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Here's some food for thought:
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/mar/07/sarah-vine-miracle-state-e...
Credit where it's due - the first Tory politician to send his child to a state school! And be married to someone - Daily Mail columnist, no less - who seems to have a clue about how the world works - and has a sense of humour, too.
I may have to go and lie down for a while.
http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/mar/07/sarah-vine-miracle-state-e...
Credit where it's due - the first Tory politician to send his child to a state school! And be married to someone - Daily Mail columnist, no less - who seems to have a clue about how the world works - and has a sense of humour, too.
I may have to go and lie down for a while.
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
It seems there's hoohaa in the comments over how selective a state school it is.
When I went to Spanish classes (how middle class) my teacher commented on how even state schools are private in the sense that the better ones have catchment areas which are more expensive to buy or rent a house in.
It's a complex world.
It seems there's hoohaa in the comments over how selective a state school it is.
When I went to Spanish classes (how middle class) my teacher commented on how even state schools are private in the sense that the better ones have catchment areas which are more expensive to buy or rent a house in.
It's a complex world.
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Reading that made me feel a bit puky. Using her child to give herself and her boak of a husband a pat on the back. It's a bit Common People by Pulp. If it's not working they know they can move the wean to a private school.
Reading that made me feel a bit puky. Using her child to give herself and her boak of a husband a pat on the back. It's a bit Common People by Pulp. If it's not working they know they can move the wean to a private school.
In reply to Timmd:
Not forgetting that you might also have to 'believe' in some religion of another to get into a faith school.
So money and mind control.
> It seems there's hoohaa in the comments over how selective a state school it is.
> When I went to Spanish classes (how middle class) my teacher commented on how even state schools are private in the sense that the better ones have catchment areas which are more expensive to buy or rent a house in.
> It's a complex world.
Not forgetting that you might also have to 'believe' in some religion of another to get into a faith school.
So money and mind control.
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Well this is all very confusing. A weird and wonderful mix of honesty, common-sense, hypocrisy and venality. I just can't quite get my head round it.
Well this is all very confusing. A weird and wonderful mix of honesty, common-sense, hypocrisy and venality. I just can't quite get my head round it.
Post edited at 13:48
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Not really a state school in the same sense that the phrase could be used 20 years ago.
Its an academy and charity and highly selective. Even if you ignore that it will be over subscribed, and that some form of selection would then have to take place, the cost of uniform, meals, school trips will deter all but the richest parents. I'm sure there will a number of scholarship places to show they are an inclusive school, but, its not a "bod standard comp" we are talking about here.
Not really a state school in the same sense that the phrase could be used 20 years ago.
Its an academy and charity and highly selective. Even if you ignore that it will be over subscribed, and that some form of selection would then have to take place, the cost of uniform, meals, school trips will deter all but the richest parents. I'm sure there will a number of scholarship places to show they are an inclusive school, but, its not a "bod standard comp" we are talking about here.
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Gove and Vine met while they were both journalists at the Times. Vine was poached by the Daily Mail as one of the Times' more lightweight columnists. The school to which they are sending their daughter is indeed a state school, but one which receives around 8 applications of every place. Entry is not based solely on academic performance, but more than 50% of places are given to pupils whose parents can provide a reference from a clergyman attesting that they are regular attenders at his church.
Gove and Vine met while they were both journalists at the Times. Vine was poached by the Daily Mail as one of the Times' more lightweight columnists. The school to which they are sending their daughter is indeed a state school, but one which receives around 8 applications of every place. Entry is not based solely on academic performance, but more than 50% of places are given to pupils whose parents can provide a reference from a clergyman attesting that they are regular attenders at his church.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Hypocrisy and venality?
> Well this is all very confusing. A weird and wonderful mix of honesty, common-sense, hypocrisy and venality. I just can't quite get my head round it.
Hypocrisy and venality?
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
There are 100 reasons to dislike Gove, but unless he has actively put this story in the media, I really don't see that this is one of them.
Firstly, as a parent he should be doing everything he can to benefit his daughter, without unfairly disadvantaging someone else.
Secondly, he has backed the state education system. Obviously an amazing state school, but still a positive decision. If he had chosen to put his daughter in a sink estate comp, when he can afford much more, he would have been guilty of a hugely cynical political decision.
There are 100 reasons to dislike Gove, but unless he has actively put this story in the media, I really don't see that this is one of them.
Firstly, as a parent he should be doing everything he can to benefit his daughter, without unfairly disadvantaging someone else.
