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I can see why aid climbs have pretty much died out in the uk, advances in training techniques have rendered many routes usurped by free climbing. However, seeing that sometimes aid is the only way, i wonder how we can re-instate some of these routes across the grade range to allow people the opportunity to train for big wall ambitions abroad.
In reply to Mark Collins:
Bearing in mind a lot of the aid climbs in the US are 'clean' aid, I don't see anything wrong with repeating UK routes in the same fashion (i.e. clean aid).
Bearing in mind a lot of the aid climbs in the US are 'clean' aid, I don't see anything wrong with repeating UK routes in the same fashion (i.e. clean aid).
In reply to Mark Collins:
I did an aid climbing course with Andy Kirkpatrick a few years ago. We just clean aided some less popular cracks at Curbar on a quiet day. Short but good practice.
I did an aid climbing course with Andy Kirkpatrick a few years ago. We just clean aided some less popular cracks at Curbar on a quiet day. Short but good practice.
In reply to Mark Collins:
Clean aided quite a few routes in my time - usually because I got caught out in a downpour and it was the only way out. Routes like the Cave Routes at Goredale are doable on clean aid as is the first pitch of Kilnsey Main OH (well the second pitch across the roof is free if you are good enough)
There's a few aid lines in the Llanberis slate quarries, don't know where the descriptions are available.
Clean aided quite a few routes in my time - usually because I got caught out in a downpour and it was the only way out. Routes like the Cave Routes at Goredale are doable on clean aid as is the first pitch of Kilnsey Main OH (well the second pitch across the roof is free if you are good enough)
There's a few aid lines in the Llanberis slate quarries, don't know where the descriptions are available.
In reply to Mark Collins:
I see people aiding (pulling on gear, tight ropes) all the time. Just get on with it.
I see people aiding (pulling on gear, tight ropes) all the time. Just get on with it.
Just get on with it.
Although I had the advantage of living near Yorkshire limestone in the early 70's, the aid routes were an excellent practice ground. With a few Alpine routes under my belt I went to Yosemite and did Leaning Tower, Salathe and the Nose in 79 after a bit of practice with the crack climbing.
So just get on with it, the Supertopo "Road to the Nose" and the John Long books lead you up to big walls.
Having said that a few venues like the Dry Toolers have would not go amiss.
Or go to Spain, they are still well in to "mixed" routes.
Although I had the advantage of living near Yorkshire limestone in the early 70's, the aid routes were an excellent practice ground. With a few Alpine routes under my belt I went to Yosemite and did Leaning Tower, Salathe and the Nose in 79 after a bit of practice with the crack climbing.
So just get on with it, the Supertopo "Road to the Nose" and the John Long books lead you up to big walls.
Having said that a few venues like the Dry Toolers have would not go amiss.
Or go to Spain, they are still well in to "mixed" routes.
In reply to a lakeland climber:
Even back in the late 60's we hardly ever put pegs in established aid routes, generally situ pegs, a few free moves and the odd nut would suffice.
Even back in the late 60's we hardly ever put pegs in established aid routes, generally situ pegs, a few free moves and the odd nut would suffice.
In reply to Al Evans:
do you remember Phil I think it was Al who drilled holes and threaded them instead of bolts
do you remember Phil I think it was Al who drilled holes and threaded them instead of bolts
In reply to Mick Ward:
Didn't he have another nickname, which I won't post, in case he is still around and knows where I live!
Didn't he have another nickname, which I won't post, in case he is still around and knows where I live!
In reply to johncook:
I can honestly say that, if he did, I didn't know it. I never met him. My mates knew him quite well and reckoned he was quite a colourful character.
Apparently, on some aid horror at Gordale, despite successive entreaties from his second, Curly Bill, he kept giving it, "Just one peg more." "Just one peg more." "Just one peg more." In the end, through sheer desperation (mid-afternoon in mid-winter, no headtorches), the rope came tight. Bill, the kindliest of people, had abbed off.
And there was the tale of him and Shagger going off the end of the rope on Hangman. Which one cut it (again in desperation)? I can't remember.
