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Ive been roped in to being moral support for a friend whos training for the ultra du mont blanc and needs to do a 100 miler to qualify.
Its the Apocalypse in May and is 100 miles on tracks/trails fairly flat (I hope). Ive read training guides in running mags about how much milage I should be doing each week and thats going ok.
However I would like some advice from anyone who has done something like this - any general training tips, kit advice, food / drink advice etc.
ta.
Its the Apocalypse in May and is 100 miles on tracks/trails fairly flat (I hope). Ive read training guides in running mags about how much milage I should be doing each week and thats going ok.
However I would like some advice from anyone who has done something like this - any general training tips, kit advice, food / drink advice etc.
ta.
In reply to ow arm:
Iain Ridgeway is your man on this one, though I suspect there are other people on here who have done the UTMB etc.
Iain Ridgeway is your man on this one, though I suspect there are other people on here who have done the UTMB etc.
Having failed at 127 miles of 145 on an ultra my top tip would be to, if the weather gets really grim, change into full waterproofs and boots and put in a shift of marching quickly. I got unbelievably cold and umpteen hours of rain that was the killer for me. In terms of training, I ran to work (10miles) a lot - if I was doing it again I would do more speed work and more long runs and less 'pointless' mileage. I peaked at 70mpw and reckon doing the above I would have been better with less of higher quality. I also tried to eat normal food (bacon sandwiches etc) which I think was a good plan.
In reply to Nick Harvey:
Good going anyway 127/145m is still awsom.
Ive read a few blogs that agree with fewer good quality / long sessions.
Also bacon sandwich sounds ace, something to look foreward to.
any other suggestions on kit other than waterproofs?
edit - also who is Iain Ridgeway? has he got a different username on here?
Good going anyway 127/145m is still awsom.
Ive read a few blogs that agree with fewer good quality / long sessions.
Also bacon sandwich sounds ace, something to look foreward to.
any other suggestions on kit other than waterproofs?
edit - also who is Iain Ridgeway? has he got a different username on here?
Post edited at 16:33
Don't worry, he'll be along shortly. IanRUK. He's an englishman who runs for wales and lives in Germany? somethinglike that anyway.
Get googling on blisters. I used tincture of benzoine and then kenesio tape - worked very well - my feet were trashed at halfway, put on tape and they mostly recovered. Then a few days later most of the skin fell off, but don't let that worry you.
Another tip - by all means sit down (get crew to take a chair) but try to avoid actually getting in a car. I had to as it was tipping down and getting out almost sent me literally into shock at one point.
Ah, such fun.
Get googling on blisters. I used tincture of benzoine and then kenesio tape - worked very well - my feet were trashed at halfway, put on tape and they mostly recovered. Then a few days later most of the skin fell off, but don't let that worry you.
Another tip - by all means sit down (get crew to take a chair) but try to avoid actually getting in a car. I had to as it was tipping down and getting out almost sent me literally into shock at one point.
Ah, such fun.
In reply to Nick Harvey:
ha ha cheers, oh yes ofcourse Ive read Ians stuff.
So in between bacon sandwiches, what 'foods' or snacks would anyone suggest - ive no problem eating gels, they are just expensive, i like flapjacks, and am going to try marzipan and raisin balls this week.
ha ha cheers, oh yes ofcourse Ive read Ians stuff.
So in between bacon sandwiches, what 'foods' or snacks would anyone suggest - ive no problem eating gels, they are just expensive, i like flapjacks, and am going to try marzipan and raisin balls this week.
In reply to ow arm:
Shoes a size or so too big are great from 70ish miles when your feet are wrecking.
good luck.
Sarah
Shoes a size or so too big are great from 70ish miles when your feet are wrecking.
good luck.
Sarah
In reply to ow arm:
The problem with gels is that after 8 hours or so you get sick of them and crave savoury stuff.
In fact anything you 'think' you like to eat gets turned on its head - so try doing some intermediate long runs (12-14 hours) before the main event and you'll get an idea of the kind of stuff you will crave when things get tough - the key is to experiment as nobody is exactly the same.
Cold pizza slices are a recommendation I've heard a lot and it works for me although I can't manage the crusts. Also boiled potatoes rolled in salt can be wrapped in foil and stashed in your pack easily. I also like peanut butter and jam sandwiches cut into little squares.
