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one of my usual retorts to this kind of question is that generalisations are just silly. people are just people etc. however . my wife and her mate , both expat Australians who have both lived in the uk for 8 years have just been up to aviemore for 3 days skiing . on their return they both were both going on about how polite "the scots" they came across were and how the service, without exception, was good. anyway, it seems that they shared more than a couple of jokes with people they dealt with about the rudeness and bad manners of the english. both wife and mate are well educated (post grad degrees ) people who have worked in cafes and bars in the UK. I was quite surprised to hear how they both perceive the way "the English" (as opposed to "the British" ) behave towards people in the service industry. it would seem that they are not alone in this. being english,i of course made a robust defence along the lines of the first sentence above . i m afraid i didnt do too well.
In reply to mike123:
Thanks for posting but I'm afraid I agree with what you said in the first line of your post: their opinions are generalisations of little value.
Thanks for posting but I'm afraid I agree with what you said in the first line of your post: their opinions are generalisations of little value.
In reply to abseil:
Ditto. I've come across some pretty rude Scot, Welsh, Irish, French, Spanish, Italians, Americans &c., &c.
> Thanks for posting but I'm afraid I agree with what you said in the first line of your post: their opinions are generalisations of little value.
Ditto. I've come across some pretty rude Scot, Welsh, Irish, French, Spanish, Italians, Americans &c., &c.
In reply to mike123:
Whether something is rude depends on the established norms, which are often different for the different parties involved. At the extremes, some feel it's rude of strangers to talk to them uninvited, whilst others feel it's rude to keep yourself to yourself.
I think the average Scot is less reserved about talking to strangers than the average person from England. The Irish make the Scots look reserved; the Swedes make the English look outgoing.
Of course, none of this is particularly useful when dealing with an individual, but it can affect the feel of a trip to any of these places. Contrary to what a previous poster said, generalisations can be useful, as long as they don't become prejudices.
So, no, I don't think the English are rude, any more than any other group, but I do think they tend to have less of an expectation of friendly conversation with strangers.
Whether something is rude depends on the established norms, which are often different for the different parties involved. At the extremes, some feel it's rude of strangers to talk to them uninvited, whilst others feel it's rude to keep yourself to yourself.
I think the average Scot is less reserved about talking to strangers than the average person from England. The Irish make the Scots look reserved; the Swedes make the English look outgoing.
Of course, none of this is particularly useful when dealing with an individual, but it can affect the feel of a trip to any of these places. Contrary to what a previous poster said, generalisations can be useful, as long as they don't become prejudices.
So, no, I don't think the English are rude, any more than any other group, but I do think they tend to have less of an expectation of friendly conversation with strangers.
In reply to abseil:
I don't agree with the "generalisations are bad" line. You could if you wanted, gather some data to show whether the generalisation was true (strong correlation between being English and being rude) or false (weak, non-existent, or reverse correlation). If it was true, it would then be interesting to find out why.
Often, you don't need to go out and actually collect statistically valid data because the correlation is strong enough to be noticeable through everyday experience. If people generally agree on such experience you can be pretty sure the correlation is strong and it's then interesting to ask why.
On this matter, I have no idea whether the correlation is strong so I'll stay out of it!
> Thanks for posting but I'm afraid I agree with what you said in the first line of your post: their opinions are generalisations of little value.
I don't agree with the "generalisations are bad" line. You could if you wanted, gather some data to show whether the generalisation was true (strong correlation between being English and being rude) or false (weak, non-existent, or reverse correlation). If it was true, it would then be interesting to find out why.
Often, you don't need to go out and actually collect statistically valid data because the correlation is strong enough to be noticeable through everyday experience. If people generally agree on such experience you can be pretty sure the correlation is strong and it's then interesting to ask why.
On this matter, I have no idea whether the correlation is strong so I'll stay out of it!
