UKC

A friend of mine suggested that he’d like to climb a mountain in the Alps with me in the summer. Would you say agreeing to that is a good idea, based on the following? I’m keen but want to assess the risks properly.

Me: several weeks (spread over several years) of alpine experience, including 2 times on Matterhorn Hornli ridge (1 unsuccessful attempt in winter, 1 successful in the summer). Matterhorn was the mountain we have been discussing. I have been climbing trad, ice, multipitch etc for about 7 years now. I know the techniques for abseiling, building anchors, etc. and have done about 4 weeks in total of various courses. Admittedly though my crevasse rescue skills are limited to knowing how to rope up on the glacier, and my avalanche and self-rescue skills are poor.

My partner: used to sport-climb up to French 6a grade, can abseil but alpine experience limited to having walked the Auguille du Midi ridge (before skiing Valle Blanche), and some scrambles at around 3000m altitude. Good fitness (3:10 marathon). We’re good mates and understand each other well.

If you were me, would you take my partner for a week of summer alpine climbing, aiming to do some acclimatisation + something like the Matterhorn Hornli ridge? Effectively committing yourself to be the more experienced team member, i.e. partner will rely on you if anything goes wrong?
As far as objectives go, Matterhorn has the obvious advantage of me having been on it twice, although the ridge is so huge and complex that I would still try to follow the guided parties on the way up.
Would you consider any other objectives? I was thinking e.g. normal route of Monte Rosa for acclimatisation before attempting the Matterhorn. Or perhaps swapping Matterhorn for an easy route up Jungfrau (acclimatisation) and Mittellegi ridge on Eiger (I’ve also done it before). Or something in Chamonix area, followed by the Three Monts route up Mt Blanc (I’ve done Gouter route before).

In reply to alps_p:

Mallory took Irvine!

Anyway, yes I probably would, most people start out learning from more experienced friends. If you are just going for a week, keep it simple and fairly easy, pass some knowledge on. You could always arrange a second trip for the Matterhorn.

Also a bit of pre-trip training, plenty of UK roped scrambling is good practice for the alps IMO.

In reply to alps_p:

Would you have been happy if all your more experienced friends had refused to take you to the alps when you were starting out?

In reply to alps_p:

"Effectively committing yourself to be the more experienced team member, i.e. partner will rely on you if anything goes wrong?"

What about "i.e. I will have to rely on a "beginner" if anything goes wrong"?
I would go for any easy stuff, see how we work together and take it from there.

In reply to davidbeynon:


I reckon that's your answer

I'd rather take an inexperienced partner that I knew, trusted, and got on with, than someone more or equally experienced who I didn't.

In reply to alps_p:


Maybe a course in Avalanche awareness and self-rescue for both of you before you go would be a wise more.
Why get hung up on the Matterhorn when there's so many fine peaks all around it.

In reply to davidbeynon:
I didn't mean to sound harsh. My mate has a lot of enthusiasm and probably more fitness than me, I was merely trying to get opinions on whether what we're planning is safe enough. I spent my first 3 or so weeks in the Alps either with instructors or with much more experienced climbers, and was under the impression that you aren't really qualified to supervise (for the lack of better word) a novice climber unless you've had several solid seasons of experience under your belt, not several scattered weeks like myself.

Sounds like we're good to go ahead with our plans though. Matterhorn has been a dream of his and I wouldn't mind climbing the mountain for the second time. Agree though that there are some other amazing peaks in the area.

In reply to alps_p:


I'd say that about 50% of the people climbing in the Alps right now are with a less experienced partner!

In reply to Dave Garnett:


fine, fine, I understand. I was being cautious, that's it. I've had some close calls when climbing - most of those on courses with instructors! - and have always treated the Alps as something quite serious and not too become complacent about, that's it. Thanks everyone for replies.

In reply to alps_p:

The other important skill is the ability to move quickly on mixed exposed ground without throwing a wobbly or wanting to pitch every V Diff obstacle. Before committing to the Alps, why not take him to N Wales and see how he gets on a few exposed scrambles like Crib Goch, Tryfan North Ridge, Bristly Ridge etc? Even better the Cuillin Ridge. That way you can assess his confidence and speed.

