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I run quite a bit, cycle a bit, even walk up the odd hill and climb the odd route, but I don't much resistance and core, I should probably do a lot more.
Running is my main focus and the area I want to improve, what do people do to improve their running other than running?
Post edited at 11:33
In reply to The New NickB:
I'm a fan of this guy who promotes primal movement patterns, muscular balance and joint integrity. I wish i could go back 20 years and start training with this approach as i'm riddled with injuries and muscle imbalances now and spend most of my time trying to correct them. During the cold months i'd train as this guy recommends, working on strength and endurance in other planes of movement. As the cold months come in drop the strength off and start sharpening your speed for the race season.
Ignore the half naked guy at the beginning, there's a load of great info on this vid.
youtube.com/watch?v=bmfz9h12r5k&
I'm a fan of this guy who promotes primal movement patterns, muscular balance and joint integrity. I wish i could go back 20 years and start training with this approach as i'm riddled with injuries and muscle imbalances now and spend most of my time trying to correct them. During the cold months i'd train as this guy recommends, working on strength and endurance in other planes of movement. As the cold months come in drop the strength off and start sharpening your speed for the race season.
Ignore the half naked guy at the beginning, there's a load of great info on this vid.
youtube.com/watch?v=bmfz9h12r5k&
Post edited at 11:39
In reply to The New NickB:Hi i wouldnt class myself as a runner,but its part of my training for getting fit for winter,but what ive always done is strength training for the legs just once per week so the body has lots of time to recover essential for strength gain,you dont have to hammer it just nice and steady,work up from say three sets of 5 or 6 reps with a heavy weight,good posture and just try half sqauts,this excercise builds stability strength throughout the whole body,just watch the knees,i currently do just 1x7reps=140kg,2x5reps=144kg,1x4reps150kg, knees strapped.
In reply to blackcat:
With you on doing heavy squats, but why only half ones? I try to go as deep as possible.
With you on doing heavy squats, but why only half ones? I try to go as deep as possible.
In reply to JayPee630:
Agree deep full squats are best, especially for people like me who are prone to ITB problems, because of the additional glute strengthening and entrainment of pyriformis etc for stability. On my coach's advice I did a lot of gym based strength work and limited miles training for the UTLD 100 last year and really felt the benefit over previous years of high mileage approach. I think a lot depends on how prone to overuse injuries you are. Read some of Andy Mouncey's training stuff - he has sometimes trained mainly in the gym for mega distance races. Interval work on a rower is good for pushing threshold with low impact. I've found strength work on the calves really helpful for fell running
Agree deep full squats are best, especially for people like me who are prone to ITB problems, because of the additional glute strengthening and entrainment of pyriformis etc for stability. On my coach's advice I did a lot of gym based strength work and limited miles training for the UTLD 100 last year and really felt the benefit over previous years of high mileage approach. I think a lot depends on how prone to overuse injuries you are. Read some of Andy Mouncey's training stuff - he has sometimes trained mainly in the gym for mega distance races. Interval work on a rower is good for pushing threshold with low impact. I've found strength work on the calves really helpful for fell running
In reply to JayPee630: Thats what i used to do ,but it puts too much pressure on the knees as your coming up out of the squat,and over buils the glutes.
In reply to wbo:
Having to earn a living outside of the sport, that isn't really possible. I remember reading that Paula Radcliffe got 13 hours sleep a night on average.
> From my experience of top level athletes sleep all day
Having to earn a living outside of the sport, that isn't really possible. I remember reading that Paula Radcliffe got 13 hours sleep a night on average.
In reply to The New NickB:
I don't understand why people do two legged squats for running training when split squats are more running specific and also train balance. Low rep,heavy weight Squats are good if you want big heavy legs, split squats are good if you want stability, coordination and injury avoidance. In the opinion of the last physio I saw anyway. Not that squats (and heavy dead lifts) aren't good and they're great for winter prep, along with load carries up hill, but if your aim is running there are better exercises.