In reply to skog:
So, no, I don't think the English are rude, any more than any other group, but I do think they tend to have less of an expectation of friendly conversation with strangers.
very nicely put. my wife has countless tales of her "and how has your day been today ?" being met with "wtf is it to you ?" or "sh1t. of course "
So, no, I don't think the English are rude, any more than any other group, but I do think they tend to have less of an expectation of friendly conversation with strangers.
very nicely put. my wife has countless tales of her "and how has your day been today ?" being met with "wtf is it to you ?" or "sh1t. of course "
In reply to mike123: I don't think your wife and her mate are discovering much about "The English" or "The Scots". They are however discovering quite a lot about "The Australians".
In reply to mike123:
Having worked in the service industry in Scotland for about 7 years the only generalisation I'd hold to is that people are more likely to be rude the older and more affluent they are (obviously only worth as much as any generalisation is like you say). Don't think there's a noticeable difference between the Scottish and English.
Aviemore isn't the best place to make generalisations about the Scottish.
Having worked in the service industry in Scotland for about 7 years the only generalisation I'd hold to is that people are more likely to be rude the older and more affluent they are (obviously only worth as much as any generalisation is like you say). Don't think there's a noticeable difference between the Scottish and English.
Aviemore isn't the best place to make generalisations about the Scottish.
In reply to mike123:
Working in the service industry previously I found that, in general, the Welsh were a lot politer than the English. Very general though, some utter knobs and total stars in both but the general feeling was you'd have more issues in an English store.
Wouldn't like to judge a nation on a couple of meetings though, the above is based on at least five years experience and wouldn't inform be behaviour to someone.
Working in the service industry previously I found that, in general, the Welsh were a lot politer than the English. Very general though, some utter knobs and total stars in both but the general feeling was you'd have more issues in an English store.
Wouldn't like to judge a nation on a couple of meetings though, the above is based on at least five years experience and wouldn't inform be behaviour to someone.
In reply to mike123:
I think you can reasonably generalise about these things.
I think in general people in the north are friendlier than those in the south. Russian service industry workers are typically quite brusque, and sometimes breathtakingly rude. They think English politeness is adorable.
I think you can reasonably generalise about these things.
I think in general people in the north are friendlier than those in the south. Russian service industry workers are typically quite brusque, and sometimes breathtakingly rude. They think English politeness is adorable.
In reply to mike123:
Im not quite getting the Question. People are just people Regardless of an Accident of birth.
I would also add that some people most would consider Rude Turn out to be the Nicest and most Compassionate people imaginable, while people who seem to be well Mannered and Decent are total selfish mofos.
Im not quite getting the Question. People are just people Regardless of an Accident of birth.
I would also add that some people most would consider Rude Turn out to be the Nicest and most Compassionate people imaginable, while people who seem to be well Mannered and Decent are total selfish mofos.
In reply to Choss:
I agree, it's sometimes a question of superficiality. My observation of Russians, for example, is that they are much colder with strangers than us, but much warmer with friends.
I agree, it's sometimes a question of superficiality. My observation of Russians, for example, is that they are much colder with strangers than us, but much warmer with friends.
In reply to mike123:
I always thought Italians were very rude!
My Polish friends who have lived here for a while say that we are very polite compared to them - its not natural to say please or thank you, for example, in Poland.
I always thought Italians were very rude!
My Polish friends who have lived here for a while say that we are very polite compared to them - its not natural to say please or thank you, for example, in Poland.
In reply to alexcollins123:
Apparently there's a Dutch frankness or forwardness, which some English people can take as being rude, where as (to the Dutch) it's more a matter of stating things how they are, so people know where they stand.
My Dutch friend definitely speaks her mind, if you were towards the more reserved end of 'Englishness', I can see how one might take it as rudeness. A friend of an older brother who is more towards the reserved end, found it a little bit of a culture shock when he first moved to Amsterdam, I understand.
Compared to an English sis in law of mine though, the sis in law is ruder than my Dutch friend, it's taken the family (including my other sis in law) a bit of getting used to...
Apparently there's a Dutch frankness or forwardness, which some English people can take as being rude, where as (to the Dutch) it's more a matter of stating things how they are, so people know where they stand.