The key is just eat whatever you can stomach so long as you keep eating - there's no point having energy packed food if you can't get it down.
Good luck!
> ha ha cheers, oh yes ofcourse Ive read Ians stuff.
> So in between bacon sandwiches, what 'foods' or snacks would anyone suggest - ive no problem eating gels, they are just expensive, i like flapjacks, and am going to try marzipan and raisin balls this week.
The problem with gels is that after 8 hours or so you get sick of them and crave savoury stuff.
In fact anything you 'think' you like to eat gets turned on its head - so try doing some intermediate long runs (12-14 hours) before the main event and you'll get an idea of the kind of stuff you will crave when things get tough - the key is to experiment as nobody is exactly the same.
Cold pizza slices are a recommendation I've heard a lot and it works for me although I can't manage the crusts. Also boiled potatoes rolled in salt can be wrapped in foil and stashed in your pack easily. I also like peanut butter and jam sandwiches cut into little squares.
The key is just eat whatever you can stomach so long as you keep eating - there's no point having energy packed food if you can't get it down.
Good luck!
Post edited at 19:00
In reply to ow arm:
You haven't said what your background and fitness/endurance levels are currently? It's a little difficult to give advice without knowing where your base levels are.
Have you a strong background in distance running?
You haven't said what your background and fitness/endurance levels are currently? It's a little difficult to give advice without knowing where your base levels are.
Have you a strong background in distance running?
In reply to ow arm:
Time on feet - are you used to even just standing up for that long? Most people vastly underestimate how short the periods of standing are in their lives.
I didn't do much mileage for my 69 miler but did put in the hours doing various interval training and had long days out in the mountains. I think a 22hr day was the longest but never sat down once in that period.
Iain advised me to wear twin skin hilly socks and liberally smear vaseline on my feet. I took that literally and put half a jar on each foot, resulting in one small blister during the race despite running through flooded fields and torrential rain. Changed socks after 30 something miles and repeated the vaseline thing.
Time on feet - are you used to even just standing up for that long? Most people vastly underestimate how short the periods of standing are in their lives.
I didn't do much mileage for my 69 miler but did put in the hours doing various interval training and had long days out in the mountains. I think a 22hr day was the longest but never sat down once in that period.
Iain advised me to wear twin skin hilly socks and liberally smear vaseline on my feet. I took that literally and put half a jar on each foot, resulting in one small blister during the race despite running through flooded fields and torrential rain. Changed socks after 30 something miles and repeated the vaseline thing.
In reply to ow arm:
ive done the welsh 3000s (14 peaks) as a walk 4 times and as a run once, so yes ive been on my feet for up to 20h. I dont suffer from blisters and id rather a blister than the vaseline thing!
distance wise my 14 peaks route is the longest ive done which is 28 miles and nearly 4000m ascent.
im currently following a standard 100 ultra training plan from runners world.
The run is The Apocalypse 100.
i dont intend to be fast just to complete, example of my slowness - 20 miles trail 3 hours
ive done the welsh 3000s (14 peaks) as a walk 4 times and as a run once, so yes ive been on my feet for up to 20h. I dont suffer from blisters and id rather a blister than the vaseline thing!
distance wise my 14 peaks route is the longest ive done which is 28 miles and nearly 4000m ascent.
im currently following a standard 100 ultra training plan from runners world.
The run is The Apocalypse 100.
i dont intend to be fast just to complete, example of my slowness - 20 miles trail 3 hours
Post edited at 10:00
In reply to ow arm:
try the Bob Graham Round for preparation- that will give you some perspective- a steady 3mph..
try the Bob Graham Round for preparation- that will give you some perspective- a steady 3mph..
In reply to ow arm:
I've done one 100 (5 years ago) and have entered the ldwa 100 in S Wales again for end of May, think there's about 15k foot ascent. I did the first one (Sussex/Hants area over the downs and around about) on little training, maybe 25 miles/week and did a single 50 mile walk with my wife the month before.
On the day just got my head down and kept going - did 26 hours. Eat anything put in front of you that you can manage to eat, be disciplined on drinking regularly, take 'profen if you need them. Much of it is mental, ride on through the lows and you'll be fine.
