UKC

Sport and Scottish indepance?

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 Al Evans 20 Feb 2014

Watching the winter olympic and realising and being excited by how well the Scots are doing for team GB (esp curling) I just wondered how things would go with an independant Scotland. Would the Scots still compete as a part of team GB just to get the funding (or indeed pride of competing for the union as they obviously have)? After all it is not without precedent, both the Irish cricket and rugby teams are made up of two seperate countries competing together for one island. Just a thought.

Don't you just hate it when you have a typo on the OP title
Post edited at 08:24
 Chris the Tall 20 Feb 2014
In reply to Al Evans:

I guess they would have the choice, but Scotland would definately set up their own Olympic association and try to get as many competitors as possible.

Curling is very Scottish, but I noticed all the teams supporters were decked on in union flags with barely a saltire in sight.

Tennis would be quite interesting - Murray is very keen on the Davis Cup this year and whilst he is now the cornerstone of the team, English players have been crucial
 The New NickB 20 Feb 2014
In reply to Chris the Tall:

Would Murray even get a vote, he seems to own a hotel in Scotland, but his main residence is in London.
 ByEek 20 Feb 2014
In reply to The New NickB:

> Would Murray even get a vote, he seems to own a hotel in Scotland, but his main residence is in London.

I would imagine that the same applies to many of Scotland's wealthier lairds.
OP Al Evans 20 Feb 2014
In reply to Chris the Tall:

The point is Scotland have no scale of sport funding on anything like the the UK support. may we see a whole raft of scottish sportspeople transferring their alleigance to GB just out of necessity.
 Loughan 20 Feb 2014
In reply to Al Evans:

> The point is Scotland have no scale of sport funding on anything like the the UK support. may we see a whole raft of scottish sportspeople transferring their alleigance to GB just out of necessity.

Or even lesser athletes transferring to Scotland having trained in GB but can't make the squad and taking the place of people who've not had the opportunity. See it in Ireland all the time and if I was an Irishman I'd be unhappy about it.
OP Al Evans 20 Feb 2014
In reply to Loughan:
What is there to be unhappy about? The top athletes go for the top funded state?
Even most of the Irish cricket team play in English county cricket to eke out a living?
Post edited at 10:41
 Chris the Tall 20 Feb 2014
In reply to Al Evans:

Depends on the sport - I'm not sure there are any curling facilities in England so they would have least to lose, which is why it interesting that they are draped in union flags.

You'd expect most of the skiiers to come from Scotland, but that is no longer the case - there calling them the "Fridge Kids" cos they learnt their tricks in indoor snow domes. Oh, and the now defunct Sheffield ski village.

These Olympics may be a slight boost for the "Better together" campaign, but the referendum will come after England play in the World Cup and Scotland hosts the commonwealth games, both of which will boost the nationalists.
Removed User 20 Feb 2014
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> interesting that they are draped in union flags.

They are supporting the GB team, which is what the curlers are, just like Lizzy Yarnold and Jenny Jones.
 Banned User 77 20 Feb 2014
In reply to Al Evans:

Scotland would have their own olympic association.

We'd still be GB they'd be Scotland.
 dek 20 Feb 2014
In reply to Al Evans:

Just won the curling Bronze! Jeezus that was tense! Final stone was superb by Eve Muirhead!
OP Al Evans 20 Feb 2014
In reply to Chris the Tall:

> Depends on the sport - I'm not sure there are any curling facilities in England so they would have least to lose, which is why it interesting that they are draped in union flags.

They, and this was confirmed by Lord Coe that a curling rink is being built in Sheffield!
 Chris the Tall 20 Feb 2014
In reply to Removed User:

Absolutely, but Salmond et al have in the past tried to capitalise on the successes of the likes of Hoy and Murray, when they are clearly very British affairs (raw talent honed by British funding).

