UKC

My cousin recently decked from a polished limestone route, after he fell and his top cam pulled out. Thankfully he got away with just a bruised foot. Just a timely little reminder that parallel-sided cracks in limestone don't always make for secure cam placements. Look for placements where the crack widens a little at the back, and consider backing up that cam. Stay safe

In reply to bpmclimb:

As someone who has also decked from a cam placement in limestone, I'd second that. If you can get a cam in you can probably get a hex or nut which will be better.

In reply to bpmclimb:

That's not the whole story, sometimes the unevenness of the crack can mean when the cam walks, a lobe can move out. It's less common than average to see climbers extend cams in the UK and that should be the norm on limestone. Folk should also be using hexes more and have a preference for cams where the lobes lock at their full extent.

In reply to bpmclimb:
My ex-wife, (already ex by then), was belaying Nick Bullock on Scarab at Stoney, my youngest daughter Jo who had just started climbing and doing competitions by then but had never done outside trad, was stood next to her
"Mummy, what will happen if Nick falls off?"
" Its ok love, see that big pocket Nick has just put a big friend in it and that will hold him if he falls"
Seconds later Nick was crunching into the ground narrowly missing Jo, very shortly followed by the friend.
“What happened Mummy? You said he would be ok with that friend"
Nick realising the seriousness of the situation, Jo being put off climbing.
“I’m ok Jo, it was good enough to break my fall"
Nick wandered off into the trees trying not to limp, strangely somebody was heard screaming in the direction he had gone,

The only ever proper leader fall I've taken was on limestone after it started raining suddenly on a sunny summers day. A cam stopped me decking.

In reply to bpmclimb:

It seems massively variable to me. Some limestone is hard or chalky and slippery and other parts can be really high friction. The polish from lots lots of gear being placed in a crack obviously doesn't help.

I'd say the average cam on subliminal is at best average, but as long as the rock is up to it they normally seem fine in boulder ruckle (although on average probably not as reliable as grit).

In reply to bpmclimb:

Whilst I totally agree with you that care is indeed needed, that particular cam was badly placed by an inexperienced climber - it was too large for the placement and one set of lobs was wobbling right on the lip of the crack. The placement in question takes a cam quite nicely, because my daughter lowered off one from the self same place a couple of years ago when she bottled on the move that your cousin fell off.

In reply to hms:

Yes, there are well-placed and badly-placed cams! But it's also the case that limestone is less forgiving of less-than-perfect cam placements than most other rock types.

In reply to bpmclimb:

On my first visit to Stoney, before I got on any routes I walked up and put a cam in a nice looking crack and starting giving it a good tug. It stayed in at first but popped out when I put both my feet on the wall and heaved (so about 1kN). I made a mental note to avoid placing cams if possible. I think they can be ok depending on the placement, but they're certainly not the shove in and go bombers that they are on grit.

In reply to bpmclimb:

I think it depends on the coarseness of the limestone. I was at Wynd Cliff on Saturday and didn't trust any of my cam placements. Cams felt more secure at places such as Verdon though where the limesone was rougher.

I find cams can be very prone to walking into limestone cracks. Maybe the secret is to really extend them so that there is no tension from the rope.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

Where is there a crag called Subliminal near Boulder Ruckle? I only can think of Subluminal.

In reply to Al Evans:

I think Bullock was on Black Kabul,acc. to his own book,not Scarab.
I did the second ascent with a hex 11 in that pocket.Bomber.

In reply to bpmclimb:

Are you Mark's cousin?

In reply to paul mitchell:

Actually I think you are right Mitch, it was Black Kabul, can't see Nick falling off Scarab really.

In reply to bpmclimb:

I tend to place cams on limestone in slight constrictions anyway but I can't think of a time I actually fell on one. A buddy of mine did take a spectacular fall on the ramp in Avon after his top two cams ripped. I was belaying and definitely spooked me!

I was recently told that totem cams use a different camming angle which gives them less range but much greater holding power. Apparently someone did a test on actual placements and the totem was the only one that held. (However, he was a distributor for totem and talked a lot...so I took it with a pinch of salt)

In reply to Kemics:

Tottem cams have more range and greater holding power in flared placements. In standard placements I think the holding power is fairly similar.

In reply to bpmclimb:

I belayed a mate who's cam ripped out just by weighting it. Looked pretty bomber to me when he put it in, it was a big cam maybe blue dragon and behind a solid flake. He said take and lent back, moments later he was underneath a now welded rock 5 a few metres below. All I saw was a puff of dust come out the base of the the flake.

For those who haven't seen this:
youtube.com/watch?v=MW1teH6k9xo&

I only use them as a last resort now, and only carry a few totems on limestone just in case!

In reply to Milesy:


Similar for me, minus the rain. A big nut ripped (my fault, shoddy placement and no extender) and I broke my ankle but the cam below it stopped me from decking and having a disastrous result. Pembroke limestone.

My biggest non-sport leader fall was a test with a top-rope back-up. A Kouba/Viamont tricam in limestone. Solid!