/ Shetland or Orkney Independence

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Thickhead - on 01 Mar 2014
So if either or both of these groups decide they want independence or remain part of the UK rather than be part of an independent Scotland, when would they get to decide on this?

Would they have to be part of an independent Scotland for an intermediate period?

And assuming these groups get the choice to leave Scotland, where would the line be drawn on other areas of Scotland wanting to break apart from the rest? E.g Outer Hebrides, or Skye, or Aberdeenshire, or some block of flats in inner city Glasgow?
abseil on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Thickhead:

> ...would the line be drawn on other areas of Scotland wanting to break apart from the rest?...

That reminds me of what P.J. O'Rourke wrote about states breaking away, "Georgia is, of course, claiming independence from the Soviet Union... Something called South Ossetia is trying to secede from Georgia. I'll bet South Ossetia starts having trouble with South-Central Ossetia soon..."
Al Evans on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Thickhead:

When we were on Orkney in 1969 there was a quite vociferous Orkney independence movement, though they seemed a bit mixed in their aims, some wanted total independence and others wanted to cede to Denmark (I think on the grounds that Copenhagen was nearer than London). When I returned to the Islands in 1997 there was no sign of it.
Thickhead - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Al Evans:

I've heard of the Danish link before. They have quite a strong relationship with the Faroes I believe too.

I've only been once, in 2004, but have family on Orkney and they say there has been much more debate recently, for obvious reasons.

Quite what way they would go in a referendum I don't know, but the principal of my question remains the same - where would the line be drawn in offering a referendum?
Cuthbert on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Thickhead:

You don't draw a line. If people want to vote on independence then let them. Trying to resist it is all very dying-imperial-state stuff.
Douglas Griffin - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Al Evans:

> When we were on Orkney in 1969 there was a quite vociferous Orkney independence movement, though they seemed a bit mixed in their aims, some wanted total independence and others wanted to cede to Denmark (I think on the grounds that Copenhagen was nearer than London).

Those would be pretty strange grounds - Copenhagen is further from Orkney than London is.
Al Evans on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Douglas Griffin:

Ok, maybe it was The Faroes then.
Jim C - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Thickhead:


A one man referendum would make it rather one sided.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_State_of_Forvik

The micronation of Forvik was created in June 2008 by the island's disputed owner, sole occasional occupant, and Cunningsburgh resident, Stuart Hill when he unilaterally declared Forvik to be a British Crown Dependency. Although Hill asserts the matter is for the Monarch to decide, a spokesperson for the United Kingdom Ministry of Justice stated that under the Constitution of the United Kingdom, Forvik is part of the Shetland Islands and as such is subject to United Kingdom legislation. The Shetland Islands Council Convenor Sandy Cluness has not dismissed Hill's actions out of hand and said official bodies would wait and see how it progressed.
Hill has instituted various forms of citizenship - Shetland residents may apply for one square metre plots of land with voting rights, whilst others may apply for honorary citizenship on the promise of a share of future income. Both classes of citizenship are offered on the payment of an annual tax.
Although Hill admits that the amount of seabed he is claiming is small, he is inviting well established companies to negotiate for oil exploration rights.
Troy Tempest - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Jim C:

I've just had a read of the official Forvik website. Mr Hill seems to be quite the character.

www.forvik.com
IainRUK - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Thickhead:

TBH I think its more likely they'd vote to remain part of the UK. they were the only areas in the Highlands and Islands to vote against Scottish devolution back in the 70's.
toad - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

When I had friends there, I got the impression that they felt quite ambivalent about being part of Scotland. One guy from Unst explained that many of the Shetland absentee landlords were Scottish. I don't know how true this is (At the time I was very,very drunk)
IainRUK - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to toad:

Drunk in Shetland? :-)

Yeah I found the same, they spoke about independence, but I got the feeling they just didn't want interference yet not independence. So they fairly much managed their own fisheries etc..

But they are a huge exporter and that was there main issue.
Jim C - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Troy Tempest:

> I've just had a read of the official Forvik website. Mr Hill seems to be quite the character.

