the time, being in is not so much of a problem, but companies that want to capitalise on the explosion in eCommerce need to accept that for most people, home deliveries during working hours are not a great option.
In reply to GLUF:
If you don't like the job, don't do it. If enough people didn't, they would improve conditions.
It isn't acceptable to justify giving rotten customer service because the job is hard/underpaid.
Edit: this refers specifically to not carding, or not doing the specified number of attempts. Obviously if phoning ahead is not a quoted part of the service it is not required.
In any case I think it's about time companies offered a choice of courier, at cost - perhaps a law requiring carriage costs to be quoted separately might help, as it'd remove the incentive for low costs to be able to offer "free" carriage.
For me it would be Royal Mail - every single time. Yes, even if it cost more. I already where possible choose companies who do use Royal Mail, which has the added benefit to society that these are often smaller companies.
Neil
If you don't like the job, don't do it. If enough people didn't, they would improve conditions.
It isn't acceptable to justify giving rotten customer service because the job is hard/underpaid.
Edit: this refers specifically to not carding, or not doing the specified number of attempts. Obviously if phoning ahead is not a quoted part of the service it is not required.
In any case I think it's about time companies offered a choice of courier, at cost - perhaps a law requiring carriage costs to be quoted separately might help, as it'd remove the incentive for low costs to be able to offer "free" carriage.
For me it would be Royal Mail - every single time. Yes, even if it cost more. I already where possible choose companies who do use Royal Mail, which has the added benefit to society that these are often smaller companies.
Neil
Post edited at 10:53
In reply to yorkshireman:
And companies need to think about packaging design[1]. Amazon are quite good at this. It's really annoying when you have to go to a depot to collect an item that had it been packaged more sensibly would have fitted through a standard sized letterbox.
[1] Again possibly consider sending separate packages of the right size, at higher delivery charge if necessary. You can force Amazon to do this by doing separate orders, but many smaller companies will notice this and package separate orders together as they think it's helpful - often it isn't. One novel in a padded envelope fits, two might not, three definitely won't. Also, use Royal Mail Tracked where the value isn't too high rather than Signed For.
Neil
And companies need to think about packaging design[1]. Amazon are quite good at this. It's really annoying when you have to go to a depot to collect an item that had it been packaged more sensibly would have fitted through a standard sized letterbox.
[1] Again possibly consider sending separate packages of the right size, at higher delivery charge if necessary. You can force Amazon to do this by doing separate orders, but many smaller companies will notice this and package separate orders together as they think it's helpful - often it isn't. One novel in a padded envelope fits, two might not, three definitely won't. Also, use Royal Mail Tracked where the value isn't too high rather than Signed For.
Neil
Post edited at 10:51
In reply to ByEek:
I reckon pubs could be the answer here. At one fell swoop you could make e-commerce easier and slow the decline of the local pub. "Back in a bit, love, I'm just going to pick up a parcel..."
As it stands, I reverse the usual "pump the shop assistant for specialist knowledge then buy it online" procedure by reading up loads of Amazon reviews to decide what I want and then nipping into town at lunchtime to buy it at my convenience...
> Are there not businesses (shops and the like) that will take delivery in return for a small fee?
I reckon pubs could be the answer here. At one fell swoop you could make e-commerce easier and slow the decline of the local pub. "Back in a bit, love, I'm just going to pick up a parcel..."
As it stands, I reverse the usual "pump the shop assistant for specialist knowledge then buy it online" procedure by reading up loads of Amazon reviews to decide what I want and then nipping into town at lunchtime to buy it at my convenience...
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
Try MyByBox. It's a locker delivery system, I've found them to be very good.
Try MyByBox. It's a locker delivery system, I've found them to be very good.
In reply to Neil Williams:
A great thing about the French postal service is that everyone has a standard mailbox about 40cm cubed. They have standard keys that the postmen have access to so they can unlock them and leave larger parcels in the box even if you're not in.
Amazon do send some stupid parcels though, completely unnecessarily packaged and bulked. All good materials for lighting the fire though.
> And companies need to think about packaging design[1]. Amazon are quite good at this. It's really annoying when you have to go to a depot to collect an item that had it been packaged more sensibly would have fitted through a standard sized letterbox.
A great thing about the French postal service is that everyone has a standard mailbox about 40cm cubed. They have standard keys that the postmen have access to so they can unlock them and leave larger parcels in the box even if you're not in.
Amazon do send some stupid parcels though, completely unnecessarily packaged and bulked. All good materials for lighting the fire though.
In reply to yorkshireman:
That's a really good idea. I'm considering the idea of putting a locked, bolted-down wooden box with a combination lock by my door and putting the combination in the delivery address as a vaguely similar option. Though I have a feeling some couriers wouldn't bother.
Swiss ones have the box but no lock. I guess that'd get nicked here.
Neil
That's a really good idea. I'm considering the idea of putting a locked, bolted-down wooden box with a combination lock by my door and putting the combination in the delivery address as a vaguely similar option. Though I have a feeling some couriers wouldn't bother.
Swiss ones have the box but no lock. I guess that'd get nicked here.
Neil
Post edited at 11:26
In reply to Neil Williams:
Not everyone has choices in life. See the thread on prostitutes.
They are doing the job, take parcel to house on day assigned by sender, knock on door, get signature.
The sender should do their job of keeping the customer informed.
The Customer should do their part of the bargain of being in when the parcel is delivered. If they cannot be there, then they should not have ordered it.
The sender and customer are trying to pass their problem to the Driver, but often are not prepared to pay to have the Driver solve the problem with ,ie a Saturday delivery.
The carding as I have repeatedly said is a mystery to me. All the drivers I know say they do card, and they have no reason not to. I suspect that some cards get scooped up with the Junk mail, but thats hardly the drivers fault.
> If you don't like the job, don't do it. If enough people didn't, they would improve conditions.
Not everyone has choices in life. See the thread on prostitutes.
> It isn't acceptable to justify giving rotten customer service because the job is hard/underpaid.
>
They are doing the job, take parcel to house on day assigned by sender, knock on door, get signature.