Secondly, he has backed the state education system. Obviously an amazing state school, but still a positive decision. If he had chosen to put his daughter in a sink estate comp, when he can afford much more, he would have been guilty of a hugely cynical political decision.
In reply to Postmanpat:
Maybe he means something more like 'Personal integrity being swayed by the positive political implications of writing about one's own life and daughter'?
If that's the particular point of view one takes, that is...
Maybe he means something more like 'Personal integrity being swayed by the positive political implications of writing about one's own life and daughter'?
If that's the particular point of view one takes, that is...
Post edited at 18:35
In reply to Postmanpat:
Your "someone said something nasty about Michael Gove" alarm seems to be operating a bit slowly!
Your "someone said something nasty about Michael Gove" alarm seems to be operating a bit slowly!
In reply to Mark Morris:
"Selective"? Really? I didn't think academies are allowed to be selective.
Actually just had a read of the admissions criteria - they have 15 places for kids who are gifted at languages, and pretty much the rest go to very keen C of E attenders. But it's anything but academically selective - they do an aptitude tests and take 25% above average, 50% average and 25% below average.
"Selective"? Really? I didn't think academies are allowed to be selective.
Actually just had a read of the admissions criteria - they have 15 places for kids who are gifted at languages, and pretty much the rest go to very keen C of E attenders. But it's anything but academically selective - they do an aptitude tests and take 25% above average, 50% average and 25% below average.
Post edited at 19:01
In reply to Postmanpat:
Because Vine talks about the virtues of the state system providing breadth of experience of the real world, which obviously this state school will not provide
Because both the choice of school and this public presentation of it are part of an electoral campaign.
> Hypocrisy
Because Vine talks about the virtues of the state system providing breadth of experience of the real world, which obviously this state school will not provide
> and venality?
Because both the choice of school and this public presentation of it are part of an electoral campaign.
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
G. I. G. O.
Heaven knows what will happen to Grey Coat now that it's intake is blighted by Tory ministerial DNA.
G. I. G. O.
Heaven knows what will happen to Grey Coat now that it's intake is blighted by Tory ministerial DNA.
In reply to Mark Morris:
Yep, grammar schools that are selective can continue to do so once they're an academy. I think i knew that - my kids go to one! Durr...apologies - i think i'm getting mixed up with free schools. But the school Gove's daughter's going to isn't academically selective, is it? In fact it's deliberately non(academically) selective (as long as you're C of E).
Yep, grammar schools that are selective can continue to do so once they're an academy. I think i knew that - my kids go to one! Durr...apologies - i think i'm getting mixed up with free schools. But the school Gove's daughter's going to isn't academically selective, is it? In fact it's deliberately non(academically) selective (as long as you're C of E).
In reply to andy:
It has a variety of entrance criteria. You can get in irrespective of religious affiliation if your academic credentials are sufficient, with linguistic ability being particularly favoured. It isn't so very remarkable that two journalists on national newspapers should have a daughter able to pass the entrance exam.
It has a variety of entrance criteria. You can get in irrespective of religious affiliation if your academic credentials are sufficient, with linguistic ability being particularly favoured. It isn't so very remarkable that two journalists on national newspapers should have a daughter able to pass the entrance exam.
In reply to John2:
But they say specifically they take 25% above average, 50% average and 25% below average. So not sure how "academic credentials" works - thete's some standard thing in appeals criteria where you can argue a school is particularly "right" for your child, but Gove's school is not academically selective in the same way a grammar school is.
> It has a variety of entrance criteria. You can get in irrespective of religious affiliation if your academic credentials are sufficient, with linguistic ability being particularly favoured. It isn't so very remarkable that two journalists on national newspapers should have a daughter able to pass the entrance exam.
But they say specifically they take 25% above average, 50% average and 25% below average. So not sure how "academic credentials" works - thete's some standard thing in appeals criteria where you can argue a school is particularly "right" for your child, but Gove's school is not academically selective in the same way a grammar school is.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
So the fabled "real world" is confined to what?
And if he sent the child to a private school the reaction would be what?
> Because Vine talks about the virtues of the state system providing breadth of experience of the real world, which obviously this state school will not provide
So the fabled "real world" is confined to what?
> Because both the choice of school and this public presentation of it are part of an electoral campaign.
And if he sent the child to a private school the reaction would be what?
In reply to Postmanpat:
Daft expression, very context dependent. The point is Vine says "Why I want my daughter to go to a state school"..."they also provided me with a broad education... the realisation that you shouldn't judge people by their clothes, or where they live, but by who they really are regardless of circumstances; that kids studying to be hairdressers deserve as much respect as those wanting to be rocket scientists. That, in my view, is the miracle of our state education system. Like the NHS, it welcomes all-comers."