My Dutch friend definitely speaks her mind, if you were towards the more reserved end of 'Englishness', I can see how one might take it as rudeness. A friend of an older brother who is more towards the reserved end, found it a little bit of a culture shock when he first moved to Amsterdam, I understand.
Compared to an English sis in law of mine though, the sis in law is ruder than my Dutch friend, it's taken the family (including my other sis in law) a bit of getting used to...
Post edited at 15:26
In reply to mike123:
It also depends on where in England you are.
You are more likely to find friendly folk in places with a sizable local population than in a place with lots of incomers who may be less secure in their environment
It also depends on where in England you are.
You are more likely to find friendly folk in places with a sizable local population than in a place with lots of incomers who may be less secure in their environment
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
I've found people more 'pass the time of day' friendly in places where less people are passing though.
> It also depends on where in England you are.
> You are more likely to find friendly folk in places with a sizable local population than in a place with lots of incomers who may be less secure in their environment
I've found people more 'pass the time of day' friendly in places where less people are passing though.
Post edited at 15:23
In reply to ebygomm:
The UK government and all of the national newspapers, for example.
> I think some people often confuse England with London.
The UK government and all of the national newspapers, for example.
In reply to mike123:
The southern English are very polite and keep themselves to themselves, unlike the northern English who are rude. Incredible but in the north complete strangers will try to strike up a conversation with you even before you've been introduced!! How rude is that?!
You wouldn't encounter such rude behaviour on the 07:47 commuter train from Tunbridge Wells to London.....
The southern English are very polite and keep themselves to themselves, unlike the northern English who are rude. Incredible but in the north complete strangers will try to strike up a conversation with you even before you've been introduced!! How rude is that?!
You wouldn't encounter such rude behaviour on the 07:47 commuter train from Tunbridge Wells to London.....
In reply to mike123:
Are the English rude? No, because my manners are perfect.
What? Oh, sorry, I thought we were meant to post obvious non sequiturs
Are the English rude? No, because my manners are perfect.
What? Oh, sorry, I thought we were meant to post obvious non sequiturs
In reply to alexcollins123:
I got the piss taken out of me by a deli owner in New York (and not in a friendly way - he thought I'd passed out of earshot) for thanking him when he handed me my sandwich and again when he handed me my change. I suppose it sounds odd if you're not used to it, but I do it automatically!
> My Polish friends who have lived here for a while say that we are very polite compared to them - its not natural to say please or thank you, for example, in Poland.
I got the piss taken out of me by a deli owner in New York (and not in a friendly way - he thought I'd passed out of earshot) for thanking him when he handed me my sandwich and again when he handed me my change. I suppose it sounds odd if you're not used to it, but I do it automatically!
In reply to alexcollins123:
Not so much in the cities, but would agree in the countryside. Most Polish country folk are basically peasants.
Not so much in the cities, but would agree in the countryside. Most Polish country folk are basically peasants.
In reply to mike123:
Several times eating out in Los Angeles, when the waiter placed anything in front of me, I would instinctively say thank you. My American colleagues think this hilarious.
"What're you thanking him for, you're paying for your meal?!"
Several times eating out in Los Angeles, when the waiter placed anything in front of me, I would instinctively say thank you. My American colleagues think this hilarious.
"What're you thanking him for, you're paying for your meal?!"
In reply to Fredt:
Personally I make a point of treating waiters and those in similar jobs as human beings. And I think it really *is* rude not to, no matter what the local mores. They're not machines, you've got to acknowledge them.
Mind you, when I used to do this at High Table in Merton, I got funny looks not only from the Fellows, but from the college servants too
Personally I make a point of treating waiters and those in similar jobs as human beings. And I think it really *is* rude not to, no matter what the local mores. They're not machines, you've got to acknowledge them.
Mind you, when I used to do this at High Table in Merton, I got funny looks not only from the Fellows, but from the college servants too
In reply to mike123:
A number of people, mostly German I think, have chuckled to me about English people apologising, usually by muttering "sorry", when someone else bumps into them.
A number of people, mostly German I think, have chuckled to me about English people apologising, usually by muttering "sorry", when someone else bumps into them.