The sender should do their job of keeping the customer informed.
The Customer should do their part of the bargain of being in when the parcel is delivered. If they cannot be there, then they should not have ordered it.
The sender and customer are trying to pass their problem to the Driver, but often are not prepared to pay to have the Driver solve the problem with ,ie a Saturday delivery.
The carding as I have repeatedly said is a mystery to me. All the drivers I know say they do card, and they have no reason not to. I suspect that some cards get scooped up with the Junk mail, but thats hardly the drivers fault.
In reply to GLUF:
Your're missing the point. Buyer pays seller for x and delivery. They expect reasonable efforts to get x to them. Reasonable is something like a) attempt, delivery, b) card if out giving option to collect, c) resend if a and b fail. And also to basically be seller-friendly and helpful. The buyer really isn't interested in how this happens or in the terrible plight of the delivery bloke - that's the seller's and delivery bloke's problem.
Your're missing the point. Buyer pays seller for x and delivery. They expect reasonable efforts to get x to them. Reasonable is something like a) attempt, delivery, b) card if out giving option to collect, c) resend if a and b fail. And also to basically be seller-friendly and helpful. The buyer really isn't interested in how this happens or in the terrible plight of the delivery bloke - that's the seller's and delivery bloke's problem.
In reply to GLUF:
"They are doing the job, take parcel to house on day assigned by sender, knock on door, get signature."
Nope, not the full job. The job includes returning if the householder is not present, the required number of times, and carding.
Do it all, or don't do it at all.
"The Customer should do their part of the bargain of being in when the parcel is delivered. If they cannot be there, then they should not have ordered it."
The customer shouldn't go for a slash on the day of delivery? Most couriers don't even wait long enough for that. You're being silly.
Neil
"They are doing the job, take parcel to house on day assigned by sender, knock on door, get signature."
Nope, not the full job. The job includes returning if the householder is not present, the required number of times, and carding.
Do it all, or don't do it at all.
"The Customer should do their part of the bargain of being in when the parcel is delivered. If they cannot be there, then they should not have ordered it."
The customer shouldn't go for a slash on the day of delivery? Most couriers don't even wait long enough for that. You're being silly.
Neil
In reply to GLUF:
No reputable company should use such a courier firm; Hermes really are crap and it is because they only pay for crap.
Personally I suspect the whole thing is probably illegal anyway. Most of these 'self-employed couriers' will presumably only be working for Hermes. I wouldn't be surprised if they were still held to some employee-like working conditions, and I bet Hermes would moan if they got a mate to cover for them for the day. If they are genuinely self-employed, then they a) would be expected to work for multiple companies and/or in a flexible way, and b) be able to get a friend to cover since Hermes would be paying for the service not the person. So personally I suspect they should legally be employees.
And if they are actually employees, then the minimum wage applies.
Back on the 'couriers are crap' theme, I have had stuff left at my house outside my door (off the street) and the tracking system has reported it as 'signed for', which means the courier is forging the signature... :P
> The self employed drivers I know work 11 to 14 hour days, for after all expenses sometimes under minimum wage.
No reputable company should use such a courier firm; Hermes really are crap and it is because they only pay for crap.
Personally I suspect the whole thing is probably illegal anyway. Most of these 'self-employed couriers' will presumably only be working for Hermes. I wouldn't be surprised if they were still held to some employee-like working conditions, and I bet Hermes would moan if they got a mate to cover for them for the day. If they are genuinely self-employed, then they a) would be expected to work for multiple companies and/or in a flexible way, and b) be able to get a friend to cover since Hermes would be paying for the service not the person. So personally I suspect they should legally be employees.
And if they are actually employees, then the minimum wage applies.
Back on the 'couriers are crap' theme, I have had stuff left at my house outside my door (off the street) and the tracking system has reported it as 'signed for', which means the courier is forging the signature... :P
Post edited at 12:01
In reply to Neil Williams:
Depending on how many parcels you get you dont need to worry about the combination. Just leave it open and then have it auto lock when shut.
Obviously fails if you do have multiple deliveries a day from different companies but for home use can work.
A universal key seems doomed to getting into the hands of the less law abiding though.
> (In reply to yorkshireman) That's a really good idea. I'm considering the idea of putting a locked, bolted-down wooden box with a combination lock by my door and putting the combination in the delivery address as a vaguely similar option.
Depending on how many parcels you get you dont need to worry about the combination. Just leave it open and then have it auto lock when shut.
Obviously fails if you do have multiple deliveries a day from different companies but for home use can work.
A universal key seems doomed to getting into the hands of the less law abiding though.
In reply to:
Consumers seem to be getting a pretty unrealistic expectation of internet buying. People want supercheap/discounted goods delivered free the day after ordering. The retailers are generally operating on supertight margins so will look for the cheapest courier as its the retailer paying for the 'free' delivery.
From a customers perspective it is better if a 'good' courier is used but if that courier is more expensive than the others then they simply won't get the business off the retailers and will ultimately disappear so they to cut thier margins to the bone.
The other problem is that people expect small independents to be able to pay for the same level of courier or provide drop of points etc as companies like Amazon which is not going to happen purely on economies of scale.
I work for a company that ships about 500 parcels a week and we generally have 'issues' with about 2 deliveries a week so overall not a bad record from our couriers. People always shout loudest about the bad ones though.
Consumers seem to be getting a pretty unrealistic expectation of internet buying. People want supercheap/discounted goods delivered free the day after ordering. The retailers are generally operating on supertight margins so will look for the cheapest courier as its the retailer paying for the 'free' delivery.
From a customers perspective it is better if a 'good' courier is used but if that courier is more expensive than the others then they simply won't get the business off the retailers and will ultimately disappear so they to cut thier margins to the bone.
The other problem is that people expect small independents to be able to pay for the same level of courier or provide drop of points etc as companies like Amazon which is not going to happen purely on economies of scale.
I work for a company that ships about 500 parcels a week and we generally have 'issues' with about 2 deliveries a week so overall not a bad record from our couriers. People always shout loudest about the bad ones though.