So that's why she's sending her sprog to Grey Coat Hospital girls' school is it?
He's damned either way, I'm afraid. That's life.
But let's consider Sarah Vine for a moment. Do you normally trust people who have made a proud public declaration that they have had sex with the devil, possibly more than once?
> So the fabled "real world" is confined to what?
Daft expression, very context dependent. The point is Vine says "Why I want my daughter to go to a state school"..."they also provided me with a broad education... the realisation that you shouldn't judge people by their clothes, or where they live, but by who they really are regardless of circumstances; that kids studying to be hairdressers deserve as much respect as those wanting to be rocket scientists. That, in my view, is the miracle of our state education system. Like the NHS, it welcomes all-comers."
So that's why she's sending her sprog to Grey Coat Hospital girls' school is it?
> And if he sent the child to a private school the reaction would be what?
He's damned either way, I'm afraid. That's life.
But let's consider Sarah Vine for a moment. Do you normally trust people who have made a proud public declaration that they have had sex with the devil, possibly more than once?
In reply to The New NickB:
Read the objections and, as you imply, it's not what he's done people object to. It's just who he is. If he sent his offspring to a sinkhole comp 300 miles from home where he was guaranteed to be bullied they'd complain that he could afford to go private if it went tits up. If he swore on the bible the kid would stay until he was 18 they'd a) say he was lying and b) say that he was doing it for votes.
Do you lot have to sign form promising to swear everytime his name is mentioned before people will buy you a drink? I hear it's de rigeur at Islington dinner parties.
> Your "someone said something nasty about Michael Gove" alarm seems to be operating a bit slowly!
Read the objections and, as you imply, it's not what he's done people object to. It's just who he is. If he sent his offspring to a sinkhole comp 300 miles from home where he was guaranteed to be bullied they'd complain that he could afford to go private if it went tits up. If he swore on the bible the kid would stay until he was 18 they'd a) say he was lying and b) say that he was doing it for votes.
Do you lot have to sign form promising to swear everytime his name is mentioned before people will buy you a drink? I hear it's de rigeur at Islington dinner parties.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Quite possibly. It's often cited as one of their upsides.
Yes, makes life a bit dull.
I'd never knowingly heard of her until about ten days ago. I thought she was marriedto that DJ that is so popular on ukc......
> So that's why she's sending her sprog to Grey Coat Hospital girls' school is it?
Quite possibly. It's often cited as one of their upsides.
> He's damned either way, I'm afraid. That's life.
Yes, makes life a bit dull.
> But let's consider Sarah Vine for a moment. Do you normally trust people who have made a proud public declaration that they have had sex with the devil, possibly more than once?
I'd never knowingly heard of her until about ten days ago. I thought she was marriedto that DJ that is so popular on ukc......
In reply to Postmanpat:
I wonder what people who cite the diversity of that school would make to the one I went to!? Which was and still is (I think) an excellent school by the way - and one which Gove would hate! We had no uniform, and we certainly didn't write lines or run around the field when we were naughty, we were told off by the member of staff of appropriate seniority and/or given detention. Odd how they were sending students off to Oxbridge every year (but only the middle class ones).
> Quite possibly. It's often cited as one of their upsides.
I wonder what people who cite the diversity of that school would make to the one I went to!? Which was and still is (I think) an excellent school by the way - and one which Gove would hate! We had no uniform, and we certainly didn't write lines or run around the field when we were naughty, we were told off by the member of staff of appropriate seniority and/or given detention. Odd how they were sending students off to Oxbridge every year (but only the middle class ones).
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Well you haven't told us how diverse (or not) it was.
I think if it did the best for its pupils he'd be very pleased, that's why he is promoting more independence for schools.
I remember Saint Tony Benn making political capital out of sending his heirs to a comprehensive...Holland Park Comprehensive! They could hardly move through the crush of labour luvvie offspring....School of hard knocks that was
Why doesn't the bloody edit function work?
> I wonder what people who cite the diversity of that school would make to the one I went to!? Which was and still is (I think) an excellent school by the way - and one which Gove would hate! We had no uniform, and we certainly didn't write lines or run around the field when we were naughty, we were told off by the member of staff of appropriate seniority and/or given detention. Odd how they were sending students off to Oxbridge every year (but only the middle class ones).
Well you haven't told us how diverse (or not) it was.
