/ Mythical Gritstone discovered in the Mendips

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The Pylon King on 20 Mar 2014
Top secret location.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=236404

major report to follow
Post edited at 11:27

deepstar - on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

I'm thinking of employing a secretary to deal with the flood of email requests for directions to the crag.
ex0 - on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:
"Proper news"
Post edited at 13:54
Choss on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

Im waiting for publication of the university of Bristol geology departments report before i Accept this as mendip grit ;-)
ex0 - on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to Choss:

Fixed!
The Pylon King on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to ex0:

> Fixed!

what is?
Choss on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

They put "real news"

I Thought they were Grammatically correcting your "Proper news"

I corrected that in the south West the term actually is Proper not real.

They Changed their Comment to Proper as they werent being a grammar Nazi, so i deleted my correction of their correction.

They subsequently Posted fixed after i had deleted.

all Clear? Good :-)
The Pylon King on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to Choss:

They're ultra-serious.

I can feel an offensive post brewing up, i had better take my medication.
Mick Ward - on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

I was under the impression you'd not been taking your medication for quite some time now.

Mick
Duncan Bourne - on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

looks suspiciously like limestone to me.
Choss on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> looks suspiciously like limestone to me.

Me Too.
Duncan Bourne - on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to Choss:

reminds me of the time my brother tried to convince me that seagulls were "white" crows
The Pylon King on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Nope, it is 100% gritstone.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=236492

We did lots of research!
Post edited at 17:08
Franco Cookson on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

Calcareous Grit? Looks top wizard of the first class in any case. Get it smashed in!

The Pylon King on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to Franco Cookson:

Millstone Grit
McKEuan - on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

Is it quarried grit or just a natural buttress?! either way, top find!!!
Oceanrower - on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

Go on then, let's have a guess.

Part of the Beacon Hill pericline so....

Moon's Hill Quarry?
deepstar - on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to Oceanrower:

> Go on then, let's have a guess.

> Part of the Beacon Hill pericline so....

> Moon's Hill Quarry?

No that's Basalt.
The Pylon King on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to McKEuan:

Yep its quarried grit.
Oceanrower - on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to deepstar:
Hmm. Meant to be caving this weekend but I'll probably end up in "bloody Swildons" again!

So might just raid the club library for some light geology reading :)

Or just ask Les Williams. Bet he'll know where to find grit on the hills.....
Post edited at 18:37
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Somerset swede basher - on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

Seeing as its not in the Peak would it be acceptable to smash a load ofbolts into it? ;-)
McKEuan - on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to Somerset swede basher:

Heathen!!!
Somerset swede basher - on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to McKEuan:

Sorry, couldn't resist. I wander if anyone will hit the 'report abuse' button when they see my post!
Choss on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to Somerset swede basher:

> Sorry, couldn't resist. I wander if anyone will hit the 'report abuse' button when they see my post!

I should, because its the peaks, not the peak, and you Knows it.
Cusco - on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

You Zumerzet boys are nuts with your love of Mendipian and Wurzels esoterica.

But well done on finding some routes. Downhill Racist looks great.

Shame that one has to contact Deepstar for directions though. Have you put lip salve on the projects as well to stop the marauding Devonians from nicking them? It's just the '80s!
Choss on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to Cusco:

Dont tell ee wer tis deepstar. He be a janner :-)
The Pylon King on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to Cusco:


> You Zumerzet boys are nuts with your love of Mendipian and Wurzels esoterica.

We are working on the Mendip Esoteric Trail Challenge.

Nobody will ever be able to complete it.


Choss on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

> We are working on the Mendip Esoteric Trail Challenge.

> Nobody will ever be able to complete it.

Or want to.
deepstar - on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to Cusco:

>

> Shame that one has to contact Deepstar for directions though.

Why is it a shame? I wont bite your head off.The reason for the reticence is having lost access to a small crag by puting it's whereabouts on UKC I dont want to lose another one.
The Pylon King on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to Choss:

> Or want to.

Boring honeypot tosspot paedophiles
Choss on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

> Boring honeypot tosspot paedophiles

:-)

ex0 - on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

I was merely making fun of your title when the access requires anyone wanting to climb there to email some bloke for permission/directions to the rock.

If the routes aren't public why draw attention to them on a public forum?

