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I'm building a dedicated piste/lift-served ski and would like to fit alpine bindings for easier release/engagement and no leash faff. I have two set-up's fitted with tech bindings already but for demands this (Southern hemisphere) winter, it's just going to be easier I have alpine bindings on an all mountain ski (WhiteDot Preacher's). I only own AT boots and would like to keep it this way.
So I'm looking for an alpine binding that will accept my Dynafit Titan's... I've found the Marker Lord SP, is there anything else I can consider? I don't know much about this type of binding and I've only ever skied Dynafit/Plum. I don't need a high DIN setting.
As always, any input appreciated.
So I'm looking for an alpine binding that will accept my Dynafit Titan's... I've found the Marker Lord SP, is there anything else I can consider? I don't know much about this type of binding and I've only ever skied Dynafit/Plum. I don't need a high DIN setting.
As always, any input appreciated.
In reply to frqnt:
As far as I'm aware no "alpine" binding will accept an AT boot and give you reliable release settings. The rockered/rubber sole on the AT boot messes up the toe twist release.
However, I skied most of last season with a pair of dynafit mercurys in Atomic (Salamon) FFG 14 alpine bindings as you can raise the toe height enough to allow it to release reasonably well. Had to keep the toe DIN quite low though.
I would seriously consider trying to find an old pair of race alpine boots and then you can have any binding you want. Race boots have not changed much over the years so you can easily pick up unused 3-5 season old alpine boots for €100. You will ski harder, better and trash your touring boots less.
I spent 2 seasons trying to do everything in AT boots before seeing the light!
P.S. for reliable release with an AT boot and more "downhill" like performance, you could always get any of the following AT bindings:
Marker Duke/Baron (Or F10/F12 tour if you want something lighter)
Salomon Guardian
Fristchi Freeride (but just don't , cause they're shit)
Or, if you have the money - the dynafit beast!
As far as I'm aware no "alpine" binding will accept an AT boot and give you reliable release settings. The rockered/rubber sole on the AT boot messes up the toe twist release.
However, I skied most of last season with a pair of dynafit mercurys in Atomic (Salamon) FFG 14 alpine bindings as you can raise the toe height enough to allow it to release reasonably well. Had to keep the toe DIN quite low though.
I would seriously consider trying to find an old pair of race alpine boots and then you can have any binding you want. Race boots have not changed much over the years so you can easily pick up unused 3-5 season old alpine boots for €100. You will ski harder, better and trash your touring boots less.
I spent 2 seasons trying to do everything in AT boots before seeing the light!
P.S. for reliable release with an AT boot and more "downhill" like performance, you could always get any of the following AT bindings:
Marker Duke/Baron (Or F10/F12 tour if you want something lighter)
Salomon Guardian
Fristchi Freeride (but just don't , cause they're shit)
Or, if you have the money - the dynafit beast!
Post edited at 07:09
In reply to frqnt:
I think the often repeated fact that touring boots won't release in downhill bindings is a bit of an urban myth, as long as the binding actually fits the boot at the toe you should be okay,especially if you keep the DIN low. Certainly I skied for 2 weeks recently on various skis using Scarpa Mastraelis as I lent my touring skis to my son when he visited me in the Alps. There were various other skis in the chalet with normal downhill alpine bindings, I think most of the bindings were Marker but didn't pay a lot of attention when adjusting them other than the fit. I did have a couple of releases with no problems. However there was one binding which was too low at the front for the rockered sole and wouldn't fit.
I also see the piste security skiing in Scarpa's or other touring boots every day on Alpine bindings, so they obviously find it ok.
Regarding Fultonious's other advice regarding touring bindings I like Fritschi Freeride Pro bindings and am not sure why he describes them as shit. I tried the F12 tour binding on a test day on some Movement skis and thought they were quite inferior build quality to the Fritschi which I have hammered nearly every day over the last 2 seasons with no problems. I seem to think they were heavier than mine as well.
