UKC

Well if there was ever a case for banning guided paying punters on Everest it was the utterly clueless posh idiot 'Molly'.

In reply to Removed User:

Yaah, was a bit!

In reply to Removed User:


Yes, very cringeworthy item. Kenton seemed to be squirming somewhat to justify his position.

Mind you, the next item about Gwyneth Paltrow put things in perspective a bit.....took cringeworthy pretentious bollocks to a whole new level.

In reply to Removed User:

link? Or at least what programme - was it the Today programme?- I wasn't listening this AM

In reply to toad:

Yes the today programme, just before the sport.

In reply to jshields:

ta.

In reply to Robert Durran:

You clearly have anger issues and you need to cognicize this frustration and empower yourself to allow you to be the person you want to see yourself emerging in to.

(I think I got that right)

In reply to Shani:

What a load of old Goop

In reply to toad:


It is not often that R4 knocks me sideways but the guff that woman was coming out with this morning was hillarious. I think Evan Davis was being polite by simply pissing himself laughing (along with the rest of the studio).

In reply to Removed User:

I was half asleep, but did I hear Kenton saying "they're even proposing putting a ladder on the Hillary Step! This is outrageous, no respect for the climbing skills of Hillary etc!" (I paraphrase slightly)...

...I thought there was a ladder on the Hillary Step already, and had been since some Chinese expedition in the 60s??

In reply to Nic:

The ladders the Chinese put up are on the Chinese (well Tibetan, but that distinction doesn't worry the Chinese) side. Climbing without the ladders would be much, much harder than the Hillary step, which is a scramble.

In reply to Nic:

The ladder is on the North Ridge no the Tourist Route.

In reply to Removed User:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p01w7qx1
Link to the Everest bit.

In reply to dapoy:
Oh god she makes me want to puke, cringing. And he's pretty awful as well. Open-ness of the mountain, what a joke, open to those with the cash.

In reply to JayPee630:

My main concern with Everest is the number of oxygen wasting motivational speakers it appears to generate.

In reply to Removed User:

Climb Everest, the new gap year challenge.

Not sure either of this managed to give off any impression other than Everest is for sale and if you have the dosh then up you go.

In reply to Robert Durran:


I've got a lot of respect for Kenton as a climber but his position here is indefensible. He's already contributed to turning Everest into a circus show by choosing to make his living by taking people up there who would otherwise not have the skills or expertise to make the expedition themselves.

Nor do I see much difference between a ladder on the Hilary Step and the miles of fixed ropes that ferry people to the top.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I thought Kenton shot himself in the foot by saying he didn't want Everest to become a Circus ,its been that for a number of years.

In reply to Shani:

Look, the real news here is NOT Kenton Cool and Everest, it is Paltrow and Martin's "Conscious Uncoupling"!

Skip to 2:26'40" to have your mind blown wide open:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03yntry

In reply to Removed User:

Look on the bright side, we could have had John Humphries doing ""science"" reporting...

Chris Martin will be straight down his local McDonalds then.

In reply to Shani:

I shudder to think what her hourly rate is

In reply to Removed User:

Oh I don't know. It's really very nice of Mollie to raise all that money for charity. Surely she spent her own money to pay the US$60,000 fee (peak only, not including kit and airfares) Kenton charges? SURELY she wouldn't have used sponsor's money to pay for her climb? Surely she's not going to benefit herself from all this, by becoming a motivational speaker?

http://www.molliehughes.co.uk/

Excuse me. I have to go and lie down and thump my head on the floor now.

In reply to abseil:




Yes, I noted that this morning when I looked at her website.

In reply to planetmarshall:

He's already contributed to turning Everest into a circus show by choosing to make his living by taking people up there who would otherwise not have the skills or expertise to make the expedition themselves.

I can't make out whether he's being a complete hypocrite, or deliberately ironic?

Either way, I think he should rename his company "Billy Smarts Amazing High Altitude Adventures" and provide all his clients with spinning bow ties, over-sized climbing boots, and buckets of confetti to throw at other climbers when they reach the summit.

In reply to Axel Smeets:

At least her sponsor seem solid: http://uk.infinitypro.com/

Ionic jewellery that emits negative ions, far infrared rays and alphas waves?!

In reply to Shani:


Wasn't it "unconscious". Important distinction.

In reply to abseil:

"Mollie is a unique young lady with a genuine passion for adventure and achievement..."

I have to question the wider level of achievement and adventure outside of any personal level. Being guided in any endeavour by someone of experience must surely remove some level of achievement and adventure that would come with having to rely on one's own resourcefulness in a challenging, alien and hostile environment.

But then I guess having 'Everest' on your CV is more spectacular than a more modest summit/endeavour whereupon an individual is called upon to largely support themselves.

In reply to Removed User:

You can PAY!!! to listen to her irritating upward inflecting voice?

In reply to Removed User:

By the Healing Powers of TOURMALINE!!!!!

In reply to toad:

Click on the "Technology" tab......

In reply to galpinos:

I did - it made me cry a bit.

In reply to galpinos:

Hmm Alpha Waves. Are they like alpha particles? mmmmmmmmPolonium

In reply to Removed User:

Did she say everest was an "amazing place"?

Started to fall asleep as she didn't really say anything. Did she mention Everest was an amazing place?

In reply to Removed User:

This review was may favourite bit;

"Otis, my elderly cat has been hobbling along with arthritis in his back hip area. And as soon as I put the Infinity Pro Ionic Pet Tag on, he turned around and looked at me with a great big smile in his eyes"

In reply to Removed User:

Everest is such an amazing place

In reply to Pepper:

What has she done on Mount Snowdon?

In reply to Shani:

The cafe?

Who cares anyway, Everest is such an amazing place

In reply to adventure_vulture:

Isn't that Pro-Ironic?

Which would be appropriate since they use the Homer Simpson brain scan to support the assertion that tourmaline generates alpha waves.

In reply to Shani:

She certainly has a genuine passion for self-publicity.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


Kenton or Gwyneth? I'm confused now.

