This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Please visit www.threepeaks-sorecheeks.co.uk for information on our challenge. There is basically a group of four average guys from Gloucestershire who are doing the Three Peaks and riding our road bikes some 460 miles between them. We are doing this to raise money for Scoo-B-Do supporting Neonatal Care for Sick and Premature babies.
With little experience of climbing we are looking for a volunteer guide to join us on Ben Nevis. We will starting here at 4pm on Thursday 22nd May.
Any help or advice is appreciated, please make contact!
With little experience of climbing we are looking for a volunteer guide to join us on Ben Nevis. We will starting here at 4pm on Thursday 22nd May.
Any help or advice is appreciated, please make contact!
In reply to Three Peaks Sore Cheeks:
A volunteer guide? What's that? All the locally-based Mountain Leaders are trained and qualified professionals who guide clients up Ben Nevis (and elsewhere) as their paid job. Why would they do it for free?
A volunteer guide? What's that? All the locally-based Mountain Leaders are trained and qualified professionals who guide clients up Ben Nevis (and elsewhere) as their paid job. Why would they do it for free?
In reply to Jamie B:
well maybe, but I guess quite a lot of a guides work is involved in events that are raising money for charity so it would have to be a special case!
well maybe, but I guess quite a lot of a guides work is involved in events that are raising money for charity so it would have to be a special case!
Post edited at 15:22
In reply to Three Peaks Sore Cheeks:
That looks like a mental challenge, and if you are really just four 'average' guys it would be ridiculously impressive if you do it.
That looks like a mental challenge, and if you are really just four 'average' guys it would be ridiculously impressive if you do it.
In reply to steve maher:
to be fair depending on snow conditions and weather a guide may not be needed anyway. I've seen both full on white out and blue sky weather with easy navigation and no need for snow/ice gear at that time of year.
to be fair depending on snow conditions and weather a guide may not be needed anyway. I've seen both full on white out and blue sky weather with easy navigation and no need for snow/ice gear at that time of year.
In reply to Jamie B:
I agree. I got pretty much flamed when I suggested that they shouldn't expect qualified ML's to give up a day's potential work for free on the other thread for Scafell Pike asking for the same!
I agree. I got pretty much flamed when I suggested that they shouldn't expect qualified ML's to give up a day's potential work for free on the other thread for Scafell Pike asking for the same!
Post edited at 16:51
In reply to Jamie B:
What do we give to charity if not time and/or money? We can give our possessions (cast-offs??) to be sold, or our efforts to inspire others to give generously. You could seek sponsorship of your effort to help them pay for your services- you might raise more than you cost!!
What do we give to charity if not time and/or money? We can give our possessions (cast-offs??) to be sold, or our efforts to inspire others to give generously. You could seek sponsorship of your effort to help them pay for your services- you might raise more than you cost!!
In reply to Three Peaks Sore Cheeks:
In fairness, you have plenty of time between now and May to get enough knowledge and experience in your group to get up any of the 'three peaks' unguided, but maybe not at night. How fixed are you on that idea ?
In fairness, you have plenty of time between now and May to get enough knowledge and experience in your group to get up any of the 'three peaks' unguided, but maybe not at night. How fixed are you on that idea ?
In reply to Three Peaks Sore Cheeks:
I would definitley get a guide and pay if you have to, Ben Nevis summit plateau can be a very scarey place even for the most competent navigator, I have been up on the summit about ten times and was still caught out this winter in a whiteout down to a couple of meters, took some serious and time consuming navigation to get off safely and i thought i knew the plateau fairly well. Also when i was there, where the Red Burn meets the tourist path there was a fairly steep bank of snow just waiting to catch an unsuspecting walker out, there was the usual queue of helicopter chasers waiting to take there turn on it though, couldn't watch for too long as seemed like only a matter of time before something went wrong, I doubt it will still be there in May, but you never know, and if snow is still on the plateau and you get a whiteout it's probably going to be mission failure and with the amount of effort you have put in cycling it would be a shame.
I would definitley get a guide and pay if you have to, Ben Nevis summit plateau can be a very scarey place even for the most competent navigator, I have been up on the summit about ten times and was still caught out this winter in a whiteout down to a couple of meters, took some serious and time consuming navigation to get off safely and i thought i knew the plateau fairly well. Also when i was there, where the Red Burn meets the tourist path there was a fairly steep bank of snow just waiting to catch an unsuspecting walker out, there was the usual queue of helicopter chasers waiting to take there turn on it though, couldn't watch for too long as seemed like only a matter of time before something went wrong, I doubt it will still be there in May, but you never know, and if snow is still on the plateau and you get a whiteout it's probably going to be mission failure and with the amount of effort you have put in cycling it would be a shame.
