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Sacrificed on the Alter at Rivelin last sunday

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 JonathanJones 23 Mar 2014
Hi,

Just an update for anyone who saw me fall on Altar Crack at Rivelin last Sunday - I fractured 2 Vertebrae landing on the Alter back first after slipping on the lay back section.

I now know similar injuries have occurred before and would like anyone else doing the route (which is a really nice line;if a bit polished) to be aware of the Alter!

I'm mostly back up and about with no long term damage hopefully. And quite frankly hope it pisses down the next 3 weekends.

Jonathan
 The Potato 23 Mar 2014
In reply to JonathanJones:

fcuk 2 vertebrae?! that sound mightily unpleasant, im surprised but glad to hear you are back up and about after only a week.
 Jamie B 23 Mar 2014
In reply to JonathanJones:

Surely worth an upgrade? HVS 4c/5a I reckon.
In reply to Jamie B:

> Surely worth an upgrade? HVS 4c/5a I reckon.

Absolutely agreed. The grade has never been right. The mere fact that you can injure yourself so seriously warrants the grade. Your grading is spot on. It's not that move for move it is particularly desperate it's just that it's so relentless, committing and unforgiving. Also, not so easy to place protection safely in that rather extreme layback position (old problem of not being able to see into the crack properly). If you're climbing strongly at HVS you'll find it a breeze; if you're climbing at about medium VS and are not v experienced or strong, you could easily be in for a very nasty experience.
 The Pylon King 23 Mar 2014
In reply to JonathanJones:

Yeah thats a nasty little route. HVS 4c
 DerwentDiluted 23 Mar 2014
In reply to JonathanJones:

Just out of interest, how did you get off the crag? Self reliance is great but with any hint of spinal injury get on the phone to the red jacketed friends you never knew you had! Glad it worked out for you but the next person might not walk again.
 Rick Graham 23 Mar 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Best advice from "The Black Cliff " book after a similar experience on Cloggy Corner. "never layback when you can jam and bridge"

Last time on Altar crack, jammed and bridged, steady 4c territory for grit and well protected cos the crack is in your face.
OP JonathanJones 23 Mar 2014
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

ERM.. Walked off. Which I know is not best but it was my lower back/bum and I could move my legs fine/ no numbness. Muscular pain only. In hindsight now I know the verabrae fractured I would have stayed; it was not clear cut with it being a serious injury or just a bruise which would be a waste of resources for MR.
 Chris Craggs Global Crag Moderator 23 Mar 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> Absolutely agreed. The grade has never been right. The mere fact that you can injure yourself so seriously warrants the grade.

You can injure yourself on anything if you don't get the gear in. The key with Altar Crack is to get something in well up the crack before you 'go for it'. I agree with Rick, solid VS 4c.


Chris
OP JonathanJones 23 Mar 2014
In reply to Rick Graham:

I thought of this after- next time I'll do it jamming and bridging which removes the risk of you hitting the alter as you fall down instead of being pushed by high feet in layback position. When I fell I didn't deck out.
OP JonathanJones 23 Mar 2014
In reply to Chris Craggs:

I went with a cam placed as high as I could reach which held. I think the trick is not to slip on that section, a metre higher or lower would probably be fine up avoid the alter. I would still not give it more than VS though.
 Jonny2vests 23 Mar 2014
In reply to Rick Graham:

> Best advice from "The Black Cliff " book after a similar experience on Cloggy Corner. "never layback when you can jam and bridge"

I kind of think its best to do a bit of everything, jam / bridge at the rests where the decent footholds are and place high gear, layback the smooth bits in between and don't hang about.
 JHiley 23 Mar 2014
In reply to Chris Craggs:

Hope the OP recovers quickly and is back climbing soon!

I don't pretend to have any idea about how grading works but I was wondering why the laybacks on great north road and goliaths groove which have basically the same moves but with actual footholds and in a position where you probably couldn't hurt yourself are considered HVS laybacks (even if the crux is elsewhere on those and they are harder overall) and this is VS?
I appreciate I seem to answer my own question but I'm pretty sure I've heard the layback sections of those routes being called HVS in isolation. If I keep moving up grades will the footholds and protection get better and better?
 Jamie B 23 Mar 2014
In reply to JHiley:

> If I keep moving up grades will the footholds and protection get better and better?