In reply to Robert Durran:

This is only what tough guy Bear Grylls did? Daddy paid in 1998 for him to go up Everest with Himalyan Guides Expedition (HGE). He has done pretty well off it!

In reply to Hirosim:
Yeh but he has had to literally eat shit to forward his career...

I am most pleased with the level of scorn being generated on this thread - but surely we need some of the wetter UKC apologists on here now?

In reply to Removed User:

Far be it from me to pour scorn on Mollie who has got to the Summit of Everest, well done.

However, I was once driven around a rally circuit by Colin McRae. He drove very fast, very fast indeed. If he had made an error of judgement we may well have been killed. I made no choice in his gear selection, when he applied the brakes or when he applied the accelerator, I didn't even clip myself into the seat - someone else did that. I have NEVER EVER claimed to be a rally driver after that experience, however amazing it was.

In reply to Jim Walton:

Stop doing yourself down, fella I know several expert skydivers who have all done a tandem in New Zealand.

In reply to Removed User:



Dear God! Do people really buy this stuff? The human race is f*cked isn't it

In reply to Carless:

Sadly, the answer is yes, there's big bucks in it. Mrs Adam is a hand specialist in an Orthopaedic hospital and tells me that some patients buy those magnetic thingies and then feel a lot better because they've spent £30 on something that will cure them. All well and good, however, they also stop taking their medication or other therapies and then their joints degenerate and subsequent surgery is a lot more involved.

She doesn't have a bloody clue does she? "It's like amazing and like people died in queues but like climbers will always want to climb it because it's like amazing, sunset and things"

"It's hard getting past all those hundreds of people in your way, makes it a bigger challenge..."


More seriously,

Kenton Cool: "My fear for Everest is that it becomes a playground for those who want to do stunts [...] we should not bring down Everest into a circus show"

Interviewer: "I'm just wondering why you have any more right to go up a 12th time for example rather than the person who is base-jumping off"

Kenton Cool: "Well, well... we don't, not at all" "Anyone can climb the mountain [...] the mountain is open to everybody"

Oh right Kenton! Not a great spokesman for mountaineering.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Now you must forgive me as i don't live in the Corporate world, but how exactly would her motivation speech go?

Pay £50,000? for Joe Simpson and you have a story about survival against all odds.
Pay £20,000? for Debra Seale and get a story about success when everyone said you'd fail.

What do you get from Ms Hughes?

In reply to Jim Walton:

Gwnydaff Evans took me around a forest stage in a Mk2 Escort, after a course I was attending.
I've never been so scared in my life !!!!

In reply to Removed User:

I can't listen to her for that horrible noise she makes when talking - sounds like she's got a mouthful of porridge.

In reply to adam11:

The irony (nothing to do with ions) is that scary as it may have seemed that was very much safer than being guided up Everest. So back on subject, the commercial expeditions must share guilt for the tragedies when money trumps experience and ability of clients. You might have respect for commercial Everest guide's climbing abilities but never for their part in increasing the queues with the vulnerable.

In reply to Removed User:

Excellent thread, I have not had so much amusement since Drolex got stuck on Valkyrie.

In reply to abseil:
I really have seen it all now - Get dragged up to the summit of a mountain; call yourself a mountaineer; build a website and do some talks to a bunch of kids on how wonderful a shit covered, dead body-laden dump of a mountain is. Winner.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

I'd rather pay for a lecture from Green Boots.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

love it

In reply to Removed User:

I think Russell Brice has been up Everest many more times than Kenton Cool.

Is that his real name, by the way?

In reply to Rigid Raider:


It depends how you mean "been up". Russell Brice has summitted 2x according to his personal profile on his guiding company's website.

http://himalayanexperience.com/about/guides/russell-brice#sthash.67iQmePb.d...

Kenton Cool (it is his real name) has summitted 11 times.

In reply to Rigid Raider:

No one questions Kentons climbing CV I would love it ,but its the dash for cash thing that gets most peoples goats ,and no it isn't like a Guided Climb in the Alps,et al .and yes the Sherpas get jobs out of it .it still cant be right its just going to keep getting bigger ... best not say too much though don't want to upset anyones Human Rights !!!!

In reply to Removed User:


What is your problem ? ok she has an accent that shreds the nerves but what is your objective criticism of what she said ?

The person who comes out less well from it by a long chalk is Kenton Cool. We mustn't allow it to become a circus, but my mates are base jumping off it. Ladders are appalling (but presumably bolts are OK for guides to place)

In reply to Jim Walton:


But on Everest everyone still has to put one foot in front of the other, even if there's someone else egging them on.
Wouldn't a better rally analogy be following Colin McRae and doing what he did? Then you could have said you were a rally driver

In reply to GrahamD:

It's more the fact she was asked to appear on the radio because she is the youngest female to climb it. Not because she's an authority on the mountain, though I suspect she thinks she is now she's done loads of kids parties and stuff.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

Sometimes the views and hatred on here make me a little depressed for the human race, but in this case.... it's hilarious and it's brightened up my day and I think it's entirely justified. Please continue with the bile spewing.

In reply to Removed User:

Why clueless? She had a terrific experience being guided up the highest mountain in the world and is still very excited about it. Obviously because she has a posh voice she is stupid and probably morally defective but what else is it that you object to?

In reply to Removed User:

UKC at its best. (Sarcasm sign here) I don't agree with all that happens on Everest and that whole debate, or the motivational/ corporate world etc. I do however know Molly personally and know her work and know exactly how hard she works and genuine she is. Talk to her yourself and she will say she is not a climber, she is a mountaineer.

This thread is pure unadulterated sniping for armchair egos. There are veiled point and issues there, however it is not a discussion but a multi person rant. Fairly disgusting.

Feel free to ask or reply, if its civil and genuine I will discuss.

Rob

In reply to Postmanpat:

Apologies, you are absolutely right, it's me - I couldn't get passed the accent. Clearly if I had I would have realised what excellent and erudite comment she had on the subject of Everest and mountaineering in general.

