UKC

Evening all,

Just been reading a few links on Facebook and Twitter and it got me thinking.

Which of you literally just bought some kit and taught yourselves how to ski?

How did it go?

In reply to AdCo82:

I didn't literally buy gear and teach myself but I've skied a lot and had very few lessons - maybe about four in my life. I wouldn't recommend it - there's a definite "self taught climber" skiing style and it isn't pretty. Sure - if you really ski a lot you'll eventually polish away the worst of it but a few lessons early on and regular ones spaced through your skiing are probably a good idea.

Having said that, don't obsess with style. If you're having fun and can get down what you want to get down without butchering it then you're doing it right.

In reply to AdCo82:

Two keys: (a) go with a mate who's better than you and accept his/ her advice, (b) go lots.

In reply to AdCo82:

Pretty much. Had a few lessons as a kid then bought touring kit 20+ years later.

Doubtless I would have been quicker in the long run getting lessons but it was a lot of fun working it out myself. I've spent a lot of time thinking very hard about what I was doing and watching other skiers both in the flesh and on videos.

Probably got lots of bad habits though.

In reply to AdCo82:


This is how I learnt originally. Well, similar - I went with mates who could ski.

I have since had lessons.

I would recommend the lessons. I learnt more in 2 weeks of lessons than in all my previous skiing put together. Skiing with good technique is infinitely more pleasurable / enjoyable / efficient than 'just getting down' something.

Mates' advice is always well intentioned but often not that good. For example 'lean down the slope' is complete nonsense for skiing properly but is probably the most spouted 'mate advice' in the world. Maybe second behind 'lean forward on the front of your boots'.

Get as many lessons, with as small a ratio between instructor and student, as you can afford.

In reply to AdCo82:

I had lessons after I began to realise that skiing isn't 'convergent' in the way that climbing is. If you climb enough, eventually you will get on an E4 and eventually you'll get up one. You will converge on the solution, regardless of lessons, which merely speed the process up.

You could go skiing every day for the rest of your life and still end up looking like a peacock on a Spacehopper

In reply to AdCo82:

I didn't have any formal lessons but a friend who is a moderately good skier did give me some pointers, enough to get me on some red routes on my 4th day skiing.

In reply to Jonny2vests:

Wish I thought that...



Nicely put

In reply to AdCo82:

I taught myself to snowboard

I bought a 2nd hand snowboard at the ski resort and then spent 2 days going up and down the beginners slope until I could turn both ways and get down without falling over.

Not sure I would like to try that with skiing though - skiing takes much longer to become proficient with, so unless you have lots of time to teach yourself to ski, get lessons

In reply to Edradour:



I have 3 kids who can ski because I taught them. Style-wise, the best of them is better than me, by miles, but not because of anything I taught her as far as I can see; she's a good skier because she's skied a fair bit, and because she enjoys it. As soon as I'd shown her how to parallel she was off, on her own, with her friends. From there on she was picking up how to do it for herself, without even noticing.

For myself, I started skiing at about the age of 14, on family skiing holidays in the Alps in the early 80s. It took me a long time to get moving because my boots always hurt, because they were hire boots and I have odd-shaped feet that they didn't fit properly, and because I wasted too much valuable time standing around in rubbish ski-school lessons watching the instructor showing off to the prettiest girls in the class. I was really bad until on the last 3 days of the last of my family's skiing holidays I took myself out of the group and taught myself how to parallel. That was when it clicked--and it really was a click. One minute I was still flailing around cursing, the next I could actually ski. It was half way down a Black run on Cresta d'Arp at Courmayeur

People make too much of the complexity of learning to ski. Of course there are always twiddles you can add, improvements you can make; every time I ride a lift I'm watching the slope, picking out the best technique I can see, and asking myself "What's s/he doing that I don't do? How I do get to make it look more like that when I ski?" But *basically* it's really not complicated, any more than learning to skate and learning to cycle are complicated. And those are the two motor skills that it's most like. Teaching people, I think, is mainly a matter of removing impediments (like uncomfortable boots) and putting them in a position to 'get it'.

The main bits of advice I give when I'm teaching someone are
Lesson 1: learn to stop (i.e. the snow plough)
Lesson 2: learn to turn (more snow plough, and speed control by turning into the slope)
Lesson 3: bring your heels together as you turn (half way to parallel)
Lesson 4: point straight down the slope (start with a gentle one!) and side slip with alternate skis to keep your speed down
Lesson 5: point straight down the slope (start with a gentle one!) and side slip with both skis, left then right then left, to keep your speed down. You can now wedel and the whole wide wonderful world is yours...
Lesson 6: That's it

Oh, and at all points during the learning process: PUT THOSE POLES AWAY. They are nothing to do with learning to ski and will just teach you bad habits, like relying on your elbows and shoulders when you should be relying on your ankles and heels.

In reply to rogersavery:

Snowboarders seem to spend a lot more time on their bums in the beginning though. Especially around Pomas.

In reply to AdCo82:

Enthusiasm and some boldness will get you a long way but some lessons as well will get you a lot further, and much quicker.

In reply to Tim Chappell:



Don't agree with that, I reckon pole planting is pretty fundamental, and makes people less likely to get into bad habits such as skidded turns. The pole plant leads naturally to an unweight/bob - the classic self-taught skier (and one of my mates is the epitome) stays in a crouch/armchair and does it all by twisting. Now admittedly with carvers a good skier has no need for poles on an easy run, but try carving you way down a mogul field or a narrow couloir. Without a basis of good technique, the self-taught skier struggles when they progress on to challenging slopes.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

I don't think pole planting is for beginners. Tim's advice is good, re poles, for complete beginners.

Agree with the rest of your post. Get some lessons.

In reply to Saor Alba:

Agree for complete beginners, but Tim said "at all points during the learning process". We had a discussion last week as to when you should be taught to parallel turn - this being the point at which skiing become less about suffering and more about fun. The consensus was end of first week/start of second, and I'd say you'd want poles at that point.

