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Speaking to some foreign climbers on holiday and they said they would love to visit the uk for some climbing. They have heard so much about "the gritstone"
But in all reality, if you were planning a European climbing trip, I just don't think gritstone is a worthy destination. It's good, even great for uk climbers. But with a combination of crappy weather and short routes, bit of a mediocre holiday destination.
So I was thinking, which Uk destination merits a European trip. I thought perhaps Pembroke? It's quite a unique place, huge variety of climbs and not too many areas have trad sea cliff routes? Or perhaps some where in north wales like llanberis (but I've never been myself) perhaps the slate quarries? I seem to be fixating on Wales?
Which is the best uk destination for trad climbers?
But in all reality, if you were planning a European climbing trip, I just don't think gritstone is a worthy destination. It's good, even great for uk climbers. But with a combination of crappy weather and short routes, bit of a mediocre holiday destination.
So I was thinking, which Uk destination merits a European trip. I thought perhaps Pembroke? It's quite a unique place, huge variety of climbs and not too many areas have trad sea cliff routes? Or perhaps some where in north wales like llanberis (but I've never been myself) perhaps the slate quarries? I seem to be fixating on Wales?
Which is the best uk destination for trad climbers?
In reply to Kemics:
I think Pembroke's a good call. A foreign climber of my acquaintance was most impressed with Pembroke over extensive experience of the Peak and the usual UK mountain destinations.
I think Pembroke's a good call. A foreign climber of my acquaintance was most impressed with Pembroke over extensive experience of the Peak and the usual UK mountain destinations.
In reply to Kemics:
Never been, but from what I've read Pabbay may be in with a shout.
Snowdonia definitely another contender
Never been, but from what I've read Pabbay may be in with a shout.
Snowdonia definitely another contender
Post edited at 21:41
thought i think gogarth or Pabbay & Mingulay are far more impressive trad sea cliff destinations than Pembroke.
i agree that grit stone is talked up too much.
i agree that grit stone is talked up too much.
In reply to Kemics:
I was thinking about this just the other day (and nearly started a thread!.) Given that it is a different question from "where in the UK has the best climbing" (to which the answer is clearly always going to be somewhere in Scotland), I agree that Pembroke is the obvious answer; it epitomises a quintessential British type of climbing (trad sea cliffs), there's loads of it, the quality is outstanding and the weather is relatively reliable. I can't imagine anyone not being impressed with Pembroke, whereas I can ceratainly imagine a foreigner being a little underwhelmed by our mountain crags and simply laughing at grit or UK sport.
> So I was thinking, which Uk destination merits a European trip. I thought perhaps Pembroke?
I was thinking about this just the other day (and nearly started a thread!.) Given that it is a different question from "where in the UK has the best climbing" (to which the answer is clearly always going to be somewhere in Scotland), I agree that Pembroke is the obvious answer; it epitomises a quintessential British type of climbing (trad sea cliffs), there's loads of it, the quality is outstanding and the weather is relatively reliable. I can't imagine anyone not being impressed with Pembroke, whereas I can ceratainly imagine a foreigner being a little underwhelmed by our mountain crags and simply laughing at grit or UK sport.
In reply to Kemics:
Has to be North Wales, mostly because it has a bit of everything at every grade! Want classic mountain trad? Loads. Hard/funky sport? The Orme or Slate. Terrifying sea cliffs? Gogarth. Least onsightable route for the hard nuts? Pop down to Tremadog.
Plus, the routes are over 10m, which is more than an added bonus. Oh, and the Welsh.
Has to be North Wales, mostly because it has a bit of everything at every grade! Want classic mountain trad? Loads. Hard/funky sport? The Orme or Slate. Terrifying sea cliffs? Gogarth. Least onsightable route for the hard nuts? Pop down to Tremadog.
Plus, the routes are over 10m, which is more than an added bonus. Oh, and the Welsh.
In reply to adamki:
Gogarth is chossy crap compared with Pembroke. Why inflict curiously British esoterica on a foreigner and hope they quickly acquire a taste for it as their only sample of UK climbing? You could certainly make a case for Mingulay/Pabbay but I'd still go for Pembroke.
> Though I think Gogarth or Pabbay & Mingulay are far more impressive trad sea cliff destinations than Pembroke.
Gogarth is chossy crap compared with Pembroke. Why inflict curiously British esoterica on a foreigner and hope they quickly acquire a taste for it as their only sample of UK climbing? You could certainly make a case for Mingulay/Pabbay but I'd still go for Pembroke.
In reply to Kemics:
You should probably watch out for lighting strikes, God will not be happy about you insulting his rock. Seriously though, it's obvious why grit is renowned abroad. It offers a bold, technical and very pure style of trad climbing on a rock type that is different to anything else you'll find. And as for the 'short routes' well, didn't you ever hear how it's quality, not quantity?
You should probably watch out for lighting strikes, God will not be happy about you insulting his rock. Seriously though, it's obvious why grit is renowned abroad. It offers a bold, technical and very pure style of trad climbing on a rock type that is different to anything else you'll find. And as for the 'short routes' well, didn't you ever hear how it's quality, not quantity?
In reply to ianstevens:
Agree - the best area for a bit of everything.
The grit is fairly unique though so I can imagine that a lot of overseas climbers would want to spend a few days exploring it.
The other great sea cliff area is the South West of course. Pretty much all the guests at last year's BMC international meet really enjoyed it. As has been said above, very few overseas areas have trad sea cliffs. I think if there is one thing that really distinguishes British climbing, it is our sea cliffs (depending on where the visitors are from, the trad ethic in general might be a bit of a revelation but of course trad is not exclusive to the UK).
Agree - the best area for a bit of everything.
The grit is fairly unique though so I can imagine that a lot of overseas climbers would want to spend a few days exploring it.
The other great sea cliff area is the South West of course. Pretty much all the guests at last year's BMC international meet really enjoyed it. As has been said above, very few overseas areas have trad sea cliffs. I think if there is one thing that really distinguishes British climbing, it is our sea cliffs (depending on where the visitors are from, the trad ethic in general might be a bit of a revelation but of course trad is not exclusive to the UK).
In reply to Misha:
Yeah that was my other consideration would be Cornish/Devon sea cliffs, I went with Pembroke just because it's a little more accessible? But despite growing up in Devon I've not climbed in Cornwall...simply because there's too much climbing you have to pass on the way (and the bastard pasty plagiarising Cornish of course too). The grit is worth a look but especially as the guys I'm thinking about are Germans from the Czech border, they have plenty of sandstone and having looked at their pictures, I realised how underwhelming ours is
Yeah that was my other consideration would be Cornish/Devon sea cliffs, I went with Pembroke just because it's a little more accessible? But despite growing up in Devon I've not climbed in Cornwall...simply because there's too much climbing you have to pass on the way (and the bastard pasty plagiarising Cornish of course too). The grit is worth a look but especially as the guys I'm thinking about are Germans from the Czech border, they have plenty of sandstone and having looked at their pictures, I realised how underwhelming ours is
In reply to Kemics:
If a foreign climber wanted to take a holiday in the UK, and the weather was reasonable, surely a little time in several places would be warranted? Grit (for sure), Cloggy, Pembroke, Dinas Cromlech, Gogarth, Ben Nevis and Skye or Torridon, perhaps?