The easy route up Monte Rosa involves crossing a lot of crevassed areas which I wouldn't say are ideal for a rope of just two, one of whom is inexperienced. What if you fall in? It's also not easy to route find in poor weather so as to avoid the serac area. Also apart from the final ridge to Dufourspitz which is is quite suitable for what you have in mind, the rest is more of a snow plod unlike what you will meet on the Hornli Ridge.

In reply to alps_p:

An alpine experienced friend of mine took an inexperienced colleague to the alps for his first season. They did the Walker Spur; the traverse of the Chamonix Aiguilles and the Central Pillar of Freney amongst other routes in the month they were there.

In reply to alps_p:

I have quite a bit of experience climbing at classic grades in the alps, zero formal instruction or guiding qualifications and have take three beginners on alpine trips. My experience has been that up to PDish it is fairly easy to be in control and lead. Above this you need your partner to start doing things and also making decisions. Depending on who it is, this either happens fairly naturally or not all. Based on this, I would advise finding a few warm up routes of PD or less on snow and rock and see how you get on. I don't think I'd want to partner someone on the Matterhorn or similar unless I was very happy with their ability, so perhaps don't suggest this in advance but present it as a bonus if things go well?

In reply to Bob:

You missed one of them off on your profile.

To the OP, sounds like you ought to do it. If he's fitter than you that's a good thing. Go scrambling with him, and check out how well he moves on steep loose ground. That's far more important than what french grade he climbs. Go to Wales or scotland and do some big enchainments and see how he handles it. If its like water off a ducks back, you've got your man...

In reply to mike kann:




Like you, I think big days in the mountains are a better indicator. Doing three long VSs on Cloggy in a day is going to be better training than redpointing a F6c. Alpine days are long, much longer than a typical UK cragging day.

For me it was water off a duck's back.

In reply to alps_p:
If you're taking someone much less experienced, you need to be in control of the situation as far as possible. So may be modify your objectives. If you're having to ask here, you must be unsure and if you're unsure then don't do it - at least not on those routes. You could always go for two weeks and build up to it. Going for only a week and hoping to do the Matterhorn is optimistic anyway given the weather!

In reply to alps_p:

I think with Alpinism what you climb depends on the weakest link, which differs from a lot of uk stuff where a weaker/less experienced climber can second everything. Alpinism to me needs more of a team effort.

Also, I think it depends on how much responsibility you want to have on your shoulders. I like to be able to discuss objective dangers, the weather, route-finding, etc with my partner and find it quite stressful making all these major decisions on behalf of someone else. I guess it depends how you feel about doing this?

In reply to alps_p:

"Admittedly though my crevasse rescue skills are limited to knowing how to rope up on the glacier, and my avalanche and self-rescue skills are poor." - IF you're set on the Matterhorn that's mainly a rock day but why not hire a guide for a day's self rescue training for your first day. Or take a more experienced friend
I've not got beyond AD- grades yet (hopefully this year) but other advice here sounds good to me i.e. back off a grade or two for the first few days to see how you move together on steep loose ground.

In reply to alps_p:

I think the real question is whether you are happy in your own mind to take on the responsibility. I think it is worth you both doing some roped and unroped scrambling in the UK to teach him the skills of moving together. Follow it up with some familiarisation days (not just altitude acclimatisation) when you get out there.

Don't be obsessed by grades - just being up high in the Alps is a fantastic experience and its possible to have great days out on technically easy and fairly safe routes. Start on some easy stuff and take it from there. Be prepared to be flexible and change your objectives if you find that what you've planned is too difficult - or too easy. You've done the Hornli before so you'll be able to judge whether as a team you're up to it. You'll be fine as long as you choose routes which suit you both as a team.

In reply to alps_p:
All good sensible answers to your question, just a couple of points that I would add.

The technical sport rock grade he climbs is almost irrelevant, nothing you are likely to attempt this trip will come close to it. As you will already know, the Hornli ridge is mostly a long diff with a few bits of V Diff, but that does not minimise its seriousness, which remains substantial. The diff bits mostly have to be more or less soloed, so he has to be happy moving on easy but serious ground for extended periods.

Obviously it is worth having alternative routes, to deal with bad weather, mental wobbles or whatever. Never get too fixated on a particular route in the Alps, adjust to what conditions allow, so you at least come away from the trip with something worthwhile. I try to have a full range of fall-back options mentally worked out, in case the main targets are not suitable for whatever reason.