Post edited at 12:17
In reply to Neil Williams:
Does it, not in the contract I have with my carriers. Like I have said, but you chose to ignore, the carding is a mystery, but some carriers leave a card and are not contracted to return until contacted, but they do.
If the driver rings the bell or knocks and no one comes, they depart, obviously if you need the toilet you need the toilet, but with 80 to 120 deliveries the drivers just cannot wait 5 minutes on the off chance your on the bog.
I used to do a lot of deliveries and I would generally not use door bells because so many do not work, and instead I would knock, then I sussed that some customers even though they had heard the knock would only come to the door if you used the bell.
Another classic was you would park the liveried van at end of drive and customer sat in chair watching telly would see you, so I would get Mattress out of van and walk to door in full view of people in house and wait, not wanting to knock because the customer has seen me, and knocking would be kind of hassling them, but some would not come to door until I knocked or rang bell, most odd.
> Nope, not the full job. The job includes returning if the householder is not present, the required number of times, and carding.
Does it, not in the contract I have with my carriers. Like I have said, but you chose to ignore, the carding is a mystery, but some carriers leave a card and are not contracted to return until contacted, but they do.
> .
>
> The customer shouldn't go for a slash on the day of delivery? Most couriers don't even wait long enough for that. You're being silly.
>
If the driver rings the bell or knocks and no one comes, they depart, obviously if you need the toilet you need the toilet, but with 80 to 120 deliveries the drivers just cannot wait 5 minutes on the off chance your on the bog.
I used to do a lot of deliveries and I would generally not use door bells because so many do not work, and instead I would knock, then I sussed that some customers even though they had heard the knock would only come to the door if you used the bell.
Another classic was you would park the liveried van at end of drive and customer sat in chair watching telly would see you, so I would get Mattress out of van and walk to door in full view of people in house and wait, not wanting to knock because the customer has seen me, and knocking would be kind of hassling them, but some would not come to door until I knocked or rang bell, most odd.
In reply to Removed User:
The wife once had a set of of horse travelling boots left INSIDE a wheelie bin at the wrong house of someone who had gone on holiday.
Fortunately their neighbour checked their bin before putting theirs out and found the package.
> This has happened to me a couple of times. Recently the courier left the box (containing a pair of Campag Record brakes so worth a fair bit) tucked behind a big plant pot in the front garden, not too well hidden and only 5m from the street.
The wife once had a set of of horse travelling boots left INSIDE a wheelie bin at the wrong house of someone who had gone on holiday.
Fortunately their neighbour checked their bin before putting theirs out and found the package.
In reply to yesbutnobutyesbut:
Spot on. I certainly wouldn't fancy being a delivery driver!
> Consumers seem to be getting a pretty unrealistic expectation of internet buying. People want supercheap/discounted goods delivered free the day after ordering.
Spot on. I certainly wouldn't fancy being a delivery driver!
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
Surely the answer is simply to ask your neighbour if they would mind taking in parcels then leave a note on the door for the courier? We do this all the time for each other in our street and it seems to work fine.
Surely the answer is simply to ask your neighbour if they would mind taking in parcels then leave a note on the door for the courier? We do this all the time for each other in our street and it seems to work fine.
In reply to GLUF:
"some carriers leave a card and are not contracted to return until contacted, but they do"
I'm happy with this (in your case the "required number of times" is clearly 1). I'd also be happy with a courier that contacted you first to ask when you want the first delivery. Some now do - DPD, I think, text you with an option to change.
I saw your comment on carding, I just didn't have a comment on it. I agree it is a mystery, and it was mainly for that that I made the original comment about a courier who perhaps wants to avoid the phone calls. (The courier involved definitely does card, so a complaint to them directly might be a good idea).
Another thing I'd like to see is the courier offering the chance to the customer to upgrade their delivery to evening/weekend/specified time/whatever even if the retailer doesn't. There is one that does, DHL I think, though stupidly you have to miss a delivery first before you can invoke it.
"If the driver rings the bell or knocks and no one comes, they depart, obviously if you need the toilet you need the toilet, but with 80 to 120 deliveries the drivers just cannot wait 5 minutes on the off chance your on the bog."
Indeed not. I was more taking issue with the idea that the customer is selfish if they aren't there. The problem is that most customers are not, until they have missed one delivery, given the opportunity to say when they will be there. Meanwhile many companies do not permit their staff to have deliveries to work, many people don't work in one location etc.
"I used to do a lot of deliveries and I would generally not use door bells because so many do not work, and instead I would knock, then I sussed that some customers even though they had heard the knock would only come to the door if you used the bell."
In my case if I'm in the lounge I'll hear either, but if I'm upstairs I will only hear the bell. I would generally prefer that if a courier has a doubt, they should use both. Though there are people who will whine about this, so it's a bit of a no-win for you.
FWIW, when I replace my front door (soon) the knocker will be removed, and a sign will be placed instructing people to use the bell, and that it does work. I definitely will not hear if you just knock on the door and I'm upstairs.
Neil
"some carriers leave a card and are not contracted to return until contacted, but they do"
I'm happy with this (in your case the "required number of times" is clearly 1). I'd also be happy with a courier that contacted you first to ask when you want the first delivery. Some now do - DPD, I think, text you with an option to change.
I saw your comment on carding, I just didn't have a comment on it. I agree it is a mystery, and it was mainly for that that I made the original comment about a courier who perhaps wants to avoid the phone calls. (The courier involved definitely does card, so a complaint to them directly might be a good idea).
Another thing I'd like to see is the courier offering the chance to the customer to upgrade their delivery to evening/weekend/specified time/whatever even if the retailer doesn't. There is one that does, DHL I think, though stupidly you have to miss a delivery first before you can invoke it.
"If the driver rings the bell or knocks and no one comes, they depart, obviously if you need the toilet you need the toilet, but with 80 to 120 deliveries the drivers just cannot wait 5 minutes on the off chance your on the bog."