Perhaps I've missed the point, or something.
The Pylon King on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to ex0:

eh? youve lost me. I didnt post anything to you.
Duncan Bourne - on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

I climbed at the Mendips once
Duncan Bourne - on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

I'll off up to the Peak this weekend so I will be keeping a close eye out for missing bits of crag and tell tale drag marks to a discreetly parked lorry ;-)
The Pylon King on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
Over the last 10 years, every time i visit the Peak i always take back to Bristol a little bit of grit.............


just enough to put in my rucksack.
Post edited at 21:56
Duncan Bourne - on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

Those years have finally paid off
The Pylon King on 20 Mar 2014
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> Those years have finally paid off

Yes, i feel so.
Cusco - on 21 Mar 2014
In reply to Choss:

Janner, Chief, Gull and now most definitely a Chief.

But what have I climbed on Mendipian Grit? I may have to explore this wierdness one day.

jon on 21 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

I reckon both Buoux and Céüse could be gritstone...
andrewmcleod - on 23 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

I presume it is actually this (which used to be called Millstone Grit, and is a gritstone i.e. a hard sandstone of angular grains)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marros_Group

I did stuff on the 'Millstone Grit' (actually Marros group) in my Geology A level a very long time ago back in South Wales. Has anyone climbed any of the South Wales gritstone, and how does it compare with the Peak stuff (equally how does the Mendip grit compare)?
The Pylon King on 23 Mar 2014
In reply to andrewmcleod:

Interesting stuff! :)
r0x0r.wolfo - on 23 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

Just the one route?
Bulls Crack - on 23 Mar 2014
In reply to andrewmcleod:

Does it outcrop in the Mendips? Still looks like limestone to me!
The Pylon King on 23 Mar 2014
In reply to Bulls Crack:

How on earth can you tell what it is from a picture? weird!

It's very very old quarry in the Mendips and it is 100% definitely Gritstone - unless all the local history/geological reference books are incorrect (the quarry was for Quartzite and Gritstone).

The slab that Deepstar cleaned has 4 routes on it. There doesn't really look like there is any other potential unfortunately.
Post edited at 11:24
andrewmcleod - on 23 Mar 2014
In reply to Bulls Crack:

As far I my rapid Googling reveals, in Wales (including SE wales) the rock-formerly-known-as-Millstone-Grit overlies the Carboniferous limestone - which is the same limestone that makes up Pembroke, the limestone of South Wales, Avon and Cheddar, so I don't see why there can't be an outcrop in the Mendips? But I am no geologist :P
andrewmcleod - on 23 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

Just out of curiosity, do you know exactly which rock group it is? The Marros group is supposed to be composed of the Twrch Sandstone (formerly Basal Grit), and above that the Bishopton Mudstone and the Telpyn Point Sandstone formations (together formerly the Shale Group).

PS in my search for other Marros group series climbs, I found this, which should presumably be Telpyn Point Sandstone:
http://www.southwalesmountaineering.org.uk/wiki/Telpyn_Point_-_Amroth

...or coastal grit? :P
bpmclimb - on 23 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

There's some boulders in a field belonging to my relatives, who live near Tintern. I'm pretty sure they are gritstone. Any grit outcrops in SE Wales?
Jon_Warner - on 23 Mar 2014
In reply to bpmclimb:

I struggle to see much of a difference between the SE Wales Sandstone crags (The Gap, Tirpentwys, Cwamam, Navigation Quarry) and also the Bristol Sandstone (Winterbourne) and Gritstone.

Geologists, feel free to prove me wrong.
bpmclimb - on 23 Mar 2014
In reply to Jon_Warner:

These boulders are grey - no hint of brown/red/orange - and the rock is iron-hard and not remotely sandy. There are also numerous embedded pebbles. The surface texture is very rough.
deepstar - on 23 Mar 2014
In reply to bpmclimb:

> These boulders are grey - no hint of brown/red/orange - and the rock is iron-hard and not remotely sandy. There are also numerous embedded pebbles. The surface texture is very rough.

Three Pebble Slablet,what grade is it?
Tom Last - on 23 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:
> There doesn't really look like there is any other potential unfortunately.

