UKC

I've just upgraded from Vista to Windows 7 and to my dismay have found that it is no longer possible in Photo Gallery to sort photos into the order I want by clicking and dragging them. So basically it is absolutely useless (you can sort by any number of silly criteria but not into the order you actually want - typical bloody Microsoft).

Anyway, can anyone recommend anything good I can download, preferably free, in which I can open my folders and sort the photos. I use Picasa for slideshows but it doesn't seem to be possible to sort them in that either.

In reply to Robert Durran:

It's not free but judging by the fact that you seem to take your photography seriously, I would get Lightroom. It's perfect for cataloging.

I also use it, as the name suggests, as a modern day "darkroom" for RAW files. I can develop them in a less gaudy way than some auto JPG settings are inclined to do.

Hope this helps.

L

In reply to Robert Durran:

Everyone* is going to tell you Lightroom

Now you've invested in the Fuji - the XE1 deserves it...


(* not strictly true)

In reply to ChrisJD:

Would photoshop elements do just as well?


And I've just got an RX100 too for when weight is an issue (ie technical climbing) so that my climbing shots are not shown up by my XE-1 shots in slideshows

In reply to Robert Durran:

Lightroom is designed to be particularly effective for sorting, cataloguing, importing and basic processing. I suppose its initial audience was people like wedding photographers who don't want to be doing photoshop work on every picture, but do want to sort and handle thousands of images.

Lightroom itself still doesn't let you 'drag and drop' to sequence photos, but I'm not sure that I understand what that is for? As an idea of the kind of cataloguing and publishing functions it has, you can:

- Create hierarchical 'collections' very easily
- Attach captions, titles, tags etc to photos
- Flag, star, rate, compare, review and group photos
- Create galleries/slide shows of selected photos
- Create copies and 'snapshots' of photos so that you can have differently processed versions at the click of a button
- Control which photos (and what information) is published eg to Flickr, Facebook
- Output properly scaled, sharpened and colour controlled files for display, print etc

These are just the more basic functions, and I haven't even got into the development functions (which in many ways are the meat of the package) - it is very powerful if you need it to be, but the basic stuff is well put together and simple to use after a little bit of playing around.

one of the best things is that Lightroom does all of this without touching your original files and folders, so you
a) can't really mess up that badly, and
b) stand less chance of corrupting files by moving/copying them, and
c) don't lose quality as you edit and process files

Apologies if much of that was stuff you already knew - just though it was helpful to outline some general features.

In reply to hamsforlegs:


So that when I have a whole lot of photos from a trip (possibly from different cameras belonging to different people) I can easily create a slideshow with the photos in the precise order of my choosing (and this won't always be in the exact order they were taken). I would have though this was a pretty basic requirement.

I could rename the pictures with numbers in the order I want and then sort by name, but compared with clicking and dragging it is very inefficient.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Yes you can do just that(or at least you can do that in v3.6). Create a "Collection" by dragging and dropping the required images, then sort the selected images within the collection either by image attribute or again by dragging and dropping.

The nice thing is you can create several collections from the same set of images and sort the images differently in each collection.

Then create a slideshow from the desired collection which can then be exported as a PDF or a video.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Got it.

I've always thought of creating a slideshow as a different thing from sorting and filing photos in folders. As telemark noted, Lightroom has good support for creating slideshows.

He also points out a mistake I made - you can, in fact, drag and drop photos so that Lightroom will display them in a different order, so you wouldn't even need to create and export a slideshow if you weren't inclined or able.

Mark

In reply to Robert Durran:

Forgot that we needed to take into account the following from your profile "my loathing of computers......" !

You're on a loser straight away unless you can learn to embrace computers.

In reply to ChrisJD:


Yes, but my loathing of photoshopped bollocks at least shows some consistency


I am trying! Hence the new laptop with windows 7. In fact I've just been playing around with some scanned slides with Windows Photo Gallery and I can see how with tweaking one thing could lead to another and one could easily succumb to the slippery slope....

In reply to Robert Durran:


LOL


Download the Lightroom trial and have a look. It takes some learning and discipline - especially with photo folder organisation/planning.

To help, after import I auto-rename all my images with a four digit YearMonth prefix (Lightroom does this batch wise in seconds using date meta data):

e.g: March 2014 images get a 1403 prefix

This can be important is your camera 'goes round the clock' on image file naming.