If a foreign climber wanted to take a holiday in the UK, and the weather was reasonable, surely a little time in several places would be warranted? Grit (for sure), Cloggy, Pembroke, Dinas Cromlech, Gogarth, Ben Nevis and Skye or Torridon, perhaps?
In reply to Kemics:
Unquestionably in winter Scotland: it already has an international reputation. After that it is so weather dependent. One can only offer a circuit ( as is often the case elsewhere): suggest certain cliffs and also the general feel of the area concerned. Foreigners are not immune to the beauty of the setting. Cloggy undoubtedly if everything was brilliant. Pembroke undoubtedly for a reasonably safe bet. A look in at the grit to try and understand the British climbing mentality, but if you wanted one single climb worth coming over for what would it be?
Unquestionably in winter Scotland: it already has an international reputation. After that it is so weather dependent. One can only offer a circuit ( as is often the case elsewhere): suggest certain cliffs and also the general feel of the area concerned. Foreigners are not immune to the beauty of the setting. Cloggy undoubtedly if everything was brilliant. Pembroke undoubtedly for a reasonably safe bet. A look in at the grit to try and understand the British climbing mentality, but if you wanted one single climb worth coming over for what would it be?
In reply to jcw:
Well that would surely depend what grade you climb, but... Low E grades, has to be Cenotaph Corner, Mid E's probably the Axe, and if your a top-end climber, you'd probably chose something like Gaia/Parthian Shot/Equilibrium et al. and dangle off for weeks. However, if you can climb that well you should be aspiring to do Indian Face or Strawberries!
> if you wanted one single climb worth coming over for what would it be?
Well that would surely depend what grade you climb, but... Low E grades, has to be Cenotaph Corner, Mid E's probably the Axe, and if your a top-end climber, you'd probably chose something like Gaia/Parthian Shot/Equilibrium et al. and dangle off for weeks. However, if you can climb that well you should be aspiring to do Indian Face or Strawberries!
In reply to ianstevens:
Yes, but would that appeal to a foreigner? Nowt wrong with our dear old Cenotaph Corner etc and I certainly couldn't judge your other suggestions, but there are a lot better climbs than these outside the UK surely. It is not the fact that these are British aspirations but what would bring foreigners to our shores to make a worthwhile trip or at a different level an internationally recognized tick to make the visit worthwhile to other than Brits?
Yes, but would that appeal to a foreigner? Nowt wrong with our dear old Cenotaph Corner etc and I certainly couldn't judge your other suggestions, but there are a lot better climbs than these outside the UK surely. It is not the fact that these are British aspirations but what would bring foreigners to our shores to make a worthwhile trip or at a different level an internationally recognized tick to make the visit worthwhile to other than Brits?
In reply to The Pylon King:
Will you ever stop posting that photo? Good god...
I know you're just joking on, but still, I've seen it in at least 3 topics recently... I know you're proud of the route and all...
Will you ever stop posting that photo? Good god...
I know you're just joking on, but still, I've seen it in at least 3 topics recently... I know you're proud of the route and all...
Post edited at 22:35
In reply to Madden:
I haven't even started.
> Will you ever stop posting that photo? Good god...
> I know you're just joking on, but still, I've seen it in at least 3 topics recently... I know you're proud of the route and all...
I haven't even started.
In reply to jcw:
Well I can't judge them either - probably a slight hint of my own aspirations coming through. I think (apart from sea-cliffs) one of the things British climbing really has to offer is tradition and history, which is somewhat reflected in my selections. However, I do see your point - I wouldn't (and couldn't) say any of them are internationally recognised.
Having said all of that, it does seem common for non-brit nutjobs (aka, actual good climbers) to come and have a go at Strawberries when they come for a visit (think Glowcasz (sp.?), Faveresse and the guys in Odyssey).
To turn it around a little, I know there's top notch climbing in Spain, Germany, France, the USA and so on, and I'd like to visit them all - but The Nose or Astroman are probably the only routes I could name that I'd specifically like to do outside of those in the Alps. To further compound things, aside from the USA/Spain, I doubt I could even pick an area off the top of my head without a bit of further digging. And now to bring it back to my point, if I asked, lets say, a Spanish climber what routes (s)he thinks I should go and do, they'd probably differ from things I picked out in the guide.
Now to answer the OPs question, which I have declined to do so far. Of course the UK has top climbing areas worthy of a European trip - as to where to go? Depends what you want really. But for the true British experience, you want a lot of variety in a small space, some proper sea-cliffs, and a good splash of routes with history. Hence, north Wales.
Edited as I can't spell
Well I can't judge them either - probably a slight hint of my own aspirations coming through. I think (apart from sea-cliffs) one of the things British climbing really has to offer is tradition and history, which is somewhat reflected in my selections. However, I do see your point - I wouldn't (and couldn't) say any of them are internationally recognised.
Having said all of that, it does seem common for non-brit nutjobs (aka, actual good climbers) to come and have a go at Strawberries when they come for a visit (think Glowcasz (sp.?), Faveresse and the guys in Odyssey).
To turn it around a little, I know there's top notch climbing in Spain, Germany, France, the USA and so on, and I'd like to visit them all - but The Nose or Astroman are probably the only routes I could name that I'd specifically like to do outside of those in the Alps. To further compound things, aside from the USA/Spain, I doubt I could even pick an area off the top of my head without a bit of further digging. And now to bring it back to my point, if I asked, lets say, a Spanish climber what routes (s)he thinks I should go and do, they'd probably differ from things I picked out in the guide.
Now to answer the OPs question, which I have declined to do so far. Of course the UK has top climbing areas worthy of a European trip - as to where to go? Depends what you want really. But for the true British experience, you want a lot of variety in a small space, some proper sea-cliffs, and a good splash of routes with history. Hence, north Wales.
Edited as I can't spell
Post edited at 22:44
When I talk to French climbers, either friends or those met in huts or at a crag, its Scottish winter climbing that gets mentioned most. This might reflect the coverage it gets in French magazines where UK summer rock is rarely featured.
In reply to Kemics:
Gritstone: part of the interest for a foriegner coming to the UK would be *because* its so short
Gritstone: part of the interest for a foriegner coming to the UK would be *because* its so short
In reply to Kemics:
I actually have experience in this area, having organised a a trip to North Wales last year with a group from the Munich DAV.
My reasons for choosing North Wales were
(a) selfishness - I love the area, and have lots of unsettled scores there from my pre-expat days
(b) variety - sea cliffs, mountains, (sport climbing if the whole trad thing didn't work out for some of the team)
(c) good availability of options for poor weather
They loved it. Unfortunately the weather was too cold for mountain crags - we froze ourselves for a day on the Cromlech, but then spen the rest of the time on slate and at Gogarth. They loved both, to my joy and a little to my surprise because they are a little esoteric.