Yes, E9s have massive foot-ledges and hexes every foot. Parthian Shot is a good example.

 JHiley 23 Mar 2014
In reply to Jamie B:

cool, I'm off to burbage

In all seriousness I do think this felt a bit mean compared to those routes though. More in terms of the technical grade.
 riff156 23 Mar 2014
In reply to JonathanJones:

Hi Jonathon I was there that day I was the one that got your gear back, sorry to hear you bust a couple of bones , you did manage to walk of ok though, hope you mend soon

Steve
 thomaspomfrett 24 Mar 2014
In reply to JonathanJones:

I find the grading at Rivelin bizarre. Altar Crack felt much harder than both Croton Oil and Blizzard Ridge to me (took my first lead fall on it) and the move getting over the lip on Roof Route brings me out in a cold sweat (felt nails at HVS). The owl nesting in roof route is my hero, it gives me an excuse to stay off it a bit longer!
 GrahamD 24 Mar 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

> Absolutely agreed. The grade has never been right.

Top end VS has always seemed spot on - if the VS grade is still mean something you can't upgrade stuff like this. Its got stacks of gear if you want it so its not like its inherently a dangerous route.
 Al Evans 24 Mar 2014
In reply to thomaspomfrett:

I used to climb a lot at Rivelin, it was my local crag, but I did a lot of the harder routes there, including Brush Off, before I dare set foot on Alter Crack, it's always been an undergraded sandbag. If you are strong and going really well and confident it might seem VS 4c, but really it's good HVS.
 Al Evans 24 Mar 2014
In reply to GrahamD:

> Top end VS has always seemed spot on - if the VS grade is still mean something you can't upgrade stuff like this. Its got stacks of gear if you want it so its not like its inherently a dangerous route.

Of course I'm talking in the days pre-friends.
 GrahamD 24 Mar 2014
In reply to Al Evans:

Without Friends protection would be harder to arrange for sure. With them you practically top rope it until the last move out the top (at least I do !)
In reply to GrahamD:

Still quite difficult to do in that rather extreme layback position - maybe that was my mistake? But, IIRC, and it was a long time ago, the crack was too narrow to take ordinary hand jams and too wide for finger jams ?? ?
 Pagan 24 Mar 2014
In reply to JHiley:

Altar Crack is a very pure layback but it's only about two moves above the cam before you reach a jug you could hang an oil tanker from; it's easy to the top after that. Great North Road has a lot more climbing to do on it, hence the harder grade. The layback section on its own would be about the same as AC I'd have thought; it's years since I did it though.

The idea that Croton Oil is easier is laughable - the climbing on AC is very basic, just strenuous. If you hang around to think about it too much then it'll feel hard. If you don't think too much and just get on with it then it's fine.
 Blue Straggler 24 Mar 2014
In reply to Pagan:

I onsighted Croton Oil, HVS being not only my top onsight grade but also very much not guaranteed, last year which was a rather weak trad leading year for me. It was my only HVS lead. I did it after barely any warm-up (just seconded an HS), a poor night's sleep, feeling stressed about the clutch on my car, no breakfast, no coffee. I didn't breeze up it but essentially found it to be steady with maybe one sketchy moment. Later the same day I seconded AC and even on second I found it harder work than Croton Oil. Just my own opinion I suppose
 JamButty 24 Mar 2014
In reply to JonathanJones:

Glad to hear you're sort of in one piece. Have you just been discharged with no further action other than rest?

 CurlyStevo 24 Mar 2014
In reply to JHiley:
you can bridge and jam (mostly great finger jams) Great North Road all the way until the last section (maybe top 25%) where I think I did a small probably unnecessary layback. Its probably slightly more technical this way (maybe just 5b) but its much much less sustained and easier to get the gear in too.
Post edited at 13:49
In reply to CurlyStevo:

Yes, I found GNR in some ways more amenable though a bit more technical - but in an enjoyable way; breaking down into varied and interesting sections. When you're going strongly, Altar is probably, overall, the easier climb, but it's less enjoyable. GNR is of course about 3 or 4 times longer, so more daunting in that respect only.
 CurlyStevo 24 Mar 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I've only seconded Altar Crack but I thought it very hard work for a VS.
 GrahamD 24 Mar 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:

> I've only seconded Altar Crack but I thought it very hard work for a VS.