In reply to ChrisJD:
Brilliant! That's just solved a problem for me: given an image file which is no longer in its import directory and may not have its EXIF data intact, when did I take it - ie which directory do I need to dive into to re-edit it? Prefixing the filename with the date sorts that out nicely.

In reply to telemark:

To be honest, I think many businesses have been filing electronic data by 'reverse date prefix' for decades. I know ours has, so assumed most others did too. It's definitely the easiest solution to that particular problem.

In reply to telemark:
Glad to help. Also helps if you use a brands of cameras each with different file naming approaches and image numbering sequences

I tried out six figure YYMMDD for a while, but it just looks bit cumbersome.

(All my digital images are post 2000 and I don't expect to see 2100, so YY enough for me)

In reply to Fraser:

Agreed - I knew the theory, just needed prompting to implement it in Lightroom.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Well, there's plenty of us already at the bottom, so at least it'll be a soft landing...

In reply to Solaris:


I know. I look at the UKC top ten photos.

In reply to LukeO:


Really? Mine was

In reply to LukeO:

....... I would get Lightroom. It's perfect for cataloging.

.....

Anyone have any views on Lightroom vs Elements Organiser for cataloguing? Or are they the same thing under the hood?

In reply to RichardMc:

I've had a look at Elements Organiser and it looks like a very slimmed down version of Lightroom - didn't look tempting to me. The major problem is that Elements isn't a RAW editor/processor, and I'm not keen on being restricted to jpg - especially with the 5d mk3, whose jpgs seem soft.

I use 80% Lightroom, 15% Nik Efex Suite (e.g. B&W, selective noise/sharpening) and 5% Elements for the odd panorama with photomerge or basic layers work.

L

In reply to ChrisJD:


Ok, so I downloaded the trial. However, I don't seem to be able to do what I actually want to do (and used to be able to do in Photo Gallery),. Although I can shuffle photos in a folder around by clicking and dragging, I cannot then rename them numerically in that order (eg Climbing 1, Climbing 2,Climbing 3 etc.) so that when I open the folder in Photo Gallery or Picasa I can sort them by their new name and have them in the order I want. I gave up before shouting at my computer had progressed to actual violence.

In reply to Robert Durran:
In Library View, select the shots you want to rename, then click on Library>Rename Photos. How easy do you want it to be?


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:


Yes, but it seems to number them in the order they were in before I shuffled them. ie they are not actually numbered in the order I want.

Anyway, I've now discovered I can do exactly what I want to do in Picasa, so I'll stick with that (I use Picasa for slideshows anyway because it's possible to fill the screen with the pictures without anything else on it and then change pictures when I want to do so with the arrow keys).

Success!

In reply to Robert Durran:

Odd, I tried before posting - moving and then renaming/numbering and the ordering stuck.

I think there used to be issues with Picassa downsizing images, I assume this is no longer the case?


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:


The ordering seemed to stick in Lightroom, but not when I went back to Photo Gallery or Picasa. Since I am used to filing in Windows and doing slide shows in Picasa I'll stick with what I know. Can't face the stress of getting used to anything new just now........I did try to do a slide show in Lightroom, but couldn't make it fill the screen - anyway, now safely uninstalled (I think....).

In reply to Robert Durran:

Sounds like a sensible decision in the circumstances, but see you later, maybe

In reply to Solaris:


Yes, once I've recovered from my current overdose of computer stress, I might have another look at Lightroom.

In reply to Robert Durran:
Picasa is a terrible program to use and manage large libraries of images (I used it a lot).

Lightroom is the solution for photographers.

There are twelve basic different ways to order photos in Lightroom Library Grid (One click will reorder them, from toolbar in GRID Views Press T to show/hide toolbar), plus custom order and drag and drop, plus filters of every different flavor possible. It isn't hard.

But you need to be at peace with computers, not hate them.

In reply to ChrisJD:


I don't manage my photos at all with Picasa; I have only used it for actually doing slide shows and now for reordering photos by dragging and dropping. I shall continue in the meantime to do everything else with Windows Photo Gallery (with Photo Gallery it is impossible to view photos using the whole screen without other stuff appearing on it and I didn't invest in a TV with a huge screen in order not to use all of it!)