Why, oh why, did we start these crumbling aid horrors far too late on winter days that were far too short? The most cursory examination of logistics would have revealed epics just dying to happen.
Oh to be young and foolish once again!
Mick
I can honestly say that, if he did, I didn't know it. I never met him. My mates knew him quite well and reckoned he was quite a colourful character.
Apparently, on some aid horror at Gordale, despite successive entreaties from his second, Curly Bill, he kept giving it, "Just one peg more." "Just one peg more." "Just one peg more." In the end, through sheer desperation (mid-afternoon in mid-winter, no headtorches), the rope came tight. Bill, the kindliest of people, had abbed off.
And there was the tale of him and Shagger going off the end of the rope on Hangman. Which one cut it (again in desperation)? I can't remember.
Why, oh why, did we start these crumbling aid horrors far too late on winter days that were far too short? The most cursory examination of logistics would have revealed epics just dying to happen.
Oh to be young and foolish once again!
Mick
In reply to The Pylon King:
Clean aid: No pegs (apart from fixed gear), just nuts, threads and skyhooks.
I thought the Shagger tale was on Cave Route? Didn't think they cut the rope just abseiled off the end of it. Paul (Shagger) did tell me the tale but I can't remember all of it. I think it might have been in one of Crags magazine in their "How not to abseil" section.
Clean aid: No pegs (apart from fixed gear), just nuts, threads and skyhooks.
I thought the Shagger tale was on Cave Route? Didn't think they cut the rope just abseiled off the end of it. Paul (Shagger) did tell me the tale but I can't remember all of it. I think it might have been in one of Crags magazine in their "How not to abseil" section.
In reply to Mark Collins:
Mark myself and two mates are training for big walling. We are just picking lines that will go clean aid!just a shame there's no real resource as such to pick them out easier!
Mark myself and two mates are training for big walling. We are just picking lines that will go clean aid!just a shame there's no real resource as such to pick them out easier!
In reply to All:
Thanks guys, food for thought. I myself am training for Yosemite and just completed Kilnsey Main Overhang yesterday, via unbridled use of a clip stick. This seems the only practical approach to the roof at least, considering that some of the original bolts and pegs have disintegrated to a rusty stain. With this route going free, yet still an incredible aid route, it makes it difficult to re-equip where required, without upsetting the free climbers. I guess the right thing to do is to leave it as it is (maintained for sport climbing), and make the best use of it you can from an aid point of view.
Thanks guys, food for thought. I myself am training for Yosemite and just completed Kilnsey Main Overhang yesterday, via unbridled use of a clip stick. This seems the only practical approach to the roof at least, considering that some of the original bolts and pegs have disintegrated to a rusty stain. With this route going free, yet still an incredible aid route, it makes it difficult to re-equip where required, without upsetting the free climbers. I guess the right thing to do is to leave it as it is (maintained for sport climbing), and make the best use of it you can from an aid point of view.
Post edited at 08:57
In reply to a lakeland climber:
Yes, I heard that tale too and it was indeed attributed to Shagger and on Cave Route, but can't remember which one was first down. Didn't the first person down groan as he hit the ground, which the second person took to be 'OK, come on down'. Of course the second person also went off the end, but landed on the first.
Yes, I heard that tale too and it was indeed attributed to Shagger and on Cave Route, but can't remember which one was first down. Didn't the first person down groan as he hit the ground, which the second person took to be 'OK, come on down'. Of course the second person also went off the end, but landed on the first.
Post edited at 09:30
In reply to victorclimber:
Yeh, when Malham was all bolts on the main face, Webby developed a technique of drilling two holes and then threading them with a thin sling, I wrote about this in an edition of I think 'Rocksport'. Considering he was using the technique with hand drills and a hammer, on the lead I thought at the time it was a more noble effort than just sticking a bolt in.
> do you remember Phil I think it was Al who drilled holes and threaded them instead of bolts
Yeh, when Malham was all bolts on the main face, Webby developed a technique of drilling two holes and then threading them with a thin sling, I wrote about this in an edition of I think 'Rocksport'. Considering he was using the technique with hand drills and a hammer, on the lead I thought at the time it was a more noble effort than just sticking a bolt in.