In reply to nufkin:


I doubt Molly Whatsit could have followed Kenton up Denali Diamond. Even I could probably follow a top rally driver along a motorway at 50mph.

In reply to Removed User:

She appeared to have a genuine passion about the mountain and her experience on it but I suppose that is something to be sniffed at by hardened mountaineers who know better.

In reply to robjob:


Is that like the difference between a hiker and a walker? Is there a difference?

In reply to Removed User:

I have to say I struggled to see what points Kenton and Molly were trying to make. Surely inviting on 2 guests to debate the commercialisation of Everest, one of whom runs commercial expeditions to Everest and the other goes on commercial expeditions to Everest is a bit like tonight's debate on the EU but with Nick Clegg up against Ken Clarke instead of Nigel Farage.

Has anybody actually emailed the programme to suggest this wasn't the high point of BBC journalism? I think I might and perhaps provide a link to this thread. What do you think?

In reply to Postmanpat:

Yeah unfortunately it is. I am not a fan of what goes on on Everest however just like Snowdon et al it captures peoples imaginations. Dose not mean it is wrong but there are issues there, tearing someone up on a forum seems to be the default reaction. It is a sad reaction when I know some of the leaps people are making are wildly inaccurate, if it was reasoned speculation ok thats one thing, but a lot are akin to childish sniping.

I was interviewed on Radio a few months back and had to work very hard to transmit what I knew (as a "proper climber") to what the audience could understand and relate to. Im sure what I said would dome across as dumbed down or at least a bit off the mark from, some of that is going on here too. The accent thing is interesting, Molly never come across as silver spoon posh in day to day life when she speaks, well spoken yes, outrageously posh no and definitely not handed things on a silver platter.

Rob

In reply to robjob:


At least the people on the forum have stated their opinion. "There are issues there"? What the hell does that mean?

In reply to robjob:
Well now I'm sure Mollie is lovely in real life - but if you are going to get dragged up some mountains by a guide, build a website based upon being a 'mountaineer' and 'charity fundraiser' and flog motivational speaking, then I don't think it is unreasonable you take should some flack from the climbing community do you?

Why on earth she was on Radio 4 'debating' with a guide instead of someone who has actually climbed Everest off their own back is testament to the misunderstanding of mountaineering by the media and the public. It is precisely this miscomprehension that allows the likes of Mollie and her ilk (Bear Ghrylls anyone?) to purvey their nonsense to the adulation of the masses.

Anyone would think you work for a guiding company (tell me that's not how you met Mollie?!) ...

In reply to planetmarshall:

And here is where I exit.

Rob

In reply to Removed User:

Before I go I would say yes I agree with the points you raise there, flak and debate I have no problem with, the demeaning manner that points have been made is what I objected too.

I know molly from working in a shop with her over the xmas time. I have absolutely nothing to do with her guiding.

Regards

Rob

She raised £2,500 for action aid. How much does it cost to get up Everest again?

In reply to Removed User:

I noticed how quickly Kenton contradicted her when she said that people had died because of the queues at the Hilary Step. Not sure what the significance of that is mind.

In reply to robjob:


If you are going to state "there are issues" you may at least have the decency to stay on the thread and argue them.

FWIW I agree that on some posts there is an undercurrent of inverted snobbery or whatever you want to call it because she sounds like an extra from a debutantes ball assuming that is what you were trying to get at. That doesn't make her A Bad Person, however the meat of this thread raises the issue of her and KC's spiel on R4 confirming what many of us already think; that Everest today in a context of mountaineering is a largely vacuous self-promoting exercise which happens to be physically tough and dangerous...

...unless you're flying off the top in a wingsuit or snowboarding back down That is way more interesting than being led up the highest bit of infrastructure in the world. I'm sure it was a fantastic experience for her, I just fail to understand why it merits any mention outside of her own social circle.

In reply to FreshSlate:


If this is true, she deserves all the flak we're giving her and some.

In reply to Removed User:

TBH after reading all of this I was expecting to hear this and be absolutely fuming.

I didn't think it was that bad, yes there are some annoying aspects to the interview (mainly that it is a fairly pointless interview). However, it seems very easy to knock someone who has a posh voice.

Even with today's gear, oxygen, fixed ropes it IMO would take a very strong degree on mental toughness to summit Everest regardless of how rich you are.

In reply to higherclimbingwales:

£2,500 is that all, who paid for her to go up there then the charity, donors or someone else?

18 month for that amount is a poor return of time for charity cash.

Also nice of Kenton to talk about circus activities then remember a 'friend' was involved. Cheers mate!

Being fair to them both it sounds like they prepared for the One Show or Breakfast and not the bloodbath of Today.

Well if there was ever a case for banning guided paying punters on Everest it was the utterly clueless posh idiot 'Molly'.

In reply to Removed User: The posh idiot Molly and the shameless self publicist and strutting peacock Kenton Cool. He doesn't want the mountain to be turned into a circus, but that's what he has been a significant part of helping to achieve. I remember the stomach churning advert he did on the montain for Samsung, the Olympic climb bullshit and all the other stuff. As Andy Kirkpatrick said in a UKC article a few years ago: "If you can step over the boides on the way up, it's a walk. On climbs, the bodies fall to the bottom."

The pair of them are complete embarrasments to the gentlemen's pastime of mountaineering.

In reply to Bobling:


Given that he makes his money from putting people on the mountain, he doesn't want us thinking an overcrowded mountain contributes to people dying.

In reply to FreshSlate:

Kenton charges US$60,000 (36,000 quid) per person for Everest, not including equipment and airfare to Nepal.

In reply to Removed User:

How many people on this thread, slating Mollie, have reached the summit of Everest...or anything higher than 6,500m?

I have a friend who's climbed Everest. She raised a portion of the fees via sponsorship. She didn't ascend via any other than the "standard" route. She was hoping to be the third woman to summit without the use of supplementary oxygen. I am not sure to what extent she was "guided" by any evil Kenton Cool type but I know she works as a guide herself on lower peaks.

