/ Snares nr Stanage

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Dan Arkle - on 27 Mar 2014
I found some gamekeeper type wire snares on Bole Hill, just up from Dennis Knoll (High Neb Parking).
Does anyone know what species is being targeted. Its obviously a grouse moor.
Billy the fish - on 27 Mar 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle:

Rabbits
Choss on 27 Mar 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle:
Did they come Under any of these?

'To sum up, the use of self-locking snares, the setting of any type of snare in places where they are likely to catch badgers, failure to inspect snares on a daily basis, and setting snares on land without permission, are all offences under the Wildlife and Countryside Act'
Post edited at 23:13
Dan Arkle - on 27 Mar 2014
In reply to Choss:

They were not self locking, so almost certainly legal.
Rabbits for the pot sounds likely, I know there is a high population of brown hares near there too.

I was just a little suprised as I've not seen them set before.
eschaton - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle:

i am finding them more and more around the peak, there are a few on bleaklow that are like mini bear traps - seemingly strong enough to break a human ankle.

The problem seems to be becoming more prevalent in other pennine areas, i've noticed snares being set up along obvious small animal paths near drystone walls, like walshaw dean reservoirs for example
The Lemming - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to eschaton:

Could it be a sign of the economic times where people are resorting to poaching?
David Barratt - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to The Lemming:

> Could it be a sign of the economic times where people are resorting to poaching?

Poaching or hunting? Do you need permission to hunt rabbits? My mum uses hawks and ferrets, but that's in Scotland where land rights are more rational...
johncook - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to eschaton:

The mini bear traps are illegal (called gin traps) and should be reported to the police.
scoobydougan - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to JohnCook: There are loads of these either side of the road leading to Shining Clough, they are inside wire mesh boxes, presumbly to prevent birds landing on them,are they illegal when covered in this way?

johncook - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to scoobydougan:

Not sure. Thought they were illegal because of the cruelty they inflicted, so whether they are covered ot not they are still aiming to cruelly capture something. Call the police and ask them, or the RSPCA, who used to be the ones that prosecuted the users of gin traps.
ceri - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to David Barratt:

not poaching as long as you have landowner's permission
krikoman - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle:

Did you remove them?

I always do, whether legal or not.
johncoxmysteriously - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to David Barratt:

According to the link above, you need permission to hunt rabbits by setting snares on any land. Not sure whose permission.

You also need the landowner's permission otherwise it's poaching - the right to take rabbits is a species of formal right over land, with a very old legal name which I forget.

jcm
johncoxmysteriously - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to krikoman:

> Did you remove them?

> I always do, whether legal or not.

Good for you; never run across one but so would I.

jcm
Dan Arkle - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to krikoman:

I didn't remove them. I'd not seen any before and wanted to know exactly what I was dealing with before I made a judgement.

It seems like an unnecessarily nasty way to die.
Choss on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle:

> I didn't remove them. I'd not seen any before and wanted to know exactly what I was dealing with before I made a judgement.

> It seems like an unnecessarily nasty way to die.

Yea, i would Remove Regardless of Legal or not as well.
Dave Perry - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle:

With the exception of self locking snares, their use is legal, with some provisos. It is likely they were set for foxes and should be set at head hight and in a run. Good keepers will know and recognise the difference between fox runs and badger runs.

Gin traps are illegal. A gin trap has toothed jaws.

The spring traps which work in the same way are legal (they are called Fenn Traps) BUT they must be enclosed so that they can only catch and kill small animals. Keepers will be targeting mink, stoats & weasels. Fenn traps cannot be used uncovered.

And of course, it is totally illegal to pursue any animal or bird on someone else's property without permission. This is poaching.

Removing snares won't bother Keepers too much. They are cheap and easily available. I'd be much more inclined to pull them tight so they can't catch anything else. The keeper won't know its been done by a human and he loses the chance of a catch until he checks them again.

Removing Fenn traps is a wasted effort too. The keeper sees they are missing and gets some more and maybe puts them somewhere less obvious. Much better is to set the safety hook on the hinge side of trap. To avoid injuring yourself when setting them they have a little wire hook next to the hinge. Gently push this over the restrained wire trap jaw. Then when little weasel walks over the trap, nothing untoward happens. The keepers will not likely notice the hook as these traps are not checked every day, and in my experience the keeper simply drives by on a quad bike and will only stop to check a capture.