Two out of six of the participants said they'd definitely go back - not bad for what is for them a remote and obscure area that is difficult and expensive to get to compared to, say, driving the one hour to the Kaisergebirge or three hours to the Dolomites.
North West Scotland is stunningly beautiful and has great climbing, I agree, but would have been a bit of gamble for a trip like this because of weather/midges. I'd consider South West England if I were doing another such trip.
I actually have experience in this area, having organised a a trip to North Wales last year with a group from the Munich DAV.
My reasons for choosing North Wales were
(a) selfishness - I love the area, and have lots of unsettled scores there from my pre-expat days
(b) variety - sea cliffs, mountains, (sport climbing if the whole trad thing didn't work out for some of the team)
(c) good availability of options for poor weather
They loved it. Unfortunately the weather was too cold for mountain crags - we froze ourselves for a day on the Cromlech, but then spen the rest of the time on slate and at Gogarth. They loved both, to my joy and a little to my surprise because they are a little esoteric.
Two out of six of the participants said they'd definitely go back - not bad for what is for them a remote and obscure area that is difficult and expensive to get to compared to, say, driving the one hour to the Kaisergebirge or three hours to the Dolomites.
North West Scotland is stunningly beautiful and has great climbing, I agree, but would have been a bit of gamble for a trip like this because of weather/midges. I'd consider South West England if I were doing another such trip.
In reply to Kemics:
Much as it is a slight annoyance as it seems to me there are far better places than the Peak to go for a climbing trip, gritstone is fairly unique which has to be where a lot of the appeal for foreigners comes from.
With Pembroke you're just subjecting them to more limestone which surely they'll have had enough of already? It's not really that good as rock types go.
A trip up to the NW gneiss / Torridonian sandstone would be a good alternative?
Much as it is a slight annoyance as it seems to me there are far better places than the Peak to go for a climbing trip, gritstone is fairly unique which has to be where a lot of the appeal for foreigners comes from.
With Pembroke you're just subjecting them to more limestone which surely they'll have had enough of already? It's not really that good as rock types go.
A trip up to the NW gneiss / Torridonian sandstone would be a good alternative?
In reply to Kemics:
Compared to most UK destinations, Peak weather is pretty decent actually.
I have had the privilege to introduce quite a few foreigners to UK trad leading, they generally loved the grit, many came back independently on follow up trips.
If I had to pick one area though, Pembroke would be it.
> But with a combination of crappy weather and short routes, bit of a mediocre holiday destination.
Compared to most UK destinations, Peak weather is pretty decent actually.
I have had the privilege to introduce quite a few foreigners to UK trad leading, they generally loved the grit, many came back independently on follow up trips.
If I had to pick one area though, Pembroke would be it.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
There is a big difference between Pembroke limestone and the average European limestone crag... for number one, the sea keeps anything in reach nice and spikey...
> With Pembroke you're just subjecting them to more limestone which surely they'll have had enough of already? It's not really that good as rock types go.
There is a big difference between Pembroke limestone and the average European limestone crag... for number one, the sea keeps anything in reach nice and spikey...
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Inclined to agree. Diabaig is pretty much the perfect seaside climbing spot and less than ten miles from the triple Buttress of Bheinn Eighe. Factor in the Cuillin only 90 minutes away and you have something very special indeed. North Wales is more more accessible, typically British and has more history but it ain't the great NW.
Weather west of Torridon village is also much better than many imagine!!
> Much as it is a slight annoyance as it seems to me there are far better places than the Peak to go for a climbing trip, gritstone is fairly unique which has to be where a lot of the appeal for foreigners comes from.
> With Pembroke you're just subjecting them to more limestone which surely they'll have had enough of already? It's not really that good as rock types go.
> A trip up to the NW gneiss / Torridonian sandstone would be a good alternative?
Inclined to agree. Diabaig is pretty much the perfect seaside climbing spot and less than ten miles from the triple Buttress of Bheinn Eighe. Factor in the Cuillin only 90 minutes away and you have something very special indeed. North Wales is more more accessible, typically British and has more history but it ain't the great NW.
Weather west of Torridon village is also much better than many imagine!!
In reply to Kemics:
I also wonder - lots of us are more than satisfied to visit font, which is even shorter! If you are expecting short routes, then you might be quite happy with the shortness of grit.
The poor old lakes haven't had a whisper of a mention!
How about Cornwall? That would be a great climbing holiday - great, unique rock, cream teas, sea, sun....
I also wonder - lots of us are more than satisfied to visit font, which is even shorter! If you are expecting short routes, then you might be quite happy with the shortness of grit.
The poor old lakes haven't had a whisper of a mention!
How about Cornwall? That would be a great climbing holiday - great, unique rock, cream teas, sea, sun....
In reply to Kemics:
From a non uk perspective grit has fantastic rock and moves, a strong ethic and a lot of history. That, and Scottish winter are the real standouts.
A lot of the welsh mountain crags are good, but hardly unique. I'll drive by a bunch of undeveloped cliffs today that could be any major cliff in Wales or the lakes. Pembroke is top quality tho' and so is gogarth
From a non uk perspective grit has fantastic rock and moves, a strong ethic and a lot of history. That, and Scottish winter are the real standouts.
A lot of the welsh mountain crags are good, but hardly unique. I'll drive by a bunch of undeveloped cliffs today that could be any major cliff in Wales or the lakes. Pembroke is top quality tho' and so is gogarth
In reply to Kemics:
"International significance" and "worth a trip for a holiday" are different. The Grit is worth a visit as it is so accessible, and there is so much to go at. Pembroke is great because of the seaside setting, the quality of the rock, the great weather and the thousands of routes on offer. North Wales has huge variety, the South West is lovely as is the Lake District, always accepting the crowds.
The problem with Scotland is the weather and of course the midgies, both soul destroying in their own way!
Chris
"International significance" and "worth a trip for a holiday" are different. The Grit is worth a visit as it is so accessible, and there is so much to go at. Pembroke is great because of the seaside setting, the quality of the rock, the great weather and the thousands of routes on offer. North Wales has huge variety, the South West is lovely as is the Lake District, always accepting the crowds.
The problem with Scotland is the weather and of course the midgies, both soul destroying in their own way!
Chris
In reply to Kemics:
"Suddenly it dawned on me that these boulders were the fabled gritstone. Dear Lord, I thought, the poor island and its inhabitants".
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP08/editors-note-monsters
"Suddenly it dawned on me that these boulders were the fabled gritstone. Dear Lord, I thought, the poor island and its inhabitants".
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/ALP08/editors-note-monsters
In reply to wbo:
To be fair, so do many other areas of the UK.
> From a non uk perspective grit has fantastic rock and moves, a strong ethic and a lot of history.
To be fair, so do many other areas of the UK.