Now the curlers (and the women have just won bronze BTW) are much more of a pure Scottish success which is why I find it interesting, in the middle of an independence campaign, that they seem to emphasise being British.

Most likely they don't want to get involved and be used by either side.
 cuthill76 20 Feb 2014
In reply to Chris the Tall:

"Absolutely, but Salmond et al have in the past tried to capitalise on the successes of the likes of Hoy and Murray, when they are clearly very British affairs (raw talent honed by British funding)."

Ooh controversial statement, got any proof to back that up? Anyway tire of saying this but the referendum ain't about Alec Salmond.

And by the way the only person I know jumping on this bandwagon, and dragging sport into the political gutter, is Davis Cameron. We can only wonder why he decided to deliver his love bomb speech (i.e. empty rhetoric, cotton wool) at the Olympic cycling velodrome instead of having the guts to come up here at do it in person.

Ironic that a posh Tory should be standing in front of a load of bikes given what another posh Tory (Norman Tebbit) said about getting on your bike back in the day. Guess they never though that one through down in the London bunker.

Removed User 20 Feb 2014
In reply to Chris the Tall:

Willing to stand corrected, but I think the bold Judy took her boys out of the British system and took them to Spain.

Politicians will alwayd try and ride on the back sporting success (Blair was near fanatical about it), whether they get any gain out of it I'm not really sure, didn't stop Gideon getting booed at the Olympics.
 Chris the Tall 20 Feb 2014
In reply to cuthill76:

Cant find Salmonds original comments from 2008, but here is Hoy's reaction

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2620262/Chris-Hoy-pours-scorn-on-Alex-Salmo...

Not trying to be controversial, just making observations
In reply to Al Evans:

> They, and this was confirmed by Lord Coe that a curling rink is being built in Sheffield!

So they shut down Don Valley Stadium and are building an ice rink. Bonkers.
In reply to Al Evans:

Anyone that listens to politicians regarding sport is almost as daft as someone that listens to sports people about politics.

There is a curling rink in Deeside/Chester, get on trycurling.co.uk

Cant see a difference to be honest, dont think it would impact too negatively on Eng/Wales/NI if all the Scots competed separately. Some would have personal choices to make (Murray, E Christie) but cant see anyone in Scotland having this as their deciding factor.

In reply to cuthill76:

> And by the way the only person I know jumping on this bandwagon, and dragging sport into the political gutter, is Davis Cameron.

Don't worry, come the summer Salmond will be getting on the sporting bandwagon using Glasgow to show everyone that Scotland can join a currency union and join the EU and find a cure for cancer.
In reply to Pepper:

> Anyone that listens to politicians regarding sport is almost as daft as someone that listens to sports people about politics.

I'd listen very politely & attentively if Vitali Klitschko started discussing Ukrainian politics with me
In reply to Al Evans:

> What is there to be unhappy about? The top athletes go for the top funded state?

Austria has more than twice as many medals at Soichi than the UK despite only having about 8 million people.

Small nations just need to focus on a smaller number of sports and they can do well.

 Chris the Tall 20 Feb 2014
In reply to Removed User:

Just Andy, for a couple of years in his early teens. They were pretty unimpressed with the coaching Jamie got, so took Andy out of the system.

But I've got a feeling that Leon Smith, Miles McClagan and Brad Gilbert were all funded by the LTA to some extent. (Pretty sure about the latter as his contract was somewhat controversial - it was also supposed to cover other players, but they didn't see much of him).

Politicians and sport is an awkward one, but I think encouraging sporting activity at all levels is good for the health of the nation, so it's inevitable they will claim some of the credit. I'd rather that than a PM whose disregard for sport was all too obvious.
KevinD 20 Feb 2014
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Austria has more than twice as many medals at Soichi than the UK despite only having about 8 million people.


Austria does better at winter sports than the UK? Damn wouldnt have expected that.
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Sure I'd do the same!