In reply to mike123:
I think our natural reserve can seem rude to some other nationalities.
For instance, if I go to my local village baker's, the only people I speak to are the serving staff, unless there is an acquaintance in the shop.
In France I get the impression that I am supposed to greet everyone in the shop prior to being served. Same at breakfast in hotels etc.
I think our natural reserve can seem rude to some other nationalities.
For instance, if I go to my local village baker's, the only people I speak to are the serving staff, unless there is an acquaintance in the shop.
In France I get the impression that I am supposed to greet everyone in the shop prior to being served. Same at breakfast in hotels etc.
In reply to alexcollins123:
This is the same in Russia. I used to get told that it was my biggest linguistic flaw. My Russian was good, but saying please and thank you all the time made me sound really foreign. lol
> My Polish friends who have lived here for a while say that we are very polite compared to them - its not natural to say please or thank you, for example, in Poland.
This is the same in Russia. I used to get told that it was my biggest linguistic flaw. My Russian was good, but saying please and thank you all the time made me sound really foreign. lol
In reply to mike123:
I think cultural elements in regards to social interaction and language have to be taken in to account within each country (generally speaking)
As an example one of my best mates is Greek he used to think people including myself were rude in how we would respond to suggestions etc.
As an example I always remember one of our first interactions when working in a group. He made a suggestion and I replied "That's not bad" as in that's not a bad idea, we'll try it. Unfortunately he didn't fully understand that in Britain especially England our language includes a lot of understatement etc.
We laugh now that he thought my response was rude when infact it was a compliment in that it was a suggestion worth pursuing etc.
I think cultural elements in regards to social interaction and language have to be taken in to account within each country (generally speaking)
As an example one of my best mates is Greek he used to think people including myself were rude in how we would respond to suggestions etc.
As an example I always remember one of our first interactions when working in a group. He made a suggestion and I replied "That's not bad" as in that's not a bad idea, we'll try it. Unfortunately he didn't fully understand that in Britain especially England our language includes a lot of understatement etc.
We laugh now that he thought my response was rude when infact it was a compliment in that it was a suggestion worth pursuing etc.
Post edited at 20:47
In reply to mike123:
Another question might be, is it their nationality or circumstances that makex them more less or more rude? So is it being Scottish that makes them seem less rude, is it working in a place whose main line of work is service industry, and would they be more or less rude in the unnamed place in England that your friends said was more rude?
Another question might be, is it their nationality or circumstances that makex them more less or more rude? So is it being Scottish that makes them seem less rude, is it working in a place whose main line of work is service industry, and would they be more or less rude in the unnamed place in England that your friends said was more rude?
In reply to mike123:
Generalisations are ok, if applied to large groups with a commonality. They are only silly when applied to individuals.
> one of my usual retorts to this kind of question is that generalisations are just silly.
Generalisations are ok, if applied to large groups with a commonality. They are only silly when applied to individuals.
In reply to Tim Chappell:
( and by the way , waiting staff pretend not to hear people who snap their fingers, and I would not recommend doing it, they ARE serving you food after all, so not a good idea to annoy them)
So Tim, I agree with you, I make a point, when working late, to take time to chat to the cleaners, and I am embarrassed, at those colleagues who will totally ignore them as they try to clean around them.
> Personally I make a point of treating waiters and those in similar jobs as human beings. And I think it really *is* rude not to, no matter what the local mores. They're not machines, you've got to acknowledge them.
> What annoyed my daughter, when she was waitressing whilst at Uni, is that ( some) people talked down to her, and treated her as if she was stupid because she was serving them.
( she was a Maths & Physics student, and very possibly brighter than most of those that talked down to her) But that apart it IS only good manners to be polite. ( and by the way , waiting staff pretend not to hear people who snap their fingers, and I would not recommend doing it, they ARE serving you food after all, so not a good idea to annoy them)
So Tim, I agree with you, I make a point, when working late, to take time to chat to the cleaners, and I am embarrassed, at those colleagues who will totally ignore them as they try to clean around them.
In reply to mike123:
As a Scot who speaks to English people every day, No.
