UKC

And while we're at it, I would like to add Observatory Ridge, North East Buttress, and Tower Ridge to the list of 3 star summer climbs that I think we should stop scratching up with our crampons and axes. And if any of those up and coming climbers even think of starting to set their sights on climbing more classic E-grade rock routes in winter conditions, in the interests of pushing the limits of winter climbing, then they better sort their heads out and think again. And as for anyone thinking of developing a dry tooling venue, I think we should make a compulsory order that they seek prior approval for this, regardless of how obscure the venue.

I mean, the rock needs protected doesn't it, we can't have any visible signs of winter ascents to detract from these classic summer routes? I do think it's OK to have things like trains and pylons and ski tows up mountains though, and cafes on the top, and wide paths and eroded roads and wind turbines and things like that, but when I see some crampon scratches on the rock I just weep silently to myself and think "enough is enough, when will we learn to respect these mountains".

At least the Lakes now has it's Crag Police Policy in effect, so the rocks there will remain free from scratches for future generations. At least until the next ice age completely obliterates any sign of the current routes that is. Or we nuke the world. Or a meteor hits us. Or we all die of disease or famine. But let's not worry about things like that, let's put our best efforts into placing limits and rules and policies in place to try to tie down and regulate this far too freespirited and personal sport of ours.




Yes, this is a knee jerk reaction to:
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/new-lakes-winter-climbing-conditions-guide

And yes, I know this is a bit of a simplified view of things, and yes I know sometimes what we're talking about are rare plants, but jesus, have you seen some of the language used in that thing? Makes me scared to go climbing in the Lakes in case someone is watching and I inadvertently hook into some suspect turf on a route I shouldn't be on on a crag I'm not allowed to visit in winter.... I would think given the big picture of environmental damage caused to our hills and mountains through industry, (irresponsible) tourism and global shifts in weather patterns, some crampon scratches are pretty far down the list of "shit we should sort out to protect the hills".

Just me?

In reply to peebles boy:

Yep, just you

At least the rock will get a winter off this year

In reply to peebles boy:

What about making plastic picks and crampons that don't damage the rock and if you get a bit enthusiastic with them they might break. You will need legislation to ban metal implements and searches at the border for contraband. That may be possible in Scotland if the snp get their independence mind. Can't help you with the lakes though I'm afraid.
Yours
James

I aint even going to bother wasting time trying to reply to your ill informed message above! You obviously have no idea about climbing history or the way in which rock climbing was and has been developed....Your lack of concern for the mountain environment is slightly confusing though!!!

In reply to peebles boy:




http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?n=578131



Fixed it for you

In reply to Cliff Lowther:

Cliff,

Apologies for not hitting the "highlight sarcasm here" button in relation to the bit about railways/cafes etc. It's not a lack of concern for the mountain environment I have, it's the opposite - I'm totally confused why people get their heckles up about tools and crampons scratching rocks when there's much more damage done to the mountains day in day out through the other things I listed above in that paragraph. Hell, thousands of people walking up a dry, loose path to a summer mountain crag each year will do more damage to the hill than winter climbing a route ever will (but that's an acceptable scar on the landscape?)

Re. climbing history - would love to travel back in time and get the early climbers' take on whether using better equipment to climb harder routes at the risk of scratching the rock was more or less important an issue than damaging an entire landscape irreversibly with ski resorts/railways/foresting roads/windfarms etc. In terms of rock climbing development, is it not fair to say that winter ascents of summer rock routes are key to the future development of Winter Climbing and history? And where do we draw the line in "history" anyway? As far as I'm aware, climbing in the UK was initially regarded as simply a training exercise for the Alps and as such was very winter orientated? Or do we go global and travel as far back at the 14th century to the Anasazi, in which case we should be taking their heed and drilling into the rock to improve our safety and ability to get to parts of the cliff we naturally couldn't....oh wait...hold on....that's a can of worms huh!!!

I know this is a years old debate now, and will be for years to come, but some of the wording in the document I referred to above just seemed really "at odds" with some of the main reasons we all climb, whether it is summer, winter, or a combination of both at times!!!

Cheers,
Gordon

In reply to peebles boy:

Sorry Gordon...I'm tired (away on a trip currently) and completely missed the tone of sarcasm in your initial post! ....It really is a Huge can of worms to open...I like to think its all about education...like chalk, bolts etc in a few years time it will all be forgotten about

Good luck!

Cliff

In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:

Touche!

In reply to Cliff Lowther:

Happy travels and enjoy the trip, I'm packing the bag for a day out in the snow!

In reply to peebles boy:

Some people's 'crag police' are other people's 'group of Lakes based climbers, who climb across the different climbing disciplines, (including a great deal and / or to a high level in winter,) coming to a consensus on making all aspects of climbing here sustainable through a series of well attended and consulted on open meetings.'

In reply to James Edwards: side tracking here but have to pull you up, what do you mean if the SNP get "their" independence? Scotland will become indpendent if the Scottish people vote for it i.e. in a democratic manner

In reply to Erik B:

Process of illimination dear boy as it wasn't in the labour, conservative or lib dem manifesto ergo it is the snp's. plus that fact that they do seem rather keen on it don't you think?
James

In reply to James Edwards: you know what Im getting at mate

anyway, politics aside, hope your well

In reply to peebles boy:

I think it is well written and perfectly valid. Clarifies some good points. Maybe you should feel slightly uneasy when tooling up, at least enough to be fully conscious of your actions rather than blinded by the shear buzz of 'fun'. Climbing is not and never was a 'do what the hell you like' activity. Climbers have always been self aware and self governing. From that dick at millstone to that dick on cerro torre.... The response is always pragmatic.

In reply to peebles boy:

Having looked at the document, I don't think it's the look of crampon scratches that there is any objection to?

In reply to peebles boy:

Good luck putting any scratches on Ben Nevis ridges at the moment - they're Andes-like snow aretes!

In reply to peebles boy:
Have to agree there are more important issues in protecting the mountain environment than crampon scratches.

In reply to jas wood:

On the other hand you'd presumably also agree that whataboutery is invariably a pathetic response to anything?

jcm

In reply to jas wood:

Firstly there are lots of issues effecting mountain environments, doesn't mean you have to tackle them in 'size' order.

Secondly, it's about a bit more than cosmetics.

In reply to Exile:
Not suggesting there isn't an argument i was stating there are bigger fish to fry with regards to mounatin environment.
If it's not about cosmetics then what is the issue with crampon scratches?

In reply to peebles boy:

Yeah,let's get some statutes set up to stop prechalking as well....

Far worse than global warming,or bolts in profusion....

In reply to jas wood:

That a small number of ascents of mid or high grade extreme routes, which some argued could have become more popular in the future due to the advance in dry tooling techniques, would potentially render them unclimbable in both Summer and Winter after a small number of winter ascents through loss of crucial holds / gear placements.

In reply to peebles boy:

Troll and not even a good one?