Choss on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to Dave Perry:

Good tip on the fenn Traps.
johncoxmysteriously - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle:

> I didn't remove them. I'd not seen any before and wanted to know exactly what I was dealing with before I made a judgement.

> It seems like an unnecessarily nasty way to die.

Agreed - I didn't know the bastards who steward our countryside were still using these.

jcm
Ashley - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to johncook:

> Not sure. Thought they were illegal because of the cruelty they inflicted, so whether they are covered ot not they are still aiming to cruelly capture something.

Leg holding traps ie gin traps, the ones with the toothed jaws have been illegal since 1958, it is unlikely that these are what you've seen around. Spring traps ie Fenn traps are legal and do not operate by holding the leg of an animal. Fenn traps are not set to capture, they are set to kill, they are sized differently with the larger sizes have correspondingly stronger springs for different quarry and are basically giant rat traps that work by breaking the neck of the animal, they are located in boxes or tunnels to ensure larger animals are not targeted.
ads.ukclimbing.com
FrankBooth - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle:
Countryside stewardship is clearly important, but I think most people these days want to see pest-control managed as humanely as possible and snaring seems unnecessarily cruel and indiscriminate. if anyone's interested, there's a link here to the National Anti-Snaring Campaign http://www.antisnaring.org.uk/

I'm not sure what the alternatives might be (particularly regarding predators like mink), but I'm sure they exist.

Likewise, I think the romantic image of the Victorian poacher bringing home rabbits for the pot, so beloved by 'bushcraft' enthusiasts, could do with a reality-check. Modern day poachers have little respect for sustainability or suffering.
Post edited at 15:24
arch - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply


Here goes then.

If predators and vermin need to be controlled, what is the best way of doing this ??

Kevster - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to the tread:

Maybe a little over reaction? "I'd always remove them etc"

Why? Because you don't agree - they are legal. Why should you react in this guerilla reactionist way?

I don't agree with footballers wages, but should I take away their earnings? Or maybe run onto the pitch and puncture the ball? I'd probably be arrested for it.
Maybe the hunters don't like chalk, should they chip the holds off?

If you don't agree, maybe be a little more politically pro active action?
Hunters are aware of sensitive views, maybe write to the land owner?
Write to your MP etc.

I'm not endorsing animal suffering, just suggesting that you won't stop a hunter by distroying their traps.
Choss on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to Kevster:
> Maybe a little over reaction? "I'd always remove them etc"

> Why? Because you don't agree - they are legal. Why should you react in this guerilla reactionist way?

Because it is cruel. To Prevent Suffering.

> I'm not endorsing animal suffering, just suggesting that you won't stop a hunter by distroying their traps.

But you will save an animal that fate that day.
Post edited at 20:16
Kevster - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to Choss:

What alternatives do you have?
Shooting - No way is every shot perfect.
Ferrets - Involves shooting or trapping in nets and then man handled
Snares - Either suffocates, or the rabbit sits there on a leash until it is man handled.
Netting - Again how to dispatch?
Hawks or hounds - there's a pretty way to go.

In all honesty, wild animals frequently have a grim death one way or another. Mother nature is inherently cruel when viewed through human emotions.

Unless you're perfectly vegan, then there will be double standards.
Our farmed food or for that matter wild caught food/fur/fabric/glue all have to die some how.
From what I've seen, wild or farmed, humans generally try to make the end swift, but it is never pretty to sensitive eyes - is there a perfect way to die?
Hunters and farmers are not hardened sadists, they usually are compassionate to their environment.

That animal which is saved from fate one day, will live to die another.
Over population creates population crashes - disease, habitat/food shortages, predator populations increase etc.
Humans manipulate virtually every meter of britain in some way. Wild is basically a falacy, controlled and regulated is normal. right or wrong, if that control extends to rabbits, then humans will do it or we will face the same population control pressures ourselves.
If we are exploiting a scarce resource, again, the bunny gets it.