Chinny reckon ;)
Post edited at 21:20
The Pylon King on 23 Mar 2014
In reply to bpmclimb:

Probably only Gabbro, nothing to get excited about.
The Pylon King on 23 Mar 2014
In reply to Tom Last:

No, honestly :)
CurlyStevo - on 24 Mar 2014
In reply to Jon_Warner:

Winterbourne sandstone isn't really anything like grit. Smaller particles less pebbles much softer and sandier. I guess the main simililarity is the fact they are both sandstone.
Tom Last - on 24 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

Fair dues, just checking like ;)
CurlyStevo - on 24 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

I guess you realise its probably not millstone grit.

https://vle.whs.bucks.sch.uk/pluginfile.php/53615/mod_resource/content/0/F.%20Rock%20Cycle%20VLE/Geo...

More likely pennent sandstone IMO.
The Pylon King on 24 Mar 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Yes, Yes, Yes, i am very aware of the Penant in the area (ive been developing most of it) but this is definitely grit. Do some research into the Mendips - its a thin band of grit right next to Quartzite and Coal bands.

for example:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=AGDbAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=millstone+grit+mendips&source=bl...

Read the paragraph starting with "From the wooded glade....."
Post edited at 10:07
CurlyStevo - on 24 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

OK I've had another look and i see the references to gritstone in the area which aren't show on the map I linked.

A lot of the rock in south wales used to be classified as gritstone however its now classified as the Marros Group. I suspect your outcrop will be similar.
The Pylon King on 24 Mar 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Quite possibly, but Marros is still a kind of Gritstone, and it was quarried for Millstones!

I need to take a sample to Bristol Uni.
Post edited at 10:14
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mark s - on 24 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

why isnt it shown on a map where it is,people can see for them selves.it looks a bag shite anyway
CurlyStevo - on 24 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

Nope marros is not a type of gritstone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marros_Group

The actual state of play in the geological classification of the rocks in the area seems some what in flux

http://nora.nerc.ac.uk/16661/

However if you read the text its pretty clear these rocks do possibly differ a bit from the Marros group but appear to be atleast as different to grit as the Marros group are.
The Pylon King on 24 Mar 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Yes but 'Gritstone' is just course sandstone.
The Pylon King on 24 Mar 2014
In reply to mark s:

> why isnt it shown on a map where it is,people can see for them selves.it looks a bag shite anyway

Yep, certainly not a crag for honeypotters!
CurlyStevo - on 24 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

Bit more info on how the two rocks (Marros Group formally know as south wales gritstone and Carboniferous Millstone Grit) were formed.

“The Millstone Grit dates from the Namurian stage of the Carboniferous period. At this time a series of isolated uplands existed across the British Isles region. One particular east-west aligned landmass stretched from Wales through the English Midlands and East Anglia to the continent and is now known as the Wales-Brabant High though was formerly referred to as St George’s Land. Other uplands, the erosion of which would provide the source material for the Millstone Grit, lay to the north and northeast of the region. The Pennine basin received input of sand and mud largely from southerly directed rivers from these northern landmasses.Rivers running north off the Wales-Brabant High deposited material in the southern parts of the Pennine basin from northeast Wales to the Peak District. Southerly flowing rivers from this same landmass were responsible for the Millstone Grit/Marros Group succession in South Wales.During much of the Carboniferous period, world sea-levels were fluctuating in response to the growth and decline of a series of major ice-caps over the continents then clustered around the South Pole. Britain lay in the equatorial region. At times of high sea-level, silt and mud accumulated within the Pennine basin whilst at times of low sea-level, major deltas prograded across the region, their legacy being the thick sandstone beds of the Millstone Grit Group.“
CurlyStevo - on 24 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

I kind of agree with you, for all intents and purposes these both form course sandstones so in places atleast the rock is a type of Gritstone. That said the term millstone grit also refers to shale!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geology_of_Somerset
"Geologists refer to the whole suite of rocks that encompass the individual sandstone beds and the intervening mudstones as the Millstone Grit Group"

I think in the uk when climbers refer to the rock Gritstone they normally specifically mean the rock that people climb around the peak district and a bit further north too in to the yorkshire dales (although there is rock that is rightly classified as gritstone elsewhere too). Its pretty clear the rock you have found isn't formed the same way as typical gritstone and doesn't look the same either.
Kemics - on 24 Mar 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Party pooper ;)

Down hill racist is still a great route name. Though next you'll be telling us they chipped it
The Pylon King on 24 Mar 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Yes there is all of the Rhinnog/Barmouth Grit in Snowdonia.

