/ Pistorius trial

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ClimberEd - on 14 Mar 2014
It seem there has been significant contamination of the evidence

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/oscar-pistorius/10698977/Oscar-Pistorius-murder-trial-Poli...

Can anyone really believe that he made several shots through a bathroom door because he thought it was an intruder?!?

Best guess is he will get off on a technicality (i.e. lack of evidence.)

C*&t.
Ban1 - on 14 Mar 2014
In reply to ClimberEd:

I sense it will become as infamous as the OJ trail
gethin_allen on 14 Mar 2014
In reply to ClimberEd:

I was trying to work out what was going on with the cricket bat legs on or off thing as at first he said he was on his stumps and that's why he was scared and went for thegun. But the defense were trying to convince the judge that he was wearing his legs when he was breaking the door open with the cricket bat.
highclimber - on 14 Mar 2014
In reply to gethin_allen:

I think they were arguing that the marks on the door could have been caused by his prosthetics and not the bat.
ClimberEd - on 14 Mar 2014
In reply to gethin_allen:

and then. last thing I read, it was being proven he was on his stumps whilst bashing the door with a cricket bat.

The whole thing is a cluster f*ck - however I simply cannot buy into the someone shooting a gun through a door as anything but murder.

gethin_allen on 14 Mar 2014
In reply to ClimberEd:

At a minimum it would be manslaughter I guess but why would you just straight out shoot through the door without shouting first? Especially if you are in a vulnerable position.
gethin_allen on 14 Mar 2014
In reply to ClimberEd:

The whole being Ill in court every time they show a bloody image thing strikes me as hamming it up a bit, just want someone to shout "give human Oscar".
abseil on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to ClimberEd:
> Can anyone really believe that he made several shots through a bathroom door because he thought it was an intruder?!?

Yes, I was wondering about that. I try to picture it in the Abseil residence - I own a gun, I hear noises in the night, I then fire several shots through a bathroom door [1] without it ever occurring to me that it might be Mrs Abseil in the bathroom, and [2] without checking the bedroom first to check if Mrs Abseil was still in bed or not. [1] + [2] seem very implausible to me.
Post edited at 00:05
The New NickB - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to gethin_allen:

> At a minimum it would be manslaughter I guess but why would you just straight out shoot through the door without shouting first? Especially if you are in a vulnerable position.

It is a country with much more violent crime than the UK, "normal" reactions to that threat is very different to what we are used to. I believe the defence are suggesting Pistorius' vulnerability makes such actions more understandable.

I don't want to prejudge the outcome.
aln - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to The New NickB:

> It is a country with much more violent crime than the UK, "normal" reactions to that threat is very different to what we are used to.

Really? SA is so violent that everyone sleeps with a gun under their pillow and a noise in the night means immediately jumping out of bed and firing the gun through doors?
Gordon Stainforth - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to ClimberEd:

> and then. last thing I read, it was being proven he was on his stumps whilst bashing the door with a cricket bat.

> The whole thing is a cluster f*ck - however I simply cannot buy into the someone shooting a gun through a door as anything but murder.

That's right. It's murder whatever, whoever. He has to prove that he was under real threat to his life for it to be otherwise. He also has to explain how this intruder did this stupid thing of breaking into his house and getting him/herself trapped in Pistorius's bathroom i.e. the holiest of holies in terms of security in his whole house: the loo, within the bathroom suite, within the bedroom, within the high-security house, within the fortified stronghold fence of a world famous Olympic athlete who already has a reputation as a trigger-happy gun-owner.

Pull the other one. My sympathies are 101 per cent on the side of that beautiful girl's family.
The New NickB - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to aln:

Murder rate is about 40 times that of the UK, even that is half what it was 20 years ago. Other violent crime rates are similarly high. As a consequence they do have a very different attitude to personal security.
Gordon Stainforth - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to The New NickB:

So there's a mysterious intruder who's somehow managed to get into the loo within the inner sanctum of your bedroom suite, and locked themselves in, and presumably refuses to answer when you tell them you've got a gun pointed at the door and ask them to come out with your hands above their head or I'll shoot … and they presumably don't answer … and then you forget that little basic detail, which you presumably noticed earlier, that your beautiful girlfriend is no longer in your bed, so it might just possibly be her in there … so you just open up on that loo door with a high-velocity weapon.