Glad I'm not a bunny in my world... But then is our fate superior in any way?
Kevster - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle:

Oh, rabbit snares are set with the bottom about 4 fingers above the ground, hares are 4 fingers and an extended thumb above the ground.
Any snare will obviously be made of a grade wire to suit the quarry.
Simples.
keith-ratcliffe on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle:

Have a read of this - it has a happy ending.
http://www.interfaceimages.co.uk/landscape/landscape5.htm
Up High on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to Choss:

Its a shame you don't understand the ways of the countryside, the need to control pests.
Snares are not inhumane and they don't cause pain to the animal, a rabbit will just sit there when snared, you simply pick it up and dislocate its neck, this is swift and kills the rabbit instantly no pain no suffering.
If you have ever used snares as a means of vermin control you would understand this.
What right have you got to destroy some one's property just because you don't understand what it is used for?
Ffion Blethyn - on 28 Mar 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle:

Landowners have an obligation to control numbers of rabbits on their land. Snares are just one way of doing it. No method would exist as a plot in a Disney film.

http://www.naturalengland.org.uk/ourwork/regulation/wildlife/species/rabbits.aspx
All occupiers have statutory obligations regarding wild rabbits that are harbouring on their land.

An Order under Section One of the Pests Act 1954 declares England and Wales (except for the City of London, the Isles of Scilly and Skokholm Island) a Rabbit Clearance Area. In this area, every occupier of land is responsible for controlling wild rabbits on his/her land or for taking steps to prevent them causing damage. This is a continuing obligation.
alasdair19 on 29 Mar 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle:

Here's DEFRAs guide
http://archive.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-pets/wildlife/management/documents/snares-cop.pdf

Animal Welfare gets lost in emotion so often.

Basically still legal as long as they don't 'lock,' but can still suffocate and at best the snare restrains until caught and dispatched. A trained person can do this fairly cleanly - the wait's the issue. It is distressing. How distressing, relative to e.g. Halaal meat slaughter, is open to debate. It's longer than bleeding out, that's for sure. Of Kevster's list - a hawk would be better and faster, who really cares about 'pretty?'if you did nothing, what would happen? Myxomatosis? Or something else first?

Definitely more of a discussion to be had than a reactionary 'it's cruel, remove it.' If anyone GENUINELY thinks they have the best answer, would be interested to hear it
alasdair19 on 29 Mar 2014
PS by genuine I mean, thought-out, intelligently argued explanation of what 'should' be done. It IS contraversial.

Al's wife MRCVS
arch - on 30 Mar 2014
In reply to alasdair19:

I hunt Rabbits. I've got permission on three farms to catch and remove any I get. I use two Lurchers and a friend has two Jack russels. We're off out in a bit. The dogs enjoy it, they're doing what they're bred for and we help out the landowner. At the end of the day something dies. Can there be a good way to do it ??

I don't like snares, but they are legal, so you just have to accept it. More Rabbits get away than we catch. (No consolation to the ones we do get I know) But it's survival of the fittest. Over the last two years we have had a bad case of Myxie and another disease call Rabbit Viral Haemorrhaging (Sp) disease. Both not nice to see, Myxie in particular. But for some landowners, Rabbits need controlling.

Choss on 30 Mar 2014
In reply to Up High:

> Its a shame you don't understand the ways of the countryside, the need to control pests.

A bit of an Assumption that i dont Understand the 'ways of the countryside' dont you think?

> Snares are not inhumane and they don't cause pain to the animal, a rabbit will just sit there when snared, you simply pick it up and dislocate its neck, this is swift and kills the rabbit instantly no pain no suffering.

I disagree wholeheartedly. Snares cause Immense and unjustifiable pain and Suffering, and not just to the target Species. Next youll be saying they enjoy it.

> If you have ever used snares as a means of vermin control you would understand this.

Never have because i suffer From Empathy and Compassion.

> What right have you got to destroy some one's property just because you don't understand what it is used for?

A Minor Property Crime is justified to Prevent a greater Crime of causing needless pain distress and Suffering.




Choss on 30 Mar 2014
In reply to Up High:

Im afraid it is you who Obviously dont understand snares my Friend.