I hate ski boots and haven't worn any for nearly 20 years now, but it is true that you would possibly ski slightly better in them, but as I walk in my boots most days I ski I prefer comfortable boots.
I think the often repeated fact that touring boots won't release in downhill bindings is a bit of an urban myth, as long as the binding actually fits the boot at the toe you should be okay,especially if you keep the DIN low. Certainly I skied for 2 weeks recently on various skis using Scarpa Mastraelis as I lent my touring skis to my son when he visited me in the Alps. There were various other skis in the chalet with normal downhill alpine bindings, I think most of the bindings were Marker but didn't pay a lot of attention when adjusting them other than the fit. I did have a couple of releases with no problems. However there was one binding which was too low at the front for the rockered sole and wouldn't fit.
I also see the piste security skiing in Scarpa's or other touring boots every day on Alpine bindings, so they obviously find it ok.
Regarding Fultonious's other advice regarding touring bindings I like Fritschi Freeride Pro bindings and am not sure why he describes them as shit. I tried the F12 tour binding on a test day on some Movement skis and thought they were quite inferior build quality to the Fritschi which I have hammered nearly every day over the last 2 seasons with no problems. I seem to think they were heavier than mine as well.
I hate ski boots and haven't worn any for nearly 20 years now, but it is true that you would possibly ski slightly better in them, but as I walk in my boots most days I ski I prefer comfortable boots.
In reply to frqnt:
I use 1 set of skis for everything, and use freeride pros with my touring boots for piste days and touring/steeper stuff. With the boots cranked up tight, they are fine. When I next decide to replace my set up, I will look at tech bindings, mainly for the weight saving I am missing out on, but not because I feel that I am missing out on any performance with the bindings. Tech bindings may be better than the freerides in some circumstances, but the freerides are not "shit". You don't need leashes as you can get brakes for the bindings.
I use 1 set of skis for everything, and use freeride pros with my touring boots for piste days and touring/steeper stuff. With the boots cranked up tight, they are fine. When I next decide to replace my set up, I will look at tech bindings, mainly for the weight saving I am missing out on, but not because I feel that I am missing out on any performance with the bindings. Tech bindings may be better than the freerides in some circumstances, but the freerides are not "shit". You don't need leashes as you can get brakes for the bindings.
In reply to Fultonius:
True, luckily Dynafiddle Titan has changable soles (full DIN rated alpine soles). So if the OP changes the soles (about 8 screws per boot), they can use what ever alpine binder they wish.
> As far as I'm aware no "alpine" binding will accept an AT boot and give you reliable release settings. The rockered/rubber sole on the AT boot messes up the toe twist release.
True, luckily Dynafiddle Titan has changable soles (full DIN rated alpine soles). So if the OP changes the soles (about 8 screws per boot), they can use what ever alpine binder they wish.
In reply to frqnt:
Changeable soles are not a bad option - I used these on Scarpa Tornados and it's no big hassle. I've also used my Alpine boots in Fritschi Freeride Pros without problems and would concur with others that these are good bindings if a bit heavy for hut to hut which I prefer my Dynafots for. Quiver Killers are also worth looking at to allow different bindings on the same skis as a different approach
P
Changeable soles are not a bad option - I used these on Scarpa Tornados and it's no big hassle. I've also used my Alpine boots in Fritschi Freeride Pros without problems and would concur with others that these are good bindings if a bit heavy for hut to hut which I prefer my Dynafots for. Quiver Killers are also worth looking at to allow different bindings on the same skis as a different approach
P
In reply to frqnt:
Some of the Marker bindings will take an AT boot
http://www.markerusa.com/catalog/2013-2014/binding/lord-s-p/
Some of the Marker bindings will take an AT boot
http://www.markerusa.com/catalog/2013-2014/binding/lord-s-p/
In reply to frqnt:
If you can wait 'till next season the Salomon Warden will provide an AT compatible alternative to the Marker Lord SP.
vimeo.com/85964027
If you can wait 'till next season the Salomon Warden will provide an AT compatible alternative to the Marker Lord SP.
vimeo.com/85964027
In reply to frqnt:
It's as much to do with the increased friction on the sole on an 'alpine' binding from a touring boots rubber 'vibram' as opposed to the mechanical movement of the toe piece.