> Its pretty clear the rock you have found isn't formed the same way as typical gritstone and doesn't look the same either.


It feels the same at least! :)
aln - on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

You should come to C Scotland. I can show you loads of unclimbed esoterica.
The Pylon King on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to aln:

I would if i lived there and was writing a guidebook to the area.
wurzelinzummerset on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Millstone grit does not refer to shale. The Millstone Grit Group contains shale and Millstone Grit (and other stuff), just like the Lias Group contains shale and a limestone commonly known as Blue lias. Group and formation names are often derived from the main lithology within the group or formation.

I think millstone grit is a term for rock that was used for, believe it or not, millstones. Just like limestone is a name for rock used for lime. Hence, if it walks like a duck and quacks like one, then it probably is one. In a technical geological context if you're comparing rock from two dfifferent locations then it gets a lot more complicated. From a climber's point of view it's purely lithology, that's to say its composition, grain size/shape etc. It makes no difference how old it is or where it comes from.
CurlyStevo - on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to wurzelinzummerset:
Yeah I forgot to add the 'group' term I realised after posting but hey it was too late to change.

millstone grit geologically is not simply a rock type used for millstones, did you not read my links?

PS that duck looks more like pigeon to me ;)
Post edited at 10:02
CurlyStevo - on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to wurzelinzummerset:

More info here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millstone_Grit


South Wales

The term 'Millstone Grit' was also adopted in South Wales where rocks of similar age and lithology are found though the Millstone Grit series of this region has recently been formally renamed by the British Geological Survey as the Marros Group. The thickest bed of sandstone within it was known as the Basal Grit. This has now been renamed as the Twrch Sandstone. The Farewell Rock was formerly considered to be the uppermost unit of the Millstone Grit series of South Wales though it is now included within the overlying South Wales Coal Measures.
Main article: Marros Group


Anyway as mentioned the group around the Mendips is possibly different to the Marros Group but it appears to have more similarities to it than millstone grit as it was likely formed from southerly flowing rivers from a lateral mountain range across mid to north England/Wales starting around North Wales. Millstone grit was mostly formed from rivers flowing south from a different more northerly mountain range although some rivers did flow north from the more southerly mountain range too.
The Pylon King on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Well, it says its Millstone Grit in all the local historical/geological books so it will go in the local climbing book as Millstone Grit!!

Local Millstone Grit for local people! ;)
CurlyStevo - on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

Enjoy its all yours ;)
The Pylon King on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:

well......it's actually all Deepstar's!

deepstar - on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

> well......it's actually all Deepstar's!
Cheers Mark but I've found us a new project now,bigger, steeper cleaner and another mystery rock type.
Cheese Monkey - on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to deepstar:

Slate?
deepstar - on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to Cheese Monkey:

> Slate?

No,not Slate.
Cheese Monkey - on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to deepstar:

Ooo this is going to be a fun game.

Granite?
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deepstar - on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to Cheese Monkey:

> Ooo this is going to be a fun game.

> Granite?

How many rock types are there,I dont know but it is weired stuff,more research required.
Cheese Monkey - on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to deepstar:

Ah so you dont know what it is yet! Leading me along with your cryptic mystery... Sounds interesting though!
The Pylon King on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to deepstar:

Nice one Deepstar, weve done gritstone, now bored of that.
bpmclimb - on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to deepstar:

rusty pegs embedded in a matrix of petrified faeces?
deepstar - on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to bpmclimb:

> rusty pegs embedded in a matrix of petrified faeces?

Sounds like heaven!
leland stamper on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:


> Yes but 'Gritstone' is just course sandstone.

Coarse not "course", please. I feel the Eastville sandstone may have a gritstone feel to it, as well.

The Pylon King on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to leland stamper:
> Coarse not "course", please. I feel the Eastville sandstone may have a gritstone feel to it, as well.

Penant Sandstone - much finer grain size.
Post edited at 21:26
deepstar - on 25 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

> Penant Sandstone - much finer grain size.