The way I was taught to do a parallel turn was excellent - the instructor had us traversing a slope, with weight on the inside edges, and then simply stand up and see what happens. Your skis naturally turn downhill, so all you have to do is put weight on the other edge and you've done a turn. After the struggles with a snowplough, it was just so easy. I'm amazed at how few of my friends understood it like this.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Slight aside. I can ski reasonably well but can't snow plough. The reason for this is my feet naturally point out, almost at 45 degrees for my right foot so getting into a snowplough position is difficult to impossible. Does anyone else have this problem? It also leads to interesting skin-tracks.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

That sums it up totally.

you can pivot and scrape your way down any pisted slope, quite fast even, looking like a cat scratching down a tin roof.....
But if you steer like a hovercraft you'll struggle off piste.

I think the point about poles was more that some people use them for extra leverage / gyroscopic efect when steering from their shoulders..... always good to see

In reply to Chris the Tall:
That's an interesting anecdote. I must try what your instructor told you to do.

As with learning to cycle or skate, I'm sure there's more than one way of skinning the cat. But for me, the moment when I first had to try skiing with no poles (because I'd left them behind or something) was an absolute revelation. My elbows and shoulders went out of the equation right away, and I realised that till I got the poles back, my skiing was going to have to come almost exclusively from my feet. Then the penny dropped--that's where my skiing should have been coming from all along. And the main reason it wasn't coming from there was the poles.

I was watching a couple of classes at Glen Shee last time I was up there--red-jacketed instructor and 8 or 9 8-or-9-year-olds. Not a ski-pole in sight.

In reply to AdCo82:
I did a mixture of both I guess. I started out with lessons which got me to the point of snow-plough turning safely and then started following the other people I was skiing with around. I pretty much taught myself to turn parallel in self-defence because it was the only way of keeping up. I had snow-boarded before though and that helped, because although the movements required to achieve a turn are different, once I had understood that the concept of un-weighting, letting skis/board run in to the fall-line and then weighting the other edge is the same it didn't take me long to get there.

I did continue with lessons, although certainly after the first few, I was mostly using them to refine techniques I had taught myself. I am glad I continued with them though, as I suspect my technique would be much scrappier than it is if I hadn't. I would say that skiing as much as you can outside of lessons is also important though.

Now, on a week's holiday I usually spend one morning with a guide working on something that I am struggling with but have no other lessons. I did a bumps class last year, which was really useful, and a session in deep powder this year (something I always struggle with because my stance is quite wide). I find these sessions useful, because the small tweaks to technique required to master these skills improve my skiing all round, and I also get pushed out further out of my comfort zone than I venture on my own.

On the issue of poles, one of the downsides of teaching myself was that I was never taught to pole-plant as I skipped straight from the snow-plough classes to the I-can-ski-a-red-run class. I carried poles as they are useful for getting around in flat areas, but never used them while actually skiing. I was taught to use them properly in the bumps class I did last year and it was a revelation! I don't think poles should be introduced at the snow-plough stage, but they should certainly be introduced while learning to make parallel turns.

In reply to AdCo82:

I've skied since I was 7 and I'm considerably older than that now. I learnt through the classic ski school groups, first in Scotland (Glensee and Glen Coe) and Bulgaria and then France with the ESF.

I'd say that I'm reasonably capable - I can ski pretty well in most conditions, it's only when it gets over 50 degrees and narrow that I start to get concerned and I don't jump off things that are more than twice as big as I am. Not bad rules that leaves me a lot of mountains and lines to ski.

This season, for the first time in 15 years, I had a couple of day-long lessons as part of a small group. One was 1:2 and the other was 1:4.

It was the best money I've spent on my skiing in a while. Skiing is noticeably easier and more efficient, I'm quicker and more confident in the trees and it's something I'll probably do every couple of years now.

If you want to ski well, be taught to do it. It costs money but you'll not regret it because you'll be able to ski better much earlier and you'll enjoy yourself far more.

In reply to london_huddy:

Interesting. How much is it for a day's 1:2 tuition?

In reply to Tim Chappell:

On that point I'll agree with you, once you've learnt to do a parallel turn and have a bit of confidence, then ditching your poles and turning using weight and angulation is great for improving your technique. And also great fun when you get a wide, empty piste that you can really rip down. But I also love doing short swing turns, which I think is a good way of ingraining that sense of rhythm which comes in useful on the harder stuff.

Essentially the advice is go out and play - if the piste is easy don't just get to the bottom but experiment a little, or use it as a refresher. Or ski backwards.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

I was refining my ski-backwards technique on the soft snow at the bottom of my Aonach Beag run last Wednesday. I was on a narrowing tongue of poor snow and tilting backwards was easier than trying to turn. More fun, too.

I don't really pole-plant at all when turning, even if I'm carrying poles, which on-piste I'm usually not. The only place where I actually want poles, on-piste, is when I hit steep mogul fields.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

In Whistler, it was $250 CAD for 3 days. I ducked out of 1 day because of powder and blue skies!

Max4 is the company - you can guess the maximum ratio.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

I was skiing down a gun-barrel gully and doing uphill turns, or "twizzles" as one friend call them (there's probably some gnarly term used by the cool kids, but I don't know it! ). Poles were definitely useful for that.

Poles also come in handy for when you want to check if the slope is more that 45 degress !

In reply to Chris the Tall:

I skied a gentle sort of gun-barrel on Aonach Beag... it was brilliant

In reply to AdCo82:

I did this last year, haven't had any lessons and I'm happy on reds now but would no doubt benifit from proper lessons. I've likely picked up some nasty habits. My biggest issue was navigation when touring with the increased speed (I won't go inot that again!). I've sorted that now and am much more cautious! Shame this winter's been so stormy.