Smart lad all told, conversation would be interesting.
 Banned User 77 20 Feb 2014
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
> Austria has more than twice as many medals at Soichi than the UK despite only having about 8 million people.

> Small nations just need to focus on a smaller number of sports and they can do well.

It will have a negative impact on sport. Competition drives standards, look at British cycling, how Hoy had to fight just to make the team.

Its why the fins dominated long distance running..

Its no biggy though so is inconsequential in the debate.
Post edited at 14:32
 BnB 20 Feb 2014
In reply to cuthill76:


> Ironic that a posh Tory should be standing in front of a load of bikes given what another posh Tory (Norman Tebbit) said about getting on your bike back in the day. Guess they never though that one through down in the London bunker.

I'm not a fan of Tebbit as a person, but what an ignorant comment. Norman Tebbit was a low-born politician who went to state school in Edmonton (not far from where the London riots took place). Yes he was bright, but his achievements, and they are considerable, took root in a combination of talent and hard work. Privilege or wealth had absolutely nothing to do with his success. That is why Mrs T leaned heavily on him for counsel. If he had a more winning personality he may well have become prime minister.

It goes without saying that one of his talents was for alienating those of a different political persuasion, but your description of him as a "posh Tory" gives a more accurate picture of your prejudices than it does of the man.

Jim C 20 Feb 2014
In reply to cuthill76:

Anyway tire of saying .this but the referendum ain't about Alec Salmond.

Me too, I have this all the time at work where people personalise this too much.

I don't like Salmond, but that fact will make precisely NO difference to how I vote for or against.It will be sad if people vote either way , based on a personality.

History will only record that ,in 2014 Scotland voted for/against independence.
Not that they did not like/ dislike Cameron/Darling/ Salmond or whomever.

I would hope that Scots take their vote much more seriously than than just being based on a personality contest (of any here today gone tomorrow politicians)








Jim C 20 Feb 2014
In reply to BnB:

> I'm not a fan of Tebbit as a person..... his achievements,.....Privilege or wealth had absolutely nothing to do with his success. That is why Mrs T leaned heavily on him for counsel. ..

And he did not have to marry a millionaire to become wealthy like Thatcher. All done on his own.



 Postmanpat 20 Feb 2014
In reply to Jim C:

> And he did not have to marry a millionaire to become wealthy like Thatcher. All done on his own.

As a matter of interest how many self made millionairesses can you think of born in the UK in the 1920s?
OP Al Evans 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Chris the Tall:

I can understand Hoy's reaction when you understand this

"UK Sport has invested £14m to help Britain's teams at the Winter Olympic and Paralympic Games, and it believes Sochi could mark a breakthrough for British sport.
"In my 20-plus years of involvement in British winter sport, I have never seen an Olympic team better prepared, confident and with such high expectation of themselves than this one," said director of performance Simon Timson."
And that includes supporting the Scots as part of the UK.
 jonnie3430 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Jim C:

> Anyway tire of saying .this but the referendum ain't about Alec Salmond.

I disagree, I think the referendum is all about him. Without him I don't think it would have happened. Do you believe that it would be happening without him? It's his baby and he will do or say anything to get what he wants. That's the worst thing about it, he has sold a dream to impressionable people without the sense to doubt what he is saying. That he has so many supporters makes me sad for the state of Scotland in the 21st century.
 Shani 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Al Evans:
> (In reply to Chris the Tall)
>
> The point is Scotland have no scale of sport funding on anything like the the UK support. may we see a whole raft of scottish sportspeople transferring their alleigance to GB just out of necessity.

Isn't this why Peter Nicol declared for England in squash?

The dire state of Scottish rugby is also cautionary tale: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26257162

 rogerwebb 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Jim C:

>
> I don't like Salmond, but that fact will make precisely NO difference to how I vote for or against.It will be sad if people vote either way , based on a personality.