Indeed not. I was more taking issue with the idea that the customer is selfish if they aren't there. The problem is that most customers are not, until they have missed one delivery, given the opportunity to say when they will be there. Meanwhile many companies do not permit their staff to have deliveries to work, many people don't work in one location etc.
"I used to do a lot of deliveries and I would generally not use door bells because so many do not work, and instead I would knock, then I sussed that some customers even though they had heard the knock would only come to the door if you used the bell."
In my case if I'm in the lounge I'll hear either, but if I'm upstairs I will only hear the bell. I would generally prefer that if a courier has a doubt, they should use both. Though there are people who will whine about this, so it's a bit of a no-win for you.
FWIW, when I replace my front door (soon) the knocker will be removed, and a sign will be placed instructing people to use the bell, and that it does work. I definitely will not hear if you just knock on the door and I'm upstairs.
Neil
Post edited at 13:17
In reply to Neil Williams:
I think your confusing what the carriers job is, it is to deliver, in a set time span, be that 24 hours or 3 days, not to be a Liaison for the retailer.
What I do is this.
Receive order. Confirm order. Telephone customer and advise delivery date and amend according to preference, and advise them that they will receive a tracking code, if the house has a name is it easy to find,, and that they have to be there or we make other arrangements. But I sell relatively few high value products. People who send out loads of items just could not do this, it is amazing how long some of these conversations take, and some of the worst people are the retired.
DPD are awesome but from talking to their drivers they get loads of cardings, and they give umpteen options for you to rearrange delivery before delivery, and have online GPS tracking so you know almost to the minute what time the parcel will arrive. You would be amazed how many people who order online, do not read their emails nor check anasphone messages.
> "some carriers leave a card and are not contracted to return until contacted, but they do"
> I'm happy with this (in your case the "required number of times" is clearly 1). I'd also be happy with a courier that contacted you first to ask when you want the first delivery. Some now do - DPD, I think, text you with an option to change.
>
I think your confusing what the carriers job is, it is to deliver, in a set time span, be that 24 hours or 3 days, not to be a Liaison for the retailer.
What I do is this.
Receive order. Confirm order. Telephone customer and advise delivery date and amend according to preference, and advise them that they will receive a tracking code, if the house has a name is it easy to find,, and that they have to be there or we make other arrangements. But I sell relatively few high value products. People who send out loads of items just could not do this, it is amazing how long some of these conversations take, and some of the worst people are the retired.
DPD are awesome but from talking to their drivers they get loads of cardings, and they give umpteen options for you to rearrange delivery before delivery, and have online GPS tracking so you know almost to the minute what time the parcel will arrive. You would be amazed how many people who order online, do not read their emails nor check anasphone messages.
In reply to GLUF:
It makes sense for the carrier to liaise directly, as it means things like ETA can be communicated. Yet there is little interest in such services, because the customer cannot choose the carrier. This I believe needs to change so the market can do its job.
I can think of one specific courier that might not sound out of place in the Alps who would be out of business were it the consumer's choice which to use.
Neil
It makes sense for the carrier to liaise directly, as it means things like ETA can be communicated. Yet there is little interest in such services, because the customer cannot choose the carrier. This I believe needs to change so the market can do its job.
I can think of one specific courier that might not sound out of place in the Alps who would be out of business were it the consumer's choice which to use.
Neil
In reply to Neil Williams:
Ah but the customer does chose indirectly, by generally going for the cheapest.
Ah but the customer does chose indirectly, by generally going for the cheapest.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
Anyone else finding it mildy amusing that there are huge banner adverts for Blacks all the way through this rant about Blacks?
Anyone else finding it mildy amusing that there are huge banner adverts for Blacks all the way through this rant about Blacks?
In reply to GLUF:
i understand some of your points about deliveries, but you are dropping of a large item like a bed or mattress which has to be delivered to the address and won't fit through the letter box
i ordered a new mobile phone yesterday as an upgrade (i can't go into the shop for an upgrade, believe me i would if i could) they refused to deliver to my work, am i supposed to take a day off work and lose a days income just because i didn't have any choice about where my parcel is delivered? also i have to give 6 weeks notice for planned days off. what happens when the driver doesn't bring the parcel on the day i've taken off, can i then sue them for lost income? (of course not) or what if the item isn't in stock to be delivered? i now have to wait 6 weeks for everything i order on line acording to your model?
i think you are looking at this issue from a narrow view point.. so i'm allowed to too!
i understand some of your points about deliveries, but you are dropping of a large item like a bed or mattress which has to be delivered to the address and won't fit through the letter box
i ordered a new mobile phone yesterday as an upgrade (i can't go into the shop for an upgrade, believe me i would if i could) they refused to deliver to my work, am i supposed to take a day off work and lose a days income just because i didn't have any choice about where my parcel is delivered? also i have to give 6 weeks notice for planned days off. what happens when the driver doesn't bring the parcel on the day i've taken off, can i then sue them for lost income? (of course not) or what if the item isn't in stock to be delivered? i now have to wait 6 weeks for everything i order on line acording to your model?
i think you are looking at this issue from a narrow view point.. so i'm allowed to too!
In reply to yorkshireman:
It is definitely Black's problem. A company that cares about its business and customer service would hold a supplier to account over poor performance. If they still wanted to give customers a cheap/free delivery servce they would continue it, but at the very least list an alternative delivery service.
There a numerous companies now that I will not order from due to this issue, and I am very particular about courier companies used and check everytime I order anything.
> (In reply to nickinscottishmountains)
>
> To be fair to Black's its a courier problem and not specific to them.
>
>
> To be fair to Black's its a courier problem and not specific to them.
>
It is definitely Black's problem. A company that cares about its business and customer service would hold a supplier to account over poor performance. If they still wanted to give customers a cheap/free delivery servce they would continue it, but at the very least list an alternative delivery service.
There a numerous companies now that I will not order from due to this issue, and I am very particular about courier companies used and check everytime I order anything.
In reply to GLUF:
I'm not sure how much stuff you have ordered online, but in my experience, it's rare that you are given the opportunity to specify the exact delivery time & date unless you pay extra for express delivery. And, even if you do that, you cannot always specify a weekend delivery.