In reply to Kemics:
Hi climbers!I'm new in Birmigham! This is cati, from Barcelona and I'm looking for people for rock climbing. Also, I would like to know places for practise rock climbing and a climbing wall to train during the week near the mailbox in Birmingham. can somebody help me? thank you very muchhh! I hope climbing with some of you,!
Hi climbers!I'm new in Birmigham! This is cati, from Barcelona and I'm looking for people for rock climbing. Also, I would like to know places for practise rock climbing and a climbing wall to train during the week near the mailbox in Birmingham. can somebody help me? thank you very muchhh! I hope climbing with some of you,!
In reply to Pagan:
Substitute granite for grotstone and I had much the same thought when I first went to Joshua Tree!
> "Suddenly it dawned on me that these boulders were the fabled gritstone.
Substitute granite for grotstone and I had much the same thought when I first went to Joshua Tree!
In reply to jcw:
Id have to disagree, id say the sweep of rock on Dinas Cromlech has to be one of the best expanses of climbable rock in the world. I cant think of anywhere else with such a high concentration of classic and outstanding climbs across a spectrum of grades (Vs-E6, though there is also a good hS), all so close together and yet totally independent lines. and the fact that anywhere else in the world half of the routes would be bolted is a credit to British climbing.
As for the original post. Grit is truly world class and climbers form all over the world go there for a reason. again anywhere else in the world and it would all be bolted. It may not be in the beautiful and remote setting of many other world famous climbing destinations, but the quaint British countryside has an appeal in its own right.
Iv only climbed in pembrokshire once and was rather underwhelmed by it. Its not unique (same as the Gower for starters) the rock isn't always great, and its limestone which everywhere else in the world is the trade rock type...
Id have to disagree, id say the sweep of rock on Dinas Cromlech has to be one of the best expanses of climbable rock in the world. I cant think of anywhere else with such a high concentration of classic and outstanding climbs across a spectrum of grades (Vs-E6, though there is also a good hS), all so close together and yet totally independent lines. and the fact that anywhere else in the world half of the routes would be bolted is a credit to British climbing.
As for the original post. Grit is truly world class and climbers form all over the world go there for a reason. again anywhere else in the world and it would all be bolted. It may not be in the beautiful and remote setting of many other world famous climbing destinations, but the quaint British countryside has an appeal in its own right.
Iv only climbed in pembrokshire once and was rather underwhelmed by it. Its not unique (same as the Gower for starters) the rock isn't always great, and its limestone which everywhere else in the world is the trade rock type...
In reply to Kemics:
I reckon for a hard core trad on-sighter/headpointer, then grit is internationally significant. Drastically less so in the lower grades.
For the lower grade on-sighter, Pembroke is pretty much up there and that would be the place I'd recommend.
Unless of course you can organise a trip to Lundy...
I reckon for a hard core trad on-sighter/headpointer, then grit is internationally significant. Drastically less so in the lower grades.
For the lower grade on-sighter, Pembroke is pretty much up there and that would be the place I'd recommend.
Unless of course you can organise a trip to Lundy...
In reply to Webster:
cloggy for a start... for example the corner is bigger and better than cenotaph corner. All routes i have done there are amazing. like Scottish crags it is limited by the weather though.
> Id have to disagree, id say the sweep of rock on Dinas Cromlech has to be one of the best expanses of climbable rock in the world.
cloggy for a start... for example the corner is bigger and better than cenotaph corner. All routes i have done there are amazing. like Scottish crags it is limited by the weather though.
In reply to Kemics:
If they climb on the Czech sandstone towers, they will be well suited to the grit but as you say might not be too impressed. Ask them if they fancy something similar but much, much smaller... Whereas sea cliffs really will be different for them. North Wales is a good bet for variety as others have said, Pembroke or the South West a better bet for the weather.
If they climb on the Czech sandstone towers, they will be well suited to the grit but as you say might not be too impressed. Ask them if they fancy something similar but much, much smaller... Whereas sea cliffs really will be different for them. North Wales is a good bet for variety as others have said, Pembroke or the South West a better bet for the weather.
Post edited at 18:49
In reply to Webster:
I think you have a rather limited knowledge of other places and assume that the UK is the only place that abhors bolting. The essential is that there is great climbing in UK and what one needs is to show foreigners where to go and enjoy the experience in the context of the environment, in all senses of the word whatever their standard and not undermine our pride with jingoistic claims.
I think you have a rather limited knowledge of other places and assume that the UK is the only place that abhors bolting. The essential is that there is great climbing in UK and what one needs is to show foreigners where to go and enjoy the experience in the context of the environment, in all senses of the word whatever their standard and not undermine our pride with jingoistic claims.
In reply to FactorXXX:
I'd definitely vote for Lundy. Although clearly you're stuffed if the weather is crap, but if not, it's got a decent range of grades and a pretty good variety of styles in a fairly unique, but British setting.
I'd definitely vote for Lundy. Although clearly you're stuffed if the weather is crap, but if not, it's got a decent range of grades and a pretty good variety of styles in a fairly unique, but British setting.
In reply to The Pylon King:
It's the new Cookie Crumbles!
> (In reply to Madden)
>
> I haven't even started.
>
> I haven't even started.
It's the new Cookie Crumbles!
In reply to Robert Durran:
I agree it may not the best choice for an ingenu but; 'esoteric chossy crap' does the cliff a diservice - its good routes tend to be much more memorable than Pembroke
> (In reply to adamki)
>
> [...]
>
> Gogarth is chossy crap compared with Pembroke. Why inflict curiously British esoterica on a foreigner and hope they quickly acquire a taste for it as their only sample of UK climbing? You could certainly make a case for Mingulay/Pabbay but I'd still go for Pembroke.
>
> [...]
>
> Gogarth is chossy crap compared with Pembroke. Why inflict curiously British esoterica on a foreigner and hope they quickly acquire a taste for it as their only sample of UK climbing? You could certainly make a case for Mingulay/Pabbay but I'd still go for Pembroke.
I agree it may not the best choice for an ingenu but; 'esoteric chossy crap' does the cliff a diservice - its good routes tend to be much more memorable than Pembroke
In reply to Robert Durran:
I can't recollect ever having broken a hold on Gogarth - for sure the rock is wierd, but I'm not sure about "chossy crap".
Chris
PS Actually I just remembered snapping the brittle Ryvita holds on Red Wall (just 'testing' them) and fist-jamming up sand-fill cracks on Sind, so maybe you do have a point. The Main Cliff is sold though!
> Gogarth is chossy crap compared with Pembroke. Why inflict curiously British esoterica on a foreigner and hope they quickly acquire a taste for it as their only sample of UK climbing? You could certainly make a case for Mingulay/Pabbay but I'd still go for Pembroke.
I can't recollect ever having broken a hold on Gogarth - for sure the rock is wierd, but I'm not sure about "chossy crap".
Chris
PS Actually I just remembered snapping the brittle Ryvita holds on Red Wall (just 'testing' them) and fist-jamming up sand-fill cracks on Sind, so maybe you do have a point. The Main Cliff is sold though!