I'm sure it may well be if you put the effort in. However, it seemed useless for what I was trying to do - and even if I was mistaken and it is possible to make the order stick in Picasa, the actual sorting by dragging and dropping was far more awkward in lightroom because fewer thumbnails were visible at any one time.


No, I shall always hate them. As a mathematician used to succeeding or failing by my own powers of reasoning, I find the whole process of second guessing arbitrary sequences of clicks thought up by someone at Microsoft or Adobe tedious, intellectually dull and above all apoplexy inducing.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Lose the apoplexy, and do a beginners weekend course In how to manage your images?

http://www.stills.org/courses/weekend-workshop/digital-image-editing-and-wo...

In reply to dek:


Sacrifice a prime June climbing weekend for something that sounds less fun than drinking stale vomit? No thanks.

But thanks for the thought anyway....

In reply to Robert Durran:



And you struggled in Lightroom, to sort images and resize thumbnails with a slider - now that is hilarious

I suppose, some people are clearly just too clever.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Of course Lightroom can do all of those things. But not in quite the ways that you were trying them, which are products of your (entirely open) lack of mateyness with modern computers and software systems.

If picassa does what you need it to do without sweat, it's obviously the right solution.

If you ever need to do anything more substantial/sophisticated, then I'm sure you'll apply your mind as a mathematician would, by starting with first principles of computing and quickly working through the various levels of logic and abstraction until you have Lightroom mastered in an afternoon. But, with the sun shining, that is a task for a different day...

In reply to ChrisJD:


No, I did manage to do it. I just found Picasa much better (smaller thumbnails, more on the screen).

In reply to hamsforlegs:


Yes. I am happy now!


I doubt I would get to Lightroom in an afternoon starting with the fundamental principles of information theory and quantum mechanics (even though that is the only level at which I find computers in any way intellectually stimulating).

In reply to Robert Durran:

'smaller thumbnails, more on the screen'

In Library, View then Decrease Grid Size.

In reply to Robert Durran:


You can get up to 90 images on a 15" screen in Lightroom - (or as few as 2) - sounds like you didn't find the slider,


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:


216 on a 30" monitor

In reply to Chris Craggs:


I found the slider (and felt quite pleased with myself), but all the pictures were in quite a small window in the middle of the screen (and I couldn't make it any bigger) so there weren't many of them. Is there a way of making the window bigger? (Not that I care anymore!).

Generally the whole screen seemed very cluttered with not much visible at any one time.

In reply to Robert Durran:
On my screen you can get up to 128. At the top and bottom of the screen and at both sides there is a single arrow pointing off the screen in the centre. If you click on that the associated panel will disappear.

You could, of course, try reading an instruction book http://www.amazon.co.uk/Adobe-Photoshop-Lightroom-Book-Photographers/dp/032... .

By the way, I would have thought that the people who programmed Lightroom found that an intellectually satisfying process, incorporating elements of human interface, mathematical algorithms for efficient image manipulation and aesthetics.

In reply to John2:


And that is just the sort of arbitary unintuitive thing that makes my interactions with almost anything on a computer result in a violent apoplectic fit.


£28!!! Sod that!


Yes, there are many fascinating things about computers at a theoretical and no doubt programming level. It is just at the user level that they are at very best incredibly dull (don't get me wrong - they are useful tools, but tools which are generally absolutely infuriating to learn how to use).

In reply to Robert Durran:

'£28!!! Sod that!'
How much did you spend on your camera? And you object to spending a further £28 learning how to get the best out of it.

'don't get me wrong - they are useful tools, but tools which are generally absolutely infuriating to learn how to use'
Well maybe you'd find them less infuriating if you read the occasional book, rather than trying to second-guess the designers.

In reply to John2:


Couple of the guys involved in developing LR:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adobe_Photoshop_Lightroom
http://www.schewephoto.com/resume.html
http://photoshophalloffame.com/inductees/mark-hamburg/

In reply to John2:


If at some point in the future I find the time, inclination and the resolve (which I simply don't have at the moment) to get into Lightroom, I would certainly buy the book. I spent £640 on my new camera and was quite happy to pay another £20 for an excellent book on its use - at the moment there is more than enough just with the camera to get to grips with!