In reply to AdCo82:

As said above, self taught skiers tend to look like they're sitting on the bog and they often complain of screaming legs after even a modest amount of skiing. Really rubbish technique and missing out on a whole load of enjoyment. Skiing is easy, graceful and relatively effortless when done well!

Get lessons, it's an investment.

In reply to blurty:



So they should stand up. I'm not querying the value of lessons, but you surely don't need a lesson to tell you that?

In reply to Tim Chappell:


No, but you often need a lesson to tell you that you are squatting in the first place. Most people are amazingly bad at judging their own body positions when they don't have a mirror or video. I have often found that the value of lessons is that they tell me what I am doing wrong - once I know that I can figure out how to fix it for myself.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

I have a confession Tim, I have only left the toilet seat recently myself! (After some late-in-life lessons)

In reply to MG:

interestingly I have the opposite problem, a childhood injury resulting in a natural snowplough.The more I ski the better it gets but even at speed the mild snowplough is there.

Ski with mates that have video cameras and check your own style, you can learn as much from bad as well as good technique/style

In reply to macinboots:


I do too. My legs naturally evert from the hips when I bend my knees (i.e., roll inwards) as a result of a slightly mis-aligned pelvis which results in a bit of a snowplough (or knee pain from trying to turn my feet out when my knees turn in). I also knock my knees against the top tube when I cycle! I have initiated discussion about it with ski instructors a couple of times, but none of them seemed to think it was a problem as I am still using parallel technique to turn.

In reply to kathrync:

not quite the same as mine, its my feet that turn in, my legs couldnt stop a pig in a passage. John Wayne eat your heart out!!

In reply to kathrync:

I started skiing at 41!

I had quality instruction from the start. i was lucky in this respect as it was with the Army. I am now a resonable skier and think that having good instruction every now and then is invaluable.

I just did a Off Piste Ski Perfromance Course sand that was outstanding and given me loads of things to work on to improve and somew new ideas on how to ski certain conditions.

So I do recommend a regualr bit of instruction if its good quality.

I also did my instructors course which helped my own skiing quite a lot.

In reply to Removed User:

I too first learned to ski in the Army on "exercise snow queen" back in the early 1980's, we had 14 days, four Nordic and ten down hill. The instruction was a bit basic so I only really got the hang of it toward the end of the second week. Then went on my own skiing in the Harz mountains near Hannover. By the end of the second snow queen I was skiing steep blacks and off piste, so the instruction did work.
After that I managed to get an exchange with the Italian Alpini Regiment for six months (February to July). That was a really steep learning curve. Since then I've done a week of telemark lessons, which were crap and a few evening sessions on a dry slope to get the hang of carvers. I think that time spent building the basics was time well spent. I'm still skiing and touring 35 years later.
I've been touring with self-taught skiers in the past, their a liability. As soon as the snow gets good you spend all your time waiting for them to pick them selves up. They get knackered and f**k up a really good skiing day.

In reply to OwenM:


Touch of over-generalisation here perhaps? Maybe what you mean is not that all self-taught skiers are a liability, but that the ones you skied with were.

I'm basically a self-taught skier. Every lesson I've ever had (in the Alps, in big groups, a long time ago) was next to useless. All the important stuff, I taught myself. I'm willing to bet that if you skied with me you wouldn't be able to tell whether or not I'm self-taught--at least, if I hadn't just told you

In reply to Tim Chappell:


I'm sorry but this comment and the following:


Are complete and utter nonsense. The process of learning to ski is much more complex than learning to ride a bike. And to learn to ski well takes a lifetime.

Your lessons 1-6 are all teaching completely wrong technique. For a start, the transition from snow plough to parallel is not a matter of 'bringing your heels together'.

In reply to Edradour:
I don't think you *are* sorry, actually. But it's not a problem; what you call complete and utter nonsense has served me perfectly well, thanks, and the kids too. It works. So until you suggest something that works better, which you haven't, I shall go on using it.

I'm interested that you think learning to stop is "completely wrong technique". What should a beginner do instead, learn to fly?

I don't think it's irrelevant to this discussion that there are an awful lot of people out there with a large financial stake in promoting the view that skiing is really difficult and complicated. Curiously enough, this view is much commoner, from what I've seen, in England, where skiing is not really an indigenous sport and where the average skiing ability-level is somewhere between abysmal and non-existent, than it is in places like Canada, Norway, Bavaria, Austria, etc., where pretty much everyone learns to ski at the same age as they learn to cycle, and with no more fuss or difficulty.

In reply to AdCo82:

I had two hour long lessons in a beginners group on alpine skis the first time I ever went skiing (I was 18, in NZ when travelling before uni). I remember the instructor being friendly and complimentary that I was "getting it" well, but nothing of what he actually taught. I skied a few days on my own with hired alpine gear after that - 3 or 4 at most - just trying to copy good skiers I saw going by. Went to Uni in Scotland - did one more day of skiing on alpine gear with other people from the climbing club. My mate skied telemark and said he would teach me, so the next year I saved up, bought primitive tele gear and have skied tele ever since - nearly 20 years since. I've never had lessons beyond my mate yelling at me to keep up and reading the Paul Parker book.

I'm not very good though, so that might tell you something.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

Why don't you have a one to one lesson with a good instructor and then see what you think? You might be surprised.

Like most activities involving movement and balance there are levels of skill and ability, and normally more levels above you than is obvious until someone starts to point out the possibilities.

In reply to Chris the Tall:

Here at least kids don't given poles for downhill skiing until they are 10 plus I'd say and have some idea what they're doing. I've never seen instructors taking kids below teenage for lessons with poles.

In reply to MG:
Absolutely, I'm open to that. I'm always looking to improve. I've never had a skiing lesson in the whole of my life that was the slightest use to me--but I'm entirely open to the possibility that I might just have been unlucky in my instructors.

I am distinguishing learning basic skiing, which I honestly do think is just learning a motor-skill like riding a bike, from learning really good skiing technique. For sure, the latter is much more complex. And for sure, my technique would probably look ropey to anyone who really knew what he was talking about.