She raised nothing for charity and submitted to the use of supplementary oxygen at 7,500m

She is well spoken and seems to be from a fairly privileged background.
She is very honest and said on her blog (upon submitting to taking supplementary oxygen) something like "say what you want about people being 'dragged up Everest' - it is just HARD". She is super-fit, she knows plenty about mountain physiology and general sports nutrition etc.

Is she even worse than Mollie?

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Put her on Radio 4 and to 'justify' her position and see what the response is...

In reply to Postmanpat:

I heard her on World Service and in comparison to the incomparably lovely Mishal Husain, Molly was at best medium-posh.

She actually seemed a perfectly nice person but like every other climber listening I was dying for Mishal to ask her, "so Molly, what's your best lead in Scottish winter?" Of course the answer to that may well be VI,6 - she sounded motivated although I guess the fundraising takes lots of time away from climbing.

In reply to TobyA:


Or Sarah Montague in this instance.

In reply to TobyA:

I don't care what the media asks. What I want is that clients are experienced and capable enough not to be a liability when something goes wrong on a mountain that regularly kills aspirants partly due to overcrowding and incompetence. That's not clients like Mollies fault but it is the guiding companies fault. Of course everyone would make less money that way.

In reply to abseil:


Cheap. I've got about a 20 pound note in my pocket for the donkey sanctuary if you're willing to pay me to go?

In reply to Blue Straggler:


I don't think anyone is denying that putting one foot and one jumar in front of the other all the way up Everest is very hard work and requires lots of determination. What grates is the misrepresentation (and the media are as much to blame as the "climbers") of such feats as having any mountaineering significance. Maybe this doesn't matter, but many people think it does.

In reply to TobyA:

>

I agree. A number of issues of varying substance here:

1. The inherent conflict between the guiding industry and the 'freedom of the mountain' Not sure this is resolvable but it does put Kenton Cool in a difficult position when he's interviewed on national radio. He also sounded very defensive about the queues on the Hillary step. Mollie was there too, but he didn't seem very keen for her to say anything bad for business.

2. The whole sponsored adventure thing. I guess that comes down to how transparent people are when fund-raising about what proportion of the donations end up supporting worthy causes and how much goes into the posh kids' holiday fund. This is very widespread and certainly not specific to this case. Personally, we've refused to let our kids get sucked into this for various school trips.

3. All the personal stuff about Mollie, some of which is rather pathetic inverted snobbery. Anyway, I agree, medium posh at best. I think all you can really criticise Mollie for is being young, enthusiastic and perhaps rather naive. She has breathtaking self-confidence (or a good media advisor) but, to my now rather cynical eyes, not as yet much substance to back it up. Maybe she'll go on to do any number of amazing, inspirational things but she's not there yet. Maybe she'll never impress some people on here but she'll need to learn not to worry about that.

4. The dodgy commercial backing. I guess it's pretty hard to turn down sponsorship, wherever it somes from, and I don't know how intellectually fluffy she is personally, but I would be embarrassed to have my name associated with anything so smelled so strongly of snake oil. But then, for all I know, Mollie uses all these products and believes that she is powered entirely by negative ions and long-wave infrared radiation.

In reply to Robert Durran:
Sorry Robert but that's trivial compared to people getting into serious trouble on the mountain because they are not good enough to try it without a babysitter and because there are so many like that they get in each other's way and massively increase risk. The media was always a circus, what's such a shame is climbing becoming the same up there.

What exactly is stopping the 'reputable' guiding companies applying a much stricter client standard? Some of the most proven climbers out there have had problems over 8000m at times.

In reply to Blue Straggler:


Why do you need to have climbed to above 6500m to hold a worthwhile opinion on the over commercialisation of Everest? What level of football do I need to have played at to comment on the Premier League? The Championship, League 2, The Unibond Premier, my school team?

It's irrelevant. The fact is that Everest has become something that is totally unrepresentative of mountaineering as everyone else practises it and yet it receives more media attention than all other climbing activities combined and so gives the wider public a completely distorted opinion of what mountaineering is about.

When the public perception is that we all use Sherpas to equip the route for, guides to tell what to do, leave the mountains we apparently love festooned in old ropes, oxygen bottles and other assorted crap and that we're all so narrow-mindedly self obsessed with achieving our personal ambition that we're willing to walk past dead and dying people to achieve it then that's a pretty unhealthy view for the public to hold of us. Not unsurprisingly, we are mostly pretty resentful of that and therefore have little sympathy for those involved in the circus.

Now I don't care whether Molly is posh or not, a really nice person or a Satanist. But in mountaineering terms she is a nobody, the climbing equivalent of the person finishing the London marathon in 4.5 hours. It may be a great personal achievement and one which she put a lot of effort into but that she should be given the oxygen of publicity by being given airtime on national radio as if she somehow spoke for the climbing community is farcical.
As long as the media feed us nonsensical stories like this, expect a cynical response from the climbers being misrepresented by it.

In reply to pec:

Well said.

In reply to Removed User:


"Climbing community" ? what a ridiculous concept. What allows someone to be in it ? I'd say Mollie is now as much part of your "climbing community" as any average weekend warrior top roping their way up Windgather

In reply to GrahamD:

I agree with your comments about the nature of the 'climbing community' but that doesn't detract in any way from the validity of the criticisms of her and Kenton Cool.

In reply to Removed User:

I asked a Question couple of weeks ago after seeing some stats for deaths on the Mountain I think it was about 20 to 25 over the last 2 years of the Season,and I did ask how many were left on the Mountain ,and never got an answer ..anyone else know ...

In reply to GrahamD:
yes, she is as much a part of the climbing community as those people, but the reverence that she gets treated with by the media is ridiculously out of proportion with her accomplishments. She plays up to this as much as she can through her website/twitter/radio whatever, and she deserves all the flack she gets on here for that. Personal attacks based on her percieved poshness are daft, but probably a sign of the frustration that this pisspoor reportage creates.

