UKC

I'm looking for an outer insulation layer that I can use as a belay jacket but can also use in really wild conditions when practicing my nav and survival in places like the Cairngorm plateau at night. i.e. Scotland at its very worst. My current belay jacket is a ME Fitzroy jacket. I was wondering what more beefy options there are or whether people would generally just layer up/under this.

Thanks

In reply to iamaclimber:

ME citadel ?

In reply to iamaclimber:

Keep the Fitzroy and look to your base layer. Beefing up the outer is all very well until you get remotely aerobic then it's a nightmare.

I cannot recommend Brynje mesh highly enough, be that in a vest, t-shirt or long sleeve, depending how warm you run. Keeps you astoudingly warm, yet bone dry when things gets lively.

In reply to BnB:

Thanks. I've seen the mesh stuff. How do you tend to layer it? I mean, do you do away with a traditional base layer in favour of the mesh, or add to it?

In reply to iamaclimber:

Works best with a normal base layer over it, or a skin-friendly microgrid fleece like the Patagonia R1 or Rab AL. This season in high winds I've had most comfort with the followng setup:

Mesh tee or vest
Rab AL microgrid baselayer long sleeve tee
Rab Strata vest (breathable puffy)
Softshell outer (optional swap with hardshell)
100-133 gsm Belay jacket

Warm and dry from dawn til dusk. Having two fewer layers on the sleeves than the core works well for comfort and temperature regulation as well. Just wish it would stop bloody blowing and snowing so I can aim at something harder than II/III ridges.

In reply to iamaclimber:

The Buffalo Systems Parka or Mountain Jacket would see you well in the worst nightly conditions.

In reply to iamaclimber:

A buffalo or montane pile pertex belay jacket (with full zip) are both pretty bombproof.

In reply to iamaclimber:

The best belay parka I've seen for truly horrible, cold, and wet conditions is the Arcteryx Dually Belay parka. Not cheap, however.

http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web07f/ms-ma-arcteryx-dually-belay

http://arcteryx.com/Product.aspx?gender=mens&model=Dually-Belay-Parka&a...

In reply to iamaclimber:

Wait, you want to go up onto the plateau in wild weather... at night? To practice survival?

I feel as though if you were actually skilled and experienced enough for this to be anything other than a wildly terrible idea, which it might be even if you are very skilled and experienced, you wouldn't be posting on UKC asking about what other people would do, and what jackets people would recommend for this.

Scotland at its very worse will very easily kill you, simple as that. I would advise strongly against going up onto the plateau in wild weather at night, to practice nav and 'survival'.

In reply to Blackmud:

You have a point. The line between an extraordinarily rich and challenging adventure and a plain old bad idea is sometimes quite blurred, and specifically the plateau is an area where it is very easy to step across the line without it being obvious. As numerous tragic events have shown, even recently, to fit, well equipped, and experienced people.

In answer to the OP's question, if they are absolutely hell bent on doing this Buffalo will probably shave a few percent off the risk over the alternatives - but only if they are uninjured.

However I would personally put trips in Winter to the plateau at night 'just to test survival skills' on an unacceptably high risk list, especially if solo. I don't know how old the OP is and I'm aware I sound like a pompous old fart but I'd get a few more years of general hill experience in first - unexpected epics will come rolling around without seeking them out. Either way, stay safe and have fun.

b

In reply to iamaclimber:
I used the long sleeved Brynje mesh layer under my Paramo smock recently in some testing conditions in Scotland and was very impressed with it. Stayed toasty and if you need to vent it dumps heat quickly. The least sweaty I have been in a long time wearing traditional base layers.

Added an R1 hoody during the worst conditions.

In reply to iamaclimber:

Buffalo Belay jacket!

In reply to iamaclimber:

I've forgotten who said it, but isn't there a climber who said "There's no point practicing getting a bad nights sleep"

This can be easily converted to this situation. Instead of practicing night nav, practice moving faster so you're not stuck up there at night.

If you're worried about wild weather, go up on a good day, white out an old mask, or use the old bucket head method, and practice your nav that way.

In reply to iamaclimber:

Thanks all for the concerns. Back to the original question though:

The ME Citadel & Rab Photon Belay look good with 200gms of insulation in the body. Both these jackets seem impossible to find though. Don't know if they're discontinued. Are ther any other options in this range? I can't afford the Duelly. What is the Arcteryx Atom SV like?

Thanks

In reply to iamaclimber:

The answer is still Buffalo though.

If you are too posh for this then Montane Extreme.

b

In reply to iamaclimber:

Black Diamond Stance belay parka, currently on sale at 40% off at Snow and Rock. A lot of Primaloft, warm and very compressible.

In reply to iamaclimber:

If you want insulation from the wind then why not wear a hard shell over the jacket?

Would agree with the others about messing around on the Cairngorm plateau in wild weather at night!

In reply to Michael Gordon:


Plateau + wild weather + dark is a situation you find yourself in not a planned activity. You'll need a wide range of skills to get out of that situation. The Plateau in the dark in winter is where you apply those skills not where you go to practice them.

In reply to iamaclimber:
Atom SV is a great jacket, but much more along the lines of the ME Fitzroy and Rab Generator as it's got 100gsm of Coreloft so same amount of insulation. Agree it's the ME Citadel, Arcteryx Duelly, BD Stance or maybe the Patagonia DAS you need from what you said. All of which you should be able to get even if you have to do a bit of hunting around.

In reply to iamaclimber:

I think i'd be temped by a rather robust tent and a sleeping bag and waiting till morning!

In reply to iamaclimber:


Have you considered Easterhouse?

In reply to BnB:




Visions of someone from UKC wandering about in a storm on the Cairngorm plateau, wearing just Brynje underwear!!!!

In reply to Turdus torquatus:


Definitely wouldn't survive a night out there, especially wearing....!!!!

In reply to JayPee630:

I had a Arcteryx Dually off ebay but sold it again as the hood has limited options to cinch and make it snug (head turns inside), plus it is absolutely huge.

I now have a Kappa Hoody as it addresses those two issues. I know some don't like the fact it is less breathable than pertex, but I find it perfect when I want a really warm belay jacket. Also less expensive.

In reply to iamaclimber:

ME have announced they're updating the Citadel (see the UKC ISPO video reports) so it maybe they've sold all the older versions they have.

Patagonia DAS Parka is a comparable jacket - my DAS is in some ways a better belay jacket than the Citadel (MK I) whilst the Citadel is the better jacket for actually just wearing in absolutely atrocious weather.