> I would hope that Scots take their vote much more seriously than than just being based on a personality contest (of any here today gone tomorrow politicians)

>

I would love to be able to completely agree with those sentiments but the composition of the government that negotiates independence is likely to have a massive influence on the future course of this country, and if it gets things wrong we won't get a second chance.

So while I broadly agree with your sentiments we do need to have regard as to who would be representing each side.

I would be happier if any member of the Scottish Government seemed to be prepared to conceive of the possibility that they might be wrong about something.
Jim C 21 Feb 2014
In reply to jonnie3430:

You are going to be asked the question, by all means vote no, but it should be nothing to do with your dislike of a Salmond, or any personality on either side.
How the vote came about , also should have no bearing on how you should vote.

If you can honestly put aside any dislike of individuals or parties, and look at the facts available, and if you then find that you will still vote the same way, than that is all anyone can ask of you.

( that is the advice I gave to my Daughter)







OP Al Evans 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Jim C:

My thought is, why on earth would anybody in Scotland want to devolve from the UK, it just doesn't make sense.
 Banned User 77 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Al Evans:

> The point is Scotland have no scale of sport funding on anything like the the UK support. may we see a whole raft of scottish sportspeople transferring their alleigance to GB just out of necessity.

The chairman of Scottish Athletics has been fairly vocal of his support for independence on facebook.

I was quite surprised tbh, I knew he was a proud Scot but thought he'd be for the union. But he's certainly not someone you'd say was anti-english at all.

For me its just competition, the more competing for x number of spots the more people are driven on. In the GB team we lose 3 of our best 24 hour runners, we also lose 2 of the trail team, in the 100k we lose 1 plus numerous others are in contention. It'll certainly be a blow.
 Bruce Hooker 21 Feb 2014
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> Austria has more than twice as many medals at Soichi than the UK despite only having about 8 million people.

Isn't Austria that small country with a lot of mountains and ski resorts. Are there any small flat countries with similar results to Austria?

> Small nations just need to focus on a smaller number of sports and they can do well.

... if they have mountains and a long tradition of skiing, you appear to be having a logic breakdown here
 coinneach 21 Feb 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

Why is he anti English ?

Can he not just be pro Scottish ?
 Banned User 77 21 Feb 2014
In reply to coinneach:

No I said he's not. Lynx on the other thread was a tad anti-english not pro scot.. I think this guy is just pro scot. very clever guy, very successful, very involved in athletics at all levels. He's one of those guys who you think should have a position like he does, but to often than not ts some suit who isn't out there training and racing. He's in his 50's and still competing.
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> ... if they have mountains and a long tradition of skiing, you appear to be having a logic breakdown here

Why? My point is Scotland could focus on sports that it is good at rather than trying to do everything like the UK. Even with 1/10 the population and 1/10 the funding of the UK Scotland could still be very competitive but in a smaller number of sports.
Post edited at 21:49
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> but in a smaller number of sports.


Name 3

Curling I would give you as it is a team sport as your(our!) team is good. A team sport obviously infers a depth of talent.

Tennis and track cycling you can't have as currently you have individuals which infer that a Scot is good rather than Scots (plural).


 Banned User 77 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

Agree.. its not like there is enough snow to make them good skiers.. without a healthy dose of over the counter vicks medication..

Sorry I never bought that. I dont know the thresholds then but I did the same and the thresholds for conviction are sky high.. almost impossible to get from over the counter medication.
In reply to Graeme Alderson:

> Name 3

Curling, Drinking and Tossing the Caber.

Now all we need to do is create 47 varieties of each niche sport and we are well on our way to emulating Team GB's tactics for Olympic medal success.
 Banned User 77 21 Feb 2014
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
> Curling, Drinking and Tossing the Caber.

> Now all we need to do is create 47 varieties of each niche sport and we are well on our way to emulating Team GB's tactics for Olympic medal success.

I thought Poland dominates the caber?

And Russia the drinking..

But the old blokes wearing skirts thing.. you guys rock
Post edited at 23:46

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