Post edited at 17:09
In reply to W Orvis:
At the end of May all you need to do is join the endless crocodile of people all the way from bottom to top.
At the end of May all you need to do is join the endless crocodile of people all the way from bottom to top.
In reply to Three Peaks Sore Cheeks:
Total support for what Jamie B is saying - probably 80% of ML work up Ben Nevis includes a charity event, so this one, although sounding like a serious undertaking including the biking - in terms of asking for professional help being lead up Ben Nevis - is no different.
I don't understand the suggestion of MIA trainnees doing the job as part of their consolidation period. MIA trainees will - by defintion - be ML qualified, so why should they do it for free?
Doing things for charities is great, however people need to realise that qualified mountain leaders and instructors don't fall under that charity category!
Total support for what Jamie B is saying - probably 80% of ML work up Ben Nevis includes a charity event, so this one, although sounding like a serious undertaking including the biking - in terms of asking for professional help being lead up Ben Nevis - is no different.
I don't understand the suggestion of MIA trainnees doing the job as part of their consolidation period. MIA trainees will - by defintion - be ML qualified, so why should they do it for free?
Doing things for charities is great, however people need to realise that qualified mountain leaders and instructors don't fall under that charity category!
In reply to Three Peaks Sore Cheeks:
I'm with Jamie B on this one, volunteer is a swear word in our business!
I'm with Jamie B on this one, volunteer is a swear word in our business!
In reply to Three Peaks Sore Cheeks:
Hi all.
This post really wasn't meant to offend, however I appreciate all of your comments and taking the time to come back to me.
There are just too many things going on to answer you all individually and give reasoning for things. Plus we do not intend to get in to any arguments of who is right and who is wrong when it comes to charity.
The main thing here is that what we are doing will make a difference to the life of a sick or premature baby in the future.
Hopefully you will all support us through this challenge.
Hi all.
This post really wasn't meant to offend, however I appreciate all of your comments and taking the time to come back to me.
There are just too many things going on to answer you all individually and give reasoning for things. Plus we do not intend to get in to any arguments of who is right and who is wrong when it comes to charity.
The main thing here is that what we are doing will make a difference to the life of a sick or premature baby in the future.
Hopefully you will all support us through this challenge.
In reply to GrahamD:
Unless of course strong winds blow fresh snow across the plateau, the crocodile turns around, the mountain reverts to winter and it becomes an unfriendly place to be. This can happen in late May, I've seen it.
> At the end of May all you need to do is join the endless crocodile of people all the way from bottom to top.
Unless of course strong winds blow fresh snow across the plateau, the crocodile turns around, the mountain reverts to winter and it becomes an unfriendly place to be. This can happen in late May, I've seen it.
In reply to Jamie B:
For the same reason millions of other people choose to offer their professional services to a cause they want to support. It's the way the entire third sector is run to a point particularly at board level.
I can think of many people offering their professional knowledge to a charity or organisation they wish to support.
I understand where you are coming from though but it's not black and white.
> A volunteer guide? What's that? All the locally-based Mountain Leaders are trained and qualified professionals who guide clients up Ben Nevis (and elsewhere) as their paid job. Why would they do it for free?
For the same reason millions of other people choose to offer their professional services to a cause they want to support. It's the way the entire third sector is run to a point particularly at board level.
I can think of many people offering their professional knowledge to a charity or organisation they wish to support.
I understand where you are coming from though but it's not black and white.
In reply to Saor Alba:
No it is black and white. Asking a professional guide to look after a group on Ben Nevis is a serious responsibility as well as being time consuming, tiring, etc.
Whether a guide is being paid or not, once they take this on it's down to them to get the job done well and safely. If things were to go wrong, who's door will be getting knocked on.
No it is black and white. Asking a professional guide to look after a group on Ben Nevis is a serious responsibility as well as being time consuming, tiring, etc.
Whether a guide is being paid or not, once they take this on it's down to them to get the job done well and safely. If things were to go wrong, who's door will be getting knocked on.
In reply to Three Peaks Sore Cheeks:
I guide on Ben Nevis regularly and would gladly volunteer my time, so long as I am promised that someone volunteer me their Ferrari, House or daily rate of pay (these are all causes I strongly believe in)
I guide on Ben Nevis regularly and would gladly volunteer my time, so long as I am promised that someone volunteer me their Ferrari, House or daily rate of pay (these are all causes I strongly believe in)
In reply to Three Peaks Sore Cheeks:
Why cut corners on safety by asking for someone random and unqualified to take you up the mountains? Couldn't you just pay a local professional guide yourselves? People have died due to navigation error on Ben Nevis.