But: where do I find a really good instructor? I don't want to waste money, and skiing time, on the kind of garbage that I endured as a teenager in the Alps. Can you recommend anyone?

In reply to AdCo82:

Have high level (i.e. very small groups or 1:1) lessons every so often interspersed with lots of practice between is the most time/money effective way to get good at skiing.

Entirely self taught is not the way to go if you want to get competent.

In reply to Tim Chappell:
Well I have always just booked odd lessons in the alps. Quality has varied from useless to excellent, so a bit of lottery. I hear good things about some of the off-piste clinic type offerings (google) though.

In reply to MG:
Hmm. I'm not sticking money in a lottery. And I'm unlikely to ski in the Alps any time soon. (Not all my family ski, so skiing is not a possible family-holiday plan.) If I bought a day's 1: 1 ski instruction it would be in Scotland, so I need a recommendation of a Scottish instructor.

In reply to AdCo82:

I did just that, I went to Cham for a season and spent the first month carrying my sister's skis up the nursery slopes whilst I saved up for a pass. After that I just went out with people better than me and tried to keep up. As with anything there are few short cuts, the more you do the better you get and whilst skiing is technical and lessons will help I'm not sure they'd help as much as people above are making out. I've seen people concentrate so hard on trying to do everything they've been told they do not ski naturally.

Edradour seems to have poo pooed all the conventional clichés about learning to ski so is maybe in possession of some secrets that aren't available through books etc. Ultimately it's down to you (are you time rich and money poor or vice versa?) and what do you want from it. There's no point trying to perfect your skiing if you only go once a year, it won't happen, better just to go and enjoy it and get sliding down them hills.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

Hi, I did the BASI 3 qualification when I was younger and that particularly organisation has a good reputation. If you like I can do some research into BASI instructors near you. I think if you found the right person then you could certainly improve. It's probably best to do it on a good visibility day, with good snow conditions to get the best out of it.

In reply to AdCo82:
"Which of you literally just bought some kit and taught yourselves how to ski?"

Me

"How did it go?"

Fractured a rib on my first day and got some lessons after that. Well worth doing.

In reply to outtathaway:

Thanks for the offer. I'll have a google myself, first off.

There's no hurry about this--it won't happen this season now, anyway.

In reply to outtathaway:

Anyone know anything about this chap? I know where he is, you drive past his place every time you go to the Northern Corries.

http://www.spanglefish.com/aviemoreskiinstructor/index.asp?pageid=293240

In reply to Tim Chappell:

Google Alison Cullshaw (SP?) and if you can go on one of her courses.

I learned a huge amount and improived my skiing, both on and off piste massivly.

A lot of the people on the course had done it several times which is a strong endorsemnt.

In reply to Removed User:
Thanks, but no use; she's in Chamonix. I'm not.

Also, looking at her pages, I obviously can't afford her, not 1: 1 anyway.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

Do direct experience but I have heard excellent reports about her too. You're wealthy - jump on a plane.

In reply to MG:
I'm not wealthy. Not since I bought that touring set-up...

I do have an Italian mate who's a philosophy professor in Germany. He used to be a ski-racer. And he owns a cabin in Cortina d'Ampezzo. I think that might be a direction I should be looking in

In reply to Tim ChappellI'm afraid I don't know the guy you gave a link to. However, he is BASI 2 qualified which is not a qualification that comes easily, unless you get any personal recommendations for instructors in Scotland I think he could be a good bet. I'm afraid my knowledge is more related to the alps.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

You don't need to shell out for a day necessarily. Glencoe and Nevis at least, presumably the others too, do lessons by the hour. They are about £40 1-1 at Nevis. I did one earlier this year when they had a half price for locals deal. I was impressed with the instructor and got a lot out of an hour, including a couple of take away points and drills that improved my (intermediate) skiing straight away. Also if you can be flexible and go midweek you can sometimes walk into a group lesson that has no one else in it- my Mrs did that recently, just ask before you book.Still not the cheapest but you can be a bit more relaxed about that kind of money.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

You know people with cabins in the Italian alps and you spend your time tooling around Aviemore!? Are you mad?

In reply to MG:
Not mad, just time- and money-poor.

And I've only recently got to know said Italian, so I need to Work On Him. This is a gradual and sneaky process

In reply to nw:

Thanks. Good thoughts.

In reply to Tim Chappell:


I, and others, have suggested proper lessons which I think are essential for a beginner and will dramatically improve anyones's skiing.


I'm not sure that the comparison is valid. In Canada, where I am at the moment (teaching skiing actually), the school sports lessons are skiing so they are well versed in decent technique from an early age. Many children grow up learning to be bilingual with little fuss. It doesn't mean that learning to be fluent in a new language is 'easy' (granted one is a motor skill and one a mental skill but the point remains; learning as a child is considerably easier).

In reply to Edradour:


Lessons are not essential for a beginner. My own experience proves that. I've seen beginners turn into proficient skiers with no formal lessons at all. I've also seen beginners turn into proficient skiers with no help at all from any lessons they had. This is what happened to me.

Your own report of how you yourself learned to ski proves that lessons are not essential for a beginner:

">Which of you literally just bought some kit and taught yourselves how to ski?

>>This is how I learnt originally. Well, similar - I went with mates who could ski."

I don't dispute that lessons might be helpful. I just haven't, myself, ever found any that are.

In reply to Tim Chappell:



I would agree. The best skier I know (proficient and impeccably stylish) was entirely self taught. He learnt, by himself, in three or four years, what I haven't managed in a lifetime (skiing since I was three).

It's rare to meet anybody who says that they got nothing from a proper skiing lesson, but they are self-evidently not essential.

In reply to Tim Chappell:

As kids, my brother and I were out in all weather and conditions following my Dad at Glenshee. Lessons weren't an option, and I've never had any. I know to this day, I still ski with habits that really should be ironed out, and I work on them when the opportunity arises. From watching other better skiers (who've had lots of training), I can see the differences.