In reply to jon:
The story goes 'one of them broke both wrists and one both his ankles, I think it was shagger that broke his wrists so it was he that was designated to stagger to the nearest farm to alert a rescue, when he got there he realised he couldn't knock on the door so had to boot it with his foot'
This is the way it was told to me by Ron Fawcett who was a mate of theirs at the time ( I was later), but it could be a very exagerrated story
The story goes 'one of them broke both wrists and one both his ankles, I think it was shagger that broke his wrists so it was he that was designated to stagger to the nearest farm to alert a rescue, when he got there he realised he couldn't knock on the door so had to boot it with his foot'
This is the way it was told to me by Ron Fawcett who was a mate of theirs at the time ( I was later), but it could be a very exagerrated story
In reply to jon:
One abbed down in the dark and got stuck at a knot. After a while and having failed to sort the tangle out he decided to cut the rope and dropped about six foot on to the floor breaking both wrists. The second felt that the rope had gone slack and asked if it was OK to descend, "Yes" was the reply. He abbed down and off the end of the rope landing next to the first but breaking his ankles in the process
(I may have got the ankles/wrists the wrong way round)
After groaning for a while, it's decided that the guy with the broken wrists should go for help. There used to be one of the old red phone boxes at Goredale but of course with both wrist broken he couldn't open the door! So he went to the farm but was unable to knock so attracted the farmer's attention by kicking the door repeatedly.
One abbed down in the dark and got stuck at a knot. After a while and having failed to sort the tangle out he decided to cut the rope and dropped about six foot on to the floor breaking both wrists. The second felt that the rope had gone slack and asked if it was OK to descend, "Yes" was the reply. He abbed down and off the end of the rope landing next to the first but breaking his ankles in the process
(I may have got the ankles/wrists the wrong way round)
After groaning for a while, it's decided that the guy with the broken wrists should go for help. There used to be one of the old red phone boxes at Goredale but of course with both wrist broken he couldn't open the door! So he went to the farm but was unable to knock so attracted the farmer's attention by kicking the door repeatedly.
In reply to Mick Ward:
Why, oh why, did we start these crumbling aid horrors far too late on winter days that were far too short? The most cursory examination of logistics would have revealed epics just dying to happen.
Aid climbing was something we did in winter, it was usually snowing or at least raining and you always finished in the dark and had an epic getting back to the foot of the climb, some great fun and some great days
Why, oh why, did we start these crumbling aid horrors far too late on winter days that were far too short? The most cursory examination of logistics would have revealed epics just dying to happen.
> Oh to be young and foolish once again!
> Mick
Aid climbing was something we did in winter, it was usually snowing or at least raining and you always finished in the dark and had an epic getting back to the foot of the climb, some great fun and some great days
In reply to Al Evans:
That sounds great, and perhaps my perception but it seems like quite a lot of people were doing that kind of activity back then. I get the impression today that a days rock climbing for most, consists of the sanitry 'pleasures' of the indoor wall before heading to the tea shop, at the hint of rain. Is it time to embrace the rain again?
That sounds great, and perhaps my perception but it seems like quite a lot of people were doing that kind of activity back then. I get the impression today that a days rock climbing for most, consists of the sanitry 'pleasures' of the indoor wall before heading to the tea shop, at the hint of rain. Is it time to embrace the rain again?
In reply to Mark Collins:
Kilnsey Main is not really good practice for Yosemite. There are no large roofs on El Cap. You need vertical/gently overhanging to practice on. Theres none left in the UK. Best practice is get out there and do the first few pitches of any route, the harder the better! and just rap off.
Kilnsey Main is not really good practice for Yosemite. There are no large roofs on El Cap. You need vertical/gently overhanging to practice on. Theres none left in the UK. Best practice is get out there and do the first few pitches of any route, the harder the better! and just rap off.