I sincerely hope the guy rots in hell.
The New NickB - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I'm not commenting on the trial, I really don't know enough about the detail of the case, I suspect I'm not alone. I am simply stating that the culture of self defence is very different in South Africa, in part due to an extremely high crime rate.
ena sharples - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to ClimberEd:

think he would sleep easier in the long run if he just 'fessed up, but this seems unlikely.
Kipper - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to aln:
> Really? SA is so violent that everyone sleeps with a gun under their pillow and a noise in the night means immediately jumping out of bed and firing the gun through doors?

Pretty much the case. (I lived there, in 'safer' days, and Pistorius is an almer mater of my school - the pictures have been taken down I believe).
Post edited at 01:58
Kimono - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> So there's a mysterious intruder who's somehow managed to get into the loo within the inner sanctum of your bedroom suite, and locked themselves in, and presumably refuses to answer when you tell them you've got a gun pointed at the door and ask them to come out with your hands above their head or I'll shoot … and they presumably don't answer … and then you forget that little basic detail, which you presumably noticed earlier, that your beautiful girlfriend is no longer in your bed, so it might just possibly be her in there … so you just open up on that loo door with a high-velocity weapon.

Says the man who lives in a safe country.
I live in a potentially dangerous country and i can assure you that things are very very different when you think that you could easily be murdered in the night by thieves.
The usual rules do not apply

FactorXXX - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to Kimono:

I live in a potentially dangerous country and i can assure you that things are very very different when you think that you could easily be murdered in the night by thieves.
The usual rules do not apply


Do you honestly think Pistorius lived in such an environment?


Siward on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to FactorXXX:

I do wonder about Pistorius's predilection for firearms. He's also charged with two counts of discharging a firearm in public- once in a restaurant under a table (oops! easy mistake) and another time through a car sunroof when he was stopped by a cop.

He denies both incidents and one can see why- if they happened it makes dear Oscar look more than a little unhinged.
CrushUnit - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to FactorXXX:

Do you think these people go and rob the slums? No they go to where the money is. I won't comment on the trail, Ill wait for the jury's verdict on his guilt.

Having a few South African friends I am often left speechless by their tales of violent robbery (normally some rape and murder in there as well) it really is hard to understand how much worse it is than here.
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highclimber - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to CrushUnit:

Not unlike the Diwani case a few years back that's still ongoing..


> Having a few South African friends I am often left speechless by their tales of violent robbery (normally some rape and murder in there as well)
Enty - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to FactorXXX:

>

> Do you honestly think Pistorius lived in such an environment?

I did a cycling tour for some wealthy South Africans a few years ago. One of them who had a Jeweller's shop lived in a house like Fort Knox yet he'd still been attacked in the night more times than he could remember.

E
andymac - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to ClimberEd:

Just hope that justice is done.

If he's guilty he should face the music.

The most expensive legal teams ,available to those who can afford them ,should not have any bearing or superior influence upon the outcomes of these cases.

pff - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to ClimberEd:
I suppose the thing about being on stumps or not, also says something about the panic he was meant to have been in. If he was scared he wouldnt have time to go and put on the leg. But if you wanted to attack someone and terrify them , wouldnt you make yourself as tall as you can be?
Timmd on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to pff:
It could depend on how urgently you want to shoot them I guess?

You could want to shoot them while they're in there so they can't come out and harm you ( thinking they're an intruder that is)?
Post edited at 11:06
Jim C - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to CrushUnit:

> Do you think these people go and rob the slums? No they go to where the money is. I won't comment on the trail, Ill wait for the jury's verdict on his guilt.

Long wait , no Jury , so the prosecution is playing to a ' court wise' judge, not court novices.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial-no-jury-for-athlete-just-a-sing...
Jim C - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to CrushUnit:

Ill wait for the jury's verdict on his guilt.