Despite never having any lessons, I can see the value in getting some early on, rather than just getting on with it. I am sure you can get to a more proficient level far earlier with some proper instruction than otherwise.

In reply to Tim Chappell:


For someone who really analyses what you are doing, suggests all sorts of techniques to correct your errors and proposes new and useful ways of doing things :

http://www.offpiste.org.uk/

Alison is to a very large extent the instructor you always wanted but could never find. Not cheap mind, but it will be tailored to you.

Obviously mainly off-piste oriented, as the name suggests.

In reply to Simon4:

Thanks, but she's Chamonix-based... see upthread...

In reply to AdCo82:

Slight digression here...
Has anyone gone from snowboarding to skiing? I was away last week boarding and thought about hiring some ski's for a day or two. However, I didn't want to risk spending a lot of time on my arse when I could be having fun.
I'm interested to know if people think being a boarder offers an advantage when learning to ski. Or maybe it's more of a hindrance?!

In reply to adventure_vulture:




I posted something about this higher up the thread. I had been snowboarding for 5-6 years before I started skiing. I found the transition quite easy for several reasons:

Firstly, the concept of riding on an edge, unweighting to allow the board/skis to flatten out and move into the fall-line and then transferring to the other edge to make a turn is the same. The body movements required to make that happen obviously differ, but I found that understanding the concept gave me a head start

Secondly, I was already accustomed to moving at speed over snow (and indeed falling) and therefore the fear-factor was less.

Thirdly, if you can do it on a board, then riding button lifts etc is ridiculously easy on skis

I was making parallel turns on red runs as long as they weren't too cut up and getting down blacks safely albeit with no style after 5 days of skiing - 6 years later I can happily ski a reasonably wide variety of terrain, and am attempting to find touring boots in tiny sizes so I can get out touring next season. My skiing skills after 6 years are far more advanced than the boarding skills I had acquired in the same period were. In fact, although I kept my snowboard for 5 years, I never used it again after I started skiing!

As far as falling goes, I fell far less in the early stages of learning to ski than I did learning to snowboard. Also, when I did fall it hurt less. On a snowboard, you tend to fall forwards and faceplant or backwards and crack your head or tailbone, or land on your hands. As a new skier, you tend to topple sideways onto your hips and it's a lot less painful. Skiing faceplants only started happening when I started investigating the powder

In reply to Jonny2vests:


Great comment. Very accurate. Lessons do tend to make skiing more enjoyable for many reasons, they can be costly but with a good teacher you'll feel value for money...

In reply to Tim Chappell:

Re your costs, we had 6 people in our party and Alison seemed quite content and able to deal with that, still giving people individual attention and advice. Wouldn't go for any more than that though, even if she agreed which I would doubt.

So you need to get 5 friends ....

In reply to Simon4:

And be in Chamonix (see above)...

In reply to Tim Chappell:

I did a course with groups of 6, 4 half days £200.

That worked well, 1 to 1 ewould be too much for me. both fincially and in coaching overload.

In reply to Removed User:
So you (singular) paid £50 for each half day?

In reply to AdCo82:

Didn't buy any kit but had a rest day in Rjukan and we decided to go to the ski centre. I'd never attempted to Ski before but i managed to saddle up and get to the top of the mountain on the drag lift. It took around an hour to get down the run, but by the bottom i'd certainly got the hang of it. Fast forward 5 years and I am enjoying skiing massively - when I did get around to having a lesson last winter in Chamonix my technique was complemented and very little work had to be done!

In reply to AdCo82:

Well, lots of good and bad here. FWIW - guess it's like swimming, how may people have swimming lessons and yet we all enjoy swimming and messing about in the pool or sea? So, just like skiing - enjoy yourselves and after a week's lessons you should be reasonably competent and not a great threat to everyone.
However, that's recreational skiing and if you want to go further like a) skiing deep powder, b) skiing dodgy/steep conditions off-piste or indeed c) competitive stuff, then lessons are a_good_idea. Amazing how people who say they have taught themselves and think they can ski are useless off-piste.
So for a week or 2 annually, OK to mess around without lessons but for those that are 'perfectionists', showoffs etc or who want to ski hard core, then have lessons from good instructors, probably 1:1.
Just saying and always exceptions of course, Mike

In reply to Tim Chappell:

I did it as a pack of 4 half days, not sure if you can do just one.

In reply to AdCo82:
I was a typical of the self taught, and skied like a barbarian. This is the business:

"Skiing for Mountaineers"

http://www.offpiste.org.uk/courses/ski-performance-scotland/

I now ski like a ninja. That's what I think.

Wish I'd done it earlier before learning that straight-lining a black run on skimpy touring skis at oooh...... 500 mph, at least, breaks your back.

In reply to AdCo82:
Yes I just bought some old kit and had a go. Now ski OK, well enough to get down most Black's and enjoy red's. Not bothered about off piste as no one i ski with goes off piste. I'm quite self analytical though and get a bit better each year, but when you only ski for 5 or 6 days a year it's quite slow going.

I really enjoy my skiing, but if I could turn the clock back I'd have learnt properly.

In reply to AdCo82:
Skiing probably breaks down to 90% bottle and 10 style/technique.....confidence comes with lots and lots of mileage.....skiing with better skiers can help fasttrack this or put you off for life....you know your own friends best! Technique is where feedback is really useful and for lots of folk that means a bit of instruction.....style is the personal bit...my kids are all good skiiers and all have very different style....plenty very competent skiiers look like they got a broompole wedged somewhere painful
And don't under- rate the basics....strong snow-plough, side-slipping/stepping, solid traversing, kick-turns.....
The day you are skiing frozen avalanche debris through a crevasse-field, forty pound sack on your back, two and a half intact edges left on your skis, they will get you a lot further than any amount of fancy wedelling!