In reply to Al Evans:
The other thing of course is that you got a good look at the free possibilities when the sun came out again. I think I am still the only person to do Raven Tor Girdle AND Cream Team Special
> Aid climbing was something we did in winter, it was usually snowing or at least raining and you always finished in the dark and had an epic getting back to the foot of the climb, some great fun and some great days
The other thing of course is that you got a good look at the free possibilities when the sun came out again. I think I am still the only person to do Raven Tor Girdle AND Cream Team Special
In reply to Al Evans:
sounds like a challenge Al, far too hard for me but i'm sure someone will fall for it.
sounds like a challenge Al, far too hard for me but i'm sure someone will fall for it.
In reply to Mark Collins:
There were a lot of the old aid routes at Malham which had drilled threads and "Bat-Hook" moves.
Bat-Hooking (IIRC) was invented by Warren Harding in the States.
Consisted of a shallow down-angled bolt hole and a straighter sky hook.
Quite exciting when you are on the 4th or 5th bat-hook move in a row, with only a 4mm thread 25 feet below you!
Routes such as Piggy Bank Wall and many others provided great sport on Winter days!
There were a lot of the old aid routes at Malham which had drilled threads and "Bat-Hook" moves.
Bat-Hooking (IIRC) was invented by Warren Harding in the States.
Consisted of a shallow down-angled bolt hole and a straighter sky hook.
Quite exciting when you are on the 4th or 5th bat-hook move in a row, with only a 4mm thread 25 feet below you!
Routes such as Piggy Bank Wall and many others provided great sport on Winter days!
In reply to ewar woowar:
I'd stay way clear of limestone routes and old aid bolt ups and stick to grit quaries where you have planty of cracks and peg scares. I learnt at milstone (on a top rope first, then rope soloing) and routes like London Wall, Wall Wall and the embankment lines are perfect. Never use sky hooks (the rock is too soft) or hammer pegs, but hand placed pegs are needed on some routes (white wall). This kind of training on wet days with big boots on is fun and gives you the skills to do very hard routes in the alps and big walls anywhere.
cheers
andy
I'd stay way clear of limestone routes and old aid bolt ups and stick to grit quaries where you have planty of cracks and peg scares. I learnt at milstone (on a top rope first, then rope soloing) and routes like London Wall, Wall Wall and the embankment lines are perfect. Never use sky hooks (the rock is too soft) or hammer pegs, but hand placed pegs are needed on some routes (white wall). This kind of training on wet days with big boots on is fun and gives you the skills to do very hard routes in the alps and big walls anywhere.
cheers
andy
In reply to Mark Collins:
A good place to practice moving between bolts and steep stuff on aid is a climbing wall. I would say a climbing wall is a good place to practice a lot of big wall stuff. That way you can do it in the rain when you could get out to climb. Auto belays make it safe and you can both be practicing at the same time.
For cracks and vertical, most grit or granite crags.
Using hooks for aid in the UK is likely to upset people as is does mark the rock.
PS. I put up an aid route at Swanage the other day.
A good place to practice moving between bolts and steep stuff on aid is a climbing wall. I would say a climbing wall is a good place to practice a lot of big wall stuff. That way you can do it in the rain when you could get out to climb. Auto belays make it safe and you can both be practicing at the same time.
For cracks and vertical, most grit or granite crags.
Using hooks for aid in the UK is likely to upset people as is does mark the rock.
PS. I put up an aid route at Swanage the other day.
In reply to ewar woowar:
Interesting stuff, I had no idea about bat hooks. Sounds very exciting, cheers for the info.
> (In reply to Mark Collins)
>
> There were a lot of the old aid routes at Malham which had drilled threads and "Bat-Hook" moves.
>
> Bat-Hooking (IIRC) was invented by Warren Harding in the States.
>
> Consisted of a shallow down-angled bolt hole and a straighter sky hook.
>
> Quite exciting when you are on the 4th or 5th bat-hook move in a row, with only a 4mm thread 25 feet below you!
>
> Routes such as Piggy Bank Wall and many others provided great sport on Winter days!
>
> There were a lot of the old aid routes at Malham which had drilled threads and "Bat-Hook" moves.