However, we have offices all over the world, and when we get visitors coming over and going round the UK offices, they do tend to say how friendly they find the Scots.
( But for all I know they could say that when they are in each region just to be polite
As a Scot who speaks to English people every day, No.
However, we have offices all over the world, and when we get visitors coming over and going round the UK offices, they do tend to say how friendly they find the Scots.
( But for all I know they could say that when they are in each region just to be polite
In reply to Alyson:
Happened to me on a flight, a flight attendant actually said to me "You don't need to say thank you every time I give you something"! I didn't know what to think.
> I got the piss taken out of me by a deli owner in New York ... for thanking him...
Happened to me on a flight, a flight attendant actually said to me "You don't need to say thank you every time I give you something"! I didn't know what to think.
In reply to Tom Valentine:
You never know. I entered a compartment on a train in Germany decades ago and everyone looked at me expectantly, then turned away, not looking happy. I was mystified until someone else came in and introduced herself very formally, saying "My name's Hilde and I'm going to Stuttgart" or some such. Others who entered later did the same thing and I felt boorish...
I sometimes wonder if it still happens in Germany [must go back and see].
> In France I get the impression that I am supposed to greet everyone in the shop prior to being served. Same at breakfast in hotels etc.
You never know. I entered a compartment on a train in Germany decades ago and everyone looked at me expectantly, then turned away, not looking happy. I was mystified until someone else came in and introduced herself very formally, saying "My name's Hilde and I'm going to Stuttgart" or some such. Others who entered later did the same thing and I felt boorish...
I sometimes wonder if it still happens in Germany [must go back and see].
In reply to abseil:
Not to that extent, but it's not considered strange to say hello generally when you enter a train compartment, and is positively expected when you walk into a butchers/doctor's waiting room.
Where I generally notice a difference in politeness between Britain and Germany is in shops, where the staff in Germany are generally super rude in comparison to their British counterparts. Of course, there are exceptions, and some German shops that I positively enjoy going into, but in general, staff try to make you feel like they're doing you a favour, and that you should do your best to leave a shop without disturbing them.
Not to that extent, but it's not considered strange to say hello generally when you enter a train compartment, and is positively expected when you walk into a butchers/doctor's waiting room.
Where I generally notice a difference in politeness between Britain and Germany is in shops, where the staff in Germany are generally super rude in comparison to their British counterparts. Of course, there are exceptions, and some German shops that I positively enjoy going into, but in general, staff try to make you feel like they're doing you a favour, and that you should do your best to leave a shop without disturbing them.
In reply to Green Porridge:
That's not my experience of climbing/ mountaineering shops in Germany!... But then they might have just wanted to practice their (excellent) English on me?
That's not my experience of climbing/ mountaineering shops in Germany!... But then they might have just wanted to practice their (excellent) English on me?
In reply to Jim C:
I think that's just the nature of the service industry though, especially in more up market restaurants. I know some employers are wary about employing students for that reason. People don't want to be served by someone who by comparison would make them feel stupid and I think being a servant doesn't sit well with a lot of educated people who can sometimes take it personally if they're not used to being treated as such. It doesn't make these customers nice but it doesn't make them monsters either, they're just paying for an experience. If someone wants to get their credit card out so they can sit somewhere looking like a dick, clicking their fingers while everyone laughs at them behind their backs then that's fine, as long as they pay their bill.
> ( she was a Maths & Physics student, and very possibly brighter than most of those that talked down to her) But that apart it IS only good manners to be polite.
I think that's just the nature of the service industry though, especially in more up market restaurants. I know some employers are wary about employing students for that reason. People don't want to be served by someone who by comparison would make them feel stupid and I think being a servant doesn't sit well with a lot of educated people who can sometimes take it personally if they're not used to being treated as such. It doesn't make these customers nice but it doesn't make them monsters either, they're just paying for an experience. If someone wants to get their credit card out so they can sit somewhere looking like a dick, clicking their fingers while everyone laughs at them behind their backs then that's fine, as long as they pay their bill.