I don't understand why people do two legged squats for running training when split squats are more running specific and also train balance. Low rep,heavy weight Squats are good if you want big heavy legs, split squats are good if you want stability, coordination and injury avoidance. In the opinion of the last physio I saw anyway. Not that squats (and heavy dead lifts) aren't good and they're great for winter prep, along with load carries up hill, but if your aim is running there are better exercises.
In reply to The New NickB:
If you're body can take it I would reckon higher quality training such as speed work within a group using the same amount of running time as you do at present would pay dividends, plus, If your mind can take it, some more stretching. Loosing weight would be another one I guess, if you've any to loose. Certainly climbing works against my running as it puts on a few pounds of weight in the wrong places.
If you're body can take it I would reckon higher quality training such as speed work within a group using the same amount of running time as you do at present would pay dividends, plus, If your mind can take it, some more stretching. Loosing weight would be another one I guess, if you've any to loose. Certainly climbing works against my running as it puts on a few pounds of weight in the wrong places.
In reply to Phil1919:
I already do quite a lot of speed work, as much as my body can take I think. Stretching is a bit of a given, although I always have to remind myself. A couple of months of injury has put me a pound or two over racing weight and also limited speed work, but I am working on that.
I already do quite a lot of speed work, as much as my body can take I think. Stretching is a bit of a given, although I always have to remind myself. A couple of months of injury has put me a pound or two over racing weight and also limited speed work, but I am working on that.
In reply to The New NickB:
Walk upstairs instead of taking the lift, this was actually a serious suggestion from Ian Thompson, a one time UK record holder of the marathon.
Walk upstairs instead of taking the lift, this was actually a serious suggestion from Ian Thompson, a one time UK record holder of the marathon.
In reply to Al Evans:
You might enjoy the marathon talk podcasts Al, lots of interviews great marathon runners of the past, Bill Adcocks and Joyce Smith have been on recently and I know Ron Hill and many others have been on in the past. One thing they all had in common it seems was that they had absolutely no useful advice to give to modern runners.
You might enjoy the marathon talk podcasts Al, lots of interviews great marathon runners of the past, Bill Adcocks and Joyce Smith have been on recently and I know Ron Hill and many others have been on in the past. One thing they all had in common it seems was that they had absolutely no useful advice to give to modern runners.
In reply to The New NickB:
Most of the non-running stuff that I do to improve running is an amalgamation of all the exercises I've ever been given by physios over the years.
These are mostly high-rep low-weight resistance exercises targeting the glutes (and specifically the gluteus medius, which seems to be weak point with me) and core.
I tend to throw a selection of these exercises in with post-run stretching. I don't know how much they actually help, but I do know that I tend to go to the physio with new problems rather than with recurrent ones!
Most of the non-running stuff that I do to improve running is an amalgamation of all the exercises I've ever been given by physios over the years.
These are mostly high-rep low-weight resistance exercises targeting the glutes (and specifically the gluteus medius, which seems to be weak point with me) and core.
I tend to throw a selection of these exercises in with post-run stretching. I don't know how much they actually help, but I do know that I tend to go to the physio with new problems rather than with recurrent ones!
In reply to blackcat:
Half squats make my knees hurt a lot more than full - you don't get any bounce to assist you upwards. And what does'overbuild the glutes'mean?
Half squats make my knees hurt a lot more than full - you don't get any bounce to assist you upwards. And what does'overbuild the glutes'mean?
In reply to edunn:
I don't eat anything when I am running, so I could not eat less. I assume you think that when I say not running, you think I am injured or something and unable to run, the reality is I am looking for activity that complements running.
> Eat less than I do when I am running.
I don't eat anything when I am running, so I could not eat less. I assume you think that when I say not running, you think I am injured or something and unable to run, the reality is I am looking for activity that complements running.
In reply to Sharp:
Dunno, ask a top level sprinter?
PS hilarious if you dont think heavy squatting train balance.
PPS it's not the squats that gives you big legs, it's the eating.
Edit:Just read this back and noticed the sarcasm overload. Soz.