Post edited at 14:17
In reply to Chris Craggs:
Apart from the endless, tedious green pube covered choss and mud you have to climb after the pitch and a half of good climbing....
In comparison, the norm in Pembroke is perfect rock from sea to flat grass. No contest.
> PS Actually I just remembered snapping the brittle Ryvita holds on Red Wall (just 'testing' them) and fist-jamming up sand-fill cracks on Sind, so maybe you do have a point. The Main Cliff is sold though!
Apart from the endless, tedious green pube covered choss and mud you have to climb after the pitch and a half of good climbing....
In comparison, the norm in Pembroke is perfect rock from sea to flat grass. No contest.
Post edited at 15:05
In reply to them dissing the grit:
Take anyone on a walk from Stanage End all the way to the cowperstone and then through the Burbage Valley via Higgar tor and if they had even the tiniest climbers bone in their body they would be bouldering, scoping the routes, getting enthused and asking questions about the ethic.
Take anyone on a walk from Stanage End all the way to the cowperstone and then through the Burbage Valley via Higgar tor and if they had even the tiniest climbers bone in their body they would be bouldering, scoping the routes, getting enthused and asking questions about the ethic.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
If you compare East Coast Scotland with East Coast England and West Coast Scotland with West Coast England / Wales (of a similar altitude and coast shape) the rainfall is much of a muchness IMO.
Also many areas suffer from bad midgies not just Scotland.
> The problem with Scotland is the weather and of course the midgies, both soul destroying in their own way!
If you compare East Coast Scotland with East Coast England and West Coast Scotland with West Coast England / Wales (of a similar altitude and coast shape) the rainfall is much of a muchness IMO.
Also many areas suffer from bad midgies not just Scotland.
In reply to Kemics:
West Penwith always seems quite popular with foreign climbers and rightly so IMO.
West Penwith always seems quite popular with foreign climbers and rightly so IMO.
In reply to Chris Craggs:
To me, actually. Did three paper rounds as a nipper, saved the proceeds, invested them wisely and, 50 years later, courtesy of compound interest...
Mick
> The Main Cliff is sold though!
To me, actually. Did three paper rounds as a nipper, saved the proceeds, invested them wisely and, 50 years later, courtesy of compound interest...
Mick
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Not the case for the west coast- see met office chart link...
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/averages/ukmapavge.html
There's bad, then there's sligachan campsite on an overcast still day in August bad...
<shudders>
Cheers
Gregor
> If you compare East Coast Scotland with East Coast England and West Coast Scotland with West Coast England / Wales (of a similar altitude and coast shape) the rainfall is much of a muchness IMO.
Not the case for the west coast- see met office chart link...
http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/averages/ukmapavge.html
> Also many areas suffer from bad midgies not just Scotland
There's bad, then there's sligachan campsite on an overcast still day in August bad...
<shudders>
Cheers
Gregor
In reply to Kemics:
One thing that always surprises me is how many foreign climbers are familiar with films focusing on UK climbers/routes (especially the Hot Aches stuff). This seems to be particularly the case with Hard Grit, which appears to have been incredibly popular here in Sweden and put the Peak quite high up in terms of priorities for trips. I also seem to recall a section in a film that focused on the 'Team America' visit of a few years ago where Honnold, Jorgeson and so on talk about it with a certain reverence.
I suppose a lot of these films also reinforce the image of the strong traditional ethics, which has a certain hardcore mystique for climbers in areas where bolting and other morally decrepit practices are more commonplace.
One thing that always surprises me is how many foreign climbers are familiar with films focusing on UK climbers/routes (especially the Hot Aches stuff). This seems to be particularly the case with Hard Grit, which appears to have been incredibly popular here in Sweden and put the Peak quite high up in terms of priorities for trips. I also seem to recall a section in a film that focused on the 'Team America' visit of a few years ago where Honnold, Jorgeson and so on talk about it with a certain reverence.
I suppose a lot of these films also reinforce the image of the strong traditional ethics, which has a certain hardcore mystique for climbers in areas where bolting and other morally decrepit practices are more commonplace.
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
I disagree if you use the map to compare like with like (ie same altitude and coastal shape) the rainfall amounts are very similar. I compared the annual averages of rainfall from 1981 -> 2010.
For example ben nevis area is pretty similar to snowdonia or the lakes. Or dumfries is very similar to the landmass from dartmoor to redruth and must be a similar height.
"There's bad, then there's sligachan campsite on an overcast still day in August bad..."
Snowdonia and the Lakes ban be pretty awful for midgies too IMO, maybe not as bad as glencoe or sligachan on a bad year though.
> Not the case for the west coast- see met office chart link...
> http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/averages/ukmapavge.html
> http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/climate/uk/averages/ukmapavge.html
I disagree if you use the map to compare like with like (ie same altitude and coastal shape) the rainfall amounts are very similar. I compared the annual averages of rainfall from 1981 -> 2010.
For example ben nevis area is pretty similar to snowdonia or the lakes. Or dumfries is very similar to the landmass from dartmoor to redruth and must be a similar height.
"There's bad, then there's sligachan campsite on an overcast still day in August bad..."
Snowdonia and the Lakes ban be pretty awful for midgies too IMO, maybe not as bad as glencoe or sligachan on a bad year though.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
its an interesting point this, and one that definitive answers seem hard to come by. its true snowdonia and the lakes are in the 'dark blue' parts of the met office rainfall maps showing highest average rainfall and most rainy days; but it doesnt show the peak values in those areas. it would be interesting to see whether another isohyet (i had to look it up...!) at 3000mm, or even 4000mm would still include the lakes/snowdonia, as the peak one is at 2,500mm. from its wiki page, ben nevis summit annual rainfall is 4,081 or 4,350mm; it had a weather observatory to generate that figure. snowdon's wiki page says 5,000mm- but the reference cited is a rather old textbook by the looks of it, and its not clear whether that is based on data from observations.
if it was as related to altitude as it seems, it would be expected that scotland's west coast would be wetter, as the mountains are that bit higher; and even if you compare like with like as you suggest, there is just more, and higher, high ground in scotland, so overall it would be reasonable to say its 'wetter'- though it would possibly depend on what each of us means by 'wetter'...
intuitively to me, the west of scotland would be wetter, if only because wales and the lakes are in the rain shadow of ireland, which may have taken some of the moisture out the air, whereas the westerlies hitting the west highlands have had 2500 miles of open ocean to get properly saturated.
but accurate data presumably exists only for places that have weather stations, which are absent through most of the areas of interest. seathwaite shows up as the wettest inhabited place in the UK, but i find it hard to believe that somewhere in knoydart or around glen shiel wouldnt top that.
all of them are virtually deserts though compared to puerto eden in chile, similar temperate maritime climate but mean 5,745 mm annually!