What goes on on Everest and its coverage in our media is a farce and makes me ashamed to call myself a climber.

In reply to GrahamD:

I don't think it's a ridiculous concept. I'm not sure I have a definition but maybe one of the reasons we have the BMC is to put forward a spokesperson to represent 'us' for interviews like this.

That said, I'm not entirely sure what the point of the piece on yesterday's programme was intended to be.

In reply to Offwidth:


Sorry, yes, I was addressing the particular point about the perceived achievement of being guided up Everest.

There are 3 issues:

1) Misrepresentation of achievement/mountaineering significance.
2) The danger of inexperienced clients getting into trouble on an overcrowded mountain.
3) The trashing of Everest environmentally and as a challenge for "proper" mountaineers.

In reply to Robert Durran:
I'd move 1 to the bottom and add mulitple deaths and serious injuries to the main point as all climbing is dangerous but Everest is at times carnage and nothing significant seems to be being done to change that. Its amazing some people will get worked up by things like the failure to use locking crabs on belays yet at tte same time given bad luck and conditions death is more likely than not up there.

In reply to FreshSlate:

OK! I'll smash my Peppa Pig Piggybank - let's see - watch this space...

In reply to GrahamD:

I'm not saying she's isn't part of the 'climbing community' - I'm saying she deserves the flak she's getting from the 'climbing community' regardless or whether or not she herself is part of it.

In reply to Offwidth:
Is it really "carnage"? In comparison to the numbers of people going and trying? Damo just posted a link to proposed laws in Nepal mandating the use of local guides on 7 and 8 000 metre peaks. I think that the type of thing that will "get done".

I'm not quite sure why it's not just up to Kenton or the other guides to decide who he is willing to guide up the mountain. If people want to spend all that money there and accept some level of risk, it's their decision is it not?

BTW
One of the take aways from the interview with her I heard was how at least the year she was there, there were so few potential summit days. It seems like the companies that guide there now have such a machine in place, with amazing weather forecasting in particular, 'conditions' are controlled for.

In reply to Offwidth:


I wasn't putting them in any specific order.

In reply to Dave Garnett:






+1 Well said.

Great to see so many posts here not swallowing this crap.

In case anyone thinks this only matters for Everest and doesn't affect any other climbers, see my post over on Expedition & Alpine about proposed regs to ban unguided climbing on 7000ers.

In reply to pec:

Very well put.

In reply to TobyA:
Yes when the weather turns unexpectedly on an overcrowded high mountain it is sometimes carnage: where else do you see so frequent repeat multiple deaths in climbing? The lost fingers and toes dont even get a look in these days. Risk acceptance is OK as long as its informed but I think the guiding companies are nothing like as clear as they should be on the real risk which matters if the clients lack experience, also that risk is very much higher above 8000m. Add up the deaths over the decades and count those who have summited. Risk is dropping but must still be in the low hundreds to 1 range for those who summit (what they pay for afterall). Good as forecasts are these days people on the mountain make very odd judgements at altitude and often the risk to well run groups relates to the uncontrollable behaviour of less well run groups.

Do you thing the situation in Nepal would be allowed as a commercial arrrangement for people climbing in the UK, Europe or US?

In reply to Damo:



Given that it's something we've been going on about since 2006 and especially in this one from 2007

http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=227941&v=1#x3367360

In reply to Damo:

The deaths are listed here. Still several dead on the same day in recent years.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_died_climbing_Mount_Evere...

In reply to Removed User:

Yes its BS, yes it a circus, but why does it bother us ?

Is it likely to lead to permits being required to climb Snowdon, a ladder up Broad Stand or fixed ropes on the Ben ?

In reply to Chris the Tall:


Because the world's highest and most iconic mountain has been effectively lost to mountaineering.

In reply to Chris the Tall:


Because allowing it, apologising for it and encouraging it leads to this:
http://www.montagna.tv/cms/58284/english-no-climbing-on-everest-sans-local-...

In reply to Offwidth:


Ski touring and avalanches sadly, although I have no idea how comparable in participation rates to accidents.

I would be interested to see actual research but it strikes me Everest isn't as dangerous as you're making it sound. Compare it to summits vs fatalities on K2, and that seems to be much more a 'mountaineers' mountain'.

In reply to Robert Durran:

And the bar has been set rather low. If you've got the money and a reasonable degree of fitness then the gig is yours. That this should be then be marketed as some demonstration of 'having a passion for adventure and achievement' as laughable.

I'd say more adventure could be found by an extended solo night-nav across the Kinder plateau mid Winter (with snow and whiteout conditions), and given the extra demands this would make on specific skills, experience and determination etc... I would consider this a not dissimilar level of achievement.

I think that is why Ellen MacArthur's sailing achievements stick in the mind. Truly adventurous and highly inspirational.

In reply to Damo:

The world Cup in Qatar could be seriously undermined if more Nepalese can find employment at home

Sorry, I do accept understand all the "it's gone too commercial" arguments, but at the same time a country as poor as Nepal has as much right to exploit its geography/natural resources as any other country. If rich westerners want to go there and get fleeced then more fool them. Likewise the people who would pay to see a motivational speech by one of them.

We can rant about it not "real mountaineering" as much as we like, just as we can rant about Bear Grylls, but Joe Public is far more likely to be interested in "Molly" than some beardie climbing a new route. Which means that, very often, the latter will end up financing his trips by guiding the former.

In reply to Chris the Tall:


I think that that is the crux here - and something most of us recognise; that Mollie's 'achievement' in many ways is shallow as a function of its commercially driven element.

That commercial element necessitates it being oversold in terms of how adventurous it actually is and how much of an achievement it is.

Well done to Mollie - but she's jumped a low bar. Hope that doesn't take away from the joy she had of reaching the summit of Everest, but plenty of other adventurers have achieved way more and are way less exposed.

Don't expect being guided up Everest to impress those with even modest moutaineering/climbing/adventuring experience.