> www.forvik.com

I think I read that he was English.

That would be interesting if the first person to break away from The UK was English ;)
IainRUK - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Jim C:

In Wales we had a junior fell race through a dangerous quarry, the organiser put signs out directing the kids, but they were just in english, against the bilingual policy, a local went out removing the signs so kids were lost in cloud in a very dangerous area. They were alll found and the police were involved. It turned out it was an english guy who had moved to the area..
Jim C - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to toad:

> When I had friends there, I got the impression that they felt quite ambivalent about being part of Scotland.

I was there year past September, and travelled all over, spoke to a woman who said she was related to a council member and she seemed to think that the first step would be for Shetlands to become a Crown Dependancy . Others, as mentioned were less interested, but there are a lot of 'Soothmooths' there just there for the oil jobs, not always easy to talk to the native Shetlanders
Jim C - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Al Evans:
> When we were on Orkney in 1969 there was a quite vociferous Orkney independence movement, though they seemed a bit mixed in their aims, some wanted total independence and others wanted to cede to Denmark

I spent a few rainy days in the Shetland Museum , there are Danish connections , but I think that Norway is more likely for the Shetlanders, not sure about Orkney.

"Shetland's connection with Norway has proven to be enduring. When Norway became independent again in 1906 the Shetland authorities sent a letter to King Haakon VII in which they stated: "Today no 'foreign' flag is more familiar or more welcome in our voes and havens than that of Norway, and Shetlanders continue to look upon Norway as their mother-land, and recall with pride and affection the time when their forefathers were under the rule of the Kings of Norway."[24]"
Post edited at 15:04
Thickhead - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

> TBH I think its more likely they'd vote to remain part of the UK.


That's what my impression is from what I've heard from family.

Would they have to be part of on independent Scotland until voted otherwise?

Seems a bit unfair.
Thickhead - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

> In Wales ... It turned out it was an english guy who had moved to the area..



So often the case! It's like in New Zealand the people most bothered about changing the flag are immigrants from the UK...


Thickhead - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Saor Alba:

> You don't draw a line. If people want to vote on independence then let them. Trying to resist it is all very dying-imperial-state stuff.


So you would have independent cities within Scotland, e.g Aberdeen, or Glasgow? Then why not towns or villages, then housing estates, then independent farms.

The line would have to be drawn somewhere, surely.
Andy Long - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

> TBH I think its more likely they'd vote to remain part of the UK. they were the only areas in the Highlands and Islands to vote against Scottish devolution back in the 70's.

It's the anti-metropolitan thing. Scotland (and much of Britain) feels short-changed by London. Highland Scotland feels short-changed by the Central Belt. Rural Shetland feels short-changed by Lerwick.

Twas ever thus.

Douglas Griffin - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Thickhead:

It's odd how the subject of independence for the Northern Isles (separately? together?) only seems to comes up in the context of Scottish Independence. If it's a good idea then it's presumably at least worth considering right now? You'd almost be forgiven for thinking that this question isn't being raised out of concern for the people of Orkney & Shetland, but rather as another argument with which to raise doubt in people's minds come polling day in September.

Like some people on this thread I've been to both sets of islands many times and I'll be going back to both this year. I don't claim that having been there gives me any particular insight into local opinion, though it's clear that most locaI people there have a very strong sense of their Shetland or Orkney identity. I did for many years commute with a native Shetlander and he painted a less-than-rosy picture of the islands' finances. Not that that should necessarily matter.

There have been meetings (most recently in Lerwick) about increased autonomy within the current set-up for the Northern and Western Isles Councils. In the event of a Yes vote in September, they may be happy with that - they may not. But I've yet to hear of any serious proposals for a split from Scotland, either for complete independence or for the Northern Isles to remain with the UK.
Douglas Griffin - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Andy Long:

> Highland Scotland feels short-changed by the Central Belt.

A regular complaint here in Aberdeenshire too!

lynx3555 - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Thickhead: if you look at the history of the Viking settlement of Shetland you start to see just how Nasty Norway and Shetlands relationship actually was....