Hence the reason for swapping the toe unit as HeMa mentions.
Like other folks I swap between touring and alpine boots with Fritschi Freeride Pros.
It's as much to do with the increased friction on the sole on an 'alpine' binding from a touring boots rubber 'vibram' as opposed to the mechanical movement of the toe piece.
Hence the reason for swapping the toe unit as HeMa mentions.
Like other folks I swap between touring and alpine boots with Fritschi Freeride Pros.
Post edited at 16:18
In reply to All:
Maybe the freeride pros are ok, I don't know, I haven't skied them. Just friends who work in shops don't recommend them. Seems there's plenty happy customers here.
However, since, as someone above has mentioned, your boots have swappable soles just get a cheap old binding (I picked up some Salomon Equip 900s new for £20 of ebay last year) and you'll be sorted!
A solid AT binding would give you more flexibility so you could do short tour on your preachers to seek out fresh lines near the piste or do short tours. But it'll cost you a lot more.
Maybe the freeride pros are ok, I don't know, I haven't skied them. Just friends who work in shops don't recommend them. Seems there's plenty happy customers here.
However, since, as someone above has mentioned, your boots have swappable soles just get a cheap old binding (I picked up some Salomon Equip 900s new for £20 of ebay last year) and you'll be sorted!
A solid AT binding would give you more flexibility so you could do short tour on your preachers to seek out fresh lines near the piste or do short tours. But it'll cost you a lot more.
In reply to Henry Iddon:
Both the Marker Lord and the Salomon Warden have an AFD that runs in a track, this basically negates the sole friction problem.
That said, there isn't a huge amount of toe height adjustment in the Marker Lord, so despite what Marker claims about the bindings being AT compatible, some folks have to take a bit of rubber off their AT boots with a belt sander to make them fit.
The Titan sole blocks are held in place with wood screws screwed into plastic, ok for occasional swaps, but I wouldn't want to swap regularly.
> It's as much to do with the increased friction on the sole on an 'alpine' binding from a touring boots rubber 'vibram' as opposed to the mechanical movement of the toe piece.
Both the Marker Lord and the Salomon Warden have an AFD that runs in a track, this basically negates the sole friction problem.
That said, there isn't a huge amount of toe height adjustment in the Marker Lord, so despite what Marker claims about the bindings being AT compatible, some folks have to take a bit of rubber off their AT boots with a belt sander to make them fit.
The Titan sole blocks are held in place with wood screws screwed into plastic, ok for occasional swaps, but I wouldn't want to swap regularly.
In reply to frqnt:
I have Marker F10s on my Preachers, they feel great and to me indistinguishable to alpine bindings. I've never bothered putting the touring soles on my Black Diamond Factor boots, the alpine soles are fine and I've done a lot of boot packing and skinning with them. Interchangeable soles seem a bit pointless as the "mountain" sole is still too flat compared to the rocker soles on my Scarpa Denali ski touring boots. I haven't and don't intend to try the Denalis with my Preachers!
I have Marker F10s on my Preachers, they feel great and to me indistinguishable to alpine bindings. I've never bothered putting the touring soles on my Black Diamond Factor boots, the alpine soles are fine and I've done a lot of boot packing and skinning with them. Interchangeable soles seem a bit pointless as the "mountain" sole is still too flat compared to the rocker soles on my Scarpa Denali ski touring boots. I haven't and don't intend to try the Denalis with my Preachers!
In reply to Oceanic:
Waiting until next season isn't really an option. But thanks for the heads up. And as you stated about the sole fastening, I don't fancy changing them at all! So my preference is to use the AT sole at all times.
I don't think there is much point me buying the Freerides, regardless of how they perform, as I have two dedicated touring set-ups (Dynafit Manaslu + Vertical ST, LaSportiva Hi5 + Plum Guide).