In reply to doz:

Surely that should be 90% technique and 10% bottle? You must be doing something wrong.

The general idea is to avoid the frozen avalanche debris through crevasse-fields, it's not nice to ski on. Also I can't think of any reason to carry 40lbs on a ski tour even when carrying camping kit.

In reply to OwenM:



Ammo, man!

In reply to OwenM:


Obviously


Thanks for that...will remember to ski beneath the seracs instead next time.


Well I do like a comfy chair, pipe ,slippers and bottle of malt at the end of a day's skiing but maybe things would be different if I had better technique...

In reply to AdCo82:

OK I've just seen a whole lot of photos of myself skiing at the weekend alongside some better skiers. It's pretty clear that although I get down stuff being self taught has left me this a lot of pretty bad habits and poor technique.

I know what I'm doing wrong but struggle to correct it when it matters.

Some proper lessons and much mileage beckon at the start of next season.

In reply to DaveHK:
if you have nt already, take a look at this
http://www.offpiste.org.uk/courses/ski-performance-for-mountaineers/
lots of good things about alison on ukc

In reply to DaveHK:

Just destroy the photos !! You looked like a capable off-piste skier to me when I saw you the previous weekend. But I understand your sentiment though and I feel like a total gonk when I'm out and about with many of my ski buddies in Scotland. I've reconciled that with an acceptance that although I've steadily improved over 300 or so days skiing in the last 12 years, I started out about 30 years too late to ever truly master it. I've been told that BASI training would force me deconstruct and reconstruct for the better but that takes both money and time ...

In reply to Tim Chappell:

I know you're talking in big generalisations, but I'd add to your list the ability to read the slope ahead. Knowing if you're going to carve, skid, not turn, jump, change technique for a different snow type, or whatever, in advance makes skiing a whole lot easier.

Of course, there are times you read it wrong (ah well), or it's flat light, in cloud, and snowing, where you just have to 'use the force'...

In reply to DaveHK:

Actually, having just seen the photos, don't destroy them. Those descents look awesome

In reply to AdCo82:

Been watching this thread and interesting to hear what others have to say.

For me, I had 3 lessons at a dry ski slope in the UK equating to about 7hours, and then went on a weeks skiing holiday in January. And now I've just come back from 2 weeks in Chamonix. Over all, I've got 17 days of skiing to my name, can ski black runs, moguls, powder and did the Vallee Blanche twice in a day. All I did was read a book (the all mountain skier) and watch youtube videos before, and then skied with more experienced skier friends and watched what they did and followed them.

So in my eyes, get lessons in the basics to begin with, ski with experienced skiers and if you pick it up quick, then there's no reason why you can't be a good self taught skier.

Although I will be getting lessons next year to improve my technique

In reply to Mr-Cowdrey:

The problem with skiing is there is getting down and skiing. Most brit climbers are unafraid of the mountains so are self taught, get down anything, with no style, no control over direction or speed and are thus knackered at the bottom.

This was certainly what I did, but the ski perfromance for mountaineers course sorted alot of that out, so I am now much more in control, and much much much less tired at the end of any given run.

I can't recommend this course enough if you want to get much more efficient and actually ski, rather than get down.

There is a world of difference between being a good skier in your own eyes and being a good skier.

In reply to moffatross:


There are two sides to it for me. I'm out in amazing territory skiing the things I want to ski which given my late start in skiing makes me very happy.

But...

I'd like to ski them just a bit better.

In reply to DaveHK:
The interesting thing that I learned Dave was when I took up telemark. It showed me that my skiing, on alpine kit I mean such as Fritchis, was actually very poor although I could get down most stuff I wanted to.

With tele, your technique needs to be less poor, if I can put it that way, as it will punish you if it is. I therefore went on multiple ski lessons and it's been really useful in showing and teaching me what to do with particular reference to flex and upper body position.

The revelation for me back then was the telemark being just another turn, which is true, when I had it in my head that it was completely different and didn't see how the fundamentals of skiing translated across all types.

In reply to AdCo82:

Skiing is not difficult, skiing well is.
A bit like mountain biking.

If you have the dosh, get yourself some lessons.
If you are an independent-minded person teach yourself.

Some people are very observant and analytical (Dave K of this parish is) and can learn form their own mistakes. These people are very "spatial aware" and transfer skills from other sports.

Some people, like myself, aren't but didn't mind decking it repeatedly. I couldn't afford that amount of abuse these days.

I learned by skiing a lot and thanks to my mates who were all racing giving me tips. I am very efficient but full off bad habits. There isn't much I wouldn't ski if I put my mind to it (however these days, I think I wouldn't have much fun in certain context: moguls, very steep and crud).

In reply to AdCo82:

Seems like everyone on UKC is a pretty good skier. I reckon people should have to post a video of themselves with every comment like, "I can ski the whole mountain, ski blacks, off-piste, bumps etc....

Like a lot of sports, getting to an "ok" level isn't that hard, getting good is very hard and pretty unobtainabale for the one week a year Brit. (IMO, but my definition of good might be different to yours....)

In reply to AdCo82:

I can't recall having any lessons. It's like anything. Put the work in and you'll get good IMO.

In reply to galpinos:

Indeed.

Many of us think we are good, but in reality are not as we are probably basing it against a benchmark of once a year british office worker counterparts who think getting down a black piste in any way shape or form is a heroic endevaour.

