UKC

Looks like a great route, with the risk of angering the beta police how does the top section feel? Is it fairly straightforward?

Would be my first proper e3 and I was hoping to do it ground up, just don't want to have an epic if I find the top to be nails!

In reply to alooker:

Top is fine, good luck.
jon

In reply to alooker:

The top is not nails. The whole route is essentially a boulder problem with a dodgy landing. There is one stiff pull on positive edges at about half height, but I don't remember anything difficult after that.

In reply to alooker:

The top is easier and has gear. It's the first half of the route that is the issue.

In reply to alooker:

It only gets E3 without pads & mats

;~))

the top isn't too bad, just don't fall off!

In reply to alooker:

Top section is fine, the holds are there, just keep it together Well worth taking a rope and gear though, I felt a lot better with a couple of wires in!

Bottom half is the issue, its solid 6a to pull off the ledge if you're a midget like me, but after that the holds are all there. Good luck!

In reply to alooker:

I took a rope and rack just in Case as I wasn't sure what was up there but in retrospect the top half is about severe.
It often gets a reputation for being soft but I personally found it quite tough, I was probably just doing it wrong though.
Good luck it's a nice route.

In reply to alooker:

I'll be on my own so won't have rack/ropes. Unless anyone is around tomorrow?!

In reply to deacondeacon:

I found it hard too and I'm tall enough to (just) reach the crimps from the ledge.

TBH I thought it was crap and its popularity only comes from the perception that it's a soft touch. I did Great Slab the same day which is streets ahead in terms of quality.

In reply to alooker:

Frpggatt on a dry Saturday? You'll have no bother getting a belay.

In reply to alooker:

Crimpy boulder problem low down with a nasty landing, that's the E3 bit done. Spotters would help

In reply to alooker:

Top is about 4c/5a. I got very scared on the traverse back right to finish but I was so shocked to have even got past the crux.

In reply to deacondeacon:

True!

In reply to Carless:
Man that slab is slightly overhanging. E9 surely.

In reply to alooker:
Proper E3 my arse. Lots of harder E2s out there. Its an E3 version of three pebble slab with much less justification for being in the higher band. The definitive guidebook view is right at the bottom of E2 but in reality if your belayer can deal with an old school catch from a slip on a slab the hardest moves at the start are safe and its only a little airy as you move up and left into the easier terrain (standard E2 5b stuff). When I started climbing and was falling off HVS two mates and I did the start solo (no mats then) with the other two spotting, then we reversed it.... we had no idea the top was so easy as we trusted grades worked. There is also marginal gear but it makes the start harder. E1 with a few mats and good spotting. It is a good bit tougher for the short but so are many routes. Of course Downhill Racer next door is just the opposite, a real tough nut, and neither routes need any more top-ropes unless people are serious with a headpoint.

In reply to FreshSlate:

Whehey! I onsight soloed E9 25 years ago!
Made my weekend that

In reply to Pagan:

Agreed.

In reply to alooker: it's a nice boulder problem with a mat and spotters.... not a good 'route'.

In reply to spidermonkey09:


The clue's in the name; I couldn't do this even on a toprope the one time I tried. The reach on Acid Drop is easy by comparison.

In reply to alooker:


I on sight soloed it in the early 80's and found it soft after a reasonable 1st half. Behind me JB Tribout took two goes to do the crux.... Made my day

In reply to Offwidth:


There's a poster who can reach the hold!

In reply to Offwidth:

>Proper E3 my arse.

Agreed; anyone who thinks this is E3 is in for a major shock when they try Great Slab.

In reply to Dave G; not sure the clue is in the name - I believe it was named for the wooden peg originally employed in some hole as aid, which was thought to resemble LJS's wooden leg. That's what Nik Jennings told me, anyway. Though isn't there a Silver Crack nearby? Maybe it was just a riff on that.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Really depends on your height. I can't reach the crimps on LJS and despite a couple of serious efforts over the years I haven't done it. Walked up great slab with no problems whatsoever.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Really? I found Great Slab much easier - I have a weakness where ankle-trashing landings are concerned though.

Agree that it's never 'proper' E3 though. Hands up who thinks it's the same grade as Western Front...

In reply to alooker:



The top is brilliant - it is like the best HS ever as it is not polished to death.

In reply to alooker:

Probably 6a for the short, and 5c for the tall, and only a couple of moves at that and the top half is about HS, E2 tops, not E3.

However, am I right thinking back in the days of EB's held together with gaffa tape and polar pants (yes, mine are in an old sac in the loft somewhere), it being graded HVS 5b - possibly in Bancrofts Bumper Book of Bollocks?

In reply to alooker:

Thanks everyone.

Not really bothered about a grade debate, sorry if it seemed like it.

I think it's 14m in the guidebook. I wouldn't say that was a boulder problem, no matter where the crux is.

In reply to alooker:



The E3 bit is and that's just because of the shit landing.

In reply to Goucho:

Agree totally. Am short (5' 6") so 6a to the crimps. Three guys, all over six feet, did it straight after. They could all reach through to (relatively) good holds. We all accepted it was a reach thing and my experience had been a little different to theirs'.

