UKC

Lake District Brown Cove Crags Yesterday

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 Jordangask 21 Feb 2014
A few pictures and a bit of a video from my trip yesterday to Brown Cove Crags. Quite saturated snow but deep in the gullies and a bit firmer towards the top of the gullies!

http://cragandsnow.blog.com/2014/02/21/a-day-trip-to-brown-cove-crags/
 blackcat 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask: Good video,looks like you guys had fun and thats the main thing.
 peebles boy 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:

Looks like you had a fun day, but looking at the cornice surmount in the video, looks like you may have had a lucky day too- obviously wasn't on the spot with you, but that bugger looks big and wet and heavy and ready to fall, even looks like fracture line to your right?!
Glad you both enjoyed it tho, well done for getting out in the ming and getting something done!

Cheers,
Gordon.
 Dark-Cloud 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:

Is it my vivid imagination or are you not wearing crampons ?
OP Jordangask 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Dark-Cloud:

No you'd be correct, the snow was very slushy and the crampons were hindering our ability to kick in properly. I hope this was the correct decision?
 CurlyStevo 21 Feb 2014
In reply to peebles boy:
the fact that the cornice was that easy to hack through is a pretty good indicator of (non) stability imo.
 drunken monkey 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:

I wouldnt have bothered with crampons either. The snow looked so soft you'd prob be balling up every 2 or 3 steps.

That cornice looks sopping and ready to drop though.
OP Jordangask 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:

Okay sure, just a question then, ordinarily if you had bad vis and therefore couldn't see the top of the route from the bottom and you got to the top and there was a cornice like this one, what do you do? I suppose if you can walk around it then you'd obviously do that but would you just ab back down the gully?
 Wesley Orvis 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:

lets hope it's in better nick tonight. was the cornice on the vid at the top of Parallel Gullies or Central?
OP Jordangask 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Wesley Orvis:

Right Parallel Gully, It would have been easy enough to walk around mind. In my naivety I thought it would be a good time to try and cut through one... Obviously not but i've learnt my lesson!
 Dark-Cloud 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:

Not my decision, but 2 climbing axes and no crampons does seem odd, each to their own I suppose.......
 Wesley Orvis 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:

Cheers and thanks for the report.
 Wesley Orvis 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Dark-Cloud:

> Not my decision, but 2 climbing axes and no crampons does seem odd, each to their own I suppose.......

I think he stated somewhere it was his first grade 1, why not, whatever floats your boat imo.
 drunken monkey 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:

If the cornice was scary as fook, I'd try and traverse out left or right if possible. Certainly looked feasible in yer video.

Sometimes there is no option but to tunnel through.

 CurlyStevo 21 Feb 2014
In reply to drunken monkey:

I was thinking as i watched the vid, why not just traverse out to the right!

Unstable cornices (and for that matter most stable ones) are not something to battle with for fun!
OP Jordangask 21 Feb 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Thanks for the advice people! Learning something every day
 CurlyStevo 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:
You had fun and didn't get hurt that's the main thing

However when it comes to stuff like cornices, avalanche prone slopes etc I think it's a good idea to honestly appraise what you would and wouldn't do again. Just because you got away with it this time doesn't mean you will next time.

I can think back to at least 4 winter days when for one reason or another I think I made bad choices I got away with.
Post edited at 13:50
 Wesley Orvis 21 Feb 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> (In reply to Jordangask)
> However when it comes to stuff like cornices, avalanche prone slopes etc I think it's a good idea to honestly appraise what you would and wouldn't do again. Just because you got away with it this time doesn't mean you will next time.
>

+1
Post edited at 14:06
 Wesley Orvis 21 Feb 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:
> (In reply to Jordangask) >

I can think back to at least 4 winter days when for one reason or another I think I made bad choices I got away with.

Probably about the same for me, must be the point when the brain says right your luck is running out now.

 peebles boy 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:

> Thanks for the advice people! Learning something every day

Like a friend keeps telling me, every day's a school day, especially in the outdoor classroom!
OP Jordangask 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:

Would anybody be able to give advice or just impart knowledge from experience about the question I asked in my blog?