I've done one 100 (5 years ago) and have entered the ldwa 100 in S Wales again for end of May, think there's about 15k foot ascent. I did the first one (Sussex/Hants area over the downs and around about) on little training, maybe 25 miles/week and did a single 50 mile walk with my wife the month before.
On the day just got my head down and kept going - did 26 hours. Eat anything put in front of you that you can manage to eat, be disciplined on drinking regularly, take 'profen if you need them. Much of it is mental, ride on through the lows and you'll be fine.
In reply to ow arm:
Not so much advice as a few observations or things to think about -
I'm a middle of the pack runner with no particular talent, have finished UTLD 50, Old County Tops, UTLD 100 and done a lot of 30-50 mile days so probably living in a world similar to yours
As with all sports training there are some general rules, many of them contradictory and different things work for different people. I know two very successful (internationally) endurance athletes one of whom concentrates entirely on quality with lots of gym work and almost no long training runs and the other does traditional mega miles and 30 hours of training a week.
To me, if you're struggling getting the miles in I would go for really hard work in the gym with a few recovery runs for miles and then some infrequent really long days out and at least a couple of nights out - these are essential
Working out which shoes and other kit work for you is really important and the apparent vast amount of time you have to do this in disappears very quickly. Don't underestimate the catastrophe of getting too cold. Think carefully about opportunities for sock changes and foot care en route. Vaseline is your friend. If there is a spot that always goes try protective kinesio tape on it on long training runs
Try every possible nutrition option - you want to be able to eat their food
rather than carry it but you need to know what you can and can't deal with. I get on great with gels but regard them as backup because I have to carry them myself - again, try the brands
Stuart Mills and Andy Mouncey have superb websites with lots of good advice and inspiration. I take it you have the "bible" Relentless Forward Progress"?
Always concentrate on nothing bigger than getting to the next checkpoint well fed and watered and in decent nick
I think in the end the single most important thing is simply how much you want to finish, not to fail - manipulate your own psychology and find that inner voice that won't let you stop
Good luck, P
Not so much advice as a few observations or things to think about -
I'm a middle of the pack runner with no particular talent, have finished UTLD 50, Old County Tops, UTLD 100 and done a lot of 30-50 mile days so probably living in a world similar to yours
As with all sports training there are some general rules, many of them contradictory and different things work for different people. I know two very successful (internationally) endurance athletes one of whom concentrates entirely on quality with lots of gym work and almost no long training runs and the other does traditional mega miles and 30 hours of training a week.
To me, if you're struggling getting the miles in I would go for really hard work in the gym with a few recovery runs for miles and then some infrequent really long days out and at least a couple of nights out - these are essential
Working out which shoes and other kit work for you is really important and the apparent vast amount of time you have to do this in disappears very quickly. Don't underestimate the catastrophe of getting too cold. Think carefully about opportunities for sock changes and foot care en route. Vaseline is your friend. If there is a spot that always goes try protective kinesio tape on it on long training runs
Try every possible nutrition option - you want to be able to eat their food
rather than carry it but you need to know what you can and can't deal with. I get on great with gels but regard them as backup because I have to carry them myself - again, try the brands
Stuart Mills and Andy Mouncey have superb websites with lots of good advice and inspiration. I take it you have the "bible" Relentless Forward Progress"?
Always concentrate on nothing bigger than getting to the next checkpoint well fed and watered and in decent nick
I think in the end the single most important thing is simply how much you want to finish, not to fail - manipulate your own psychology and find that inner voice that won't let you stop
Good luck, P
In reply to ow arm:
What's your experience? Current training load? I'd certainly throw in some trail marathons/50ks very soon as training runs and to give experience..
Robbie Britton does some nice articles on run247... I really like his diet article 'everyone's an expert'.. Some get so preachy over what works but it just varies so much between people and even, annoyingly, run to run.. Robbie's a class runner but has also gone from being a novice to an international and a good shorter distance runner, so speaks from good recent experience..
Try everything in training, simple sugars/gels are often not enough for big days out, but depends on your target time, big 100s like the utmb are big walks for most of the field, I think I was around 50th just sub 30 so was still less than 3.5 mph.. So on them you can eat more complex, normal food.
For me deffo larger trainers but I use that for all now, I run in 10.5-11 and am normally 10 and found I suffer much less toe trauma.
