UKC

Hi
you know when you see De Fibs in shopping centers and offices and stuff, well they cost about £625 plus Vat. Why? They just should not be VATed , if more people bought them they would be cheaper, if Defibs came down in price, there would be more and it would save lives, all this CPR of pumping chests is pretty much bollocks without a Defib arriving in quick order, lets get a campaign going, a petition, how do we do it??????????
GLUF

In reply to GLUF:

I'll sign if you sort one.

In reply to GLUF:
The best chance of survival you can hope for is 40% and that's based on someone being there ready with a defib the ability to do CPR effectively and an ambulance minutes away.

In reply to GLUF:

I agree with you, though most of the organisations buying them will be big enough to be able to claim the VAT back anyway.

Neil

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

I have had 2 cardiac arrests and 40% sounds great to me, infact it`s getting close to 50:50. Defibs are total no brainers, anyone can use one. I am sure that if enough were sold they would be £200 or less, it`s a micro chip and a battery for heavens sake.

In reply to Neil Williams:

Yes but without VAT other organizations could, every public building should have one. They really could be something that people have in the home and in cars.

In reply to GLUF:

Is there a shelf life on an unused Defib?

In reply to GLUF:

You pay tax on everything else - why not on being brought back from near death

In reply to GLUF:

It's Ventricular Added Tax! If you want to breathe again, then you must either be able to pay it, or, put up with CPR!;-(

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

8 years.

In reply to GLUF:

I guess most of the cost is design and calibration, after all it's not just a case of sticking 240V through the casualty...

Neil

In reply to Neil Williams:

With modern tech, I honestly do not believe they are that's sophisticated or expensive to make, and as a medical device they really should not attract VAT.

In reply to GLUF:

Doesn't have to include VAT, just buy in intelligently, not all organisations pay VAT!

In reply to The New NickB:

Sorry I do not understand what you mean.
As far as I am aware all entities pay VAT, just that some can claim it back.
Also why on a life saving piece of medical kit should people have to frig about, they just should be available as cheaply as possible.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:


the batteries will lose power and the sticky pads go out of date,although im sure they would be ok.

In reply to GLUF:

they are pretty sophisticated, thats pretty much the point of them, they can work out whether it's a shockable rhythm or not and then tell you what to do, takes all the years of training and experience of looking at an ecg in a resus situation and applies complex mathematics to the problem. they have a self testing programme, pads and batteries last for a few years.

d

In reply to GLUF:





Charities can buy medical equipment at zero-rate VAT.

In reply to jimtitt:

Yes they can, and a person with a suitable disability can buy certain mattresses zero rated, however a DeFib can only be used as a medical device to save life and if they were cheaper more would be sold, and if more were sold they would be cheaper, this is a positive feedback loop which the government could kickstart by zero rating.
No one on this thread has given me any reason to understand why they should not be zero rated.

In reply to GLUF:

I imagine they are no as simplistic as you make out. Furthermore there are very stringent requirements on the parts and extensive testing required for medical equipment + maintenance. This will bump up the cost substantially from a mass market consumer device, even one made of the same bits.

In reply to Removed User:

But they are simple to use, so the issue is not how expensive they are to make, but how they can be made as widely available as possible by being as inexpensive as possible, and not adding 20% to the price would be a step in the right direction.

In reply to GLUF:

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/

bottom of page

In reply to Papillon:

Thank you but there is already a petition. But thanks for pointing me in the right Direction, maybe you could sign it. http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/57478

In reply to GLUF:

Why should I pay my taxes so someone else can get the benefit of one of these machines? Make them user pays, it would be relatively simple to make them coin operated like parking machines.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Yes the batteries do eventually discharge. the moderen ones self test and will beep at you when the battery is low. Though the thing with the shortest shelf life seems to be the sticky pads.

In reply to GLUF:

Just so I'm clear of your argument:

You feel that the difference between £625 and £750 is exactly the tipping point between quite a few being around in useful places and every small business having one?

It's about £100k (very roughly) turnover that requires people to register for VAT, so you're saying that this proposed change would make defibs popular amongst micro-businesses?


Is that right?

In reply to GLUF:
I'll definitely sign, it's a no brainer to me as well, your argument makes sense about the cost going down if more people bought them, and visa versa.

With the amount of effort it takes to sign a petition, it'd be obtuse not to, I think.

In reply to Timmd:

.....your argument makes sense about the cost going down if more people bought them, and visa versa.


Believe that if you will! In Germany where the VAT rate is lower(6%)they cost more.

In reply to GLUF:

I regularly make purchases under HMRC exemption self-certification. These are purchases of dedicated specialist communications items for a rescue charity.

The point of VAT, as the name suggests, is that it taxes where value is being added. This is true in any normal commercial operation where goods are purchased and then goods and services are sold at a profit.

In the case of charities and some public services, it is normal for there to be no added value therefore the HMRC tries not to make a meal of things and operate a tax system where it can achieve nothing.

If an ordinary shop or a property or facilities management company buys resuscitation equipment that will remain their property then they will pay VAT.

If a charity provides similar equipment for use at events or in a public place then, if the equipment fall within the correct category and the purchaser has self-certified the purchase, they will not pay VAT.

If an ordinary shop or a property or facilities management company buys resuscitation equipment expressly for donation to a qualifying charity then I believe that there is a method for exempting the purchase from VAT. I have no direct experience of the donation example.



Here are some HMRC pages related to this subject.

CHARITY FUNDED EQUIPMENT
http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/charities/vat/charity-funded.htm

CHARITY MEDICAL
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal...

NOTICE 706/1
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/downloadFile?contentID=HMCE...

CERT E
http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/downloadFile?contentID=HMCE...

In reply to jimtitt:


That probably scuppers that theory then.

In reply to GLUF:

I completely agree. However this is part of a wider VAT issue...the NHS pays VAT on all medical equipment purchases. Whilst the county councils are VAT exempt for the same equipment. This is why there are complex joint working arrangements through the Section 75 rules in which councils purchase equipment for NHS patients. Why isn't the issue with VAT solved properly??? So of our tax that goes to the NHS, up to 20% of it is going straight back to the taxman!

In reply to Timmd:

Well it´s rather simplistic idea that reducing the VAT rate in the UK will encourage more sales which will in turn increase production which will reduce the price still further. Since we are talking about a world product and most of the world doesn´t have VAT this should already have happened. In reality I´d expect that defibrillators are subject to the same market forces as everything else where the manufacturing costs are only a small part of the sale price.
There are vast numbers of products out there that save lives, why one in particular should be singled out when for example car brake pads aren´t escapes me.
A cynic might be of the view it´s better to charge VAT on an object that spends it´s life on a wall and spend the money training another heart surgeon anyway.

In reply to Nicola:

I suppose part of the problem is that people will try and fiddle it. I sell beds and the number of people who try to buy Electric Adjustable beds, sans VAT who have no medical need is incredible.
The sad thing is I sell a mattress to Paraplegics who are sent to me by Spinal Injury Units and I cannot sell those mattresses sans VAT even though they are definitely being bought as a Medical aid.