In reply to abseil:
a flight attendant actually said to me "You don't need to say thank you every time I give you something"!
When I was working in a shop I once felt obliged to say to a customer from one of the southern states of America that he didn't need to call me 'sir' every time he wanted to ask a question. It's just good manners there, and I appreciated the respectfulness, but it always feels too deferential to me (or sarcastic, when said to your least favourite maths teacher) in this country.
Mind you, I suppose it would have been politer of me not to have mentioned it
a flight attendant actually said to me "You don't need to say thank you every time I give you something"!
When I was working in a shop I once felt obliged to say to a customer from one of the southern states of America that he didn't need to call me 'sir' every time he wanted to ask a question. It's just good manners there, and I appreciated the respectfulness, but it always feels too deferential to me (or sarcastic, when said to your least favourite maths teacher) in this country.
Mind you, I suppose it would have been politer of me not to have mentioned it
In reply to alexcollins123:
In my travels around the world I have found the English rude but you and your international friends are correct the engineers in southern uk are the worst
In my travels around the world I have found the English rude but you and your international friends are correct the engineers in southern uk are the worst
In reply to dek:
It's actually a specific climbing/outdoors shop that I'm thinking of as an outstanding example, where I enjoy giving them money. A super bunch they are! However, try a department store or supermarket....
It's actually a specific climbing/outdoors shop that I'm thinking of as an outstanding example, where I enjoy giving them money. A super bunch they are! However, try a department store or supermarket....
In reply to Sharp:
And tip.
> (In reply to Jim C)
>
> [...]
>
> I think that's just the nature of the service industry though... If someone wants to get their credit card out so they can sit somewhere looking like a dick, clicking their fingers while everyone laughs at them behind their backs then that's fine, as long as they pay their bill.
>
> [...]
>
> I think that's just the nature of the service industry though... If someone wants to get their credit card out so they can sit somewhere looking like a dick, clicking their fingers while everyone laughs at them behind their backs then that's fine, as long as they pay their bill.
And tip.
In reply to mike123:
Ideas of ‘courtesy’ are surprisingly variable – I sometimes think it’s almost more important to understand local norms of courtesy than to speak the language. So as mentioned above, it’s normal and expected to say ‘bonjour’ when you go into a French shop, you come over as a discourteous foreigner if you don't, but in my experience beyond that point French folk are more reserved than Brits. It’s quite normal for Scottish B&B landladies to ask, when you arrive, where you’ve come from, or at breakfast, what your plans for the day are (and they’ll often offer advice on what to do whether you really want it or not). Most visitors find that warm and charming, but I know some just find it intrusive.
I’ve hardly ever had that kind of exchange in France, and when I’ve asked French friends about it they say that these matters are private, and you shouldn’t take a ‘friendly’ interest in them unless your guests (or fellow visitors) positively volunteer the information and seek advice. o it's tricky.
New Yorkers in New York are perhaps on average the rudest people I’ve encountered … New Zealanders among the most spontaneously friendly and helpful (but that was a long time ago). Happy to stand by those generalisations!
Ideas of ‘courtesy’ are surprisingly variable – I sometimes think it’s almost more important to understand local norms of courtesy than to speak the language. So as mentioned above, it’s normal and expected to say ‘bonjour’ when you go into a French shop, you come over as a discourteous foreigner if you don't, but in my experience beyond that point French folk are more reserved than Brits. It’s quite normal for Scottish B&B landladies to ask, when you arrive, where you’ve come from, or at breakfast, what your plans for the day are (and they’ll often offer advice on what to do whether you really want it or not). Most visitors find that warm and charming, but I know some just find it intrusive.
I’ve hardly ever had that kind of exchange in France, and when I’ve asked French friends about it they say that these matters are private, and you shouldn’t take a ‘friendly’ interest in them unless your guests (or fellow visitors) positively volunteer the information and seek advice. o it's tricky.
New Yorkers in New York are perhaps on average the rudest people I’ve encountered … New Zealanders among the most spontaneously friendly and helpful (but that was a long time ago). Happy to stand by those generalisations!
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