What's your experience? Current training load? I'd certainly throw in some trail marathons/50ks very soon as training runs and to give experience..
Robbie Britton does some nice articles on run247... I really like his diet article 'everyone's an expert'.. Some get so preachy over what works but it just varies so much between people and even, annoyingly, run to run.. Robbie's a class runner but has also gone from being a novice to an international and a good shorter distance runner, so speaks from good recent experience..
Try everything in training, simple sugars/gels are often not enough for big days out, but depends on your target time, big 100s like the utmb are big walks for most of the field, I think I was around 50th just sub 30 so was still less than 3.5 mph.. So on them you can eat more complex, normal food.
For me deffo larger trainers but I use that for all now, I run in 10.5-11 and am normally 10 and found I suffer much less toe trauma.
In reply to ow arm:
Jeez I just realised your OP says the race is in may I had read it as UTMB ie late August
You ARE gonna die
I'm sure you'll be fine - injury avoidance is really important at this stage with the temptation to overdo mileage without enough base. Getting strong physically and mentally has got to be the priority over too much endurance work IMHO
I found Running Through the Wall by Neal Jamison, which is an anthology of ultra tales from all standards of runner, quite good for inspiration and picking up on some of the little mental tricks people use to keep going.
You'll be reet P
Jeez I just realised your OP says the race is in may I had read it as UTMB ie late August
You ARE gonna die
I'm sure you'll be fine - injury avoidance is really important at this stage with the temptation to overdo mileage without enough base. Getting strong physically and mentally has got to be the priority over too much endurance work IMHO
I found Running Through the Wall by Neal Jamison, which is an anthology of ultra tales from all standards of runner, quite good for inspiration and picking up on some of the little mental tricks people use to keep going.
You'll be reet P
In reply to ow arm:
I wont be doing the UTMB though, not interested either!
Lots of good suggestions thanks everybody thus far, current weekly milage is around 50 on varied surfaces and gradients. I always wear running shoes loose (aside from walsh fell running ones) and agree the feet get much less trauma that way.
I wont be doing the UTMB though, not interested either!
Lots of good suggestions thanks everybody thus far, current weekly milage is around 50 on varied surfaces and gradients. I always wear running shoes loose (aside from walsh fell running ones) and agree the feet get much less trauma that way.
In reply to ow arm:
50's a decent level. But you dont have long to train. 2 months max, what date in May?
You'll not get much fitter in 2 months but you can learn a lot. you sound pretty experienced though. I'd just put in some longer runs up to 3 weeks before, maybe even 2 weeks if its 15-20 as your last run.
Longer runs on the route or similar terrain will allow you to trial things. Its too close to do much else.
be careful drinking too much and try some sort of electrolye; nuun, succeed, elete etc. Some say you dont need any, I often find I crave salt after 4-5 hours.
I like elete or just salt in water or just salty foods if thats possible. Nuuns upset my stomach for some reason.
50's a decent level. But you dont have long to train. 2 months max, what date in May?
You'll not get much fitter in 2 months but you can learn a lot. you sound pretty experienced though. I'd just put in some longer runs up to 3 weeks before, maybe even 2 weeks if its 15-20 as your last run.
Longer runs on the route or similar terrain will allow you to trial things. Its too close to do much else.
be careful drinking too much and try some sort of electrolye; nuun, succeed, elete etc. Some say you dont need any, I often find I crave salt after 4-5 hours.
I like elete or just salt in water or just salty foods if thats possible. Nuuns upset my stomach for some reason.
In reply to IainRUK:
that all makes sense to me, I sometimes have Zero electrolyte tabs but am getting sick of all the sweeteners in these things - funny you mention elete i ordered some yesterday.
Itll be fun in the end
that all makes sense to me, I sometimes have Zero electrolyte tabs but am getting sick of all the sweeteners in these things - funny you mention elete i ordered some yesterday.
Itll be fun in the end
In reply to ow arm:
At the risk of teaching granny to suck eggs...
Some caution is required with not overusing electrolytes and water - Tim Noakes' excellent book Waterlogged has the full story but it's a sizeable tome - nicely summed up here
http://www.irunfar.com/2012/07/waterlogged-a-dogma-shattering-book.html
At the risk of teaching granny to suck eggs...