I was making a more general comment about computer use (for example, even in Picasa I can never remember which menu to go to every time I want to rename a set of photos and have to use trial and error because the menus seem so arbitrary and unintuitive).

I think it is just the way my mind works - I never know which way to turn a screwdriver (another completely arbitrary convention). Same with taps if I make the mistake of stopping to think.

Mathematics is totally different. Solving a mathematics problem is discovering something fundamental about the cosmos, reading the very "mind of God", an altogether deeper and infinitely more interesting endeavour than reading the mind of a Microsoft employee.

In reply to Robert Durran:

You are Marvin and I claim my £5.

In reply to ChrisJD:


Who's Marvin?

In reply to Robert Durran:

I'll leave you to work that out - task for the day.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I haven't read the thread so I will probably repeat.

Adobe Lightroom is good, versatile and simple to use. I use it at work (photography forms a substantial part of my job) and it does all I want it to without fuss.

If you just want to sort and rename files you can use this very simple and free prog:
http://www.bulkrenameutility.co.uk/Main_Intro.php

In reply to Robert Durran:

Out of interest, how good are you at adding up restaurant bills in your head? I can recall at least two occasions when I ate out with people with first-class degrees in mathematics who were quite incapable of calculating their own portion of the bill. One of them told me scornfully, 'That's not mathematics, that's arithmetic'.

In reply to ChrisJD:


'That's not a knife....THAT is a knife!'

In reply to Robert Durran:


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_the_Paranoid_Android

In reply to John2:

Out of interest, how good are you at adding up restaurant bills in your head? I can recall at least two occasions when I ate out with people with first-class degrees in mathematics who were quite incapable of calculating their own portion of the bill. One of them told me scornfully, 'That's not mathematics, that's arithmetic'.

I think his arithmetic will be truly mental.

In reply to John2:

Pretty average (unless the numbers have some nice coincidental properties allowing the application of some mathematics)


Some truth in that. Working out 76.3^2 - 23.7^2 using a long multiplication algorithm on paper is arithmetic, but seeing how to apply an algebraic identity to do it in a few seconds in your head involves some mathematics.

In reply to dek:


Well that makes achange from that cool guy in "The Big Bang theory".

In reply to Robert Durran:


And seeing how such an expression could arise on a restaurant bill involves some imagination.

In reply to dek:


'According to Douglas Adams, "Marvin came from Andrew Marshall.[3] He's another comedy writer, and he's exactly like that." (Indeed, in an early draft of Hitchhiker's, the robot was called Marshall.'

Christ. Lucky escape for my childhood self.

In reply to planetmarshall:


But who cares about daily reality when you can be doing mathematics!

In reply to planetmarshall:


Funnily enough I found the Hitchhikers Guide to The Galaxy utterly dull unfunny; the sort of banal stuff any intelligent ten year old might write if they had nothing better to do.

In reply to Robert Durran:


you are rapidly moving to the top of the list of people on UKC i'd like to have a beer with...

being that i work in IT and have a mental age of about 12 i'm sure we'd have a great time

BTW, have you tried using a MAC? people with superior intellects rave about them

In reply to rallymania:


People with really superior intellects would have little use for a computer whatever brand it was, surely.

In reply to rallymania:


Mac's are for people who 'hate' compooters, photographers love their simplicity.

In reply to rallymania:


I don't have a superior intellect, just perhaps a slightly f***** up one.

Anyway, having just gone through computer hell for the last three weeks (I've been so stressed and run down by lack of sleep that I've made no progress at all on my redpoint project at Ratho in that time, let alone done any winter climbing) getting more or less to the point with my new laptop where I was with my old one before it slowed down beyond usefulness, I have absolutely no intention of getting a new computer again in the foreseeable future.

In reply to planetmarshall:


Certainly one of the great attractions of mathematics is that the only technology it requires familiarity with is a pencil sharpener (and even they can be annoying whern they keep breaking the lead).

In reply to Chris Craggs:


I'm getting 78 on Picasa on my laptop, so that's not too bad

In reply to Robert Durran:


I don't think it matters how many images you can show in Picasa, it'll always be really bad.

In reply to Removed User:


Well, it allows me to sort my photos into the order I want very easily and to show slideshows exactly the way I want, and that is all I want it to do, so if it is crap for other things it doesn't bother me in the slightest.