In reply to TobyA:

Look again at the deaths on the main two routes up everest on wikipedia and tell me any ski tour routes with 1/10th of those casualty levels. Its obvious we have to accept informed risk in climbing but my view on Everest is that adventure tourists who are not informed and experienced mountaineers are dying and practices have developed that significantly increase risk through overcrowding and lack of regulation.

In reply to Robert Durran:


The person that likened it to be being a passenger in Colin MacRae's car seemed to be.



In fairness I have not listened to yesterday's broadcast and don't really know what "Joe Public" thinks of Mollie. I remember when she summitted and took loads of flak on here for it.

In reply to pec:

I agree with your points. My 6500m comment was a throwaway - an ill-thought-out lead-in to the description of what my friend has done, which was a roundabout way of saying "guided or not, it's still an achievement", which I think is a totally separate issue to the "milking it for publicity".

As per my previous post just now, I am not aware of what level Mollie is "misrepresenting" to.

Thanks

In reply to Chris the Tall:



I don't disagree with any of that.

What does get me, is for years we've been listening to those defending the Everest show as it is and saying it doesn't matter, it doesn't affect anyone else*, they're free to do what they want, it's their choice and their's alone, there's other mountains to climb, if you don't like it don't go, etc etc. As I always argued, the Everest effect has spread to infect other climbing ventures and venues, so now others, like me, are negatively impacted even if we never set foot anywhere near Everest. They have acted as if there were no broader consequences - and that has been shown to be a lie.



*Greg Child called it 'The Outhouse Effect'. It keeps all the sh!t in one place.

In reply to Removed User:

Sorry, but I got three and a half minutes in and had to stop. She had mouth clag....oh god I hate mouth clag! Have a fekin drink woman!!!

In reply to pec:

I guess in essence I am asking "what has Mollie in particular done, that is so evil and damaging that it deserves a huge character assassination?"

In reply to Robert Durran:

C'mon Robert that's saying Ben Nevis has been lost as there is a big fook off path up the easy side. Adventure is where you want it to be, use your imagination.

To Joe Public Everest IS mountaineering, generally they are only interested in two things; Everest and how much it cost to helicopter us off when we are really stupid going out in inclement weather putting other peoples lives at risk.....

Generally people don't get us, we live with it. Getting excited about Mollie and her ilk is generally quite churlish, leave them too it, let's face it they are never going to get in our way on the hill.

In reply to Shani:


Completely agree with all of that. One of the reasons we shouldn't be too hard on Mollie is that many of the people advising her will have encouraged her to think she's achieved something extraordinary, and not because they care about her self-esteem.

In reply to Removed User:



Where you want it be, so long as it's no longer on the high mountains of Nepal.

I'd only be too happy to leave Everest 'climbers' alone to their games, if they'd be so good as to leave me to mine. But now they're not. Everest is not an island.

http://www.montagna.tv/cms/58284/english-no-climbing-on-everest-sans-local-...

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Eh? She's bloody 23 years old, 21 when she climbed Everest! She's no child, she doesn't need (I want to say mollycoddling here, but…) protecting.

The UK has people younger than that going off and getting shot up in Afghanistan, facing real danger, real risk and not pretending to be death-defying heroes worthy of paying to hear all about it.

I would agree that she has been badly advised in terms of speaking in public though. If that R4 performance is anything to go by she completely lacks any useful insight, perspective or depth to her account of her 'climb'. Just trite banalities and repetitive and evasive empty noise.

In reply to Removed User:


No, because unlike Everest, Ben Nevis truly is open to everyone. And if you want to open up a new climb on the North Face, the maintainers of the pony track will not hurl rocks at you from the top.

In reply to Offwidth:

Deaths on Everest are actually recorded neatly in one place, but it still doesn't mean much if we don't have that as a proportion of participation. I'm sure Mont Blanc or even Ben Nevis would provide a list of fatalities but then I would expect the number of people on those hills to be many times higher. I guess there can't be many people who go to try Everest without an extensive knowledge of the epics and tragedies that have happened before them.

Ski touring just brings people into avalanche terrain which is why it's dangerous. This season has been particularly bad in Europe and North America though it seems. But again participation is presumably relatively high.

In reply to TobyA:

I think you might be being a bit optimistic. I suspect there are quite a lot of people who go to Everest without knowing very much, if anything, about much of the history - even recent history. I'm sure there are plenty of people heading to Everest this spring who don't have any idea who Rob Hall and Scott Fischer were, for example. I could be wrong of course, and of course there are perfectly honourable and decent guides, but much of the current Everest experience seems pretty tawdry and shabby.

In reply to tony:

I don't disagree about the tawdry aspects, but can you make it as a motivational speaker if you don't continually reference "the death zone" and the like? I presumed half the allure of Everest to people who aren't really climbers is the air of danger and extreme challenge the mountain has for the media (like this example) and the public at large.

In reply to TobyA:

Slightly off topic but in terms of avalanche deaths in France, this season has not been any worse than normal. Despite a fair number of early fatalities, the total number for this winter is below average (I believe) and the number of deaths after March is ususally low (though that's no guarantee).

It's slightly higher in Switzerland.

In reply to TobyA:

You're an intelligent man so why this continued questioning? You must know full well ski tours on a per participiation basis are nothing like as risky as being guided above 8000m in a queue on Everest. Its also pretty obvious from research that the average person is pretty shit about evaluating real risks, even given the stats, and I strongly suspect the Mollies of this world are more blithly hopeful than fully informed, prepared and brave.

In reply to galpinos:

Fair enough, perhaps yes it was the number of multi-fatality incidences earlier in the winter. A Finnish skier got killed in Lofoten a couple of days ago and there have been a number of fatalities in Troms recently. I'm going to Senja in a few weeks so it has been on my mind.

In reply to Offwidth:


I expect that is the case but I don't actually know because I haven't seen any attempt to come up with the stats, and I know that deaths on Everest get widely reported for various structural reasons - fitting into a pre-existing narrative, extensive 'reporting' infrastructure at BC every season etc etc.