Some caution is required with not overusing electrolytes and water - Tim Noakes' excellent book Waterlogged has the full story but it's a sizeable tome - nicely summed up here
http://www.irunfar.com/2012/07/waterlogged-a-dogma-shattering-book.html
In reply to ow arm:
Yeah, you're going to die. But as long as you carry spare socks and understand that it's going to be more of a walk than a run, then that's fine. If you can average 4mph from the off (15 minute miles) and stick to that, then you'll do well.
Also carry a decent amount of warm clothes. I did a 40 miler last year and loads of people bombed out 1/2 round cause the weather turned, they got soaked and couldn't warm up.
Make sure you've tried the kit and food out a few times. Also test out the night running as well. As it's quite a shock.
Foot care is more important than you think. If you get a bad blister it's amazing how much it can slow you down and make you want to drop out. It's possible to push through tiredness etc. So spare socks, spare shoes and body glide (vaseline can get dirt stuck in it).
I also found this book handy:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Relentless-Forward-Progress-Running-Ultramarathons/...
Yeah, you're going to die. But as long as you carry spare socks and understand that it's going to be more of a walk than a run, then that's fine. If you can average 4mph from the off (15 minute miles) and stick to that, then you'll do well.
Also carry a decent amount of warm clothes. I did a 40 miler last year and loads of people bombed out 1/2 round cause the weather turned, they got soaked and couldn't warm up.
Make sure you've tried the kit and food out a few times. Also test out the night running as well. As it's quite a shock.
Foot care is more important than you think. If you get a bad blister it's amazing how much it can slow you down and make you want to drop out. It's possible to push through tiredness etc. So spare socks, spare shoes and body glide (vaseline can get dirt stuck in it).
I also found this book handy:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Relentless-Forward-Progress-Running-Ultramarathons/...
In reply to mattrm:
I have done a few longer fell "outings"; the Bob Graham twice (one in 25 hours, one less than 20), the Paddy Buckley Round, The Tranter and a few 50s.
Working out what you can eat is fairly important but it is amazing how far you can go whilst being sick...
My top tip would be around the mental side and how you reach into your self and support team to cope with the big lows that most people encounter on a big day out - again this is personal and I have had my failures - on my first BG I told myself I just wasn't going to quit (I think many people on the BG give up using the time as an excuse "aint gonna do it sub 24 so I am giving up" - having said that I wanted to quit after 10 hours in the rain but my friends wouldn't let me! On my Paddy I was lucky enough to have failed at mile 50 on the Fellsman with a bad bout of sickness - and knew how much that failure hurt me (and my family as they have to listen to my whining!) so pressed on for myself and family (I was sick for the last 10 hours on that run)... and close friends who are really there for you make a huge difference.
I find there is something amazingly cathartic about giving something everything you have got and doing it - the first time you do something like that it might just be the thing you are most proud of every having achieved (my first BG was very very special to me) - to do it again life re-affirming. As an aside I got a lot more out of my first BG which "didn't count" due to the 24+ time, my second one in 19 25 was really just making a point that I could do it - I think huge efforts are very personal, chose the events/ runs you want to do wisely.
If all I do this year is the Charlie Ramsay Round - I will be a happy man. Best I make it a long training run tomorrow!
Enjoy,
S
I have done a few longer fell "outings"; the Bob Graham twice (one in 25 hours, one less than 20), the Paddy Buckley Round, The Tranter and a few 50s.
Working out what you can eat is fairly important but it is amazing how far you can go whilst being sick...
My top tip would be around the mental side and how you reach into your self and support team to cope with the big lows that most people encounter on a big day out - again this is personal and I have had my failures - on my first BG I told myself I just wasn't going to quit (I think many people on the BG give up using the time as an excuse "aint gonna do it sub 24 so I am giving up" - having said that I wanted to quit after 10 hours in the rain but my friends wouldn't let me! On my Paddy I was lucky enough to have failed at mile 50 on the Fellsman with a bad bout of sickness - and knew how much that failure hurt me (and my family as they have to listen to my whining!) so pressed on for myself and family (I was sick for the last 10 hours on that run)... and close friends who are really there for you make a huge difference.
I find there is something amazingly cathartic about giving something everything you have got and doing it - the first time you do something like that it might just be the thing you are most proud of every having achieved (my first BG was very very special to me) - to do it again life re-affirming. As an aside I got a lot more out of my first BG which "didn't count" due to the 24+ time, my second one in 19 25 was really just making a point that I could do it - I think huge efforts are very personal, chose the events/ runs you want to do wisely.