Don't remember any problems with the top (but it's over 30 years ago, so dodgy memories). Grading, back then? Yeah, 'HVS 5b' sounds about right (from Steve of the Sardonic Humour, bless him).

Mick

In reply to Pagan:



IMO Western Front is a soft E3 - just like LJS - so there you go!


Chris

In reply to alooker:

I'm 6' tall and I thought it was tough 5c or 6a off the ground. After that, a 5b hang on an edge where you don't want to fall off, then VS path I suppose. But I did it with a pad and rope, so what do I know?

In reply to alooker:

If you get to the top half OK it's job done.

In reply to alooker:

I'm about average height (5'10) and I could just reach the hold on the very tips of my toes to make the start 5c (would have reached easily off a pad

I think E3 is a fair enough grade to account for the bad landing, but like others have said I'm not sure it feels like 'proper' E3, in the way that routes that are basically a scary boulder problem, then easy, generally don't (IMO).

In reply to alooker:

Only done it with a pad on the bad landing, felt like V2 at the bottom as i struggled to reach the edges as I'm not tall, then V0- all the way to the top.

In reply to Goucho:

it being graded HVS 5b - possibly in Bancrofts Bumper Book of Bollocks?

It's not in Bancrofts 'Recent Developments' guide.

In reply to Andy Moles:
Come on, solid E3 for a boulder problem start above a nasty plinth? Cant belayers catch a slide on routes like this anymore? You can even coil the rope across the gap to help cut the risk.

As for grades it was first listed as XS- in the definitives I dont have all the supplements but it was unled in Wilson's recent develoments in 1961.

In reply to Al Evans:



It is, Al - it's cunningly hidden in the addendum section at the back (not the "extra addendum" after that!); HVS, no technical grade.

In reply to Ian Parsons:
Thanks I'd missed that. It's p.84 and reported as having been chiselled like DR next door (at XS 5c)

In reply to Offwidth:


The obvious scar is the peg-hole that your fingers go in. Can you recall whether there's anything else? My memory's too hazy.

In reply to Ian Parsons:

I wasn't climbing early enough to tell. You used to be able to get a tricam in that hole but it made things even scarier above. I do feel old moaning about this Froggatt overgrade for 23 years. Here are a few other routes to go alongside LJS's E3 in Derwent Gritstone. Pinnacle Arete at HVS, Hibernation at E2, Strapiombo HVS, Oss Nob E1, Parallel Piped HVS, Gentlefish E2, Epithany E4, Cave Crack E1, Nightshade HVS.

In reply to Ian Parsons:


How many addenda did he have? Was there no end to the bullshit? (Sorry, Steve!)



Caveat flamin' emptor.


Mick

P.S. Ian, you weren't one of the 'class of '74' at Tremadog with Boris, were you?

In reply to Mick Ward:



Hi Mick.

I certainly used to climb with Boris, frequently (due to the club hut) at Tremadog; but being unaware of a "class of '74" I probably wasn't in it! Were there nineteen hundred and seventy-three other members, or did the title refer to the year?

In reply to Ian Parsons:

The year - Boris, Dave Humphreys, Roger Whitehead, me, uncle Tom Cobleigh, his three legged dancing dog, etc, etc. I'm sure there was a guy called Ian there as well. ('Monkey Ian'??)

We all lived in the barn, which Jerry later claimed was a right doss-house. But I liked it. Simple tastes!

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

Yet look of those other grades at the time (there were other crazy easy ones as well) and the ' all over the shop' grades of Paul Nunn. Steve gets legendary flack for the harshness of the grading in his recent developments but the grading had its own internal consitency. If only I'd known LJS was easier for me as a ground up than quite a few Froggatt definitive HVS climbs at the time.

In reply to Mick Ward:

Ha! I recall the residency but wasn't one of the residents. Ian Jones, possibly?

In reply to Offwidth:

Yes I agree there was internal consistency - so he got that right! But I quite like giving him flack and, after nearly 40 years, I'm not going to stop now. I gather it's called growing old disgracefully.

F*ck me, there were a few horrors in PN's little bumper fun book. Some real traps for the unwary. And then Quietus at 6a. But I'm not bothered by over-grading and not even that bothered by under-grading hard stuff. It's the under-grading of easy stuff (happened in the Mournes, big time, in the '70s, I fought like hell against it) that bothers me. 'Cos that's where folk can come to harm. With PN, I think it was just familiarity and generally being handy on grit. I didn't really know him but he always seemed a decent guy.

You seem pretty good on slabs (c.f. your remarks on another threat re Sex Dwarves). Killer footwork? You might consider capitalising on slab expertise. Just a thought.

Mick

In reply to Ian Parsons:

Ian Jones were nowt but a lad then, barely out o' nappies. It was eight years on before my good lady and his good lady asked me, as a favour you understand, to take him climbing. And then what happened? The bastard burned me off!

Justice? There's no justice in this flamin' world!