Trial by jury was abolished in South Africa under apartheid in 1969.



Kimono - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to FactorXXX:

> I live in a potentially dangerous country and i can assure you that things are very very different when you think that you could easily be murdered in the night by thieves.

> The usual rules do not apply

> Do you honestly think Pistorius lived in such an environment?

i think you probably know very little about living in South Africa.
The whole place is 'such an environment'. The richer you are, the more of a target you are. Exactly the same where i live and so people can be very edgy with firearms here
Blizzard - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to ClimberEd:

Its all a farce. There is no justice is South Africa.

You wake up, your girlfriend is not besides you in bed, but someone is in the bathroom. I wonder who that could possibly be? My girlfriend? Door is locked, so I'd better shoot whoever it could possibly be anyway.

Does it need to get to court? That I don't understand either.
David Martin - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to CrushUnit:

> Do you think these people go and rob the slums?

Well, its possible SAs high murder rate actually includes the slum murder rate, and the actual chance of Mr. White Middle Class living in a gated secure compound is actually somewhat lower than they would like you to believe.

My personal, non-expert opinion is roid-rage got the better of him. Seems the easier option would be to fess up and be done with it. At least then there's a chance of salvaging some dignity - there's no doubt he shot her afterall.

IainRUK - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to David Martin:

> Well, its possible SAs high murder rate actually includes the slum murder rate, and the actual chance of Mr. White Middle Class living in a gated secure compound is actually somewhat lower than they would like you to believe.

I don't think thats true.. my brother worked out there and there were plenty of stories of car jackings, violent robberies.. especially of the old rich white families who are often still detested for what they did..

It may be lower but life is still very cheap.

For what its worth, I agree with you on the last point.
Timmd on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to Blizzard:
> Its all a farce. There is no justice is South Africa.

> You wake up, your girlfriend is not besides you in bed, but someone is in the bathroom. I wonder who that could possibly be? My girlfriend? Door is locked, so I'd better shoot whoever it could possibly be anyway.

> Does it need to get to court? That I don't understand either.

I've been wondering about the same points.
Post edited at 15:41
redsonja - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to Timmd:

me too. its like a charade
IainRUK - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to Timmd:

what do you mean?

He's being tried.. he may get life in prison.. he's likely to be found guilty?

You think a person has no right to a trial if they look like they will be found guilty?
Timmd on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to IainRUK:
> You think a person has no right to a trial if they look like they will be found guilty?

No, I don't think that at all, it's more there hasn't been anything (released at least) about other people in the grounds or in the house to suggest it was somebody else, so I'm wondering how it could possibly have been anybody else.

Of course he deserves a fair trail, though, I think it's essential that this applies to everybody.
Post edited at 16:29
Dave Perry - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to ClimberEd:

South Africa is not a safe place to live There are different rules like Kimono says..

It doesn't matter whether you are black or white, rich or poor.

My brother lived there. Neither rich nor poor. He once caught a number of guys breaking into his car. He shot three of them - because they drew a gun/s and started firing at him.

A few years later in 2006 I flew to Cape Town to attend his funeral. He'd been carjacked and shot dead. Unfortunately on that day my brother decided to leave his gun at home. It was dark and the killers didn't notice his vehicle had a company logo all over it. They dumped the vehicle as soon as it got light as they'd be unable to sell it on or, as is common break it for spares.

The police are not anywhere near as competent as ours. In fact they are F*****g useless. They apparently went over the vehicle he was in with a 'fine toothcomb' to get the forensics they needed. I was asked to sign for 2 bags containing, all the vehicle contents and my brothers clothing. When I got in the vehicle I noticed my brothers wallet hidden behind the sun visor. The police didn't even find it!!! I collected the car a few days after he'd been killed and later noticed a smell in the car. Looking in the boot I found the blood covered shirt he'd been shot in. The police didn't even bag it and didn't even tell me in was in the boot.