> I don't understand why people do two legged squats for running training when split squats are more running specific and also train balance. Low rep,heavy weight Squats are good if you want big heavy legs, split squats are good if you want stability, coordination and injury avoidance. In the opinion of the last physio I saw anyway. Not that squats (and heavy dead lifts) aren't good and they're great for winter prep, along with load carries up hill, but if your aim is running there are better exercises.
Dunno, ask a top level sprinter?
PS hilarious if you dont think heavy squatting train balance.
PPS it's not the squats that gives you big legs, it's the eating.
Edit:Just read this back and noticed the sarcasm overload. Soz.
Post edited at 15:11
In reply to nw:Theres always going to be debate about squating,years ago id say squat deep or dont bother,the deep squat targets the hamstrings and glutus maximus muscle coming out of the deep squat and for me anyway strains the knee cap,but i was doing silly poundages back then,so i now squat thighs parallel what i call half squats.
In reply to blackcat:
Ah, thighs parallel is most peoples' full squats! I thought you meant some silly little dip that some people seem to think is a squat!
Ah, thighs parallel is most peoples' full squats! I thought you meant some silly little dip that some people seem to think is a squat!
In reply to The New NickB:
I've got into using a balance board (cool board) and managed to watch the second half of the Utd game balancing on it on Weds, boy did I feel it yesterday morning.
I have some running specific exercises - lunges, squats, planks. It's too soon for any noticeable results but I'll report back.
I've got into using a balance board (cool board) and managed to watch the second half of the Utd game balancing on it on Weds, boy did I feel it yesterday morning.
I have some running specific exercises - lunges, squats, planks. It's too soon for any noticeable results but I'll report back.
In reply to blackcat:
Ah I'm with you know. Parallel is deeper than most people! I like to go just below parallel myself, feels better either than high or ass to grass.
Ah I'm with you know. Parallel is deeper than most people! I like to go just below parallel myself, feels better either than high or ass to grass.
Post edited at 16:42
In reply to The New NickB:
I guessed this might have been the case but I was just taking the opportunity to give a flippant response!
For me, cycling, swimming, yoga and climbing all go into the pot to keep me fit and then if I need to up the anti for a specific event I will just focus more on that sport. I do try and climb once and week and do yoga once a week as a general rule though as it gives me an opportunity to stretch and focus on strength rather than pure cardio.
I have never used the gym for 'specific' sessions and generally focus more on being fit than being race-perfect.
Hope that helps!?
I guessed this might have been the case but I was just taking the opportunity to give a flippant response!
For me, cycling, swimming, yoga and climbing all go into the pot to keep me fit and then if I need to up the anti for a specific event I will just focus more on that sport. I do try and climb once and week and do yoga once a week as a general rule though as it gives me an opportunity to stretch and focus on strength rather than pure cardio.
I have never used the gym for 'specific' sessions and generally focus more on being fit than being race-perfect.
Hope that helps!?
In reply to The New NickB:
I once ran against Joyce Smith, in the first London marathon, she won the ladies race and I finished well behind her in 1,347 place in my first marathon. I think Joyce was a vet already by then, she was a middle age hero of mine
> You might enjoy the marathon talk podcasts Al, lots of interviews great marathon runners of the past, Bill Adcocks and Joyce Smith have been on recently and I know Ron Hill and many others have been on in the past. One thing they all had in common it seems was that they had absolutely no useful advice to give to modern runners.
I once ran against Joyce Smith, in the first London marathon, she won the ladies race and I finished well behind her in 1,347 place in my first marathon. I think Joyce was a vet already by then, she was a middle age hero of mine
In reply to The New NickB:
Yoga. Flexibility, strength and balance. Just the things endurance athletes are normally bad at. A good Yoga class can be a really tough strength workout (I say can be, as they are many types of Yoga and it all depends on the instructor you end up with).
Yoga. Flexibility, strength and balance. Just the things endurance athletes are normally bad at. A good Yoga class can be a really tough strength workout (I say can be, as they are many types of Yoga and it all depends on the instructor you end up with).
In reply to The New NickB: What does your current training week look like?
I'll have a consult of Daniels Running Formula; I know he recommends some supporting stuff during base training, but can't recall at the moment.