(I include myself in this thinking we are good group, or I used to think I was pretty good, but now know I am anything but, certainly in the grand scheme of things)

In reply to AdCo82:

there's been a kind of mission creep to the thread but surely it must be evident to anyone that you will not reach your greatest potential at any sport without expert coaching. Yes you can teach yourself to ski, done plenty of that myself; but it is never going to be the best way to learn . Unfortunately there is an absolutely huge amount of crap and disinterested professional tuition going on which affects the comparison and people's experiences very adversely. It is IMHO often the rule rather than the exception.
A really excellent ski teacher will quickly diagnose what the best way for you as an individual to ski is going to be (there isn't just one right way) and gradually develop you along that pathway by means of the appropriate drills, advice, feed back etc. Everybody from beginner to pro will get better this way and will never get as good as they could have been if they don't make use of it. Whether you're arsed about reaching your optimum or not is another question. And actually finding coaching of this quality another again

In reply to Paul Atkinson:

Entirely agree with you there Paul in both points, which unfortunately biases the sample. People are rightly suspicious of teaching, because so much of what is available is very poor and they think that they will be wasting both their money and their precious holiday time. They are often quite right.


Again you are right. A good teacher will also suggest lots of tips and exercises that you can actually do to improve things, not just repeat a huge list of instructions about body positions, all supposedly to be done at once, so that you manage to do none of them properly.

It is curious that climbers are becoming ever more convinced of the benefits from coaching for climbing (which was traditionally self-taught), while skiing, which has for a long time been recognised as a skill that is NOT intuitive and needs teaching, is seen as something that you can "just pick up from your mates".

In reply to Paul Atkinson:


Two words... Alison Culshaw

In reply to Simon4:


I see that as part of the creeping terror of 'qualificationitis'; the growing need to have a piece of paper that says you are competent at something, driven by the need for insurance. I don't have any pieces of paper in outdoor activities, but I regularly disagree with manuals and approved instructions on various topics, ranging from cycling (Bikeability) to navigation. And, IMHO, with good reason.

I see instruction as a convenient way to learn quicker than you would otherwise, and nothing more.

My skiing career started late (at 33), in Bulgaria, where I persisted with local group tuition for a couple of days, and skiing with friends in the afternoon, before taking myself off to a quiet piste to advance myself beyond a snowplough, following tips from a friend. I went round and round a short piste all day, and, by the end, could do reasonable parallel turns. I picked up a hockey stop very soon afterwards, which is useful when you don't have great directional control yet, and also gives clues about unweighting to turn, etc.

The next year, I took an ESF group course, and encountered the usual problem of poor English, since, being technically-minded, I wanted to understand the mechanics of skiing, and the instructor couldn't do that.

Since then, I've had one, half-day private lesson which effectively sorted out my body turning and showed me how to use the carving skis, after which I've figured the rest out for myself. I tend to analyse my skiing, and much of the time, I'm practising/perfecting as I ski, rather than just getting down. But I recognise that I've hit a plateau, and could probably do with some more private tuition to advance from where I am, especially off-piste.

The tips I give other people (beginners) are all about edge control and being dynamic (weighting/unweighting), explaining how carvers work, and about reading and using upcoming terrain.

In reply to captain paranoia:










Interesting. "Sorted out your body turning" ? - long radius/ short radius /bumps?

I assume by "weighting/unweighting" you mean pressure control?

IMHO a "good" skier doesn't need to "read and use upcoming" terrain. You should be able to adapt your skiing to the changeable terrain underfoot and you should direct the skis where you want them to go regardless of terrain.
Skiing in a whiteout is good for that.



Suggests that you have excellent proprioception and are very good at learning by copying. For the rest of us mortals watching video of our supposed perfect turns can be a salutary experience.

In reply to Tangler:




I imagine he means the habit of beginners to turn with their shoulders rather than hips and ski.

In reply to Morgan Woods:


So what he actually means is that they have eliminated (or minimised) a bad habit, at beginner level.

In reply to Tangler:


As Morgan rightly deduced, throwing my bum and shoulders about to thug my way down, rather than keeping my body pointing down the fall line, and turning my legs across my body, from the hips. The useful tool I was given was to stick the hands on your hips; if you look like you're in Showaddywaddy, you're doing it wrong...


I don't know what you mean by pressure control, unless you mean adjusting/switching the centre of mass from one side of the body to the other in order to encourage your carving skis to roll over and cause a turn.

The demonstration I use is to get the skier to stand still, with weight spread easily, and then try to turn their skis. Of course, it's very difficult. I now get them to dip down and hop up whilst they try to turn, and, of course, it's now possible. I then go on to get them to use the dip/hop technique to ski downhill in a narrow line, as you might when negotiating a narrow path (which in itself is a useful technique for beginners, since it's a lot easier than snowploughing). This is one technique I was taught in my second year.

The advantage of this is that is gets the skier to understand that releasing weight on the skis makes them easier to turn, which is what traditional instruction tries to do with the tedious traversing and slow dip and bob. Doing it slowly makes no different to the snow loading of the skis, so students don't get it (I didn't).

Unweighting makes it much easier to turn the skis across your body, and to change edges, etc.


Agreed, but, if you can see the terrain, it allows you to plan your route down, and avoid people, bumps, etc. It's just like any activity where it's a good idea to be scanning what's coming up ahead, and planning what you're going to do (e.g. driving). It gives you choices, and scope more a more enjoyable ski. In whiteouts, yes, you have to be able to react to whatever comes up, but, since I cannot see very far, I ski much more circumspectly than when the view is clear (again, just like driving).


My proprioception is probably no more than average. But I think about things a lot, and use my engineering brain to figure out how skiing works, especially carving skis. Video, or even stills of skiing are indeed salutary; you see just what a spanner you actually look like (I certainly do). However, video cameras were still quite large, heavy and expensive when I started skiing...


Yes, but there are so many bad habits that I could have had. That was the one he identified that I had, and corrected immediately.

Judging by the tone of your entire reply, you seem to be offended by something I've said. I really can't see what.

In reply to Tangler:

>
Would you suggest a climber ignore the terrain in front of him and climb the rock as if it were a ladder? Skiing is about making the most of the terrain not imposing a preset number or type of turns on the terrain however inappropriate.

In reply to Postmanpat:


No. But then climbing rock/ice/mixed is different from skiing.

Skiing is about making the most of the terrain not imposing a preset number or type of turns on the terrain. however inappropriate?