Pedant Sandstone -even finer.
leland stamper on 26 Mar 2014
In reply to deepstar:
> Pedant Sandstone -even finer.

That's the trouble with geology. You may get pedantic about what it's called, but what it actually is , is another matter. It may be called Pennant Sandstone (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-6gqvAbdS-MC&pg=PA222&lpg=PA222&dq=pennant+sandstone+... but still contain beds of mudstone through to conglomerate. Climbing on conglomerate is not the same as climbing a fine sandstone.
Show us the rock!

Marti999 - on 26 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

I don't know what books your reading but just looking at the rock it clearly not gritstone. It shows no sign of grit. But show all the marks of limestone has anyony done an acid test on it?
I bump in to a local quarry man out walking his dog and he said there is no gritstone around.
deepstar - on 26 Mar 2014
In reply to Marti999:

> I don't know what books your reading but just looking at the rock it clearly not gritstone. It shows no sign of grit. But show all the marks of limestone has anyony done an acid test on it?

> I bump in to a local quarry man out walking his dog and he said there is no gritstone around.

Check the local history Marti.I will post a photo shortly.A modern local quarryman will rightly tell you that there is no gritstone quarried on Mendip today,however he would be incorrect to say that it has never been quarried there.I spent many hours visiting museums,reading local history and even had a Profesor of Geology visit the site so am quite certain that Gilson's Slab is Gritstone.
CurlyStevo - on 26 Mar 2014
In reply to deepstar:

What used to be called millstone grit only 50 miles north is now called twrch sandstone and the rock in the medips is far more similar to that than millstone grit.

However you are right gritstone isn't a name for a specific rock type as such and is just coarse grained sandstone and what you have discovered in the mendips is coarse grained sandstone. There is plenty of similar rock in the wye / south wales area.

UK climbers of course are generally referring to millstone grit when they call a rock gritstone and it seems highly likey this rock in the mendips does differ from that.
CurlyStevo - on 26 Mar 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Correction what used to be called Basal Grit is now called twrch sandstone and the group in south wales that was referred to as the millstone group group (that contained Basal Grit) is now referred to as the Marros group (and contains Twrch sandstone).
Post edited at 10:09
Marti999 - on 27 Mar 2014
In reply to deepstar:

How does that explain the calcite pockets and that it looks nothing like gritstone ( or course sandstone) nice find though.
The Pylon King on 27 Mar 2014
In reply to Marti999:
Do you mean the Quartzite pockets?

I am going to take the samples to Bristol University for identification so should hopefully know exactly what it is soon.
Post edited at 09:37
wurzelinzummerset on 27 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

I think some people who are doubting this are getting too hung up on trying to assign their own degree of accuracy to a name that's not supposed to have the level of accuracy they think it does. Anyway, I dug out an old geology book (1977), Geology of the Country around Wells and Cheddar. The Millstone Grit series is present in the area, and the sandstones (the "Millstone grit") are described as having quartz grain sizes commonly around 0.3mm diameter, but ranging up to 3mm, which I think matches what you told me yesterday.
deepstar - on 27 Mar 2014
In reply to Marti999:

A quote from a local history book."MILLSTONE GRIT AND QUARTZITE" this type of stone was used for grindstones in cornmills.The deep narrow trenches running east to west in ******** **** are where narrow bands of Millstone Grit have been quarried.
dereke12000 - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

Sounds interesting, whatever it is. To repeat marti999's question: could you do an acid test on the rock??

BTW Which was the crag you lost access to when it became public??
The Pylon King on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to dereke12000:

> Sounds interesting, whatever it is. To repeat marti999's question: could you do an acid test on the rock??

Yes, i am trying to trck down some sulphuric acid but i am not spending any money.

The Pylon King on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:
sorry i mean hydrochloric acid.
Post edited at 10:07
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deepstar - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to dereke12000:



> BTW Which was the crag you lost access to when it became public??

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=231077 UKC seem to have removed it from the site now,nice of them to tell me!
ebdon - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to The Pylon King:

If your thus inclined you can see the 1:50000 geological map here:
http://www.bgs.ac.uk/discoveringGeology/geologyOfBritain/viewer.html?src=topNav
(search for Frome, i cant work out how to copy the link to the location)
The Pylon King on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to ebdon:

Yeah seen that already thanks.

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