If you are lucky enough to get a qualified guide volunteer brilliant, but I wouldn't have thought the guiding sector would last long if everyone worked these sorts of charity challenges for free.
If you decide to go with an unqualified volunteer, good luck, but I hope the volunteer understands the significance of the task they are taking on.
It is a really awesome challenge. However you do it, I hope it goes well.
Why cut corners on safety by asking for someone random and unqualified to take you up the mountains? Couldn't you just pay a local professional guide yourselves? People have died due to navigation error on Ben Nevis.
If you are lucky enough to get a qualified guide volunteer brilliant, but I wouldn't have thought the guiding sector would last long if everyone worked these sorts of charity challenges for free.
If you decide to go with an unqualified volunteer, good luck, but I hope the volunteer understands the significance of the task they are taking on.
It is a really awesome challenge. However you do it, I hope it goes well.
In reply to Three Peaks Sore Cheeks:
Well on the plus side you:
- Are at least getting between the peaks under "body power" rather than careering between them in a vehicle at a speed needed to try and fit them all in within 24 hours.
- Are aware enough of your own limitations in hill country to realise that you probably need a guide.
On the negative side, you're asking a guide to give up a day's revenue to support you. Given that guides are not exactly well-paid, and that they have to buy all their kit and clothing out of this relatively small income, it's a big ask. It's one thing to pop £10 or £20 into a charity collection or "justgiving" page, but another entirely to ask a guide to give up between 1/4 and 1/3 of an average week's gross income (most guides I know are happy if they work, over an average year, 3-4 days a week).
As ever the comment "it's for charity" seems in the minds of some people to trump all rational discussion and almost verges on emotional blackmail.
I'm assuming you've raised a fair bit of sponsorship money for this. Bite the bullet and recognise that hiring a guide is a legitimate expense for your safety. I'm sure some guides might do a special deal for you given the cause, but you shouldn't have expectations of one giving up a whole day's income.
> The main thing here is that what we are doing will make a difference to the life of a sick or premature baby in the future.
> Hopefully you will all support us through this challenge.
Well on the plus side you:
- Are at least getting between the peaks under "body power" rather than careering between them in a vehicle at a speed needed to try and fit them all in within 24 hours.
- Are aware enough of your own limitations in hill country to realise that you probably need a guide.
On the negative side, you're asking a guide to give up a day's revenue to support you. Given that guides are not exactly well-paid, and that they have to buy all their kit and clothing out of this relatively small income, it's a big ask. It's one thing to pop £10 or £20 into a charity collection or "justgiving" page, but another entirely to ask a guide to give up between 1/4 and 1/3 of an average week's gross income (most guides I know are happy if they work, over an average year, 3-4 days a week).
As ever the comment "it's for charity" seems in the minds of some people to trump all rational discussion and almost verges on emotional blackmail.
I'm assuming you've raised a fair bit of sponsorship money for this. Bite the bullet and recognise that hiring a guide is a legitimate expense for your safety. I'm sure some guides might do a special deal for you given the cause, but you shouldn't have expectations of one giving up a whole day's income.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
The reality is they are doing Ben Nevis via the tourist track on late May. Like many many people I cannot think for one minute they should need a guide. They are likely to be a lot better equipped than many others on the mountain.
Of course there is the odd chance that it could be a bad day/week.
My main gripe is that someone comes on here asking an innocent question (in this case not from the mountaineering community) and they are met by rudeness and aggressiveness with Jamie B being the prime example. I don't care if you are a respected local guide. It doesn't excuse the manner in which you constantly respond to people on here
The reality is they are doing Ben Nevis via the tourist track on late May. Like many many people I cannot think for one minute they should need a guide. They are likely to be a lot better equipped than many others on the mountain.
Of course there is the odd chance that it could be a bad day/week.
My main gripe is that someone comes on here asking an innocent question (in this case not from the mountaineering community) and they are met by rudeness and aggressiveness with Jamie B being the prime example. I don't care if you are a respected local guide. It doesn't excuse the manner in which you constantly respond to people on here
In reply to bowls:
I agree.
Don't know if it's just me but after reading this whole thread the guides that have responded don't come out of this in great light.