I think if it did the best for its pupils he'd be very pleased, that's why he is promoting more independence for schools.
I remember Saint Tony Benn making political capital out of sending his heirs to a comprehensive...Holland Park Comprehensive! They could hardly move through the crush of labour luvvie offspring....School of hard knocks that was
Why doesn't the bloody edit function work?
Post edited at 23:19
In reply to Postmanpat:
Quite big contingents of both white middle class and white working class; quite a lot of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, a fair few British black kids (all from fairly poor families), and handful (1 or 2 in most classes I think) of very recent Somali refugees who didn't know what the hell what was going on.
But he's demonstrated that he disagrees completely that the ethos the school had was best for its pupils. He's be round saying that if the kids 3 weeks out of war-torn Somalia were being made to write lines, they'd be getting straight As at A-level too, and that they're being failed by the wishy-washy lefty policies! Ofsted would be round to tell all the teachers that they're shit and can't do their jobs, and the management would be busy overhauling the governance and contributing absolutely nothing to the life of the school! The teachers would be so demoralised that the strong tradition of outdoor ed would have died, all the experienced teachers would be looking for the earliest opportunity to retire, and all the young ones would be planning to retrain for a profession that delivers a modicum of job satisfaction.
> Well you haven't told us how diverse (or not) it was.
Quite big contingents of both white middle class and white working class; quite a lot of Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, a fair few British black kids (all from fairly poor families), and handful (1 or 2 in most classes I think) of very recent Somali refugees who didn't know what the hell what was going on.
> I think if it did the best for its pupils he'd be very pleased, that's why he is promoting more independence for schools.
But he's demonstrated that he disagrees completely that the ethos the school had was best for its pupils. He's be round saying that if the kids 3 weeks out of war-torn Somalia were being made to write lines, they'd be getting straight As at A-level too, and that they're being failed by the wishy-washy lefty policies! Ofsted would be round to tell all the teachers that they're shit and can't do their jobs, and the management would be busy overhauling the governance and contributing absolutely nothing to the life of the school! The teachers would be so demoralised that the strong tradition of outdoor ed would have died, all the experienced teachers would be looking for the earliest opportunity to retire, and all the young ones would be planning to retrain for a profession that delivers a modicum of job satisfaction.
In reply to Postmanpat:
Who do you think we are? I'm sure Gove goes to lots more Islington dinner parties than 'we' do.
> Do you lot have to sign form promising to swear everytime his name is mentioned before people will buy you a drink? I hear it's de rigeur at Islington dinner parties.
Who do you think we are? I'm sure Gove goes to lots more Islington dinner parties than 'we' do.
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
This isn't what the article says.
> Credit where it's due - the first Tory politician to send his child to a state school!
This isn't what the article says.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
ve·nal
1. willing to sell one's influence, especially in return for a bribe; open to bribery; mercenary: a venal judge.
2. able to be purchased, as by a bribe: venal acquittals.
3. associated with or characterized by bribery: a venal administration; venal agreements.
Try a different word.
> (In reply to Postmanpat)
> and venality?
> and venality?
> Because both the choice of school and this public presentation of it are part of an electoral campaign.
ve·nal
1. willing to sell one's influence, especially in return for a bribe; open to bribery; mercenary: a venal judge.
2. able to be purchased, as by a bribe: venal acquittals.
3. associated with or characterized by bribery: a venal administration; venal agreements.
Try a different word.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Except that he's not.
I'm genuinely unsure whether hate him because you don't understand what he is about or you deliberately misrepresent him because you hate him. Maybe both?
> But he's demonstrated that he disagrees completely that the ethos the school had was best for its pupils. He's be round saying that if the kids 3 weeks out of war-torn Somalia were being made to write lines, they'd be getting straight As at A-level too,
Except that he's not.
I'm genuinely unsure whether hate him because you don't understand what he is about or you deliberately misrepresent him because you hate him. Maybe both?
In reply to stroppygob:
No, I think it's the right word. Electoral campaign or money/bribery, the concept is the same. Venality is about having dishonest, low motives.
No, I think it's the right word. Electoral campaign or money/bribery, the concept is the same. Venality is about having dishonest, low motives.
In reply to Postmanpat:
Well I certainly hate him.
He has a view that olde worlde techniques in education, e.g. writing lines, running round the field as punishment, 100% exam assessment provide better outcomes for students. I was mocking this view by the exaggeration that Somali refugees, whose behaviour was not exemplary, might benefit academically from writing lines. I don't think this is misrepresenting him, just mocking his ridiculous views.