"The Sagas tell us that the first Vikings left Norway and settled Shetland because they resented the taxes that their king – Haraldr Hárfagri or “Fairhair” – was levying on them. Unst appears to have been their first landfall in Shetland and the first island that they settled in the group."

"Orkney and Shetland initially formed one earldom – the Earldom of Orkney. While all had to obey Norwegian laws and pay tax to Norway, the earls had a great deal of power and autonomy. This all came to an end in 1194 when, following another unsuccessful plot to overthrow the Norwegian king, Shetland was taken from the earldom as punishment and ruled directly from Norway until it became part of Scotland."

http://www.saxavord.com/shetland-archaeology.php
IainRUK - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to lynx3555:

Do we really want to go into past history and nastiness?

I dont think many countries, even the great Scotland, have a great history... Glencoe for one?

But the Shetlanders clearly associate closely with Norway, what's their main festival?
IainRUK - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Douglas Griffin:

There was talk a while back of remaining in the UK.. but generally I agree, the view I got was serious independence wasn't wanted, but greater autonomy was.

They want to have closer control over local issues leaving immigration et al to others but maybe even take more from the oil..
Lamb - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Thickhead:

The same question could be asked for England itself, do you really believe the North is happy with the status quo? I know plenty of Northerners who want change.
Thickhead - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Lamb:

> The same question could be asked for England itself, do you really believe the North is happy with the status quo? I know plenty of Northerners who want change.


Change to what?

The North East were given a referendum under Labour for their own Assembly, which they strongly voted against?
Thickhead - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Douglas Griffin:

> It's odd how the subject of independence for the Northern Isles (separately? together?) only seems to comes up in the context of Scottish Independence.


There is no coincidence there.

From what I have heard, at least on Orkney, locals would rather be part of the UK than an independent Scotland.
Douglas Griffin - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Thickhead:

Oh well, that's conclusive then!
Thickhead - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Douglas Griffin:

That's not particularly fair, I haven't said it was conclusive. I, like you, have just mentioned my personal experience.

What I am asking is should they be given a choice, and if so, who else should be?

They may well back being part of an independent Scotland for all I know.
ads.ukclimbing.com
Douglas Griffin - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Thickhead:

Apologies for the sarcasm.

I think there's possibly a clearer case for Orkney and Shetland than there is for other parts of Scotland (or the UK). Other than that, I don't know.
Thickhead - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Douglas Griffin:

> Apologies for the sarcasm.

> I think there's possibly a clearer case for Orkney and Shetland than there is for other parts of Scotland (or the UK). Other than that, I don't know.


No worries.

Agreed probably clearer than other parts of Scotland but more so than Wales or Cornwall?

These were historically "independent" too.
Douglas Griffin - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Thickhead:

I was excluding Wales on the basis that it already has a devolved Assembly.

Can't really comment on Cornwall - have no knowledge of the situation there. I should really shut up now. :-)
Fat Bumbly2 - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Thickhead:

"From what I have heard, at least on Orkney, locals would rather be part of the UK than an independent Scotland"

I have heard that all over Scotland..
Lamb - on 01 Mar 2014
In reply to Thickhead:

The direction their whole country (England) is heading in. London is essentially its own state and doesn't represent the rest of the UK beyond the M4 corridor.
Timmd on 02 Mar 2014
In reply to Lamb:

> The direction their whole country (England) is heading in. London is essentially its own state and doesn't represent the rest of the UK beyond the M4 corridor.

In Sheffield you don't get the impression people feel closely linked to London.
IainRUK - on 02 Mar 2014
In reply to Douglas Griffin:

I'm not sure cornwall is that serious, or a vocal minority..