If charity isn't for you then fine move on but personally I feel so far as a PR exercise you are not doing yourself any favours replying to this thread.
cheers
Gaz
> My main gripe is that someone comes on here asking an innocent question (in this case not from the mountaineering community) and they are met by rudeness and aggressiveness with Jamie B being the prime example. I don't care if you are a respected local guide. It doesn't excuse the manner in which you constantly respond to people on here
I agree.
Don't know if it's just me but after reading this whole thread the guides that have responded don't come out of this in great light.
If charity isn't for you then fine move on but personally I feel so far as a PR exercise you are not doing yourself any favours replying to this thread.
cheers
Gaz
In reply to Jamie B:
Yes, and for me 18 years in mountain rescue is a very similar commitment. What do you think volunteers in many organisations are doing, think you need to get out a bit more and get the snake out your pocket, it's not all about the money...
Yes, and for me 18 years in mountain rescue is a very similar commitment. What do you think volunteers in many organisations are doing, think you need to get out a bit more and get the snake out your pocket, it's not all about the money...
In reply to bowls:
Late may can still be full on winter - it's not that unusual for white out conditions to be present will full snow cover on the plateau at that time of year and the Ben is notoriously tricky to nav in white out.
That said I think its odds on that the tourist track will be visible along with the summit cairns and that the plateau will be patchy snow cover.
Late may can still be full on winter - it's not that unusual for white out conditions to be present will full snow cover on the plateau at that time of year and the Ben is notoriously tricky to nav in white out.
That said I think its odds on that the tourist track will be visible along with the summit cairns and that the plateau will be patchy snow cover.
In reply to Jamie B:
If the conditions are that bad, then the OP should be turning round as well
If the conditions are that bad, then the OP should be turning round as well
> Unless of course strong winds blow fresh snow across the plateau, the crocodile turns around, the mountain reverts to winter and it becomes an unfriendly place to be. This can happen in late May, I've seen it.
In reply to Gael Force:
Well said. Jamie B - take your head out of your own arse for once.
I wonder if I too can claim back 13 years worth of voluntary MR work?
Well said. Jamie B - take your head out of your own arse for once.
I wonder if I too can claim back 13 years worth of voluntary MR work?
In reply to Three Peaks Sore Cheeks:
Wow I feel sorry for you Thre Peaks Sore Cheeks.
The guides on here have come across as a miserable bunch of (insert own expletive). As others have said why comment if you're not interested in helping.
I'm heading up to Scotland hoping to do some winter climbing at the end of the year. I'll make sure my group doesn't use any of these guides!
Good luck on your challenge.
Wow I feel sorry for you Thre Peaks Sore Cheeks.
The guides on here have come across as a miserable bunch of (insert own expletive). As others have said why comment if you're not interested in helping.
I'm heading up to Scotland hoping to do some winter climbing at the end of the year. I'll make sure my group doesn't use any of these guides!
Good luck on your challenge.
In reply to drunken monkey:
Jamie B's head is far from up his arse. If we as guides had to volunteer on every charity ascent of Ben Nevis, you'd soon see us selling the Big Issue. There's a big difference between volunteering your service to an MRT (and may I add it is greatly appreciated)being that from the outset, that is an entirely voluntary position and your professional services as a guide, which you rely on to pay the bills. If you're that arsed about it Drunken Monkey and Gael Force, why dont you be a shining example to us all and volunteer your own time for the above stated date.
Jamie B's head is far from up his arse. If we as guides had to volunteer on every charity ascent of Ben Nevis, you'd soon see us selling the Big Issue. There's a big difference between volunteering your service to an MRT (and may I add it is greatly appreciated)being that from the outset, that is an entirely voluntary position and your professional services as a guide, which you rely on to pay the bills. If you're that arsed about it Drunken Monkey and Gael Force, why dont you be a shining example to us all and volunteer your own time for the above stated date.
Post edited at 13:35
In reply to Three Peaks Sore Cheeks:
As on scaf pike thread, any Experienced Hillwalker would be able to Accompany you up and down the Ben, no worries.
And yes the Prof mountain guides on these threads arent doing themselves any PR favours at All.
As on scaf pike thread, any Experienced Hillwalker would be able to Accompany you up and down the Ben, no worries.
And yes the Prof mountain guides on these threads arent doing themselves any PR favours at All.
In reply to scottie390:
I dont have the time, nor do I stay in Lochaber or I would. However - I dont feel the need to respond with a holier-than-thou response about how hard done by you guides are.
If he's not interested, then fair enough - but his response just makes him seem like a miserable cnut.