As for delivery to work, strictly, orders placed using card payment should not be delivered to anything other than the cardholder's address. Vendors may choose to send to another address, but they're doing so at risk. Many vendors stick strictly to this rule (7dayshop, for instance).
Many employers will not allow personal deliveries to be made to a work address.
As for the 'stealth card' couriers, there are plenty of reports of this behaviour, so I'm pretty sure it does happen. And the reason I suspect it happens is due to lack of room to carry all the items to be delivered. It means that a delivery attempt has been made, so the company meets their delivery deadline, without actually delivering the item.
Wingnut (of this parish), once had an item left in her dustbin. Sadly, with no explanatory note. By the time she queried the non-delivery, the bins had been collected...
Hope this gives you a customer perspective on things: it can frustrating for everyone involved in the process.
> As far as they are concerned, you ordered it and the company sent it, overnight to be delivered on Day X, and they cannot understand why YOU are not there on Day X, or why you have ordered something to be delivered on Day X when you cannot be there, nor why the sender has sent it when you cannot be there.
I'm not sure how much stuff you have ordered online, but in my experience, it's rare that you are given the opportunity to specify the exact delivery time & date unless you pay extra for express delivery. And, even if you do that, you cannot always specify a weekend delivery.
As for delivery to work, strictly, orders placed using card payment should not be delivered to anything other than the cardholder's address. Vendors may choose to send to another address, but they're doing so at risk. Many vendors stick strictly to this rule (7dayshop, for instance).
Many employers will not allow personal deliveries to be made to a work address.
As for the 'stealth card' couriers, there are plenty of reports of this behaviour, so I'm pretty sure it does happen. And the reason I suspect it happens is due to lack of room to carry all the items to be delivered. It means that a delivery attempt has been made, so the company meets their delivery deadline, without actually delivering the item.
Wingnut (of this parish), once had an item left in her dustbin. Sadly, with no explanatory note. By the time she queried the non-delivery, the bins had been collected...
Hope this gives you a customer perspective on things: it can frustrating for everyone involved in the process.
In reply to captain paranoia:
On the plus side, it is the responsibility of the retailer (not the courier, who you have no contract with) to actually deliver the item to you, not just your general location/wheelie bin (unless you have agreed to it in advance)... and so should be able to get a refund.
Companies that use really crap couriers annoy me. The stupidest bit is that (particularly with Royal Mail deliveries, where the depot is not very far away) I often order things with the expectation that I will not be in for delivery and will pick it up from the depot, but the delivery attempt has to happen before you can go down the depot. It would be easier if 'deliver to the depot in the first place' was an option...
I know Amazon now to the Amazon lock/collect plus thing, but you can't get that with supersaver delivery, so once again we have to go through the farce of getting someone to attempt delivery when I know I won't be in so I can get a card and pick it up myself...
> Wingnut (of this parish), once had an item left in her dustbin. Sadly, with no explanatory note. By the time she queried the non-delivery, the bins had been collected...
On the plus side, it is the responsibility of the retailer (not the courier, who you have no contract with) to actually deliver the item to you, not just your general location/wheelie bin (unless you have agreed to it in advance)... and so should be able to get a refund.
Companies that use really crap couriers annoy me. The stupidest bit is that (particularly with Royal Mail deliveries, where the depot is not very far away) I often order things with the expectation that I will not be in for delivery and will pick it up from the depot, but the delivery attempt has to happen before you can go down the depot. It would be easier if 'deliver to the depot in the first place' was an option...
I know Amazon now to the Amazon lock/collect plus thing, but you can't get that with supersaver delivery, so once again we have to go through the farce of getting someone to attempt delivery when I know I won't be in so I can get a card and pick it up myself...
In reply to yorkshireman:
I play a similar game with the Porters' Lodge at my college, who handle all post and parcels for the 500+ students who live in college halls, plus fellows and staff. We've had bikes, huge boxes of sports kit, flat-pack furniture, boxes and suitcases of people's stuff - but my personal best is a pallet(!) of seven brand-new rowing machines all boxed up. You could barely get into college.
> When I worked in London I used to get stuff delivered all the time - we had an informal contest for the biggest parcel. I got a mountain bike and a broadband satellite (big heavy piece of kit) delivered among other things.
I play a similar game with the Porters' Lodge at my college, who handle all post and parcels for the 500+ students who live in college halls, plus fellows and staff. We've had bikes, huge boxes of sports kit, flat-pack furniture, boxes and suitcases of people's stuff - but my personal best is a pallet(!) of seven brand-new rowing machines all boxed up. You could barely get into college.
In reply to GLUF:
I recently bought a bed, and the delivery guys couldn't have been better. Delivered exactly when they said they would, rang me twice with updates on their ETA, humped the mattress upstairs, and left before I could give them the tip I'd decided they deserved.
Granted, I paid £45 for the delivery.
> I would get Mattress out of van
I recently bought a bed, and the delivery guys couldn't have been better. Delivered exactly when they said they would, rang me twice with updates on their ETA, humped the mattress upstairs, and left before I could give them the tip I'd decided they deserved.
Granted, I paid £45 for the delivery.
In reply to andrewmcleod:
Agreed; as did the retailer. Another one was delivered. This time it stayed out of the wheelie bin.
> it is the responsibility of the retailer [...] and so should be able to get a refund.
Agreed; as did the retailer. Another one was delivered. This time it stayed out of the wheelie bin.
In reply to GLUF:
You pay peanuts, you get monkeys. I am not being unreasonable in expecting to get a card on failed delivery, and I am not being unreasonable by having a job and being out of my home, and I am not being unreasonable in expecting the courier to try to get the parcel to a neighbour and put a card through my dor telling me which neighbour it is with.
You pay peanuts, you get monkeys. I am not being unreasonable in expecting to get a card on failed delivery, and I am not being unreasonable by having a job and being out of my home, and I am not being unreasonable in expecting the courier to try to get the parcel to a neighbour and put a card through my dor telling me which neighbour it is with.