I think Wales want devolution, but not independence. I just cannot see how it can work. Even devolution has to be careful. Scotland/England border is actually pretty sparse.. Wales/England border is heavily populated, almost all through, I just cant see how we can act alone.
lynx3555 - on 02 Mar 2014
In reply to IainRUK:
Glencoe wasn't a good example...the man responsible for that atrocity was one of the Unionist campaigners back in the day...he advised King Billy to do it.
"John Dalrymple the Master of Stair (born 1648 – 8 January 1707) was a Scottish noble who played a crucial role in the 1707 Treaty of Union between the Kingdom of Scotland and the Kingdom of England, that created the Kingdom of Great Britain."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Dalrymple,_1st_Earl_of_Stair

Al Evans on 02 Mar 2014
In reply to lynx3555:

The Isle of Man is not part of the UK and prints its own money (the £1 notes were plastic when I was last there) but still keeps the pound.Bit about its history here
" In 1266, the island became part of Scotland, as formalised by the Treaty of Perth. After a period of alternating rule by the kings of Scotland and England, the island came under the feudal lordship of the English Crown in 1399. The lordship revested into the British Crown in 1765, but the island never became part of the kingdom of Great Britain or its successor the United Kingdom, retaining its status as an internally self-governing Crown dependency."
How about that for Scotland?
Al Evans on 02 Mar 2014
In reply to lynx3555:

More on the Isle of Man here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man
IainRUK - on 02 Mar 2014
In reply to lynx3555:

wow... so a Scot who is a unionist isnt a proper Scot.. so that was why he was a nasty bastard...
lynx3555 - on 02 Mar 2014
In reply to IainRUK: Your words not mine.....

Thickhead - on 03 Mar 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

> I'm not sure cornwall is that serious, or a vocal minority..


I would guess that too. But they probably have as much a historical claim as Orkney or Shetland.

Maybe Northern Ireland would be the obvious example I missed.

> I think Wales want devolution, but not independence. I just cannot see how it can work. Even devolution has to be careful. Scotland/England border is actually pretty sparse.. Wales/England border is heavily populated, almost all through, I just cant see how we can act alone.

I don't know. There's plenty of Nationalists about. Generally speaking not as nice a bunch as the Scottish crowd from experience and obsessed with Welsh language.

I just think they are a lot further away from a sensible independence debate than Scotland. But if Scotland does vote in favour, momentum could certainly change.
Thickhead - on 03 Mar 2014
In reply to Al Evans:

They were plastic when I was there in 2011...

But more to the point it is the pound, but not actually legal tender in the UK, not like the Scottish notes, which are (obviously).

However, banks are generally willing to change free of charge, hence some vendors may accept Isle of Man currency (or channel island, Falkland Island etc).
stroppygob - on 03 Mar 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

> I'm not sure cornwall is that serious, or a vocal minority..

Oh no?

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=580240
Jim C - on 03 Mar 2014
In reply to Thickhead:

> I would guess that too. But they probably have as much a historical claim as Orkney or Shetland.

You have to be recognised as a Nation of people rather than a group of people from within .
It is difficult for example to see how a referendum for the Falklands can have any validity. They are British, not a Nation within.

If Cornwall have a better claim, then by all means they should have their day at the polls.
Thickhead - on 03 Mar 2014
In reply to Jim C:

> You have to be recognised as a Nation of people rather than a group of people from within .

> It is difficult for example to see how a referendum for the Falklands can have any validity. They are British, not a Nation within.

All be it very distant (Falklands) in some cases maybe 9 generations?

I guess it depends on when you decide a nation was born in a historical context to when it was settled.

For example, if Otago wanted to be independent of New Zealand by your reasoning it would not have a right to do so because it was only settled in the 1860s (by British/Scottish)?



> If Cornwall have a better claim, then by all means they should have their day at the polls.


So far then we have an independent referendum for Scotland, Orkney, Shetland, Northern Ireland, Wales and Cornwall.

Any others? ;-)
Al Evans on 03 Mar 2014
In reply to Thickhead:

Wessex, Mercia and East Anglia.
Ashley - on 03 Mar 2014
In reply to Thickhead:


> But more to the point it is the pound, but not actually legal tender in the UK, not like the Scottish notes, which are (obviously).

Scottish notes are not legal tender in England (or Scotland for that matter.)

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/Pages/about/faqs.aspx#16
http://www.scotbanks.org.uk/legal_position.php
Bruce Hooker - on 03 Mar 2014
In reply to Timmd:

> In Sheffield you don't get the impression people feel closely linked to London.