I'm in Ski Patrol training so I'll be walking a lot and be in-and-out of the bindings routinely. The Dynafit's will be okay as they have brakes fitted but the Plums with leashes will be too cumbersome, hence I'm building a new all set-up.
Looks like the Lord is the only suitable option at present...
Waiting until next season isn't really an option. But thanks for the heads up. And as you stated about the sole fastening, I don't fancy changing them at all! So my preference is to use the AT sole at all times.
I don't think there is much point me buying the Freerides, regardless of how they perform, as I have two dedicated touring set-ups (Dynafit Manaslu + Vertical ST, LaSportiva Hi5 + Plum Guide).
I'm in Ski Patrol training so I'll be walking a lot and be in-and-out of the bindings routinely. The Dynafit's will be okay as they have brakes fitted but the Plums with leashes will be too cumbersome, hence I'm building a new all set-up.
Looks like the Lord is the only suitable option at present...
In reply to frqnt:
Other supreme beings are available...
> Looks like the Lord is the only suitable option at present...
Other supreme beings are available...
In reply to frqnt:
What about the Baron/F10 and Guardian options mentioned above. I use Barons with AT boots (Dalbello Sherpa) and find them perfect for lift served off-piste. You do need to experiment with the toe height adjuster to get the best fit for your boot but that is pretty straight forward. Getting in and out is exactly the same as an Alpine binding but you also have the tour option.
> Looks like the Lord is the only suitable option at present...
What about the Baron/F10 and Guardian options mentioned above. I use Barons with AT boots (Dalbello Sherpa) and find them perfect for lift served off-piste. You do need to experiment with the toe height adjuster to get the best fit for your boot but that is pretty straight forward. Getting in and out is exactly the same as an Alpine binding but you also have the tour option.
In reply to frqnt:
"And as you stated about the sole fastening, I don't fancy changing them at all! So my preference is to use the AT sole at all times."
You can buy boots with interchangeable soles that are literally 5 minute 1 tool activities. If you do go that way make sure that you are not just screwing into plastic but have a proper mechanical connection. Mine have t nuts in the sole unit and the soles bolt on to those. Very rigid and very quick to change.
"And as you stated about the sole fastening, I don't fancy changing them at all! So my preference is to use the AT sole at all times."
You can buy boots with interchangeable soles that are literally 5 minute 1 tool activities. If you do go that way make sure that you are not just screwing into plastic but have a proper mechanical connection. Mine have t nuts in the sole unit and the soles bolt on to those. Very rigid and very quick to change.
In reply to frqnt:
FFS, how have there been so many replies to this thread and so little clarity (with some notable exceptions)???
There are
1/ 'alpine' bindings - which only take 'alpine' boot soles
2/ trad 'alpine touring' (AT) bindings - which take AT boots (but some are also adjustable so they take an alpine boot too) - however effectively there are options here which are really free ride/backcountry oriented bindings which take AT sole but are largely aimed at doing downhill - see below.
3/ dynafit/tech/pin bindings which take a dynafit tech binding compatible boot (but aren't so suitable for piste bashing)
So for your Titans (a free ride/AT hybrid boot) there are a number of options under option 2.
Basically choose between
Fritschi - Eagle (classic touring), Freeride
Marker - the heavier, more freeride oriented Duke and Baron (i.e. really aimed at downhill with a wee bit of uphill) or the lighter more hybrid tour oriented Tour F10/12s (but not pure AT cos otherwise you'd go with a lightweight pin binding!).
These have a height adjustable front piece so can take either alpine or AT boots. And the release is generally as good as a good alpine binding - that's Markers heritage after all.
I recently opted for some F10s to mount on some Whitedot Rangers. Given you, like me, don't need high DIN then I reckon this is a good option. But if weight really isn't an issue since you have dedicated touring set-up(s) then heavier Duke/Baron or Fritschi Freerides. I do too but still would like a lightweight backcountry set-up.