There are areas of Cape Town where you are strongly advised NOT to travel. One of these places is the road from the airport as it passes, "a township', a well known place for vehicle hijackings. There are all sorts of ruses to stop vehicles. Waiting at traffic lights for red; 'collapsing in the road feigning an accident' - "Don't whatever you do stop Dave. Just keep going even if it means running them over", I was advised; placing objects in the road, or in my brother's case wating in bushes next to a lay-by.

Although I was only there for a few days, I met two people who'd been carjacked and met a friend of my sister in law, who'd had her husband shot the year before. There were two carjackings during the few days I was there.

I'm sure there are safe places in south africa but the cities aren't them!!
ClimberEd - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to Dave Perry:

Thanks Dave.

I'm sorry to hear about your brother, a sad story.
Blizzard - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to Dave Perry:

Why would anyone want to live in SA? (knowing what their cities are like) The world is a big place, you could surely find somewhere better, in fact Africa is a big continent....
Blizzard - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to all:

He shot his girlfriend dead, and no one else was involved. A trial? Why?
IainRUK - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to Blizzard:

> A trial? Why?

Are you for real?

A father in the US shot his son dead?
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-26587350
No charges..

EVERYONE has the right to a fair trial..
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Blizzard - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to IainRUK:
Aye, I am for real.

Completely different circumstances in your cited case.

You think P is innocent then, and it was an accident? ( I find that incredably hard to believe)

As for fair trials, I am unsure they exist, what with media circus's as they are, and my own experiences of justice in the UK, highlighted just how little justice there is in life. ( I won't detail the incident, but all I will say is that I was innocent, yet now I have a criminal record)
Post edited at 20:35
IainRUK - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to Blizzard:

> Aye, I am for real.

> Completely different circumstances in your cited case.

Exactly, hence they decided not to prosecute. In this case the prosecution believe he stands a good chance of being found guilty..




> You think P is innocent then, and it was an accident? ( I find that incredably hard to believe)

> As for fair trials, I am unsure they exist, what with media circus's as they are, and my own experiences of justice in the UK, highlighted just how little justice there is in life. ( I won't detail the incident, but all I will say is that I was innocent, yet now I have a criminal record)

Right when did I say I think he was innocent?

How does that in any way, even in the slightest, mean he should not have a fair trial..

If you read what I've said, I've said I do suspect it was roid rage.. and I do expect he'll get done for murder.

However that in no way takes away his right to a trial.
Blizzard - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to IainRUK:
I missed the bit you said. Have you ever been in court?

Just to add: What about the men on death row; there are/have been 120 innocent men, awaiting death ( DNA testing proved their innocence) What justice have they ever had?

My personal perspective on this matter is simply quite different to yours.
Post edited at 21:07
IainRUK - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to Blizzard:

I'm not saying its perfect.. but i'd rather some trial than just being locked up for life..

I do think we'll see some miscarriages, hence why I'm anti death penalty but we do see a lot of acquittals.

These are the conviction rates:

"Juries overall appear efficient and effective," the report said, reaching a verdict by deliberation on 89% of charges. Juries convict on 64% of all charges. Less than 1% of sworn juries are discharged. The highest conviction rates are for making indecent photographs of children (89%), causing death by dangerous driving (84%), falsification (79%), murder (76%) drugs (74%) and theft (70%). Among the lowest are threats to kill (36%), attempted murder (47%) and manslaughter (48%).

blackcat on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth: From everything ive read and heard on the news,and lets not forget no one else was there except pistorius and reeva,witnesses heard shouting,thats the argument,then the banging possibly him trying to smash down the door with baseball bat after shes locked herself in then the shots when his head has completly gone firing into the door,maybe he thought shed be stood behind the wall and he fired into the door to force it open,who knows,but i dont buy his bollox about an intruder.

Blue Straggler - on 15 Mar 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> My sympathies are 101 per cent on the side of that beautiful girl's family.

Would your sympathies lie elsewhere were she not:
beautiful;
a girl;
part of a family ??

Timmd on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to Blue Straggler:
> Would your sympathies lie elsewhere were she not:

> beautiful;

> a girl;

> part of a family ??

I think it's probably human nature to think about something positive about a murdered person, whether it's them being attractive or handsome, or a lovely person, or just innocent in their nature, it doesn't need to mean they'd actually see it as any less tragic if this weren't the case.