>
> Bat-Hooking (IIRC) was invented by Warren Harding in the States.
>
> Consisted of a shallow down-angled bolt hole and a straighter sky hook.
>
> Quite exciting when you are on the 4th or 5th bat-hook move in a row, with only a 4mm thread 25 feet below you!
>
> Routes such as Piggy Bank Wall and many others provided great sport on Winter days!
Interesting stuff, I had no idea about bat hooks. Sounds very exciting, cheers for the info.
In reply to David Coley:
Cheers, but I don't really fancy joining the crowds down there. I do think it's a good idea though, providing you have sympathetic wall staff and users.
You couldn't write this up in the logbook could you please? I doubt if I'll be heading to Swanage any time soon, but would be nice to see it recorded.
> (In reply to Mark Collins)
>
> A good place to practice moving between bolts and steep stuff on aid is a climbing wall. I would say a climbing wall is a good place to practice a lot of big wall stuff. That way you can do it in the rain when you could get out to climb. Auto belays make it safe and you can both be practicing at the same time.
>
> A good place to practice moving between bolts and steep stuff on aid is a climbing wall. I would say a climbing wall is a good place to practice a lot of big wall stuff. That way you can do it in the rain when you could get out to climb. Auto belays make it safe and you can both be practicing at the same time.
Cheers, but I don't really fancy joining the crowds down there. I do think it's a good idea though, providing you have sympathetic wall staff and users.
> PS. I put up an aid route at Swanage the other day.
You couldn't write this up in the logbook could you please? I doubt if I'll be heading to Swanage any time soon, but would be nice to see it recorded.
In reply to webbo:
Completely untrue Steve
> and you probably did Raven tor Girdle with less aid points.
>
Completely untrue Steve
In reply to Mark Collins:
Maybe someone could suggest a few first aid routes (no pun intended!) for the uninitiated youth of today to harrow themselves on. I've done Kyrie Elison and The Bat but they are all on insitu shiney new bolts (plus a few older more rotting threads on KE). I've also done The wicked which is slightly more interesting as some of the bolts don't have hangers. I wouldn't know what to do next though. Is there a topo anywhere of yorkshire aid routes? I'm not really interested in something that has been freed, aiding that seems a bit pointless. What I want is some ancient rotting fixed gear, the opportunity to place a bit of my own and a grand day out!
Maybe someone could suggest a few first aid routes (no pun intended!) for the uninitiated youth of today to harrow themselves on. I've done Kyrie Elison and The Bat but they are all on insitu shiney new bolts (plus a few older more rotting threads on KE). I've also done The wicked which is slightly more interesting as some of the bolts don't have hangers. I wouldn't know what to do next though. Is there a topo anywhere of yorkshire aid routes? I'm not really interested in something that has been freed, aiding that seems a bit pointless. What I want is some ancient rotting fixed gear, the opportunity to place a bit of my own and a grand day out!
In reply to a lakeland climber:
Yours is the version I recall. 'The thinking that made Yorkshire great' is a phrase I seem to recall from the article.
> Clean aid: No pegs (apart from fixed gear), just nuts, threads and skyhooks.
> I thought the Shagger tale was on Cave Route? Didn't think they cut the rope just abseiled off the end of it. Paul (Shagger) did tell me the tale but I can't remember all of it. I think it might have been in one of Crags magazine in their "How not to abseil" section.
Yours is the version I recall. 'The thinking that made Yorkshire great' is a phrase I seem to recall from the article.
In reply to Somerset swede basher:
Not that I no of re topo of Yorkshire aid routes. I'm tempted to compile a tick list on here, but I fear the neglect of these routes would mean considerable sand bagging or worse.
Not that I no of re topo of Yorkshire aid routes. I'm tempted to compile a tick list on here, but I fear the neglect of these routes would mean considerable sand bagging or worse.
In reply to Somerset swede basher
These days you probably need to go on some of the desperately loose big cliffs, like say Bempton on the Yorkshire coast, or something overhanging and loose on The Culm.