If all I do this year is the Charlie Ramsay Round - I will be a happy man. Best I make it a long training run tomorrow!
Enjoy,
S
In reply to ow arm:
a bus? you expect me to stoop to public transport?!
ha, might need a rescue, well see soon.
Another question regarding chafing - any suggestions for body glide or similar? (not a fan of vaseline btw). Im happy to stick a plaster over my left nipple which always bleeds on long runs, but in case of chafage in other areas e.g. groin what works?
And on that matter, underwear yea or nay? and if yea which sort? Ive currently got some polyamide seamless ones to reduce moisture.
questions questions questions
a bus? you expect me to stoop to public transport?!
ha, might need a rescue, well see soon.
Another question regarding chafing - any suggestions for body glide or similar? (not a fan of vaseline btw). Im happy to stick a plaster over my left nipple which always bleeds on long runs, but in case of chafage in other areas e.g. groin what works?
And on that matter, underwear yea or nay? and if yea which sort? Ive currently got some polyamide seamless ones to reduce moisture.
questions questions questions
In reply to ow arm:
I had that bodyglide stuff but tended to wear compression shorts under main shorts which mostly avoids the problem altogether.
I had that bodyglide stuff but tended to wear compression shorts under main shorts which mostly avoids the problem altogether.
In reply to ow arm:
I found going over to using compression gear completely eliminated thigh / groin / undercarriage problems for me. Same with a compression t shirt and upper arms but there's a max temp I can tolerate using the t shirt at. Otherwise, for me, Bodyglide does the job ok on the arms, less well at shorts level, and barely at all for the feet. Really long ones, especially in the wet mean tape and Vaseline on the feet for me
I found going over to using compression gear completely eliminated thigh / groin / undercarriage problems for me. Same with a compression t shirt and upper arms but there's a max temp I can tolerate using the t shirt at. Otherwise, for me, Bodyglide does the job ok on the arms, less well at shorts level, and barely at all for the feet. Really long ones, especially in the wet mean tape and Vaseline on the feet for me
In reply to ow arm:
I just vaseline.. found it works fine.
Running shorts and vase and dont have issues generally.
I just vaseline.. found it works fine.
Running shorts and vase and dont have issues generally.
In reply to ow arm:
Another vote for compression shorts - I use the Skinz ones on really long runs - with the odd tactical dab of vaseline from time to time. Seems to do the job.
Another vote for compression shorts - I use the Skinz ones on really long runs - with the odd tactical dab of vaseline from time to time. Seems to do the job.
In reply to ow arm:
anyway the apocalypse happened yesterday, and for my two running buddies, is still happening! looks like theyll be finishing around the 30h mark which is a looong day.
I had to retire at 62 miles due to ankle sprain/pain meaning I still cant walk faster than a drunk woodlouse.
The first finisher was 22.5 hours, it was a bloody hot day and a very tough course. But it is in a really scenic and friendly area of Shropshire, the organisation was excellent fair play to Beyond Marathon.
Check out their website if you are interested in seeing the route.
anyway the apocalypse happened yesterday, and for my two running buddies, is still happening! looks like theyll be finishing around the 30h mark which is a looong day.
I had to retire at 62 miles due to ankle sprain/pain meaning I still cant walk faster than a drunk woodlouse.
The first finisher was 22.5 hours, it was a bloody hot day and a very tough course. But it is in a really scenic and friendly area of Shropshire, the organisation was excellent fair play to Beyond Marathon.
Check out their website if you are interested in seeing the route.
1
In reply to ow arm:
Good effort - you still ran A Very Long Way. A couple of mates did 57 on the 50 mile version and commented how hot it was out there. Nav skills went a bit squiffy 40 miles in! hope you recover soon.
Good effort - you still ran A Very Long Way. A couple of mates did 57 on the 50 mile version and commented how hot it was out there. Nav skills went a bit squiffy 40 miles in! hope you recover soon.
In reply to ow arm:
good on yer mate for going for it - you still beat everyone who didn't get off their arses in the first place
good on yer mate for going for it - you still beat everyone who didn't get off their arses in the first place
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