I do a lot of low intensity cycling in addition to running, but struggle to find time for much else.
I'll have a consult of Daniels Running Formula; I know he recommends some supporting stuff during base training, but can't recall at the moment.
I do a lot of low intensity cycling in addition to running, but struggle to find time for much else.
In reply to The New NickB: without wanting to be utterly dull about it have you got the running training bit down pat. What with having a job and some training I don't recall a lot of spare time/energy for lots of other stuff. Look to the basics first, tho' that's not very fashionable
Ron Hills book is just unsprakable, tedious bollocks, and makes it so obvious why underperformed on so many occasions.
Ron Hills book is just unsprakable, tedious bollocks, and makes it so obvious why underperformed on so many occasions.
In reply to Liam M:
My standard week at the moment looks something like this:
M - 10 miles steady
T - 6 - 8 miles including speed work (track efforts, fartlek, hill reps, 4 x 1m etc)
W - 8 -12 miles fairly fast / or now as the nights get lighter 5k race with long warm up / down
T - 5 - 7 miles recovery run
F - Rest
S - 10 - 14 miles steady
S - 4 - 5 miles easy run
Will quite often do a few hours on the bike on a Sunday. Things do change, but that is generally about it. I will be racing more soon, which will change things a bit at the weekend. Been struggling with injury for the last few months, which has limited mileage and particularly intensity.
By the way Liam, I don't know if you saw in the National XC results, I finished one place ahead of you. It was my first race back after a few months of interrupted training so I struggled, but it was a great course.
My standard week at the moment looks something like this:
M - 10 miles steady
T - 6 - 8 miles including speed work (track efforts, fartlek, hill reps, 4 x 1m etc)
W - 8 -12 miles fairly fast / or now as the nights get lighter 5k race with long warm up / down
T - 5 - 7 miles recovery run
F - Rest
S - 10 - 14 miles steady
S - 4 - 5 miles easy run
Will quite often do a few hours on the bike on a Sunday. Things do change, but that is generally about it. I will be racing more soon, which will change things a bit at the weekend. Been struggling with injury for the last few months, which has limited mileage and particularly intensity.
By the way Liam, I don't know if you saw in the National XC results, I finished one place ahead of you. It was my first race back after a few months of interrupted training so I struggled, but it was a great course.
In reply to The New NickB: ok, to be harsh you do all your hard running in one two days and bumble round the rest of the week. Do tues or weds, and build a sessions into Saturday mornings
Are you in a club? No sunday run, or do you other stuff sundays?
Are you in a club? No sunday run, or do you other stuff sundays?
In reply to The New NickB: I had a look at Daniels' and it just suggested the light circuit training you refer to in the op, so nothing exciting.
Though your plan makes me wonder about if you're getting full recovery; it may depend upon interpretations of training intensity, but Monday to Wednesday looks quite tough, without much easier time to recover and get the benefits of the harder training. Depending upon your willingness to analyse your training, I wonder if it may be worth looking at ideas such as 'training stress score' to help more easily spot the patterns in your training intensity?
I did spot you finished ahead of me in the national xc. I'd spotted the vest, without realising it was you and used it as a target to try and slowly drag back toward! I was in a similar position of only just getting back into racing. It was possibly too soon as I was still recovering from a cycling accident earlier in the year, but I'd promised the club I'd be there late last year. In the end I enjoyed it and surprised myself - it was rather different to the frozen mud fest in Sunderland the year before.
Though your plan makes me wonder about if you're getting full recovery; it may depend upon interpretations of training intensity, but Monday to Wednesday looks quite tough, without much easier time to recover and get the benefits of the harder training. Depending upon your willingness to analyse your training, I wonder if it may be worth looking at ideas such as 'training stress score' to help more easily spot the patterns in your training intensity?
I did spot you finished ahead of me in the national xc. I'd spotted the vest, without realising it was you and used it as a target to try and slowly drag back toward! I was in a similar position of only just getting back into racing. It was possibly too soon as I was still recovering from a cycling accident earlier in the year, but I'd promised the club I'd be there late last year. In the end I enjoyed it and surprised myself - it was rather different to the frozen mud fest in Sunderland the year before.