Gordon's sympathies would have to lie elsewhere if she wasn't part of a family because they wouldn't exist. (:-))
Post edited at 02:43
FactorXXX - on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to Kimono:

i think you probably know very little about living in South Africa.
The whole place is 'such an environment'. The richer you are, the more of a target you are. Exactly the same where i live and so people can be very edgy with firearms here


I've climbed and travelled extensively in South Africa.
I totally agree with you other contributors that people with a better life style will be targeted and sometimes quite ruthlessly.
However, the point I was trying to make, was that the likes of Pistorius, will have extra, extra security and that should render the chance of this sort of incident actually hapening negligible.
Jim C - on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

> I'm not saying its perfect.. but i'd rather some trial than just being locked up for life..
> "Juries overall appear efficient and effective," the report said, reaching a verdict by deliberation on 89% of charges.......

But of course Iain there IS no jury for this trial, just a woman Judge. So why is this relevant ?

( or have I come in late without reading the full thread, if so apologies, and please bring me up to speed)


Kimono - on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to FactorXXX:



> I totally agree with you other contributors that people with a better life style will be targeted and sometimes quite ruthlessly.

> However, the point I was trying to make, was that the likes of Pistorius, will have extra, extra security and that should render the chance of this sort of incident actually hapening negligible.

And if you think that extra extra security counter for much then i repeat, you do not understand what these countries are like.
The more the security, the more the danger.
The usual rules do NOT apply
FactorXXX - on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to Kimono:

No, have to disagree.
The likes of Pistorius, will be in the mind set that their security is good enough to render random attacks like this impossible.
That's precisely why they pay a lot of money to live in expensive and exclusive enclaves.

PS, have been to South Africa, so have got an inkling of what's going on.
IainRUK - on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to Jim C:

sort of.. it was about conviction from trials.. I used uk, so jury..
IainRUK - on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to FactorXXX:

> No, have to disagree.

> The likes of Pistorius, will be in the mind set that their security is good enough to render random attacks like this impossible.

> That's precisely why they pay a lot of money to live in expensive and exclusive enclaves.

> PS, have been to South Africa, so have got an inkling of what's going on.

are you for real? I think he is guilty, but rich white families in SA DO fear this.. your argument is ludicrous.
Kimono - on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to FactorXXX:



> PS, have been to South Africa, so have got an inkling of what's going on.

An inkling is indeed what you have.
I have lived in these conditions for the last 4 years…i have a little more than an inkling.

That said, I'm still not convinced that he's anything but guilty!
Jim C - on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

> sort of.. it was about conviction from trials.. I used uk, so jury..

I would expect a prosecution would be presented very differently in a Judge only trial. ( and the conviction results to be less swayed by emotion, and arguably also very different to Jury prosecutions / convictions as well. )

Perhaps with the exception to a high profile televised trial, where the prosecutor MAY have an extra agenda , of trying to impress others to boost his/ her own reputation.

A judge should not be in the least not interested in the amateur dramatics that you get in Jury trials . ( which I accept can sway verdicts)
Jim C - on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to Kimono:
> An inkling is indeed what you have.
> I have lived in these conditions for the last 4 years…i have a little more than an inkling.
> That said, I'm still not convinced that he's anything but guilty!

I have not lived there, but have resisted asking my wife's relations about this who have been over there for many years.
( in fact since they took their mining skills abroad, when the UK pits were closed, so there a long time)

They sent the kids back here to be educated because of the dangers they perceived so they know what the dangers were , and judged them too risky. They are still there so know what it is like now.

I have wondered what their view on this is. They are on Facebook , so we do chat regularly, but not specifically about this, but they do tell us what it is like to live there.
My ex boss also came back, again because of the risks, they loved the lifestyle otherwise.

So for now , I will go on my gut feeling and the evidence I hear, and that is saying, for the moment , guilty
(even taking into account that I do understand to an extent, that people living there are on a heightened sense of alert to danger. )
Post edited at 14:54
FactorXXX - on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

but rich white families in SA DO fear this.. your argument is ludicrous.