In reply to GLUF:
I phoned Blacks who phoned Hermes, who told Blacks who told me when Hermes had allegedly attempted delivery and allegedly left a card.
I phoned Blacks who phoned Hermes, who told Blacks who told me when Hermes had allegedly attempted delivery and allegedly left a card.
In reply to ByEek:
Please read my OP. Blacks cannot rearrange for it to be sent out to any address, let alone to anew address, when they receive an undelivered parcel. As I said in my OP, they automatically refund it end of story, they do not persue any other options.
Please read my OP. Blacks cannot rearrange for it to be sent out to any address, let alone to anew address, when they receive an undelivered parcel. As I said in my OP, they automatically refund it end of story, they do not persue any other options.
In reply to GLUF:
That is utter horsehit.
Customers are not told a date of delivery unless they go for guaranteed the next day. It is not unusual for customers to have jobs that mean they are out of the house for a few days when it may or many not be delivered. Customers do not pay to order items on the understanding they have to be in for an unspecified delivery date.
> The Customer should do their part of the bargain of being in when the parcel is delivered. If they cannot be there, then they should not have ordered it.
That is utter horsehit.
Customers are not told a date of delivery unless they go for guaranteed the next day. It is not unusual for customers to have jobs that mean they are out of the house for a few days when it may or many not be delivered. Customers do not pay to order items on the understanding they have to be in for an unspecified delivery date.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
Yes but did they leave a card at the correct house?
So Blacks are not good.
Hermes are not good.
Please, please , please tell us what your ordering that can only come from Blacks.
> I phoned Blacks who phoned Hermes, who told Blacks who told me when Hermes had allegedly attempted delivery and allegedly left a card.
Yes but did they leave a card at the correct house?
So Blacks are not good.
Hermes are not good.
Please, please , please tell us what your ordering that can only come from Blacks.
In reply to captain paranoia: When I deliver I take upstairs, unpack, assemble and dispose of Old bed, free, thats customer service.
When I deliver at a distance, its free, but it`s to the door, but if you give driver a tenner it will go upstairs.
£45 you been robbed.
When I deliver at a distance, its free, but it`s to the door, but if you give driver a tenner it will go upstairs.
£45 you been robbed.
In reply to GLUF:
As above, no, no cards were left, despite Hermes telling Blacks they left cards. What I ordered from Blacks is irrelevant.
As above, no, no cards were left, despite Hermes telling Blacks they left cards. What I ordered from Blacks is irrelevant.
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
Over the past year I have ordered multiple filming and photographic items from a Hong Kong based company via Fed-ex. On most occasions I've been out and Fed-ex have called me to say it could not be delivered and have arranged a day and time for re-delivery. Easy.
If a UK based company can not match this service then they aren't trying hard enough. Surely they know most people work for a living are aren't at home during the day.
If they can't provide the service (and you are not in a rush) buy elsewhere (abroad).
Over the past year I have ordered multiple filming and photographic items from a Hong Kong based company via Fed-ex. On most occasions I've been out and Fed-ex have called me to say it could not be delivered and have arranged a day and time for re-delivery. Easy.
If a UK based company can not match this service then they aren't trying hard enough. Surely they know most people work for a living are aren't at home during the day.
If they can't provide the service (and you are not in a rush) buy elsewhere (abroad).
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
I think I and maybe others have misunderstood this.
"Because I work, I'm not in when they deliver it, and as this has happened three times, it gets returned to Blacks. "
I thought you meant you had ordered it three times and it had been returned 3 times. In that case I wondered what it was you could only get from Blacks, why keep trying?
Do you mean you ordered once, but they tried to deliver 3 times, never carded and returned to Blacks.
> What I ordered from Blacks is irrelevant.
I think I and maybe others have misunderstood this.
"Because I work, I'm not in when they deliver it, and as this has happened three times, it gets returned to Blacks. "
I thought you meant you had ordered it three times and it had been returned 3 times. In that case I wondered what it was you could only get from Blacks, why keep trying?
Do you mean you ordered once, but they tried to deliver 3 times, never carded and returned to Blacks.
In reply to GLUF:
Companies, with almost no exceptions that I can think of, don't use the quality of the delivery service as a selling point. I am not offered the option by anyone to pay more for a better, specified[1] courier. I absolutely would - I would pay up to £5-£10 more, maybe even more depending on order value, to guarantee the use of Royal Mail/Parcelforce on most things I order online.
[1] I want to know which courier. Mentioning the courier I did above, for instance, that wouldn't sound out of place in the Alps, I wouldn't pay extra for their next day service, because all their service is without exception shite. I would pay extra for the definite use of the Royal Mail. Indeed, I would pay extra for the use of a second class stamp over the noted courier. As business doesn't do this, I think it's time for a law to protect the consumer from the dross.
Neil
Companies, with almost no exceptions that I can think of, don't use the quality of the delivery service as a selling point. I am not offered the option by anyone to pay more for a better, specified[1] courier. I absolutely would - I would pay up to £5-£10 more, maybe even more depending on order value, to guarantee the use of Royal Mail/Parcelforce on most things I order online.
[1] I want to know which courier. Mentioning the courier I did above, for instance, that wouldn't sound out of place in the Alps, I wouldn't pay extra for their next day service, because all their service is without exception shite. I would pay extra for the definite use of the Royal Mail. Indeed, I would pay extra for the use of a second class stamp over the noted courier. As business doesn't do this, I think it's time for a law to protect the consumer from the dross.
Neil
Post edited at 09:02
In reply to GLUF:
Here's another point, by the way - for smaller stuff that you want insured, we need more use of services like Royal Mail Tracked and Hays DX Secure[1] type services. No signature needed, so no need to wait in. Instead, the parcel is tracked through the system, and I believe the latter uses a digital camera to photograph the door/letterbox it was placed through, to remove doubt that the courier actually went there.
[1] This used to be called Secure Mail Services and used to be crap, but under the larger owner has bucked its ideas up substantially.