Well, we know how many people die on Everest, so why wouldn't anyone who was going to spend 20 thousand quid or whatever it is on having a go themselves? Are you suggesting the guiding companies are deliberately misinforming their clients over the level of risk they face?

In reply to TobyA:

Look for yourself to see what they say:

http://www.dream-guides.com/en/courses/climb/climb-everest/

In reply to Removed User:
What a poor radio interview, it sounded like one big public relations exercise, from the 6 minutes I heard.

I read a magazine article last year at Sherpa hut near base camp that proposed they closed Everest from the Nepalise side for a whole host of reasons. Perhaps it is indeed time to close down the circus.

In reply to Offwidth:

Who is it for?
To be prepared for climbing Everest, you will need a good grounding in mountaineering (typically climbing to alpine ‘AD’) and have at least climbed to 6000m. You should also have sufficient experience to understand the nature and risks involved in such an undertaking. Climbing an 8000m peak such as Manaslu (8156m) or Cho Oyu (8201m) before going to Everest is the ideal preparation, giving you the experience and confidence in your ability to operate at extreme altitude. You will need strong determination and dedication, as well as good physical fitness and health to reach the summit.

Don't you think people who fit that criteria might have a reasonably good appreciation of the risks involved? It's interesting that they note specifically that they only go from the south as the northern route is too difficult/dangerous.

In reply to TobyA:

Damn. Fifteen metres short.

In reply to Chris the Tall:


To paraphrase what I said in my earlier post (scroll up and read it), Everest gets all the media attention so the public think what goes on there is representative of all mountaineering. Since what goes on there represents the very worst of it, we all get tarnished.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

You'll note in my post I wasn't really critical of her personally, I don't care if she's posh or not, indeed, that never even ocurred to me when I was listening and anyway, plenty of great climbers have been posh.
What bothers me is what Everest has become, the media obsession with Everest to the almost total exclusion of any other mountains, the shockingly bad journalism when reporting climbing and the misrepresentation of what the actual achievent of climbing Everest is.

People like Mollie are portrayed as great mountaineers who have achieved something remarkable and climbing Everest is seen to be the pinnacle of mountaineering achievement which is laughably untrue. However physically demanding it is, in mountaineering terms its a complete non event.

Climbers will direct their annoyance somewhere and when an Everest summiteer pops up on the national news portrayed as having achieved something more than fulfilling their personal ambition (which is all it actually is) its not surprising they get some flak.

If I ran a marathon in 4.5 hours and was interviewed on TV about my great athletic achievement and started pontificating about the future direction of athletics don't you think thousands of proper club runners doing really respectable but non newsworthy sub 3 hour marathons would get a bit riled by it?

In reply to pec:

Sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you of criticising Mollie - quite the opposite (as I said, I agree with your points). My question in that post was not directed at you personally.

Is she being portrayed as a top mountaineer? And failing to downplay this?

Funnily enough I think a lot of "the media" know that (just as an example) K2 is a harder summit but a) obviously Everest is Everest, it's the highest, blah blah, and possibly more relevantly, b) K2 is a 'darker' story to tell, and thus harder to sell as copy.

In reply to pec:


So the problem with the piece was not Mollie it was that that BBC chose the guy running commercial expeditions and one of his clients to discuss the subject. This as obviously not going to produce a balanced discussion.

Mollie, whilst not being especially insightful, did not say anything particularly wrong or silly. Cool, on the other hand, sounded to me like a self serving hypocrite. What was required was an articulate independent Himalayan mountaineer in place of Mollie to give the opposing view.

In reply to Postmanpat:

Mollie should have had the humility to know that she was a shit spokesperson then and not done it. Unless of course she is just a sickening self publicist who had a holiday on the back of milking people for charity...

In reply to JayPee630:

The only person who comes out of that terrible piece of journalism really badly is Kenton Cool. Mollie is just a typical paying punter.

In reply to JayPee630:


Terse - but you've purdy much nailed it. She had little to offer to the interview and everything to gain for an act that was clearly a personal triumph (and only that).

Just to add that up until the 1970s, her achievement would have been 'news'. But in 2014, climbing Everest is a glorified gap year event and becoming a motivational speaker (or some such) on the back of it smacks of 'a desire to be known, rather than a desire to do something worthy of being known of'.

In reply to JayPee630:

I can't get my head around the narcissism required to do something not especially remarkable (climbing Everest in a pretty punterish manner with a guide) and then attempt to sell yourself as someone whose opinions should be listened to. Although on balance it's better that 11 year old girls look up to her than one of the cast of TOWIE or Geordie Shores.

In reply to Submit to Gravity:

Is it *really* better? I'd say they're all much of a muchness as Shani hinted at - all selling themselves in a dishonest and tawdry way desperate for an iota of ill-deserved fame.

In reply to JayPee630:

How is what she is doing dishonest ? Anyone can see and read what she has achieved and draw their own conclusions. If they think its noteworthy enough to engage them for 'motivational' speaking its their choice.

In reply to JayPee630:

Well, if my daughter said she wanted to be a mountaineer after listening to Molly, I would be happier than if she said she wanted to be an airhead bimbo celebrity after watching TOWIE.

I'd be happier still if she said she wanted to be a supercool climber like her ol' man, but that ain't gonna happen!

In reply to Shani:

She had her own observations to offer the interview (when KC wasn't cutting in). You can draw your own conclusions from that. She wasn't supposed to be the 'expert' - KC was supposed to be the one with the insite.

In reply to GrahamD:

I'd say she raised money being less-than-honest about what amounts were going where. She's being dishonest by having sponsorship that is obviously quackery which exploits peoples health concerns, and I'd say she was being dishonest in being on the show and pretending she had anything useful to contribute to the debate.

And yeah fair point about the daughter wanting to be a mountaineer rather than a celebrity idiot Submit to Gravity, but I think they're all part of the same narcissistic culture where people are desperate to be famous for something.