"From here we went over and soloed Right Parallel Gully I. It felt peculiarly easy and even now i’m not sure if this was due to the conditions or if that is just the nature of grade 1 gullies?"
 blackcat 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask: Hi thats exactly it grade 1 are easy gully plods,nothing techy about them as long as the gully is in decent condition and not loaded with unstable snow.
In reply to Jordangask: Just to add to what others have already said. That cornice looked desperately dangerous. You shouldn't go anywhere near gullies in such bad condition. I wouldn't even want to stand at the bottom of that gully never mind climb it. Thank God you got away with it but looking at the state of that cornice in the video, you were very lucky. You really need to educate yourself in avalanche awareness and the assessment of snow conditions.
 Dark-Cloud 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Wesley Orvis:

Sigh.....yes, thats exactly why i said each to their own........thanks for reiterating my point.
 Wesley Orvis 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Rylstone_Cowboy:

Yes I agree just been up and temps have been a little colder today than Wednesday, the gully was a no go tonight too.
 Wesley Orvis 21 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:

> Would anybody be able to give advice or just impart knowledge from experience about the question I asked in my blog?

The Browncove gullies are pretty easy for grade 1 compared to Nethermost Cove or Red Tarn gullies I have always thought, and with them banked out at the moment, along with the soft snow you did it in (which it would be pretty hard to slide on in any case) you probably had an easy time, I have had a few epics in grade 1 gullies before when I first started winter climbing.
 Billhook 22 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:

You and your mate must have plenty of spare cash, if you can afford to treat your over trousers like that.!

Apart from avalanche hazards the only real difficulty you may encounter on a grade I gully is a cornice.

They do tend to have a propensity to collapse in thawing conditions such as when you were on. Chopping through one and adding your own weight only weakens it a little more. Others might have used a rope there. You might have been very lucky. Or dead.
mrwhite 22 Feb 2014
I'm all for a bit of fun but sliding on your back side along the top of the crag and down a gully is the most sensible idea also.

mrwhite 22 Feb 2014
In reply to mrwhite:

*isn't* doh!
OP Jordangask 22 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:

Okay thanks for all the advice Special thanks to those who took the effort to give it constructively! Many lessons learnt regarding cornices, conditions etc. I've also learnt to remember that once i'm 40 to try and be less patronising to those starting out! Thankfully not all of you were

"You and your mate must have plenty of spare cash, if you can afford to treat your over trousers like that.!" - Not particularly helpful... Especially patronising.
 Downhiller 22 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:

Life's about making mistakes and learning from them mate. And it's also about ignoring the idiot's.

Keep getting out, enjoying it and progressing mate.

Was the comment regarding your over trousers, because you slid down some snow on your arse?
OP Jordangask 22 Feb 2014
In reply to osvdanhenshall:

Thanks a lot pal, and yes it was about sliding down snow, I didn't realise it damaged them but I know now!
 Downhiller 22 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:
haha, slide all you want mate, there your pants! It beat's ruining your knees which we cant buy again!

It's all about fun, even if you're a professional you have to enjoy it

I'd recommend Pete Hill's, "The Mountain Skill's Training Handbook"
Post edited at 17:12
mrwhite 22 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:

Sorry if my comment came across as being off. I should have explained that I had a short slide on my arse down a not so steep slope years ago which got out of control and I s**t myself bouncing off a few rocks after being unable to stop. Also got to consider that people also ascend that broad gully too and there is a possibility of sending debris down the gully. I'm not being captain safety but something g to consider
 Offwidth 22 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:
Best to avoid days like that. I've done them myself but the risk of damp conice collapse for a climb on soggy snow slopes isnt my idea of wise. Wet snow avalanches are hard to predict and set like concrete when they stop, so only a small slide could have horrible consequencies. Best stick to rock ridges on such days. Also take care bum sliding on steep wet snow... damaged trousers are the least of your worries.
Post edited at 18:25
 Billhook 22 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:

You didn't realise sliding down on your nice goretex trousers over rough snow would damage them?? And you wonder why you feel patronised.!!

Even so,I'm sure you learned lots that day.
 Downhiller 22 Feb 2014
In reply to Dave Perry:

Please hold back a little Dave. You seem to be going a little over the top.

They aren't your pants after all. Plus I wouldn't call slushy snow rough.

Jordan has stated he is fairly new to winter climbing, you should be encouraging and helping him, not being childish and pedantic.
 Timo Austino 22 Feb 2014
In reply to Offwidth:

Old age speaks wise old words
 sbc_10 23 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:

Gulley sliding might be a demonstration sport in the next Winter Olympics.
The UK could do with the medals, and you will get loads of UKC admirers.

Advice (free)

1) wear a tight catsuit
2) become female
3) Oh...and if you can, best to escape cornices if possible. They really are the fastest thing down a gulley if provoked.
4) Keep yer chin up.
5) "You cannot create experience. You must undergo it." Albert Camus

 martinph78 23 Feb 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:

>I think it's a good idea to honestly appraise what you would and wouldn't do again. Just because you got away with it this time doesn't mean you will next time.