Neil
Here's another point, by the way - for smaller stuff that you want insured, we need more use of services like Royal Mail Tracked and Hays DX Secure[1] type services. No signature needed, so no need to wait in. Instead, the parcel is tracked through the system, and I believe the latter uses a digital camera to photograph the door/letterbox it was placed through, to remove doubt that the courier actually went there.
[1] This used to be called Secure Mail Services and used to be crap, but under the larger owner has bucked its ideas up substantially.
Neil
Post edited at 09:05
In reply to rallymania:
"i ordered a new mobile phone yesterday as an upgrade (i can't go into the shop for an upgrade, believe me i would if i could)"
Go into any mobile phone shop, assuming your contract is up and this isn't an early upgrade. They will bite your hands off to flog you an upgrade. If that network's shop won't, try a different one - they absolutely will.
But yes there is plenty of this - large value orders will often only deliver to the cardholder address.
Neil
"i ordered a new mobile phone yesterday as an upgrade (i can't go into the shop for an upgrade, believe me i would if i could)"
Go into any mobile phone shop, assuming your contract is up and this isn't an early upgrade. They will bite your hands off to flog you an upgrade. If that network's shop won't, try a different one - they absolutely will.
But yes there is plenty of this - large value orders will often only deliver to the cardholder address.
Neil
Post edited at 09:07
In reply to nickinscottishmountains:
Not everyone wants that option - my neighbours work rather different hours to me, and all the couriers have reasonably local depots.
ALL retailers should have, at checkout, options saying:-
1. Do/do not not leave with neighbours if delivery fails
2. A field to give extra "find my house" information
Sometimes you can (and I do) get away with shortening the address and putting it in a spare address line, but this doesn't always work, e.g.
Neil Williams
1 The Footpath VIA ANYROAD
TheTown
DO NOT LEAVE W/NEIGHBOUR.
AB1 2CD
Neil
Not everyone wants that option - my neighbours work rather different hours to me, and all the couriers have reasonably local depots.
ALL retailers should have, at checkout, options saying:-
1. Do/do not not leave with neighbours if delivery fails
2. A field to give extra "find my house" information
Sometimes you can (and I do) get away with shortening the address and putting it in a spare address line, but this doesn't always work, e.g.
Neil Williams
1 The Footpath VIA ANYROAD
TheTown
DO NOT LEAVE W/NEIGHBOUR.
AB1 2CD
Neil
Post edited at 09:15
In reply to Blobb:
Fed-ex are at the premium end - another courier I would pay extra to use *provided they are named*.
Amazon, for example, gives a choice of services - Super Saver, First Class or Next Day, mostly - but they don't name who it'll be. Near me it might be Royal Mail (good), Amazon Couriers (actually Action Express, based on the A421 near the Amazon warehouse at M1 J13 - it is I think a special one for the area near the Ridgmont Amazon warehouse, and fairly OK if slightly less convenient than RM) or Yodel (hopeless).
So it's Hobson's choice. I want to choose *which company* is being used, because so many companies can't be trusted to make a quality choice for me.
Neil
Fed-ex are at the premium end - another courier I would pay extra to use *provided they are named*.
Amazon, for example, gives a choice of services - Super Saver, First Class or Next Day, mostly - but they don't name who it'll be. Near me it might be Royal Mail (good), Amazon Couriers (actually Action Express, based on the A421 near the Amazon warehouse at M1 J13 - it is I think a special one for the area near the Ridgmont Amazon warehouse, and fairly OK if slightly less convenient than RM) or Yodel (hopeless).
So it's Hobson's choice. I want to choose *which company* is being used, because so many companies can't be trusted to make a quality choice for me.
Neil
In reply to Neil Williams:
Now that company the one that seems to be far worse than the rest. I've never had issues with them but I do know people who have. There's a massive thread on the Amazon forums full of complaints about them.
I'm a big fan of suites that let you choose the courier, royal mall or DPD anytime.
> I can think of one specific courier that might not sound out of place in the Alps who would be out of business were it the consumer's choice which to use.
> Neil
Now that company the one that seems to be far worse than the rest. I've never had issues with them but I do know people who have. There's a massive thread on the Amazon forums full of complaints about them.
I'm a big fan of suites that let you choose the courier, royal mall or DPD anytime.
In reply to Neil Williams:
last time i tried going into an orange shop for this reason, they told me they couldn't do any deals for me and i'd need to call the upgrades department. maybe that's changed
i'd rather a high value item was delivered to the mailroom at my work where it'll be logged in a delivery book, signed for, xrayed and delivered to my desk. than left at my flat or a card popped through my door and i have to go and collect it.
last time i tried going into an orange shop for this reason, they told me they couldn't do any deals for me and i'd need to call the upgrades department. maybe that's changed
i'd rather a high value item was delivered to the mailroom at my work where it'll be logged in a delivery book, signed for, xrayed and delivered to my desk. than left at my flat or a card popped through my door and i have to go and collect it.
In reply to rallymania:
Then change network - go in as a new customer! You can port your number.
The shops most probably can't negotiate a continuation of contract deal, but that's not the only option for a new phone.
Neil
Then change network - go in as a new customer! You can port your number.
The shops most probably can't negotiate a continuation of contract deal, but that's not the only option for a new phone.
Neil
Post edited at 10:57
In reply to GLUF:
Wow, you are a helpful courier... which one: FedEx, DHL, UPS..?
No, not really; since it was from a national bedding chain, delivery charge is essentially a way of reducing the price tag. A ruse I am aware of, and quite happy to accept the total bed and delivery cost as the price of the delivered bed, as opposed to a 'free delivery' price tag.
As for assembly, I'd rather do that myself than risk relying on someone I know nothing about to bodge it together (not meant to be a comment on your bed-assembling skills).
I'm guessing you either work for, or own an independent bedding shop, and that your additional customer service is factored in to the tag price of the bed, and forms part of the sales contract.
> When I deliver I take upstairs, unpack, assemble and dispose of Old bed, free, thats customer service.
Wow, you are a helpful courier... which one: FedEx, DHL, UPS..?
> £45 you been robbed
No, not really; since it was from a national bedding chain, delivery charge is essentially a way of reducing the price tag. A ruse I am aware of, and quite happy to accept the total bed and delivery cost as the price of the delivered bed, as opposed to a 'free delivery' price tag.