IMHO good skiing is about not being constrained by the terrain. If you want to carve the moguls, or use a gully as a half pipe, it would be good to have the skills to do it.
Really good skiers can impose a preset number of turns on the terrain, however inappropriate/difficult, a good example being racing.

In reply to Tangler:

BTW, here's a discussion of unweighting. I think it's a pretty commonly-used term in skiing.

http://www.ski-jungle.com/better-skiing/chapter4/unweighting-your-skis.htm

In reply to Tangler:




They can, but generally they don't. It's partly the racing tradition in skiing that has produced this mindset although in reality of course racers are constantly adjusting their technique to the terrain. Watch the top"extreme" skiers and exactly the opposite is true. Their main skill (apart from there actual physical technique) is exploiting th terrain.Skiing demanding terrain off piste and trying to impose a fixed and inappropriate style on it may be possible but it's not much more rational than treating every climb as a ladder, is much harder work and half as much fun.

Skiing should be regarded as a "open sport" in which the environment changes all the time and the participants anticipates and reacts to that and each movement is therefore subtly different. You are thinking of it as a "closed sport" like figure skating or gymnastics in which the environments fixed and therefore the aims to make the same moment every time.Hills and snow aren't like that…..

In reply to captain paranoia:


Body down the fall line - short turns = good. High speed carving = .....



Pressure = the "thing" that is building/being released between your ski and the snow as you "dip and hop"




= a sort of description, kind of, of pressure control. But for which ski, and when, and why....?





"I see instruction as a convenient way to learn quicker than you would otherwise, and nothing more."
I disagree with this statement (though I'm not offended), in particular the "and nothing more".
I accept you may have an analytical mind and enjoy the analysis of the system of skiing, however there are a fair few ski instructors who are also analytical and enjoy the dissection of the process of skiing. They have the added advantage of being able to fine tune and tweak how they ski to test theories, as well as discuss them with other "experts" in the area.
Many of them make a professional career out of teaching it at various levels.
Whilst I would be the first to agree that some of them are very poor at imparting that knowledge, I fundamentally disagree that good skiing is just something you can "pick up" - just 'a bit quicker with a ski instructor' (Unless you are gifted with excellent proprioception, superb analytical skills and the ability to spend very significant periods of your time skiing.

I am sorry if I am coming across as a bit pissed off, but to an extent I am. Skiing is something that is really simple, but also very complicated and I do believe that ski-instructors can play a massive role in short cutting and more importantly guiding any learning process, as well as preventing bad habits that then screw up subsequent progression.

In reply to Tangler:

True and I get mild irritated with mates who are good athletes but never progress as skiers because they won't spend a few quid occasionally to get someone to analyse what they do wrong.
But traditional instructors also over impose a set "style" on people as designated by their particular school. If a skier has got the basics-edging, side slipping, carving etc cracked the rest is often best left up to them. It's often the imposing of Rules" on the that keeps them from progressing.

In reply to Postmanpat:



The top extreme skiers need to read the terrain to determine when and where they are going to turn so that they don't die. The type of turn they need to make will be constrained by the terrain and their ability to make "any" type of turn in "any" terrain will be required.

They don't need to read the terrain to determine when they "could" make a turn - because they need the terrain to help them.

The ability to impose your turn pattern on the terrain might be hard work, but it can be fun. Take moguls - do you want to turn on the top, ski the rut line, carve regardless of the bumps or any other variant (or even look at racing - that is fairly popular)

In reply to Postmanpat:



I agree. Having said that I am not sure about how many "set styles" are left in the world of ski-instructing now and often "the basics" are a lot less cracked than the skier might think...

In reply to Tangler:




But your not "imposing your turn pattern", you've just acknowledged that you are choosing a place to turn and the appropriate way to turn there. Do you go into a mogul field saying "right I'll turn on the tops and up and unweight because that's what the bloke taught on blue pistes thirty years ago". Of course not, you choose the optimum combination of line and technique.

I didn't suggest it was anything to with whether somebody can "make the turn", but where ad how they should best make the turn. The world is full of intermediate skiers looking for the perfect 25 degree smooth powder slope on which they can exhibit the geometric smooth turns they saw the smooth instructor do. Unfortunately most slopes are like that so they f*ck up because they try and impose rather than adapt.

In reply to Tangler:


Agreed. Maybe we are arguing about semantics.

In reply to Postmanpat:


You choose the turn that you want to do, when you want to do it. Sometimes working with the terrain, sometimes imposing your turn on it.


Because they are not good enough at skiing...maybe they should have had another lesson

I think I agree with a lot of what you are saying.
My belief is just that the ability to read terrain is less important than the ability to ski all terrain.

In reply to Tangler:

>


Which would tell them how to do geometric turns on the perfect slope with their little finger articulated at the regulation angle and feet the regulation distance apart but not how to deal with the 99% of slopes that aren't like that!


Which comes with the recognition that there is not a "perfect ski turn".There is a selection of "perfect turns" for each bit of terrain and each condition.

In reply to Tangler:


Indeed; there's 'skiing', and there's 'skiing'...


Yeah, I know what pressure is... but a bald phrase like 'pressure control' could mean so many things in skiing, and it wasn't a phrase I'd come across before. 'Unweighting' is similarly vague, but it's a term I had come across before, and seems widely used.


I think you caught me at a bad moment, and bad phrasing, having recently been addressing some 'you must have professional training and a piece of paper' issues. I'm not opposed to teaching; my parents and many of their siblings and in-laws are teachers, and I enjoy sharing knowledge. Teaching is an efficient way to impart knowledge and skill. But it's not the only way, and I object to the growing trend of people who insist that you must get 'professional training' for everything from wiping your bum to blowing your nose. So when people insist that instruction is essential, I react badly...

I'm guessing that you're a ski instructor...

In reply to Tim Chappell:

Blair Aitken, based in Scotland and an all round awesome skier and instructor.