Incidently we used far less bolts on the f/a of The Bat than are in now, it was all hand drilled on the lead and we did anything rather than place a bolt it was just so knackering, we were stacking 4 or 5 pegs into holes up in the roof and on occaisions the stack would break and off we'd come. It took us two days and we kipped at the bottom of it overnight. WE just swapped leads and kept prusiking up to our high point.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=106732
The guys on the left are 'Black Fred' and Pete Pearson on the first ascent of The Ball, which I think has now gone free.
> Maybe someone could suggest a few first aid routes (no pun intended!) for the uninitiated youth of today to harrow themselves on. I've done Kyrie Elison and The Bat but they are all on insitu shiney new bolts (plus a few older more rotting threads on KE).
These days you probably need to go on some of the desperately loose big cliffs, like say Bempton on the Yorkshire coast, or something overhanging and loose on The Culm.
Incidently we used far less bolts on the f/a of The Bat than are in now, it was all hand drilled on the lead and we did anything rather than place a bolt it was just so knackering, we were stacking 4 or 5 pegs into holes up in the roof and on occaisions the stack would break and off we'd come. It took us two days and we kipped at the bottom of it overnight. WE just swapped leads and kept prusiking up to our high point.
http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.php?id=106732
The guys on the left are 'Black Fred' and Pete Pearson on the first ascent of The Ball, which I think has now gone free.
In reply to Al Evans:
Al - Did you ever think these aid routes would ever be freed when you were putting them up? Or was it just not something you thought about?
> The guys on the left are 'Black Fred' and Pete Pearson on the first ascent of The Ball, which I think has now gone free.
Al - Did you ever think these aid routes would ever be freed when you were putting them up? Or was it just not something you thought about?
In reply to mattrm:
Well I didn't think The Bat would ever be freed and it still hasn't yet, I think one or two of my routes which used the odd point of aid have gone completely free now, but I feel quite secure about what I did with the gear and the times.
> Al - Did you ever think these aid routes would ever be freed when you were putting them up? Or was it just not something you thought about?
Well I didn't think The Bat would ever be freed and it still hasn't yet, I think one or two of my routes which used the odd point of aid have gone completely free now, but I feel quite secure about what I did with the gear and the times.
In reply to Al Evans:
Yes I think that was his point Al to make it hard so that you would try anything rather than Bolt ..
Yes I think that was his point Al to make it hard so that you would try anything rather than Bolt ..
There are still quite a few aid routes around, I've done several in the south west, my old stomping grounds, they do take a bit of finding though, I've even had a hand in putting up some new routes.
Trouble is these pesky free climbers can't leave them alone, no matter how crap the route, they have to free it, and claim it as some great addition to the climbing community.
Climbing a bolt ladder is not aid climbing, said it before and I'll say it again.
You can still get your fill of hard pegging, hooking, lead heading etc. in the verdon, without upsetting the locals.
If you want to try some real commitment try The Curse.........
Trouble is these pesky free climbers can't leave them alone, no matter how crap the route, they have to free it, and claim it as some great addition to the climbing community.
Climbing a bolt ladder is not aid climbing, said it before and I'll say it again.
You can still get your fill of hard pegging, hooking, lead heading etc. in the verdon, without upsetting the locals.
If you want to try some real commitment try The Curse.........
In reply to Mark Collins:
If you're interested in clean aid in preparation for El Cap routes then you can't beat Hobson Moor. My entire aiding experience before doing the Nose was based on a couple of hours in Hobby including hauling and jugging.
For more on How to Climb a Big Wall check out our charity slideshow on – Sunday 30 March at 6.30pm at Manchester Climbing Centre,
http://www.manchesterclimbingcentre.com/fundraising-night-for-cac-and-the-c...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=580555
If you're interested in clean aid in preparation for El Cap routes then you can't beat Hobson Moor. My entire aiding experience before doing the Nose was based on a couple of hours in Hobby including hauling and jugging.
For more on How to Climb a Big Wall check out our charity slideshow on – Sunday 30 March at 6.30pm at Manchester Climbing Centre,
http://www.manchesterclimbingcentre.com/fundraising-night-for-cac-and-the-c...
http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=580555
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