See also here for good advice:
http://mountaintracks.co.uk/blog/ski-touring-bindings-facts
And a 2013/14 season update here:
http://mountaintracks.co.uk/blog/ski-binding-and-touring-binding-update-201...
See Backcountry UK, Facewest or Braemar Sports online.
Finally though, how does someone manage to know so little about bindings and yet know enough to choose a ski like the Whitedot Preachers???
cheers
FFS, how have there been so many replies to this thread and so little clarity (with some notable exceptions)???
There are
1/ 'alpine' bindings - which only take 'alpine' boot soles
2/ trad 'alpine touring' (AT) bindings - which take AT boots (but some are also adjustable so they take an alpine boot too) - however effectively there are options here which are really free ride/backcountry oriented bindings which take AT sole but are largely aimed at doing downhill - see below.
3/ dynafit/tech/pin bindings which take a dynafit tech binding compatible boot (but aren't so suitable for piste bashing)
So for your Titans (a free ride/AT hybrid boot) there are a number of options under option 2.
Basically choose between
Fritschi - Eagle (classic touring), Freeride
Marker - the heavier, more freeride oriented Duke and Baron (i.e. really aimed at downhill with a wee bit of uphill) or the lighter more hybrid tour oriented Tour F10/12s (but not pure AT cos otherwise you'd go with a lightweight pin binding!).
These have a height adjustable front piece so can take either alpine or AT boots. And the release is generally as good as a good alpine binding - that's Markers heritage after all.
I recently opted for some F10s to mount on some Whitedot Rangers. Given you, like me, don't need high DIN then I reckon this is a good option. But if weight really isn't an issue since you have dedicated touring set-up(s) then heavier Duke/Baron or Fritschi Freerides. I do too but still would like a lightweight backcountry set-up.
See also here for good advice:
http://mountaintracks.co.uk/blog/ski-touring-bindings-facts
And a 2013/14 season update here:
http://mountaintracks.co.uk/blog/ski-binding-and-touring-binding-update-201...
See Backcountry UK, Facewest or Braemar Sports online.
Finally though, how does someone manage to know so little about bindings and yet know enough to choose a ski like the Whitedot Preachers???
cheers
In reply to IainMacG:
Bye the way I have Fritshi Eagles on my Scott Missions and regularly switch between my touring and alpine boots. Never tried Pin Bindings
Bye the way I have Fritshi Eagles on my Scott Missions and regularly switch between my touring and alpine boots. Never tried Pin Bindings
Post edited at 18:07
In reply to IainMacG:
4/ Salomon / Atomic / Look WTR touring bindings which are only designed to work with alpine boots and a few (mainly Salomon made) WTR designated touring boots.
5/ Ski Patroller bindings (Only the Marker Lord SP at present) which have no touring mode but are designed to work with alpine boots and AT boots.
> There are
> 1/ 'alpine' bindings - which only take 'alpine' boot soles
> 2/ trad 'alpine touring' (AT) bindings - which take AT boots (but some are also adjustable so they take an alpine boot too) - however effectively there are options here which are really free ride/backcountry oriented bindings which take AT sole but are largely aimed at doing downhill - see below.
> 3/ dynafit/tech/pin bindings which take a dynafit tech binding compatible boot (but aren't so suitable for piste bashing)
4/ Salomon / Atomic / Look WTR touring bindings which are only designed to work with alpine boots and a few (mainly Salomon made) WTR designated touring boots.
5/ Ski Patroller bindings (Only the Marker Lord SP at present) which have no touring mode but are designed to work with alpine boots and AT boots.
Post edited at 18:07
In reply to Oceanic:
OK, clever clogs, good point re 5/ SP
Just not sure I see the point in them!
6/ Trab TR2
OK, clever clogs, good point re 5/ SP
Just not sure I see the point in them!
6/ Trab TR2
In reply to IainMacG:
I see the Mountain Tracks advice is saying that the F10 and F12 are prone to breakage, and interestingly that is what I thought when I tested them, they seemed flimsy.