Well I certainly hate him.
He has a view that olde worlde techniques in education, e.g. writing lines, running round the field as punishment, 100% exam assessment provide better outcomes for students. I was mocking this view by the exaggeration that Somali refugees, whose behaviour was not exemplary, might benefit academically from writing lines. I don't think this is misrepresenting him, just mocking his ridiculous views.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
The problem is he isnt even consistent. State schools have to go along with his whim of the week whilst allowing the free schools to drop anything they dont like.
There was an interesting bit in private eye this week about the University of London institute of Education wanting to set up a free school alongside Camden council. Which has been told it doesnt meet the high standards needed. Possibly because it doesnt include religious extremism as a free add on.
> I don't think this is misrepresenting him, just mocking his ridiculous views.
The problem is he isnt even consistent. State schools have to go along with his whim of the week whilst allowing the free schools to drop anything they dont like.
There was an interesting bit in private eye this week about the University of London institute of Education wanting to set up a free school alongside Camden council. Which has been told it doesnt meet the high standards needed. Possibly because it doesnt include religious extremism as a free add on.
Post edited at 23:26
In reply to Jon Stewart:
I disagree venailty is overt corruption, you cannot just libel a person that way without evidence that they are taking bribes.
Full Definition of VENAL
1: capable of being bought or obtained for money or other valuable consideration : purchasable; especially : open to corrupt influence and especially bribery : mercenary <a venal legislator>
2: originating in, characterized by, or associated with corrupt bribery <a venal arrangement with the police>
Venality is a vice associated with being bribeable or of selling one's services or power, especially when one should act justly instead
ve¡¤nal (v¨¥¡änəl)
a. Open to bribery; mercenary: a venal police officer.
b. Capable of betraying honor, duty, or scruples for a price; corruptible.
2. Marked by corrupt dealings, especially bribery: a venal administration.
3. Obtainable for a price.
venal
adjective A venal person is willing to behave in a way that is not honest or moral in exchange for money:
I disagree venailty is overt corruption, you cannot just libel a person that way without evidence that they are taking bribes.
Full Definition of VENAL
1: capable of being bought or obtained for money or other valuable consideration : purchasable; especially : open to corrupt influence and especially bribery : mercenary <a venal legislator>
2: originating in, characterized by, or associated with corrupt bribery <a venal arrangement with the police>
Venality is a vice associated with being bribeable or of selling one's services or power, especially when one should act justly instead
ve¡¤nal (v¨¥¡änəl)
a. Open to bribery; mercenary: a venal police officer.
b. Capable of betraying honor, duty, or scruples for a price; corruptible.
2. Marked by corrupt dealings, especially bribery: a venal administration.
3. Obtainable for a price.
venal
adjective A venal person is willing to behave in a way that is not honest or moral in exchange for money:
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Life's too short to waste it on hating people just because they have a different political stance to you.
> (In reply to Postmanpat)
>
> Well I certainly hate him.
>
> Well I certainly hate him.
Life's too short to waste it on hating people just because they have a different political stance to you.
Post edited at 23:43
In reply to stroppygob:
Capable of betraying honor, duty, or scruples for a price; corruptible.
The price here, being votes/power for hubby. You might be right about the definition strictly being about money, but what I meant was that everything about this - both the decision of where to educate her child, and her blathering on about her motives in the paper - were just cynically motivated by votes for hubby.
Capable of betraying honor, duty, or scruples for a price; corruptible.
The price here, being votes/power for hubby. You might be right about the definition strictly being about money, but what I meant was that everything about this - both the decision of where to educate her child, and her blathering on about her motives in the paper - were just cynically motivated by votes for hubby.
In reply to stroppygob:
That's not why I hate him.
> Life's too short to waste it on hating people just because they have a different political stance to you.
That's not why I hate him.
In reply to Jon Stewart:
Oh come on Jon, do you you really know the woman that well? Or do you just believe what the papers tell you?
> (In reply to stroppygob)
>
>
> The price here, being votes/power for hubby. You might be right about the definition strictly being about money, but what I meant was that everything about this - both the decision of where to educate her child, and her blathering on about her motives in the paper - were just cynically motivated by votes for hubby.
>
>
> The price here, being votes/power for hubby. You might be right about the definition strictly being about money, but what I meant was that everything about this - both the decision of where to educate her child, and her blathering on about her motives in the paper - were just cynically motivated by votes for hubby.
Oh come on Jon, do you you really know the woman that well? Or do you just believe what the papers tell you?
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