In reply to Removed User:

I can't see the point of doing Everest at all. It is more of an endurance/fitness slog and is expensive. If I had the endurance/fitness and money to do Everest, I simply wouldn't do it. I would use those things to climb many other enjoyable routes.

In reply to GrahamD:


I thought the interview was meant to be about the 'circus that Everest has become', but insight was unlikely to come from two participants in that circus (albeit from different ends of the big top).

It is great that Mollie has got into mountaineering but her 'celebrity' is just as vacuous as that of a TOWIE c-lister.

I'd much rather hear from a 22 y.o. mountaineer who had developed skills such that she could 'fly solo' in extreme conditions (regardless of whether that person had climbed Everest or not). That is real motivation and adventuring - 'I learned these skills and have tested myself in the wild'. A guided trophy ascent like Everest is one-dimensional in comparison.

I think that is why someone like Ellen MacArthur appeals to us all - regardless of age or gender - or even sport. But Mollie's audience is the ignorant (ie non-mountaineers).

In reply to Shani:
Exactly. I think someone who's overcome loads of obstacles and just led their first VD at Stangage could probably give a better opinion of the circus that Everest and similar things have become in relation to climbing and mountaineering and what it can be than either of those two did.

And Cool and that Samsung advert was a pretty new low point in horrible events in this race to the bottom.

In reply to JayPee630:


Oh do get over yourself! Seriously, a VDiff punter has a useful opinion on the Everest circus? There isn't half a lot of self-serving guff going on here - we mere VDiff punters are the rightful carriers of the mountaineering mantle, and the likes of Kenton Cool merely flotsam and jetsam.

KC's got a lot to answer for, and I reckon the charge of hypocrite is laid fairly and squarely at his door, but don't try to make out that doing a route at Stanage makes anyone an authority on high-altitude mountaineering.

In reply to tony:
Why not? Someone that's been climbing 20 years and pottering about the UK quietly doing classics and is into climbing for the exact opposite reasons to the commercial circus lot are might have a far more interesting and balanced view than Molly who is part of it.

We're not talking about someone being 'an authority on high altitude mountaineering' but someone who has a contrary and critical view on the circus it often is.

In reply to JayPee630:


I might agree with that, but you originally said "just led their first VD at Stangage".

In reply to tony:
Ok, guilty as charged! Although she was fucking annoying!

In reply to Shani:

I'd have liked to hear a radio interview of that guy who climbed the white spider. His blog link was posted on here recently. THAT, was real mountaineering.

In reply to Blizzard:

Are you thinking of this: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=580120

In reply to Removed User:

As someone who has been on one or two "commercial" trips (NOTE: NOT Everest) to high mountains I've always been amazed by:
1) The absolute necessity of sponsorship &
2) The need to impart your total B*LLSH*T to everyone else.

I always worked on the basis that if I couldn't afford it then tough I didn't go. I also worked on the basis that it was my trip & if my mountaineering club wanted to see a few slides then fine. It wasn't a means of "earning" a few pounds from some clueless punters.

If all & sundry want to go to Everest & waste their money then fine. Just don't bore me with your walk. It's a trip for every clown with too much money.

In reply to Bootsy:


Nice link - but what has he done on Mount Snowdon?

In reply to JayPee630:


Oh please. On that basis the Today show would last about 30 minutes each day. She's eating a crust like the rest of the talking heads in the media.

In reply to Postmanpat:
I'm interested why the only two here defending (besides the guide) are right wing apologists i.e. You and GrahamD. Is it the posh statement that got your back up?

In reply to Bootsy:

Aye, thats the guy.

In reply to Postmanpat:


Yes and no, the problem was the BBC chose 2 people essentially from the same side of the argument but Mollie had nothing much worthwhile to say


Absolutely, but that would have required some effort on the part of the BBC.

In reply to Removed User:

But what has she done on Grit??

In reply to Removed User:

most enjoyable thread, almost as good as the one about braying nigels ... is mollie a braying nigella by any chance?

In reply to Removed User:


Probably. It reflects a rather nasty sort of half witted prejudice posing as rational judgement.

Personally I'm neither right wing nor an apologist. I believe that market forces embedded in liberal democracy are the best way yet devised to structure society for the benefit of all. No apology for that.

In reply to Postmanpat:

I'm sure your just a sweet liberal minded centrist really.

In reply to JayPee630:


And you base that on what exactly? Get over yourself, man!

In reply to Offwidth:


Certainly sweet and liberal minded. "Centrist"? Depends where you're standing I suppose….
But certainly not a classist bigot.

In reply to Postmanpat:

I prefer to think of it as rational judgement seasoned lightly with some well-informed prejudice myself.

Anyway, market forces appear to be at work on this thread - no one's buying...

In reply to TobyA:
Missed your reply. My point was the risk is heavily understated on those pages.

On the other stuff what odds on Mollie being an AD leader, being responsible for herself over 6000m or having a previous 8000er under her belt anyone? I'd love to be wrong as all these big name explorers are pushing her as genuinely adventurous and they might look silly.

In reply to Removed User:

Right wing ? moi ? WTF are you on about ?

In reply to Removed User:

I take my hat off to Molly's commercial inventiveness, go on three trips and become a motivational speaker on Mountaineering - I wonder how many of us are jealous that we haven't done that ourselves - in fact I might just try it too, though I am a bit late getting started at 52...

I think it was Kenton that came over really poorly, he certainly seemed on the back foot and hadn't worked out the point he wanted to make... did he think there should be regulation to stop Everest becoming (more of) a circus? I think Russell Bryce is concerned about a lot of the cowboy outfits operating on Everest and using his fixed ropes? With queues of 200 hundred at the Hilary Step surely something needs to be done?

Err actually maybe I wont do Everest and think of another 8KM peak with less queuing risk.

Cheers,

S

In reply to Removed User:

Jeez, just listened to this, talk about cringeworthy.

It's bloody unfair for people to whom climbing is their life that Everest is so financially exclusive.