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:



Indeed; terrible behaviour. It can, though, provide some measure of preparation for the increasingly undignified experience of attending a modern bouldering facility. There was a time when the various "junior ranks" - whose aerial activities made ones own attempts appear particularly decrepit - would at least have had the good manners to have reached their teenage years; this is demonstrably no longer the case.

In reply to Ian Parsons:


So it is, along with Linden and one or two of mine I see

In reply to Offwidth:

I didn't say it was 'solid E3', I think you misread my post.

However, I couldn't care an awful lot less, I was only chipping in an opinion for the benefit of the OP.

In reply to Offwidth:

As with many of these gritstone routes they're so much easier if you're told that it's piss once you've got past the boulder problem start. When I first climbed it, it felt like hard climbing, with potentially harder moves until I would get to the flake with gear, and fair at E3.
When I went back and repeated it solo, knowing what to expect it did feel trivial compared to before and Easyish E2.
On sighting a route can often give you a different perspective on things, and without actually On sighting it yourself (which is what it's graded for) you'll never know.

In reply to alooker:
Top is straightforward, can't remember any gear more of a solo? At least the block at the bottom is now filled in behind so you won't slide down the back of it!
Don't think it is E3 it was HVS back in the day.

In reply to Ian Parsons:

Chouinard termed bouldering 'instant suffering'. He might have termed modern bouldering facilities 'instant humiliation'. Mind you, at the one in Liverpool (The Climbing Hangar?), when they perused the bit on the form that said when you'd started, their eyes fairly popped. The dinosaur has landed! They were so gobsmacked they let me in for free. Bless 'em.

The good Mr Jones... and his appallingly slick footwork. ("Only two Brits with good footwork - John Dunne and Ian Jones," Stevie Haston to yours truly.) He pretty much went straight through the ranks, burning all off until he ended up with Jerry - back then, the best climber in the world. Not bad for someone who claimed he could only do HVS 5a. (Pause for hollow laughter.)

Did he ever do LJS? Froggatt bored him to tears but he surely must have done it at some time. With that killer footwork, he'd have found it about Diff. Although reaching the crimps would have required two body spans of him. He used to claim proudly that he was too short to be a policewoman. (Yes, I know, the mind boggles!)

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

Ok. I actually broke my wrist on this route in 1978. Bitterly cold November day, tried to reverse down, jumped and made a bollocks of it. Tom Jones nearly pissed himself laughing as I did a spectacular belly flop.

So not HVS but clearly height dependent with a nasty landing, padded out or not.

Not getting the comparison with Western Front, although I agree the grade of the latter is a bit off. E2 6a in my opinion as it has a horrible flared hand jam with bomber gear. Did that with John Kirk who was always a million times more talented.
Anyway thanks for the compliments Mick. Shame I lack focus.

That's enough about LJS. let's move onto The Gully Joke........

In reply to Ian Jones:

Eek, sounds painful. But be fair mate, it was years before you realised you were so good.

Dave Lawson, who was far better than me, fell off it the week before. (So why on earth did I go on it? Wasn't competitiveness, that's for sure. Idiocy??) Anyway, when Dave went to the doc to get a sick note, the guy said, "Where does it hurt?" Dave said, "Everywhere!"

Agree re John, he was going well, before he had his back injury. Did The Gully Joke with Paul, think it was given HVS, we thought about E2, 5c. Just had a peek at the database, seems to be E3 now.

Happy days!

Mick

In reply to Ian Jones:

I fell off LJS once, in about 1984. I slithered down and landed on the point of the boulder and just balanced there and walked away. I guess I was lucky, although at the time I assumed it was skill.

jcm

In reply to Mick Ward:

Bunions have put paid to my hard slab climbing, still Ok up to 5c though. Sex Dwarves was another boulder problem in a route and although it took me quite a few goes I was chuffed to get it. I then asked the guy who told me to give a go 'what do I do now?'. He said jump off sideways to the ledge but I'd never done anything like that from pure smears. He said the alternative was carry on or traverse right if you want. I was better at moving on a steep diagonal than a straight traverse so my version wasnt the true route as I missed the last couple of metres.

I seconded Gully Joke much later when working on the Froggatt guide and much more experienced and it felt really insecure, way above anything I might contemplate on lead. My partner was leading well into the extreme band and he was very careful. On the subject of hard for those grades he also decked from the top of Saddy.

In reply to Offwidth:


Eek once more! Got sent up Saddy (Chris 'the nose' (courtesy of Dirty Alex) Addy) with a droll, "Suppose you'll want to start on something easy (i.e. E1)?" and a dismissive curl of the lip. Dodgy gradings! How did we survive 'em?

Sorry about your bunions. Honestly I'd give yourself Sex Dwarves.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ward:

>Honestly I'd give yourself Sex Dwarves.


Now there's something you don't hear every day.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I thought that might tickle someone's fancy!

Mick

In reply to alooker:

I had a bit of a wobble when i did this route as my fingers popped on the crux and i just about recovered it. This left me shaking a bit through the rest of the route but it eases with each move and the top is very straight forward. I soloed it and had no rope or gear. Its a great route and i love walking under it years later. Downhill Racer is another story...