Agree. I also think it was a case of "determined to do something regardless" (which is understandable).

One thing I have learned as I've done more/had more birthdays, is that it'll be there another day. Backing off shouldn't be seen as failure as it takes a braver/more experienced/wiser person to know when to back off than when to push on. Of course, to gain that experience/wisdom you need to do the stupid stuff first!




 martinph78 23 Feb 2014
In reply to sbc_10:

> 5) "You cannot create experience. You must undergo it." Albert Camus

I like this

grithugger 23 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask: I'm really impressed that you are prepared to put yourself out there like this, especially as there is a minority on UKC who would pretend to never have made mistakes or made bad decisions in their past.it looks to me that you had a good day out, and by putting your vid on here have benefitted from others experience. I personally have done exactly as you and your partner did in my eagerness to get in to winter climbing. If I were to give you the benefit of my experience it would be to pay for some winter training, or even ask on here if some generous soul would be prepared to pass on some of their knowledge and experience. I can't tell you how much, and quickly I've learn from a good instructor, and in the process have had an excellent trip out.

grithugger


P.s as for sliding down hill on your arse I'm sure I've read that Reinhold Messner did the same thing in the Himalayas! haha!

 Downhiller 23 Feb 2014
In reply to Martin1978:

"Agree. I also think it was a case of "determined to do something regardless" (which is understandable). "

I disagree, it's impossible to make this "assumption" by just what you have read on a forum. We have no idea of Jordan's knowledge of winter climbing.

I think it's a lot easier and clearer to say that Jordan didn't realise how dangerous the conditions were. I don't think he would have carried on regardless if he knew the possible danger he was in.

Instead of trying to diagnose other peoples mistakes, it would be a lot more help full if we offered advice and maybe even offered to take him out and show him how to make the correct decisions to keep him safe in the future.

Jordan, keep getting out mate, get some books and maybe even try and hook up with some one with some experience, people tend to be a lot more positive and helpful than they are on forums!
 Downhiller 23 Feb 2014
In reply to grithugger:

Well said grithugger
 Billhook 23 Feb 2014
In reply to osvdanhenshall:

Jordan and his partner took a camera, filmed their adventure and posted it on the main climbing forum. This takes balls and a lot of confidence. You simply don't do stuff like that if you are a pair shrinking violets.

They did what they did and obviously came through without any problems at all.

Therefore I was well aware that my attempts at making a cutting and hopefully humorous comment was hardly likely to put them off doing anything.
 Downhiller 23 Feb 2014
In reply to Dave Perry:

Again Dave, as I have said on this thread before. Give advice, be positive, help the guy out.

And stop worrying about his pants.

Your humour is very different to my own obviously, but I'm not judging you
 martinph78 23 Feb 2014
In reply to xplorer:

> I disagree

Why doesn't that surprise me.
 stuart58 23 Feb 2014
In reply to osvdanhenshall:
Again another winter thread ending in chaos. Conditions and advice is what we want
 Wesley Orvis 23 Feb 2014
In reply to Jordangask:
Went up Harrison Stickle yesterday and did some summer scrambling it certainly felt like spring was in the air (until the afternoon that is) looking around Crinkle Crags and Bowfell were stripped back to the Climbers Traverse, don't look like they will make it through the thaw.

Wetherlam, Old Man and Great Carrs also getting pretty thin now, won't last much more of this.

Up the Dodd on Skiddaw today and the glimpses of Browncove we did get through the clag were it still looked pretty good, with good coverage still, imo the only places which will make it to the weekend when it refreezes are Helvellyn and Great End (beat you up there Saturday morning).
Post edited at 17:14
 Offwidth 24 Feb 2014
In reply to grithugger:

Who said they never made mistakes on UKC?

It is not impresive to be climbing in such conditions under a damp sagging cornice, it's daft and dangerous. Every year climbers do stupid things in desperation for a route ranging from putting themsleves in avalanche danger to trashing soggy turf. They could instead stick to snowed rock ridges in damp conditions or go for a winter mountain walk.
 Wesley Orvis 24 Feb 2014
In reply to Offwidth:

I think he has the point enough people have told him already, can we not as a community try a little harder with beginners, i think as climbers most of us are very impatient with beginners making the same mistakes we all did, but yet eager to criticise and jump on their backs instead of giving advise.