As for assembly, I'd rather do that myself than risk relying on someone I know nothing about to bodge it together (not meant to be a comment on your bed-assembling skills).
I'm guessing you either work for, or own an independent bedding shop, and that your additional customer service is factored in to the tag price of the bed, and forms part of the sales contract.
In reply to captain paranoia:
It's a bit Ryanair to do that. I would hope £45 was representative of the cost of the courier to the business plus the usual profit margin on top. I have no idea if it would be or not - if it includes assembly etc it might well be.
(When I got my 3 piece suite the couriers carried it in, unpacked it and fitted feet, so it wasn't a quick drop and run, and there were two of them. So that's about an hour's worth of time at the minimum wage before you even consider the cost of the lorry etc)
Neil
It's a bit Ryanair to do that. I would hope £45 was representative of the cost of the courier to the business plus the usual profit margin on top. I have no idea if it would be or not - if it includes assembly etc it might well be.
(When I got my 3 piece suite the couriers carried it in, unpacked it and fitted feet, so it wasn't a quick drop and run, and there were two of them. So that's about an hour's worth of time at the minimum wage before you even consider the cost of the lorry etc)
Neil
Post edited at 12:40
In reply to Neil Williams:
Perhaps, but one of the first questions I asked was about delivery cost, so it was factored into the bed cost from the outset. I know it's their choice of central warehouse, so you could argue that it's really up to them to sort out, but it had to come from Tewkesbury to Reading. I don't think £45 is actually that out of order to deliver something the size of a double bed and mattress. Whatever, I was happy with the price I paid for the delivered bed.
Do we need to distinguish from an arbitrary couriers, who merely deliver, and someone (deliverer & installer/commissioner) working for the supplier? If I ran a general courier service, I would not want my staff to have any dealings beyond delivering to the address; too many issues with liabilities over damage, etc. if you're installing. It would be like buying a TV from Amazon and having the courier come in, unpack it, connect up the aerial, power & other gizmos, and then tune it for you. It's not a courier's responsibility.
> It's a bit Ryanair to do that.
Perhaps, but one of the first questions I asked was about delivery cost, so it was factored into the bed cost from the outset. I know it's their choice of central warehouse, so you could argue that it's really up to them to sort out, but it had to come from Tewkesbury to Reading. I don't think £45 is actually that out of order to deliver something the size of a double bed and mattress. Whatever, I was happy with the price I paid for the delivered bed.
> When I got my 3 piece suite the couriers carried it in, unpacked it and fitted feet
Do we need to distinguish from an arbitrary couriers, who merely deliver, and someone (deliverer & installer/commissioner) working for the supplier? If I ran a general courier service, I would not want my staff to have any dealings beyond delivering to the address; too many issues with liabilities over damage, etc. if you're installing. It would be like buying a TV from Amazon and having the courier come in, unpack it, connect up the aerial, power & other gizmos, and then tune it for you. It's not a courier's responsibility.
In reply to captain paranoia:
Fair point.
I think to me the ideal is that the basic non-optional service is included, with the courier to be used and specific referenceable service used (e.g. "Royal Mail Second Class") shown, like is encouraged by eBay. Then companies would do well to offer choices at the additional marginal cost (both to them and from the courier plus a profit margin), again with the service named (e.g. "Royal Mail Special Delivery"), for those who for whatever reason don't like the default.
I don't like companies charging fees for things that aren't optional to hide the real price. So if I can't collect it from the showroom in my car for free (which would be my choice for any such item that would fit in my car, e.g. all white goods I have purchased), the price shouldn't exclude basic delivery, as it's dishonest.
I also don't want to pay extra for "next day", say, if I don't know who the courier is. Some I just don't trust and certainly wouldn't pay any extra to. Some I would pay extra regardless of the delivery timing, e.g. Royal Mail or DPD. Some, as hinted at above, I would pay extra just to avoid. Some, e.g. Hermes, I'm pretty neutral about and am OK with them being the default but I wouldn't go out of my way to use them.
And yes Hermes do normally card, they did yesterday! I still think the OP should complain directly to them. If the courier didn't card, he isn't doing his job properly, and they won't know to do anything about it if you don't complain.
Neil
Fair point.
I think to me the ideal is that the basic non-optional service is included, with the courier to be used and specific referenceable service used (e.g. "Royal Mail Second Class") shown, like is encouraged by eBay. Then companies would do well to offer choices at the additional marginal cost (both to them and from the courier plus a profit margin), again with the service named (e.g. "Royal Mail Special Delivery"), for those who for whatever reason don't like the default.
I don't like companies charging fees for things that aren't optional to hide the real price. So if I can't collect it from the showroom in my car for free (which would be my choice for any such item that would fit in my car, e.g. all white goods I have purchased), the price shouldn't exclude basic delivery, as it's dishonest.
I also don't want to pay extra for "next day", say, if I don't know who the courier is. Some I just don't trust and certainly wouldn't pay any extra to. Some I would pay extra regardless of the delivery timing, e.g. Royal Mail or DPD. Some, as hinted at above, I would pay extra just to avoid. Some, e.g. Hermes, I'm pretty neutral about and am OK with them being the default but I wouldn't go out of my way to use them.
And yes Hermes do normally card, they did yesterday! I still think the OP should complain directly to them. If the courier didn't card, he isn't doing his job properly, and they won't know to do anything about it if you don't complain.
Neil
Post edited at 16:31
In reply to GLUF:
Correct, I ordered it, Hermes allegedly attempted delivery three times but with no cards, I have no evidence they tried to deliver it. And then it goes back to Blacks, and Blacks refund it without trying to find a way to get it to the buyer. Again, what I ordered from Blacks is irrelevant.
Correct, I ordered it, Hermes allegedly attempted delivery three times but with no cards, I have no evidence they tried to deliver it. And then it goes back to Blacks, and Blacks refund it without trying to find a way to get it to the buyer. Again, what I ordered from Blacks is irrelevant.
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