cheers
gregor
its an interesting point this, and one that definitive answers seem hard to come by. its true snowdonia and the lakes are in the 'dark blue' parts of the met office rainfall maps showing highest average rainfall and most rainy days; but it doesnt show the peak values in those areas. it would be interesting to see whether another isohyet (i had to look it up...!) at 3000mm, or even 4000mm would still include the lakes/snowdonia, as the peak one is at 2,500mm. from its wiki page, ben nevis summit annual rainfall is 4,081 or 4,350mm; it had a weather observatory to generate that figure. snowdon's wiki page says 5,000mm- but the reference cited is a rather old textbook by the looks of it, and its not clear whether that is based on data from observations.
if it was as related to altitude as it seems, it would be expected that scotland's west coast would be wetter, as the mountains are that bit higher; and even if you compare like with like as you suggest, there is just more, and higher, high ground in scotland, so overall it would be reasonable to say its 'wetter'- though it would possibly depend on what each of us means by 'wetter'...
intuitively to me, the west of scotland would be wetter, if only because wales and the lakes are in the rain shadow of ireland, which may have taken some of the moisture out the air, whereas the westerlies hitting the west highlands have had 2500 miles of open ocean to get properly saturated.
but accurate data presumably exists only for places that have weather stations, which are absent through most of the areas of interest. seathwaite shows up as the wettest inhabited place in the UK, but i find it hard to believe that somewhere in knoydart or around glen shiel wouldnt top that.
all of them are virtually deserts though compared to puerto eden in chile, similar temperate maritime climate but mean 5,745 mm annually!
cheers
gregor
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
I thought you might enjoy this xkcd.com/1324/
Hopefully the link works, posting on my phone
Though your theory works as lofoten is also exposed to masses of westerlies coming in off the Atlantic and my god they get some crappy weather (climbing wise)
I thought you might enjoy this xkcd.com/1324/
Hopefully the link works, posting on my phone
Though your theory works as lofoten is also exposed to masses of westerlies coming in off the Atlantic and my god they get some crappy weather (climbing wise)
In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:
The predominate wind in winter is SW AFAIK, in this case ireland would be be causing a rain shadow for most of West coast mainland scotland by my reckoning and wales wouldn't be in in at all. You've also got all the islands off the west coast of Scotland taking rain out of Westerlies.
Anyway my hypothesis was only a rough one not too be taken too literally But I think in general when comparing like with like (ie a mountain valley/glen an open lowland field land or indeed a mountain top) there isn't that much in it North to South in the UK weather wise mainly gets colder and generally windier as you go north, rain and sunshine levels seem mostly determined by closeness to East and West coasts or being very landlocked! Although you do get some very unusual micro climates in places like West Penwith or the Moray Firth etc!
The predominate wind in winter is SW AFAIK, in this case ireland would be be causing a rain shadow for most of West coast mainland scotland by my reckoning and wales wouldn't be in in at all. You've also got all the islands off the west coast of Scotland taking rain out of Westerlies.
Anyway my hypothesis was only a rough one not too be taken too literally But I think in general when comparing like with like (ie a mountain valley/glen an open lowland field land or indeed a mountain top) there isn't that much in it North to South in the UK weather wise mainly gets colder and generally windier as you go north, rain and sunshine levels seem mostly determined by closeness to East and West coasts or being very landlocked! Although you do get some very unusual micro climates in places like West Penwith or the Moray Firth etc!
Post edited at 23:40
In reply to Kemics:
I believe Lofoten gets around half the rainfall of Fort William (which gets around the same as Bergen). It can certainly be wet in Lofoten, but it is not nearly as unreliable as seems to be often thought (possibly because the old guide book was written by a climber from Colorado rather than one from the UK!).
> Though your theory works as lofoten is also exposed to masses of westerlies coming in off the Atlantic and my god they get some crappy weather (climbing wise)
I believe Lofoten gets around half the rainfall of Fort William (which gets around the same as Bergen). It can certainly be wet in Lofoten, but it is not nearly as unreliable as seems to be often thought (possibly because the old guide book was written by a climber from Colorado rather than one from the UK!).
In reply to Kemics:
It depends what you see climbing as. If it's big generic, striking lines, then Pabbay and Scottish stuff is probably all you'd be left with. On a serious note though, I would recommend the North York Moors on the world stage. The routes are tiny, the lines can be poor, but what you have is the refined nugual of trad climbing - the celebration of the singular move and unbelievable body positions, which (if you're into climate maps) are dry far more often than more or less any other part of the UK. For me, that's what climbing is about and a similarly-minded Italian, Austrian, German or whatever would see that. Piles of massive cliffs don't necessarily mean great routes.
It depends what you see climbing as. If it's big generic, striking lines, then Pabbay and Scottish stuff is probably all you'd be left with. On a serious note though, I would recommend the North York Moors on the world stage. The routes are tiny, the lines can be poor, but what you have is the refined nugual of trad climbing - the celebration of the singular move and unbelievable body positions, which (if you're into climate maps) are dry far more often than more or less any other part of the UK. For me, that's what climbing is about and a similarly-minded Italian, Austrian, German or whatever would see that. Piles of massive cliffs don't necessarily mean great routes.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Yes. Good lines, lovely rock, spectacular scenary, but (and it's a big one) its thwarted by conditions. I've never experienced grease like it. I'd still highly recommend it, but it would be seriously iffy recommending a foreign climber go there for 2 weeks, even if they were only wanting to do mid-grade stuff. It's also one of the wettest places on the Metoffice records. You're right though!
Yes. Good lines, lovely rock, spectacular scenary, but (and it's a big one) its thwarted by conditions. I've never experienced grease like it. I'd still highly recommend it, but it would be seriously iffy recommending a foreign climber go there for 2 weeks, even if they were only wanting to do mid-grade stuff. It's also one of the wettest places on the Metoffice records. You're right though!
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Like many of the best places in the UK (baring the N York Moors obv it's on the rainy west side, and very exposed to storms down there. But yeah when it's nice its brilliant.
Like many of the best places in the UK (baring the N York Moors obv it's on the rainy west side, and very exposed to storms down there. But yeah when it's nice its brilliant.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I'd like to get back there. I think living down there would be pretty cool. A lot of unclimbed stuff.
I'd like to get back there. I think living down there would be pretty cool. A lot of unclimbed stuff.
In reply to Kemics:
If I was planning a weeks fixed date climbing in the UK I reckon they should ideally stay flexible depending on the weather. Despite what you say about the weather the Eastern Edges are actually fairly reliable especially at places like rivelin that are off the moor.
Other reliable areas that are genuinely internationally good.... hmmmmm...... basically its quite a big gamble. The west coast of mainland Britain often has its best summer weather in may or june. July and August are often bad. If you are very close to the coasts (within a few hundred metres or less) it is drier and sunnier on average but its going to be more exposed to the wind.... Some you win some you loose!
If I was planning a weeks fixed date climbing in the UK I reckon they should ideally stay flexible depending on the weather. Despite what you say about the weather the Eastern Edges are actually fairly reliable especially at places like rivelin that are off the moor.