Yes, of course they fear it and that's why the very rich have security measures to all but ensure their safety.
It's the less rich who can't afford security that are the ones at real risk and therefore the ones who live in real fear.
FactorXXX - on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to Kimono:

I have lived in these conditions for the last 4 years…i have a little more than an inkling.

I'm guessing that you aren't rich enough to implement security measures to almost guarantee your safety then?

It's not the very rich with rigid security measures that are the obvious target of violent crime, it's the ones who have got something worth stealing, but don't have such security.
If you were a criminal, which would you choose?
IainRUK - on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to FactorXXX:

> but rich white families in SA DO fear this.. your argument is ludicrous.

> Yes, of course they fear it and that's why the very rich have security measures to all but ensure their safety.

> It's the less rich who can't afford security that are the ones at real risk and therefore the ones who live in real fear.

It really doesn't..

My brothers ex's family were robbed at gun point a number of times, held up driving through their gates etc... you speak from a position of ZERO experience...
IainRUK - on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to FactorXXX:

> I have lived in these conditions for the last 4 years…i have a little more than an inkling.

So what experience have you got of SA to suggest it all but guarantees safety?


IainRUK - on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to FactorXXX:

> I have lived in these conditions for the last 4 years…i have a little more than an inkling.

> I'm guessing that you aren't rich enough to implement security measures to almost guarantee your safety then?

> It's not the very rich with rigid security measures that are the obvious target of violent crime, it's the ones who have got something worth stealing, but don't have such security.

> If you were a criminal, which would you choose?

The very rich have very much more money...
FactorXXX - on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

My brothers ex's family were robbed at gun point a number of times, held up driving through their gates etc... you speak from a position of ZERO experience...

That wasn't in their house though was it?
The very fact that they were held up outside of it indicates that their house was secure.
IainRUK - on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to FactorXXX:

yes.. in their house as well..

Another time the mother drove in to find a guy running out of her front door holding a gun she just reversed out quick...

They were multi millionaires..

You still have cleaning staff, workers who have access.. people do get in. You can say it doesnt happen all you want. It does.
Kimono - on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to IainRUK:

i have no experience of SA…but i have a lot more experience of living in violent, dangerous countries than most people on here seem to.
It doesn't seem to stop them spouting shite though

IainRUK - on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to Kimono:

Some people have a UK centric view..

friends here don't get why I have no interest in getting a gun.. 'what about protecting your family'.. yet the stats clearly show there's less chance of them getting killed by a robber than shooting themselves..

.. but its in the US psyche now, especially in the southern states.. there's no logic to it.

We see and hear of accidents all the time, even up in NJ, of mistaken shootings or angry arguments getting out of hand..

We just don't have the same attitude in the UK thankfully.. and I dont think we understand how quick some people are to grab a gun and shoot. A TX father just shot and killed a 16 year old lad who his daughter had let in for some rumpy pumpy..

As said I still think Pistorius knew it was her, but thats for the trial to decide.
Dave Perry - on 16 Mar 2014
In reply to FactorXXX:

So you're rich. How will that help you when your nice big shiny Cadillac Bullcrusher, XJ4X 4 X 4, (with alloy wheels), pulls up at a set of traffic lights on red. Two or three guys run into the road and go to both sides of the car, pointing guns at you, pulling at the doors, shouting and screaming for you to get out.

Do you:-

a) tell them they are breaking the law and you'll report them to the police?
b) immediately drive off - whilst still on red and hope you don't crash into another car and they do not shoot and kill you through the windows?
c) pull your gun out and hope you are a better shot than they are?
d) Shit yourself and do what they say.
e) Give them a gob full and hope they get second thoughts.

In Cape Town and the other cities i've been to all of the better homes, and many of the ordinary ones like my brother lived in, are as you know well guarded. Barbed wire, signs saying, "this building is patrolled by armed guards"; "beware of Dogs"; Beware of Electric fences and so on.

How come these places still get done over?? (Well according to my niece, nephew, & sister in law who still live there)

I don't think you have a clue!!

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