Another guiding company has the same concerns
http://www.alpine-guides.com/skiing/advice/ski-touring-equipment-advice.htm
I see the Mountain Tracks advice is saying that the F10 and F12 are prone to breakage, and interestingly that is what I thought when I tested them, they seemed flimsy.
Another guiding company has the same concerns
http://www.alpine-guides.com/skiing/advice/ski-touring-equipment-advice.htm
In reply to Gael Force:
Although the website was updated Nov 13 it does say that the F10/12 bindings were subject to breaking IN THE FIRST SEASON THEY WERE LAUNCHED. The F10/12 were re-engineered after first season with components substantially beefed up. Breakage is no longer an issue
Although the website was updated Nov 13 it does say that the F10/12 bindings were subject to breaking IN THE FIRST SEASON THEY WERE LAUNCHED. The F10/12 were re-engineered after first season with components substantially beefed up. Breakage is no longer an issue
In reply to IainMacG:
I agree, it looks like some of the replies are to the subject of my post, negating what I've sritten in the body.
Why do you not see the point in the Lord SP?
As I will not be touring on this set-up, I don't see the point getting a binding that tours like the Freeride that will also raise the ride height? If I wanted to tour on the Preachers I'd mount the Beast 16 or Plum Yak (touring in Titans on that set-up would get you strong quick!).
To asnwer your other questions; I'm in ski patrol training and the wholesaler offered me 55% off the Preachers. I had intended to just ski my La Sportiva Hi5's and Plum Guides but then this came up so I figured I'd build a dedicated downhill ski. And I only started skiing to access mountains so all my skiing and market research has been around lwt touring gear, to date.
I agree, it looks like some of the replies are to the subject of my post, negating what I've sritten in the body.
Why do you not see the point in the Lord SP?
As I will not be touring on this set-up, I don't see the point getting a binding that tours like the Freeride that will also raise the ride height? If I wanted to tour on the Preachers I'd mount the Beast 16 or Plum Yak (touring in Titans on that set-up would get you strong quick!).
To asnwer your other questions; I'm in ski patrol training and the wholesaler offered me 55% off the Preachers. I had intended to just ski my La Sportiva Hi5's and Plum Guides but then this came up so I figured I'd build a dedicated downhill ski. And I only started skiing to access mountains so all my skiing and market research has been around lwt touring gear, to date.
In reply to frqnt:
>that will also raise the ride height?
Why is that a problem?
If I wanted to tour on the Preachers I'd mount the Beast 16 or Plum Yak (touring in Titans on that set-up would get you strong quick!).
>I had intended to just ski my La Sportiva Hi5's and Plum Guides
>but then this came up so I figured I'd build a dedicated downhill ski.
Yes, good idea.
>And I only started skiing to access mountains
>so all my skiing and market research has been around lwt touring gear, to date.
I guessed given your lack of knowledge on the bindings side
> Why do you not see the point in the Lord SP?
Don't see any real disadvantage to the tour mode in available in the free ride oriented bindings such as Marker Dukes etc... so why lose the option of being able to unlock heel for skinning? > As I will not be touring on this set-up, I don't see the point getting a binding that tours like the Freeride
Yes, but building on above point, you have a touring set-up, but what about when you want downhill gear and you have a short skin to access it? Why not have the option???>that will also raise the ride height?
Why is that a problem?
If I wanted to tour on the Preachers I'd mount the Beast 16 or Plum Yak (touring in Titans on that set-up would get you strong quick!).
> To asnwer your other questions; I'm in ski patrol training and the wholesaler offered me 55% off the Preachers.
OK, was just interested, not a very serious question! Quality ski >I had intended to just ski my La Sportiva Hi5's and Plum Guides
>but then this came up so I figured I'd build a dedicated downhill ski.
Yes, good idea.
>And I only started skiing to access mountains
>so all my skiing and market research has been around lwt touring gear, to date.
I guessed given your lack of knowledge on the bindings side
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