A snare is a wire noose that is attached to a stake or heavy object that acts as an anchor to stop the animal escaping. Snares are usually set to catch foxes or rabbits, but their victims can often be badgers, cats or dogs.
Snares are indiscriminate
Snares cannot discriminate between species and any animal that moves through the noose is a potential victim. RSPCA inspectorate surveys show that only a third of the animals caught in snares were actually the species intended to be caught. Cats were trapped in the largest numbers, but many badgers and dogs were also caught. Other snare victims include deer, hedgehogs and squirrels.
The cruelty involved
The snared animal is usually caught by the neck but it may also be trapped by a leg or round the body. Once caught, the animal panics and struggles to free itself. The more it struggles, the tighter the noose becomes; the tighter the noose, the greater the animal's struggle and suffering. Victims of snares may die of strangulation or they may weaken, stop struggling and starve to death or be killed by predators. Sometimes an animal succeeds in pulling the snare away from the anchor. It escapes with the wire still firmly attached to it and then dies from its injuries or because it cannot fend for itself.
Fraser on 30 Mar 2014
In reply to Up High:

> What right have you got to destroy some one's property just because you don't understand what it is used for?


One might also ask what right have you to kill or trap another animal?

wilkie14c - on 30 Mar 2014
In reply to thread:

I take it all of the snare haters do not and have never owned a cat? The cruelist and most indiscrimate killer on 4 legs??

There ain't no fluffy happy endings in the countryside, sorry if thats news to many.

Human eye and a gun is the best method IMO but that may not be practical on big estates and limited staff.
malk - on 30 Mar 2014
In reply to eschaton:

> i am finding them more and more around the peak, there are a few on bleaklow that are like mini bear traps - seemingly strong enough to break a human ankle.

> The problem seems to be becoming more prevalent in other pennine areas, i've noticed snares being set up along obvious small animal paths near drystone walls, like walshaw dean reservoirs for example

seen a few of those up on the weardale moors (fenn traps), but caged. one with a dead stoat inside..grrr..
maybe they were there to protect black grouse but more likely to protect the ones for shooting?
malk - on 30 Mar 2014
In reply to Dave Perry:
re. fenn traps - top tip - will remember that for next time;)
drsdave - on 30 Mar 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle:

Speaking as an ex keeper, it depends upon where the snares are located on the moor that is how they were placed! Yes wire is used for rabbits but on a grouse moor and in particular one that provides an income, Id say foxes!
drsdave - on 30 Mar 2014
In reply to johncook:
Hi John, Gin traps were phased out in the year dot, if they are the sprung loaded straight edged type that replaces gins, they are called ''Fen traps'' probably the MK 4 version.
Post edited at 12:56
ads.ukclimbing.com
drsdave - on 30 Mar 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle:

Dan its not worth removing them. If any doubt then take a photo, show the police and Park Trust and inform them where they are located so they can look into it. If its a matter for concern they will do it for you. Reporting concerns is the best way. If you get caught by the owner of the snare he wont enter into a conservational debate, he'll probably stick one on yer and you wont see him again!
Fraser on 30 Mar 2014
In reply to wilkie14c:

> I take it all of the snare haters do not and have never owned a cat?

You take it wrong.
Up High on 30 Mar 2014
In reply to Choss:
Choss,
I do understand snares your comments show it is you who doesn't, your remarks are often general and that of someone who doesn't understand why there is a need to control vermin and which methods are most suitable.
The snares that I have set are set in selective locations, the have never caught a cat or dog, why because they are set correctly, that means in the right location at the right height and with the correct snare diameter.
They are effective the snared animal doesn't starve to death that is over dramatizing the situation, the snares are checked regularly.
Occasionally a fox will take a snared rabbit but hey that's the way of the land animals predate on others you could say its a good thing as the rabbit would meet its inevitable demise earlier.
There is a necessity to control pests, and it is done in the most appropriate way for the situation.
For instance use your common sense it is impractical and potentially dangerous to shoot in areas of open access where the public frequent so more suitable methods are used.

wintertree - on 30 Mar 2014
In reply to malk:
> seen a few of those up on the weardale moors (fenn traps), but caged. one with a dead stoat inside..grrr..

> maybe they were there to protect black grouse but more likely to protect the ones for shooting?

Upper weardale is crawling with them, usually caged on log bridges over the drainage skies. It's a real shame that the only stoat I've seen up here was in one of those traps.