In reply to The New NickB:
The biggest benefit to my overall fitness and running ability has been doing British Military Fitness twice a week and eating healthily. The BMF is all about overall conditioning as each class is different. I recently started doing Pilates once a week and it is amazing how inflexible and wonky I am. Hopefully the Pilates will increase my flexibility and make me less prone to injury.
The biggest benefit to my overall fitness and running ability has been doing British Military Fitness twice a week and eating healthily. The BMF is all about overall conditioning as each class is different. I recently started doing Pilates once a week and it is amazing how inflexible and wonky I am. Hopefully the Pilates will increase my flexibility and make me less prone to injury.
In reply to flying el burro:
I see BMF at the "local" park, but wonder at £26-£45/month for one session a week what extra they really offer over the (free) parkrun
> The biggest benefit to my overall fitness and running ability has been doing British Military Fitness
I see BMF at the "local" park, but wonder at £26-£45/month for one session a week what extra they really offer over the (free) parkrun
In reply to The New NickB:
yeah I'd just do some stretch, balance, roller work.
But running wise I'd make at least one run ~2hours, runnable miles, so not 2 hours of fell running (walking), so at least runnable trails..
I'd separate your efforts by a day if possible.
Also whats 'steady' and whats 'fairly fast', in terms of your marathon pace?
I'd be tempted to throw in tempo or MP efforts, 3-5 miles, with 1-2 warm up cool down.
But not sure if thats 'fairly' fast.
Generally I'd dump as much other stuff as possible..
But if anything I'd add 30-40 mile road rides.
yeah I'd just do some stretch, balance, roller work.
But running wise I'd make at least one run ~2hours, runnable miles, so not 2 hours of fell running (walking), so at least runnable trails..
I'd separate your efforts by a day if possible.
Also whats 'steady' and whats 'fairly fast', in terms of your marathon pace?
I'd be tempted to throw in tempo or MP efforts, 3-5 miles, with 1-2 warm up cool down.
But not sure if thats 'fairly' fast.
Generally I'd dump as much other stuff as possible..
But if anything I'd add 30-40 mile road rides.
In reply to flying el burro:
Theres not much evidence that the two are so closely linked.. studies show either way. The main thing is muscle inbalances/weak areas and alignment issues.
> Hopefully the Pilates will increase my flexibility and make me less prone to injury.
Theres not much evidence that the two are so closely linked.. studies show either way. The main thing is muscle inbalances/weak areas and alignment issues.
In reply to The New NickB:
I don't think you've actually said what you're training for, distance wise. Marathons, Halfs, 10ks, 5ks, etc ?
I'm guessing not mara or halfs given that your longest run is 14 miles. Even for 10k a long run a week is good, up to 16 or 17 ( similar to Iain's 2 hour suggestion ). and agree with others that would be better to split up the hard days with recovery days.
I don't think you've actually said what you're training for, distance wise. Marathons, Halfs, 10ks, 5ks, etc ?
I'm guessing not mara or halfs given that your longest run is 14 miles. Even for 10k a long run a week is good, up to 16 or 17 ( similar to Iain's 2 hour suggestion ). and agree with others that would be better to split up the hard days with recovery days.
In reply to Jim Hamilton:
BMF is very different to PR. There are a lot more than one weekly session - I pass one local group most days. It's also a much broader range of activities, more of a circuit training session in the open air.
BMF doesn't interest me, but I don't think it's anything like an analogue of Parkrun, and isn't really a fair comparison to try and make.
> I see BMF at the "local" park, but wonder at £26-£45/month for one session a week what extra they really offer over the (free) parkrun
BMF is very different to PR. There are a lot more than one weekly session - I pass one local group most days. It's also a much broader range of activities, more of a circuit training session in the open air.
BMF doesn't interest me, but I don't think it's anything like an analogue of Parkrun, and isn't really a fair comparison to try and make.
In reply to steelbru:
It is ticking over training, rather than for a specific distance. I am just back from injury so not focusing too much on one event. I was marathon training until I got injured.