It is, which is why its at the top of the grade range.
 Cake 24 Mar 2014
In reply to thomaspomfrett:

> I find the grading at Rivelin bizarre. Altar Crack felt much harder than both Croton Oil and Blizzard Ridge to me (took my first lead fall on it) and the move getting over the lip on Roof Route brings me out in a cold sweat (felt nails at HVS).

Not bizarre grading, but there are quite a few sandbags. Altar crack is perhaps the hardest VS I've done, but the grade is right. Easy picking is clearly hard at E2 - and there are other sandbags at that grade. And don't talk to me about Non-such being HVS. I've failed on it twice.

However, The original route, Outsider and April Fool at E2 and Blizzard Ridge, HVS are soft at the grade. Roof route is not at all bad at HVS. It is very clear from the bottom that it requires a cam in a sensible position above you and that you will need to pull hard on some good hand-jams until you get a foot on and there are not surprises.

Owen
 Offwidth 24 Mar 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:

It is hard work (but just about fair in my view), its also easier than other less famous VS grit laybacks like Downes, Beech, Green Crack (Black Rocks etc), Black Crack (Black Rocks). A good number of people I've watched on it seem to be a bit gung ho or flaily. I jammed comfortably up to place gear as high as possible, retreated to shake out, then went for it and where rope stretch was getting me close to potentially hitting things, stopped and placed another runner (with a foot in a poor break).

As ever, our lists are here:

http://offwidth.uptosummit.com/laybacks_topten.html
 CurlyStevo 24 Mar 2014
In reply to Offwidth:
Yeah I manager AC in one push on second without climbing up and down (and whilst retrieving gear) - only just made it. As a sport grade I would have thought F5+ myself which to my mind puts it in the HVS category but being an onsight I could have fluffed the sequence.
Post edited at 15:42
OP JonathanJones 24 Mar 2014
In reply to JamButty:

Yep, no heavy lifting and it will mend as both are stable fractures.
OP JonathanJones 24 Mar 2014
In response to riff156:

Thanks for retrieving the gear for a quick exit. I know Liam appreciated it especially since they were his cams!
 thomaspomfrett 24 Mar 2014
In reply to Cake:

I agree on original route, I only seconded it but it didn't feel too bad at all for E2.

<Beta Alert> I found the jams in the roof on roof route bomber, I got my heel up over the lip but when I tried to pull up onto the face I found that the crack above the lip flares out and I struggled to get a good jam in (I have very thin hands which I don't think helped). Agree that the cam is easy to place and bomber so I had no problem falling off it at least! I think it depends so much on your preferred style, I'm happier on technical routes rather than thuggy ones hence why I probably struggled but in my personal opinion it's the hardest HVS I've ever attempted.
 Bulls Crack 24 Mar 2014
In reply to CurlyStevo:

It seemed harder than Bull's Crack (HVS 5a)...and I should know
In reply to GrahamD:
> (In reply to Gordon Stainforth)
>
> [...]
>
> Top end VS has always seemed spot on - if the VS grade is still mean something you can't upgrade stuff like this. Its got stacks of gear if you want it so its not like its inherently a dangerous route.

Agreed: The gear is there and it is down to the climber to decide whether they push on or sag on the runner they ran out of energy placing.
In reply to Offwidth:

> It is hard work (but just about fair in my view), its also easier than other less famous VS grit laybacks like Downes, Beech, Green Crack (Black Rocks etc), Black Crack (Black Rocks).

Both Green and Black Cracks are a lot easier. Not sure I've done the other ones.
 DerwentDiluted 25 Mar 2014
In reply to JonathanJones:
Any landing you can walk away from is a good one. Glad you are on the mend. I'd just hate to think that people were inhibited about asking for help in this kind of instance.