Other reliable areas that are genuinely internationally good.... hmmmmm...... basically its quite a big gamble. The west coast of mainland Britain often has its best summer weather in may or june. July and August are often bad. If you are very close to the coasts (within a few hundred metres or less) it is drier and sunnier on average but its going to be more exposed to the wind.... Some you win some you loose!
In reply to GrahamD:
Fair Head is awesome for sure but not quite the same feeling of commitment as with a tidal sea cliff. Mind you, better an ab into a sea washed ledge than half an hour bush whacking through the heather!
Fair Head is awesome for sure but not quite the same feeling of commitment as with a tidal sea cliff. Mind you, better an ab into a sea washed ledge than half an hour bush whacking through the heather!
In reply to Robert Durran:
Pembroke rock is generally better than Gogarth, no contest there, but Gogarth wins in the adventure stakes hands down! Bigger, badder, generally more serious. Horses for courses, ideally a visitor would experience both and decide for themselves.
Pembroke rock is generally better than Gogarth, no contest there, but Gogarth wins in the adventure stakes hands down! Bigger, badder, generally more serious. Horses for courses, ideally a visitor would experience both and decide for themselves.
In reply to Kemics:
Does the title really mean International significance or one that a foreign climber might like to visit? The former would rule out a lot of the proposed sites.
As an example the Cromlech has a lot of good routes on it, and a lot of history but as a piece of rock it's hardly unique. That's true of most of N Wales mountain and that in the Lakes as well.
Does the title really mean International significance or one that a foreign climber might like to visit? The former would rule out a lot of the proposed sites.
As an example the Cromlech has a lot of good routes on it, and a lot of history but as a piece of rock it's hardly unique. That's true of most of N Wales mountain and that in the Lakes as well.
In reply to wbo:
Yes they are definitely 2 different things. For example, Dumbarton rock has international significance, but somewhere a foreign climber would like to visit? Surely not!
(btw I am aware, of course, that this has happened!)
Yes they are definitely 2 different things. For example, Dumbarton rock has international significance, but somewhere a foreign climber would like to visit? Surely not!
(btw I am aware, of course, that this has happened!)
In reply to Kemics:
The thing that the UK has over most other countries is a huge variety of climbing within a relatively small area. So it is quite possible to climb on Gritstone, limestone, slate, granite,shale (if you must), rhyolite, etc. In moorland settings, quarried settings, sea cliffs, mountains, river settings, and trad, sport, boulder, DWS.
The gritstone is pretty unique to the UK and Stanage alone is a venue of world significance - 5 miles of rock at all levels of grade that can not be found anywhere else. Sure the weather is crap at times but that is true for the UK as a whole.
To be honest the unique thing about the UK is the strong trad tradition it has. Pembroke is unique mainly because of this, without its trad it would just be another sea cliff only without the guaranteed sunshine.
The other unique thing about the UK (as far as I am aware) are its sea stacks.
The thing that the UK has over most other countries is a huge variety of climbing within a relatively small area. So it is quite possible to climb on Gritstone, limestone, slate, granite,shale (if you must), rhyolite, etc. In moorland settings, quarried settings, sea cliffs, mountains, river settings, and trad, sport, boulder, DWS.
The gritstone is pretty unique to the UK and Stanage alone is a venue of world significance - 5 miles of rock at all levels of grade that can not be found anywhere else. Sure the weather is crap at times but that is true for the UK as a whole.
To be honest the unique thing about the UK is the strong trad tradition it has. Pembroke is unique mainly because of this, without its trad it would just be another sea cliff only without the guaranteed sunshine.
The other unique thing about the UK (as far as I am aware) are its sea stacks.
In reply to Franco Cookson:
Though relative to the rest of the south west, it's about the driest part, so can feel a veritable Shangri-La of good conditions compared to somewhere like Dartmoor. Also the forecasters are very often pretty pessimistic about it and the rain often clears quickly, or one coast is often dry when another is wet - handy since they're only 5 miles apart.
The greasiness is bad though. Like anywhere, Penwith is all about picking the right cliff on any given day.
As you say, Cornwall is a good place to live if you're into new routes (at any grade), again, it's just knowing where to look. That said, I see the cool looking routes you boys put up on your moors and it's a wonder how so much of that stuff could have been left untouched for so long.
> It's also one of the wettest places on the Metoffice records. You're right though!
Though relative to the rest of the south west, it's about the driest part, so can feel a veritable Shangri-La of good conditions compared to somewhere like Dartmoor. Also the forecasters are very often pretty pessimistic about it and the rain often clears quickly, or one coast is often dry when another is wet - handy since they're only 5 miles apart.
The greasiness is bad though. Like anywhere, Penwith is all about picking the right cliff on any given day.
As you say, Cornwall is a good place to live if you're into new routes (at any grade), again, it's just knowing where to look. That said, I see the cool looking routes you boys put up on your moors and it's a wonder how so much of that stuff could have been left untouched for so long.
Post edited at 08:16
In reply to Duncan Bourne:
A quick wiki gives this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_(geology)#Examples
> The other unique thing about the UK (as far as I am aware) are its sea stacks.
A quick wiki gives this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stack_(geology)#Examples
In reply to Kemics:
I would have to say the grit for International uniqueness i Suppose.
I think most of the international importance of UK Climbing Lies more in the historical impact of its crags, routes, characters, and Traditions. Unparalleled elsewhere i reckon.
And the Quantity and wide diversity of climbing to be found in a relatively small country.
I would have to say the grit for International uniqueness i Suppose.
I think most of the international importance of UK Climbing Lies more in the historical impact of its crags, routes, characters, and Traditions. Unparalleled elsewhere i reckon.
And the Quantity and wide diversity of climbing to be found in a relatively small country.
Post edited at 08:22
In reply to felt:
Yup Uk seems to have far more than other European countries (mind you some of those are of dubious quality, but I suppose that just adds to the charm)
Yup Uk seems to have far more than other European countries (mind you some of those are of dubious quality, but I suppose that just adds to the charm)
In reply to Misha:
Yes, but Pabbay/Mingulay easily beats Gogarth hand down at it's own game (and the rock is miles better). But if I had to choose one venue for our foreign visitors it would still be Pembroke just for the sheer volume of consistent high quality in a classic sea cliff environment.
> Pembroke rock is generally better than Gogarth, no contest there, but Gogarth wins in the adventure stakes hands down! Bigger, badder, generally more serious. Horses for courses, ideally a visitor would experience both and decide for themselves.
Yes, but Pabbay/Mingulay easily beats Gogarth hand down at it's own game (and the rock is miles better). But if I had to choose one venue for our foreign visitors it would still be Pembroke just for the sheer volume of consistent high quality in a classic sea cliff environment.
Post edited at 09:25
In reply to aln:
Of course we all absolutely love our mountain crags, but there is a danger that our foreign visitor might get there and wonder where the mountains have got to.
> What about Carnmore Crag, Beinn Eighe or Ben Nevis?
Of course we all absolutely love our mountain crags, but there is a danger that our foreign visitor might get there and wonder where the mountains have got to.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Are you talking about their lack of height, or the weather?