It is ticking over training, rather than for a specific distance. I am just back from injury so not focusing too much on one event. I was marathon training until I got injured.
In reply to IainRUK:
Steady is 60 seconds below marathon pace for 10 miles, fairly fast would be inside 30 seconds on marathon pace.
Steady is 60 seconds below marathon pace for 10 miles, fairly fast would be inside 30 seconds on marathon pace.
In reply to The New NickB: a cynic would say that is a surefire way to make your marathon pace 30, 40 seks slower.
Pick a race distance. Whats wrong with 5k. A good 5k is essential for a good 10, and a good 10 for a good half
Pick a race distance. Whats wrong with 5k. A good 5k is essential for a good 10, and a good 10 for a good half
In reply to wbo:
The cynic would be making a very dubious statement.
> a cynic would say that is a surefire way to make your marathon pace 30, 40 seks slower.
The cynic would be making a very dubious statement.
In reply to The New NickB:
I'd be tempted to drop some speed on some and up your fast..
Relaxed steady for me is 7:30, 7:15-7;40 sort of zone is comfortable.
I mix my pace quite a lot though but one of the guys I pass my plans over is very much a lydiard follower.. and actually is very much against ANY pace work during the aerobic base building phase. But I enjoy them and enjoy the variability in my sessions so try to add two a week.
But he reckons now I should now do 12 weeks of just relaxed easy running of 100-120 miles a week..
But I think that sort of constant relaxed stead y pace only works off highish mileage.
I'm now at 100-105 and am feeling sorer so will see, but I don't work so for now I can just run and couch it..
I'd be tempted to drop some speed on some and up your fast..
Relaxed steady for me is 7:30, 7:15-7;40 sort of zone is comfortable.
I mix my pace quite a lot though but one of the guys I pass my plans over is very much a lydiard follower.. and actually is very much against ANY pace work during the aerobic base building phase. But I enjoy them and enjoy the variability in my sessions so try to add two a week.
But he reckons now I should now do 12 weeks of just relaxed easy running of 100-120 miles a week..
But I think that sort of constant relaxed stead y pace only works off highish mileage.
I'm now at 100-105 and am feeling sorer so will see, but I don't work so for now I can just run and couch it..
In reply to IainRUK: I'm not even sure huge mileage is critical for easy base work to succeed. Following a short forced lay off (heads are no substitute for brakes on a bike) my original training plans for the year were put back.
So I just very steadily built up the volume, and a couple of xc races aside I've done pretty much nothing faster than 8.30/mile pace for the last 10 weeks. My volume topped out at about 45miles per week.
Last weekend as a benchmarking exercise before reintroducing some speed work I did a Parkrun, without any real pace pressure. I managed an average pace of under 6.20/mile.
This was a handful of seconds above my pb, which was achieved following a lot of speed work and hurt a lot more on the day. It was also almost immediately back to the sort of level that for years I'd struggled to get anywhere near, despite equivalent volume and reasonable amounts of pace work.
I know other friends with similar tales. I do think for anyone who has plateaud a block of just very easy work as a lot of the classic coaching strategies suggest can be very useful.
So I just very steadily built up the volume, and a couple of xc races aside I've done pretty much nothing faster than 8.30/mile pace for the last 10 weeks. My volume topped out at about 45miles per week.
Last weekend as a benchmarking exercise before reintroducing some speed work I did a Parkrun, without any real pace pressure. I managed an average pace of under 6.20/mile.
This was a handful of seconds above my pb, which was achieved following a lot of speed work and hurt a lot more on the day. It was also almost immediately back to the sort of level that for years I'd struggled to get anywhere near, despite equivalent volume and reasonable amounts of pace work.
I know other friends with similar tales. I do think for anyone who has plateaud a block of just very easy work as a lot of the classic coaching strategies suggest can be very useful.
In reply to IainRUK:
I didn't necessarily mean to suggest a link but rather the Pilates will straighten/even my misalignments out and should then help to prevent injury.
I didn't necessarily mean to suggest a link but rather the Pilates will straighten/even my misalignments out and should then help to prevent injury.
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