Ref the Grade, I'd say top end VS was about right. There is plenty of gear but placing it in a single push is demanding for the VS leader. Climbing it tactically with a down climb to recover is best for most. I'd put AC next to both Crewcut at Millstone and David at Burbage South, both of which offer a similar style of climbing but with scantier gear options and correspondingly get HVS 4c. All three routes are a bit of the 'pro or go' variety but AC has better options. If I remember correctly all 3 have a rest option before topping out also but its been over ten years since I was on Crewcut and David.
Post edited at 08:29
 Offwidth 25 Mar 2014
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I beg to differ. I did a layback fest oncd with all of those over a few weeks; the difference to those two isnt much btw and is partly related to normal conditions (Altar is very clean). Altar with modern pro is only HVS with poor (gung ho?) tactics. It might also be HVS if you finished direct with blinkers at the top ignoring half rests/easier climbing slightly on the right.
 Offwidth 25 Mar 2014
In reply to DerwentDiluted:

I find David noticably easier and Crew Cut slightly harder. Same sort of tactic: offwidth up a move or so and place high gear then return and rest....then layback to glory. The relative grade needs to take into accout how useless climbers are these days with offwidths. I'd, still say Crew Cut harder, then AC then David.
 Rick Graham 25 Mar 2014
In reply to Offwidth:

I think some of the blame for the routes' reputation lies with the guidebook author ( ducks).

Described as a layback crack, which can influence climbers tactics.

The old FRCC (1960's) guides, for instance, made a deliberate effort not to describe how to climb a pitch, just where it went.
 Offwidth 25 Mar 2014
In reply to Rick Graham:

Fair discussion point. Yet it is much easier as mainly a layback and I think where cracks have this clear nature its helpful and more characterful to to say so. In contrast other famous 'laybacks' like Brookes or Black Crack at Black Rocks work just as well as a jam or layback at about the same grade. I'd add that realy old guidebooks often had very detailed hokey cokey descriptions.
 Rick Graham 25 Mar 2014
In reply to Offwidth:

I agree.

The point I was trying to impart was for climbers to engage their brain and think " how am I going to climb and protect this pitch before me? ".

Layback, off width, handjam, finger crack etc should be treated as a way of locating a crack not how to climb it.
In reply to Offwidth:

> I find David noticably easier and Crew Cut slightly harder. Same sort of tactic: offwidth up a move or so and place high gear then return and rest....then layback to glory. The relative grade needs to take into accout how useless climbers are these days with offwidths. I'd, still say Crew Cut harder, then AC then David.

Which bit of Crew Cut did you layback? I offwidthed from the bottom, then ended up basically climbing the right arete with one arm/leg stuffed into the crack up to the ledge. There was a bit of laybacking right at the top, but it wasn't very hard.

I did Kremlin Crack, Fringe Benefit and Altar Crack on the same day. Altar Crack was the hardest by a country mile. It's also considerably (for me) harder than Blizzard Ridge and Croton Oil. I can't layback, mind.
 Offwidth 25 Mar 2014
In reply to victim of mathematics:

Facing right from the stsrt of the hard bit after retreating from high gear placed on offwidth.

Its not fair to compare obvious ptotectable awkwardness or physicallity with blindish delicate face or arete climbing; having said that there is less than half a grade difference in all of them in my view and individual experiences and strengths will vary a lot. Another tip for something like Altar is try and take some weight by leaning your side in countering feet.
 Jimbo C 25 Mar 2014
In reply to victim of mathematics:

> I did Kremlin Crack, Fringe Benefit and Altar Crack on the same day. Altar Crack was the hardest by a country mile. It's also considerably (for me) harder than Blizzard Ridge and Croton Oil. I can't layback, mind.

I agree that of the routes you mention Altar Crack is the most strenuous, but the grading system takes other things into account - that 5a/5b move on Fringe Benefit before you get the good gear is not strenuous but it is delicate and serious.

Glad the OP walked away, hope you recover well.

 Mick Ward 25 Mar 2014
In reply to Jimbo C:

> Glad the OP walked away, hope you recover well.

Agreed. That altar's very ominous indeed - always in the back of your mind. I've only ever soloed AC - a few times, over the years, maybe easier as you can just sprint up the crack, no hanging around or messing with pro. But so aware of the altar below - especially the first time, a dank, drizzly day, mid-week, alone on the crag.

I suppose the perfectly named route.

[To the OP]

Take your recovery gently... give yourself time.

Mick


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