> Of course we all absolutely love our mountain crags, but there is a danger that our foreign visitor might get there and wonder where the mountains have got to.
Are you talking about their lack of height, or the weather?
In reply to wbo:
the quality of the rock and the moves it gives puts N Wales very high in the list in terms of quality of individual pitches. As good as anything elsewhere in the UK at my grade. However the weather is a major point against it. I guess if it rains you can head to gogarth.
the quality of the rock and the moves it gives puts N Wales very high in the list in terms of quality of individual pitches. As good as anything elsewhere in the UK at my grade. However the weather is a major point against it. I guess if it rains you can head to gogarth.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Don't take this the wrong way I've not been to either so this is as much a question as a statement.
But does Pabbay beat Gogarth at its own game? Pabay looks great espeically in the upper grades, but is the rock really much better than say Garbh Bhien south face?
Gogarth just looks crazy, mental rock formations like nothing else I've seen and the chossy rock between the good sections is part of the Gogarth experience no?
Don't take this the wrong way I've not been to either so this is as much a question as a statement.
But does Pabbay beat Gogarth at its own game? Pabay looks great espeically in the upper grades, but is the rock really much better than say Garbh Bhien south face?
Gogarth just looks crazy, mental rock formations like nothing else I've seen and the chossy rock between the good sections is part of the Gogarth experience no?
Post edited at 12:04
In reply to Robert Durran:
I've only done piggots route on Beinn Eighe but I didn't think it the same quality as routes I've done elsewhere in Scotland. Rock wise I think my favourite areas for decent length mountain multipitch are probably the Cairngorms, Arran or Glencoe. The thing is when it comes to granite mountain stuff surely the Alps rules? and Glencoe does rain a lot
I've only done piggots route on Beinn Eighe but I didn't think it the same quality as routes I've done elsewhere in Scotland. Rock wise I think my favourite areas for decent length mountain multipitch are probably the Cairngorms, Arran or Glencoe. The thing is when it comes to granite mountain stuff surely the Alps rules? and Glencoe does rain a lot
Post edited at 12:09
In reply to Kemics:
I can't believe Lundy has hardly had a mention yet! I'm soon to move abroad and Lundy is probably the only place, along with Scotland, that I would specifically get on a plane to return for.
I can't believe Lundy has hardly had a mention yet! I'm soon to move abroad and Lundy is probably the only place, along with Scotland, that I would specifically get on a plane to return for.
In reply to Robert Durran:
I haven't been to Pabbay/Mingulay yet but that is about to change, so I might agree with you then!
I haven't been to Pabbay/Mingulay yet but that is about to change, so I might agree with you then!
In reply to aln:
Their height. A visitor from Patagonia would laugh at the mountains but think the weather was great.
> Are you talking about their lack of height, or the weather?
Their height. A visitor from Patagonia would laugh at the mountains but think the weather was great.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
As I said: easily (IMO)
Different rock types, both superb.
> But does Pabbay beat Gogarth at its own game?
As I said: easily (IMO)
> Pabbay looks great espeically in the upper grades, but is the rock really much better than say Garbh Bheinnn south face?
Different rock types, both superb.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
The real quality on Beinn Eighe is mostly on the Far East Wall, starts at E1, and is utterly brilliant - as good as anything else in the UK.
> I've only done piggots route on Beinn Eighe but I didn't think it the same quality as routes I've done elsewhere in Scotland.
The real quality on Beinn Eighe is mostly on the Far East Wall, starts at E1, and is utterly brilliant - as good as anything else in the UK.
In reply to Misha:
Yes, but it's going to be so crowded that you'll find you might as well be on Lundy
> I haven't been to Pabbay/Mingulay yet but that is about to change, so I might agree with you then!
Yes, but it's going to be so crowded that you'll find you might as well be on Lundy
In reply to Robert Durran:
I though pabbay and Garbh Bheinnn south wall are both Gneiss no? UKC logbook says so anyways.
> As I said: easily (IMO)
> Different rock types, both superb.
I though pabbay and Garbh Bheinnn south wall are both Gneiss no? UKC logbook says so anyways.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I (probably!) stand corrected. From memory (not climbed there for a long time), I though Garbh Bheinn was quartzite. Interestingly, sea washed gneiss is usually very different to climb on from inland gneiss, which tends to be much sharper and more fractured and, in fact, possibly gives climbing more like quartzite than than sea washed gneiss.
> I though pabbay and Garbh Bheinnn south wall are both Gneiss no? UKC logbook says so anyways.
I (probably!) stand corrected. From memory (not climbed there for a long time), I though Garbh Bheinn was quartzite. Interestingly, sea washed gneiss is usually very different to climb on from inland gneiss, which tends to be much sharper and more fractured and, in fact, possibly gives climbing more like quartzite than than sea washed gneiss.
In reply to Robert Durran:
Yeah I'm sure Garbh Bheinn is gneiss, ukc just backed up what I already thought.
I found the little quartzite I have climbed to be quite angular almost cuboid and quite sharp and low friction. Garbh Bheinn I didn't find like that. More like a cross between granite, schist and gritstone - very nice to climb and very varied although not normally too long to a positive hold and as you say pretty fractured and featured in places (but smooth and blank where the glaciers have been). Quite different to the gneiss I've climbed in the Alps.
The only sea washed gneiss I've climbed is at Shiegra but that place is unique - so many jugs!
Stevo
Yeah I'm sure Garbh Bheinn is gneiss, ukc just backed up what I already thought.
I found the little quartzite I have climbed to be quite angular almost cuboid and quite sharp and low friction. Garbh Bheinn I didn't find like that. More like a cross between granite, schist and gritstone - very nice to climb and very varied although not normally too long to a positive hold and as you say pretty fractured and featured in places (but smooth and blank where the glaciers have been). Quite different to the gneiss I've climbed in the Alps.
The only sea washed gneiss I've climbed is at Shiegra but that place is unique - so many jugs!
Stevo
In reply to Robert Durran:
The NW highlands would be an option for a trip IMO, basing yourself somewhere up near Reiff / Assynt. That end of the world is pretty unique IMO and you have a great choice of crags depending on the weather. OK not many of the crags on their own are world class but the experience as a whole would be IMO. One bonus of being up that way is that typically it rains less than further south and the sea cliffs are not that far from the mountains.
The NW highlands would be an option for a trip IMO, basing yourself somewhere up near Reiff / Assynt. That end of the world is pretty unique IMO and you have a great choice of crags depending on the weather. OK not many of the crags on their own are world class but the experience as a whole would be IMO. One bonus of being up that way is that typically it rains less than further south and the sea cliffs are not that far from the mountains.
Post edited at 16:00
In reply to Robert Durran:
Your comment seems a bit odd considering they're bigger cliffs than any you've recommended on this thread.
> Their height. A visitor from Patagonia would laugh at the mountains but think the weather was great.
Your comment seems a bit odd considering they're bigger cliffs than any you've recommended on this thread.
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