You may find that he is more un-nerved by extended amounts of loose broken ground or the general impressiveness of the Alps than any technicality. Last year I was climbing with a relative novice who certainly was technically strong enough but was un-nerved by a steep, loose and unpleasant descent where we were never very safe. Fortunately he had the courage to be honest with me about having lost confidence, so we were able to adjust our main objective from something quite demanding to something less committing, but still on a 4000m peak - basically just not ready at that point in his climbing career for serious Alpine exposure. Your mate may feel the same, or may take to it like a duck to water, but the overall sense of seriousness in the Alps takes most people a while to get comfortable with.

So try for some warm up routes were you can easily back off if the brown stuff hits the fan, where the situation is relatively controlled. Then work up to more challenging routes if it seems to be going OK.

In reply to alps_p:
As long as you are fully aware of their experience and accept that then i think its ok.. assume nothing and now for a story!

Many years ago in Chamonix with a biggish group. Quite a few of us decided to do the cosmiques arete. fine! But to move faster we split into pairs, the person i teamed up with i had climbed briefly in the valley and assumed they were fine from who they were with and how they climbed...

1st abseil. "don't know how to".. great!! I lowered him down which held up other groups and all was fine and we finished the route ok. In the end all was ok but i knew that it wasn't as balanced a team as i had hoped.

Next day climbing one of the gullies on the cosmiques to get back to the midi station with a different mate i found 2 pieces of my gear in the snow that he had dropped but not told me.

All was fine in this situation but the main point is to make sure you are honestly aware of their experience and as long as you are confident enough to support them then great.. but be honest with each other.

In reply to alps_p:
You are basically putting yourself in the position that a guide finds himself in a lot of the time. Would a guide take an alpine novice up the Matterhorn on his first week? Well the Zermatt guides do that quite often but of course they know the mountain like you know your backyard and with that knowledge they know when to back off or continue. You've had two unsuccessful attempts and so don't know the mountain, but also you'd maybe have a nagging desire to push on and get it done even if things weren't working out properly. I almost certainly wouldn't entertain the idea. It's a very lonely and responsible job when you know that relying on your ropemate isn't an option and that it's just YOU that has to make the right decision all the time...

A fabulous introduction for him would be the Breithorn > Pollux > Castor > Naso de Liskamm > Monte Rosa traverse over four days. And by adding another day you could tick Dufourspitze from the Margherita.

In reply to jon:
Is that traverse really less serious than the Hornli though Jon?

(Sustained high altitude as well)

In reply to jon:

to be clear, I've had one successful attempt in the summer with decent time to the summit (4hrs). One attempt in poor, snowed up conditions in the winter - turned around at Solvay hut. I wouldn't compare the summer and winter conditions on this mountain, it's radically different when the entire ridge is covered in lots of snow.

I think the consensus from all the replies here is that yes, it can be possible for me and my mate to climb in the Alps, but we'll plan to do a challenging ridge in the spring in Wales/Lakes first, and then once in the Alps, some acclimatization on an easier peak before deciding if we're up for the Matterhorn. I may need to make it a 1.5 week trip instead of just 1 week.

In reply to Simon4:

Yes absolutely. The harder bits (Liskamm traverse and Zumstein > Dufour) are optional. I've done it with various alpine novices. It's a high altitude walk.

In reply to alps_p:

Sorry, I misread your OP and put an 'un' in front of your successful summer ascent - sloppy reading!

In reply to anyone:

Can I hijack this a bit by asking for some decent routes for a first summer alpine season ? Any area, happy soloing around V-Diff mountain routes and leading HS,4b in summer. Round about III in winter but my climbing partner climbs harder grades than myself and I'm happy seconding harder too.

Happy with moving together roped up and done basic crevasse rescue. Loads of big scrambling days up on Skye.

Cheers !

In reply to Nath93:

Arolla (Switzerland) and Ailefroide (France) are both pretty good for a first alpine season -- it's where I'd take a "less experienced partner" as there are so many options.

In reply to Nath93:

Not wishing to be sarcastic Nath, but it is best to do a search for "first Alpine visit/season". Lots and lots of suggestions in previous threads.

In reply to Simon4: True that my friend, a silly question on my part.

In reply to Nath93:

Look who Whymper took with him on the first ascent of the Matterhorn.

Some of them were complete novices.

And that went ok (ish).