I can understand the need to protect arable crops form rabbits - and have seen fields where the rabbits have won - but in my mind there's a big difference between humans taking over the role of exiled natural predators to prevent rabbits destroying a major food crop, and the killing of all sorts of little beasties on the moors so that some rich Arabs or Londoners can have their week of grouse shooting.
Post edited at 21:36
Fraser on 30 Mar 2014
In reply to Up High:

Define pests or vermine. And what exactly gives you the right to determine what gets trapped? Why is your opinion worth more than anyone else's?
Firestarter on 30 Mar 2014
In reply to Fraser:

From what I see, he's just giving an opinion, based by the looks of it on experience (which seems to be rare on this thread). Rabbits are defined as pests, not just because they eat what we want to. The burrows in the wrong places, left uncontrolled, have caused earth collapses big enough to threaten buildings, roads, waterways and other transport systems. Shooting can be inappropriate in some of theses areas - snaring is one of the tools in the box, as is gassing, ferreting, and sometimes dogs. Why people get upset about pest control amuses me really - is it because they are cute and furry rather than the likes of cockroaches, rats, fleas etc?
Ashley - on 30 Mar 2014
In reply to Fraser:

> what exactly gives you the right to determine what gets trapped?

Nothing. Natural England decides based on evidence and then issues the General Licence annually, what makes you think you're more informed than them on the situation?
pass and peak - on 31 Mar 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle:

Just to through my lot in. To all those who have written about interfering with these snares, here and elsewhere! By the sounds of things they are legal, set to control foxes at a time when the grouse are nesting, a valuable source of income for the land owner/tenant. They are likely set by the Game keeper under instructions from the land owner. Do you think your actions are helping with access issue's? We may well have the right of access including, climbing on much of England, but this does not give people the right to interfere with other peoples livelihoods. Remember these access rights were hard won with many years of work from the likes of the BMC and others, I'm sure no one on here would be happy if some stranger came into your place of work, damaged your property and interfered with your work, how long would you wait before you asked for their access to be restricted? As some others have said on this post, if you disagree with the practice then write to your MP etc!
Fraser on 31 Mar 2014
In reply to Ashley:

> what makes you think you're more informed than them on the situation?

I don't. I'm voicing an opinion. What's yours?

johncoxmysteriously - on 31 Mar 2014
In reply to pass and peak:

>As some others have said on this post, if you disagree with the practice then write to your MP etc!

That's the spirit. WTF is Benny Rothman, anyway?

jcm
Alan M - on 31 Mar 2014
In reply to wilkie14c:

> I take it all of the snare haters do not and have never owned a cat? The cruelist and most indiscrimate killer on 4 legs??

no I would still say the most cruelist and most indiscriminate killers are on two legs and go by the name human beings. The damage we inflict on our natural heritage through hunting, trapping, poisoning, poaching, habitat destruction etc etc etc is far more costly to our wildlife than a few million cats!

just look at moles as an exalpme as the majority in this area are trying to kill them because they damage the lawn. A cat is a natural hunter doesnt know better its what evolution (human induced evolution) makes it do. humans on the other hand who get irrate about a lawn being temporarily damaged and then proceeding to kill the animal are pretty much beyond help!!

> There ain't no fluffy happy endings in the countryside, sorry if thats news to many.
Agreed but if we actually had a countryside that functioned properly between natural and manmade and not purely based on visual amenity we might find a better compromise!!


Nic DW - on 31 Mar 2014
In reply to Dan Arkle: And all those who talk of removing them:

Land management is important. By exercising your right of access you should not contravention the work of the land-owner. Most areas of moorland are managed and traps may be used both for game or for pest control. And rabbits can do alot of damage if the population grows too high.

It is not your land. If you question the legality of legitimacy of a trap, contact the landowner. Don't give climbers, walkers and other recreational users a bad name. It's no wonder access issues arise if people go around enforcing there 'moral' judgement on the legitimate work of estates...
Nigel Thomson - on 31 Mar 2014

Don't come moaning when access gets restricted to climbing areas because people are tampering with legally placed snares.

Choss: Your random capitalisation is a pain in the arse, can you sort it please?
Choss on 31 Mar 2014
In reply to Nigel Thomson:

> Choss: Your random capitalisation is a pain in the arse, can you sort it please?

nO

;-)


This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.