Why would they be? They live in the same country, speak the same language but that's all, why should they feel "closely linked"? I, for example, do not feel closely linked to Salford, should I?
Bruce Hooker - on 03 Mar 2014
In reply to Thickhead:

> Maybe Northern Ireland would be the obvious example I missed.

Logically it should be reunited with Eire, the problem being the majority there who have always voted against it. That's why the island was portioned at independence.
Bruce Hooker - on 03 Mar 2014
In reply to Jim C:

> You have to be recognised as a Nation of people

Recognised by who?
Thickhead - on 03 Mar 2014
In reply to Ashley:

Well there you go...

I am corrected.
Jim C - on 03 Mar 2014
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
Trust you to ask that Bruce, I will now need to find that source again.

I think it was on a page relating to the Falklands .

But I will trawl the net and find it, since it is you.
Post edited at 18:19
Jim C - on 03 Mar 2014
In reply to Al Evans:
"There is a nice wee island called Kerrera 200 metres off Oban , that was once ruled by Norway, maybe the 34 people there will go for it .

"in 1249 King Alexander lI of Scotland mustered his mighty fleet to start the invasion to reclaim the Hebrides including Kerrera which were then under the rule of Norway.

Kerrera remained under Norway's rule for sometime and later in 1263 Horseshoe Bay was to house a Norse fleet of one hundred and twenty longship galleys. "

http://www.kerrera-ferry.co.uk/walking-kerrera.html
Post edited at 18:35
Thickhead - on 03 Mar 2014

So we now have Wessex, East Anglia, Mercia and Kerrera to add to the ever growing list.

Any more?!



Roberttaylor - on 03 Mar 2014
Timmd on 03 Mar 2014
In reply to Bruce Hooker:
> Why would they be? They live in the same country, speak the same language but that's all, why should they feel "closely linked"? I, for example, do not feel closely linked to Salford, should I?

Given that decisions which affect our lives are made in London/Westminster, the apparent disconnect is less than helpful, both for political engagement and possibly good decisions being made as well. Probably more the former, though. There's a strong sense that London is something of a different world.
Post edited at 21:50
Thickhead - on 03 Mar 2014
In reply to Timmd:

Isn't that a reason why some countries opt to have a separate political capital to the financial capital?

If we are downgrading London's status though, best make sure the new capital is not in Scotland, Wales, Cornwall, Northern Ireland, Wessex, Mercia or East Anglia (incase they vote for independence).

Bruce Hooker - on 03 Mar 2014
In reply to Timmd:

> Given that decisions which affect our lives are made in London/Westminster.

Parliament is physically in London but the contact with the population of London is minimal, it could just as well be in Coventry as far as the average Londoner is concerned. The same can't be said of the City of London, financial and insurance markets etc. I bet most Londoners have never even visited the Houses of Parliament, I certainly haven't... we don't have the same accent either!
stroppygob - on 04 Mar 2014
In reply to IainRUK:
> (In reply to Douglas Griffin)
>
> I'm not sure cornwall is that serious, or a vocal minority..



> A VOTE at the Liberal Democrats’ spring conference could make a bid for Cornish devolution party policy.

> Cornwall Councillor Alex Folkes, deputy leader of the Lib-Dem group, said the proposal was for “asymmetric devolution” where different regions could assume different powers from government.

> “The key here is what is right for each area and if they want to go at different paces they can,” Cllr Folkes said. “We needed to work out how to avoid resistance in some areas affecting other areas’ determination. We want devolution because there are fundamental issues about people in Cornwall knowing what is best for Cornwall, just as is the case in Devon.”

> Cllr Folkes said the county’s “culture, identity and history” made it a special case and that foundations for a devolved assembly, based on the Welsh model, had already been laid through the creation of the unitary authority.”


http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/Lib-Dems-make-bid-Cornish-devolution/story-20572328-detail/story.htm...
Jim C - on 04 Mar 2014
In reply to Jim C:

> Trust you to ask that Bruce, I will now need to find that source again.

> I think it was on a page relating to the Falklands .

> But I will trawl the net and find it, since it is you.