I am not wanting to get into the debates of the past but i do feel on this forum we can be very bitter to beginners, lets face it we all were once. And still are really.
 Offwidth 24 Feb 2014
In reply to Wesley Orvis:

I have no particular issue with the OP if he was unaware of just how dangerous such cornices can be. I do wish more like him would invest in some instruction and attend things like BMC winter skills lectures so they can more safely get the most of of winter days. My concern was with what should have been a wiser head saying this was impressive. Time after time I've seen people climbing routes they should be obviously avoiding because of avalanche risk when there are nearly always obvious safer alternatives, through UKC I read post after post about the same; encouraging lemming behaviour is the last thing we need.
 Wesley Orvis 24 Feb 2014
In reply to Offwidth:

Fair do's you do have a point.
 ERB 24 Feb 2014
In reply to Offwidth:
I climbed over the same cornice on Saturday and it wasn't unstable (a bit like the one on one of your photos) the cornice over Broad gully was fractured but still stable.

Mark
Post edited at 19:41
 stuart58 24 Feb 2014
In reply to ERB:
Just appoint for both sides of the argument. Some one i know died today in france in a snowboarding accident, he fell and hit his head and had a serious head trauma. He was wearing a helemt. Although the two young lads on here dontr have any expereince and they tried like we all do things, and thats how we gain experience ! Good luck to them in the future and may be they might learn from it .
What didnt seem right was only one had a helmet and the immature way they set of down a gully on there backsides , not knowing if anyone was climbing it . They must have some mountain sense ie a little thought of the consequences might help. Just be careful and think about others on the hill and the article about the rescue team in lochnagar having to out to you.
This isnt a slagging of just an opinion of what Ive seen and also what can happen
 Offwidth 24 Feb 2014
In reply to ERB:
You are a braver man than I formally stating stability in wet snow conditions. From the video the snow on the cornice was cruddy with axes pulling through and the cornice easily avoidable. Even if the climbers had roped up and were safe with a belay above or off to the side a collapse could affect the next set of lemmings who might have been in the mist below. Wet retreating snow gullies also tend to have more loose rock on the snow surface and sides so if something does go down them even small collapses can disturb a lot of crap.

Was it the worst practice I've seen? Far from it, but whats the point of taking and making risk for shit snow? There will be cornices elsewhere with safer slopes below if that's what they wanted to experience.

I'd recommend anyone starting out with winter climbing to get proper instruction (its not a cheap activity so cost isn't really an excuse, especialy as guides give great tips about alternatives in mixed conditions which can make trips) and take avalanche risk seriously and learn as much about it as you can and stay open to safer options if conditions prove worse than expected. As someone who ran trips for a student club we had great times, gave employment to some of the best guides in scotland and got great information in return, had fantastic help from the BMC including their winter lecturers, yet despite genrally good practice, at times even we got caught out.
Post edited at 21:26
 ERB 25 Feb 2014
In reply to Offwidth:

There must have been ten or twelve lemmings who climbed the gully on Saturday, they can't all be inexperianced.

Mark
grithugger 25 Feb 2014
In reply to Offwidth:
What can i say Offwidth you're my hero.
Haha!
 Offwidth 25 Feb 2014
In reply to ERB:
My experience of being near easy gullies in the lakes on damp winter days is that lemmings are the most common animal around. Its much more to do with desperation than experience, albeit the experienced wet snow climber is a fun concept which would typify the british bumbly search for a snow patch. The genuinely inexperienced are the only ones with a good excuse, which is back where I started... we have all been there and good instruction helps the choice of better alternatives, even if its a walk.
Post edited at 21:44
 ERB 26 Feb 2014
In reply to Offwidth:

So let me get this right you think Lake district gully climbers are Lemmings and in your opinion (on another thread) over tight climbing shoes give no real benefit and trash climbers feet, are you working up to some April 1st prank or have we all been missled for the last thirty years.

Mark
 Offwidth 26 Feb 2014
In reply to ERB:

Experienced wet winter lakes gully climbers are misled?

On the shoe front you dont need to trust my opinio, just ask a podiatrist.
 stuart58 26 Feb 2014
In reply to Offwidth: this thread has become a joke a d should be shut down


 Wesley Orvis 27 Feb 2014
In reply to stuart58:
> (In reply to Offwidth) this thread has become a joke a d should be shut down

Come on mate why should any thread with any sort of debate on be shut down? Are you for real or what?

 stuart58 27 Feb 2014
In reply to Wesley Orvis:
Im real this thread isn't going any where from the oringial start
grithugger 27 Feb 2014
In reply to stuart58:Yeah Offwidth you're a meenie weenie!

 Offwidth 28 Feb 2014
In reply to grithugger:

Only to experienced wet grade I climbers who deserve everything coming. OP was in my view unwise but very excusable as I said before.

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