Sorry to take so long, had to go out last night. I could not find my original source, but this might do a similar job.

Looks like to become independant you have to be recognised by the United Nations

http://www.unitedexplanations.org/2011/07/13/why-is-it-so-difficult-to-become-an-independent-country...
Thickhead - on 04 Mar 2014
In reply to Jim C:

So where does that leave Orkney and Shetland?

It would seem to rule out most of mainland Scotland.
mbh - on 04 Mar 2014
In reply to stroppygob:
In sixteen years here, I have not yet seen anything in Cornwall that merits any sort of special case. There are rural communities that have an identity and a vocabulary, but no more than anywhere else, so far as I can see. Cornwall has had rebellions which have been brutally put down, but so has every other part of the UK, if you go back far enough, and you have to go back to the sixteenth century to get to the one that is made most fuss of in Cornwall.

The idea of Cornish people knowing what's best for Cornwall is quite frightening, actually. Who are the Cornish, anyway? Would I count, would I get a vote? Not by some locals' reckoning, I wouldn't. Cornwall is the place, remember, (Wadebridge, to be specific) where a long standing local councillor said that disabled people should be put down, and then got reelected in the elections that happened soon after. He has subsequently stood, down, but it took a while and a lot of pressure before he did. And what of those who thought him worthy of reelection?

The more local devolution happens, the greater the danger, so far as I can see, of swings towards extremism, once the moderating power of a larger electorate is removed. I don't know quite how best to strike the balance between village madness, as I saw happen in Switzerland when I lived there, where the local community could act out its prejudices and have the school teacher sacked, or a central dictatorship, but I would certainly not be confident that local issues would be more competently dealt with in a more devolved future than they are now.

The is a nationalist party here called Mebyon Kurnow. I don't know what it is really like, having only met two people who were standing for it in local elections. One had spouted racist bigotry at me in a pub the one time I met him, the other was a gentle former student of mine who was interested in local history.
Post edited at 07:49
PanzerHanzler on 04 Mar 2014
In reply to Jim C:

I used to work for him when he lived in Suffolk - Captain Calamity just about sums him up. His aptitude for business was marginally better than his sailing.
stroppygob - on 04 Mar 2014
In reply to mbh:
> (In reply to stroppygob) In sixteen years here, I have not yet seen anything in Cornwall that merits any sort of special case.
Me neither in the 12 years I lived there, but check these out.

http://www.cornwall24.co.uk/

http://www.cornishstannaryparliament.co.uk/

http://www.cornishassembly.org/

https://www.mebyonkernow.org/

As you say, Cornish nationalism, like most nationalisms, attracts the weird, dodgy and unpleasant
Bruce Hooker - on 04 Mar 2014
In reply to Jim C:

> Looks like to become independant you have to be recognised by the United Nations

Not really, recognition and admission by the UN comes after. The first step is to take real and effective control of the territory concerned, then usually individual countries will recognise the newly independent country and when this attains a reasonable number the UN will accept your request for membership.
Jim C - on 04 Mar 2014
In reply to Thickhead:

> (In reply to Jim C)
>
> So where does that leave Orkney and Shetland?
>
> It would seem to rule out most of mainland Scotland.

Well maybe Shetland might have more of an issue, but as it was part of a Nation (Norway/Denmark) previous to Scotland even, then they might be ok.

Scottish Mainland seems to be ok as the Referuendim has been granted, it would seem that they have jumped the first hurdle, and of course it was also a nation on its own before the UK, so not ruled out, but to be tested.
Post edited at 12:35
Thickhead - on 04 Mar 2014
In reply to Jim C:

> Well maybe Shetland might have more of an issue, but as it was part of a Nation (Norway/Denmark) previous to Scotland even, then they might be ok.

> Scottish Mainland seems to be ok as the Referuendim has been granted, it would seem that they have jumped the first hurdle, and of course it was also a nation on its own before the UK, so not ruled out, but to be tested.

Sorry, I meant individual parts of Scotland breaking away following Scottish independence.

But as Bruce says, recognition could follow if you had a strong case surely?

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