I dont have the time, nor do I stay in Lochaber or I would. However - I dont feel the need to respond with a holier-than-thou response about how hard done by you guides are.
If he's not interested, then fair enough - but his response just makes him seem like a miserable cnut.
In reply to scottie390:
From my understanding of it, no one is making anyone do anything. The OP simply asked if anyone was willing to do it. If someone is, good for them - surely that's of no concern to those that don't want to do it. The negativity really doesn't do those that have responded in this way any favours.
From my understanding of it, no one is making anyone do anything. The OP simply asked if anyone was willing to do it. If someone is, good for them - surely that's of no concern to those that don't want to do it. The negativity really doesn't do those that have responded in this way any favours.
In reply to Rob Naylor:
Which, it could be argued, leaves them with 3-4 days per week of free time which might be spent helping charity walkers...
It does seem that factoring the cost of a guide is a good idea at the outset, but on the other hand there's no harm in the OP asking if anyone might guide voluntarily - it'd be another £100 (or whatever the going rate for a guide is) towards their fundraising. They probably shouldn't just expect this as an automatic right of raising money, though.
> most guides I know are happy if they work, over an average year, 3-4 days a week
Which, it could be argued, leaves them with 3-4 days per week of free time which might be spent helping charity walkers...
It does seem that factoring the cost of a guide is a good idea at the outset, but on the other hand there's no harm in the OP asking if anyone might guide voluntarily - it'd be another £100 (or whatever the going rate for a guide is) towards their fundraising. They probably shouldn't just expect this as an automatic right of raising money, though.
In reply to Choss:
I wonder if there would have been less controversy had they not used the word 'guide' in the original post.
"Experienced hillwalker wanted to join Ben Nevis leg of charity event"
I'm not a guide myself (don't even have a summer ML), and so would certainly not join a team as a guide because I think it has significant legal implications (although this might just be my own irrational fear of litigation), but have taken many complete novices (friends / friends of friends) up and down the bigger hills in England and Wales in a variety of conditions in summer and winter. If it were local to me I'd certainly consider volunteering as a 'team member' for the leg but not as a guide.
On the plus side, all this discussion will mean lots of people see the request!
I wonder if there would have been less controversy had they not used the word 'guide' in the original post.
"Experienced hillwalker wanted to join Ben Nevis leg of charity event"
I'm not a guide myself (don't even have a summer ML), and so would certainly not join a team as a guide because I think it has significant legal implications (although this might just be my own irrational fear of litigation), but have taken many complete novices (friends / friends of friends) up and down the bigger hills in England and Wales in a variety of conditions in summer and winter. If it were local to me I'd certainly consider volunteering as a 'team member' for the leg but not as a guide.
On the plus side, all this discussion will mean lots of people see the request!
In reply to splat2million:
I suspect that the phrase "three peaks" also makes people a bit prickly even though the OP is doing something far more challenging and socially responsible than the version that gets all the flak...
> I wonder if there would have been less controversy had they not used the word 'guide' in the original post.
I suspect that the phrase "three peaks" also makes people a bit prickly even though the OP is doing something far more challenging and socially responsible than the version that gets all the flak...
In reply to Three Peaks Sore Cheeks:
(Posting on both threads)
I have mixed opinions about the national three peaks thingy, but that has been done to death on other threads. The fact that you are doing it all under your own leg power is certainly a lot further than most go.
I've sent you a donation by text and also hope that you are able to use the feedback from the threads in a positive and constructive way - there is every chance you won't need guides to take you up Scafell and Ben Nevis, but if you do I hope you find someone to wander up there with you.
On another note, I saw your list of sponsors on your website and the vast range of prizes you have for auction. Given what you have listed there, I think £5000 is a particularly modest target. I hope you will come back and tell us how well you did after the event is over.
Good luck. In my own opinion I always favour charities that attempt to help children, and it is certainly a good thing that you are looking at a very local charity too.
(Posting on both threads)
I have mixed opinions about the national three peaks thingy, but that has been done to death on other threads. The fact that you are doing it all under your own leg power is certainly a lot further than most go.
I've sent you a donation by text and also hope that you are able to use the feedback from the threads in a positive and constructive way - there is every chance you won't need guides to take you up Scafell and Ben Nevis, but if you do I hope you find someone to wander up there with you.
On another note, I saw your list of sponsors on your website and the vast range of prizes you have for auction. Given what you have listed there, I think £5000 is a particularly modest target. I hope you will come back and tell us how well you did after the event is over.
Good luck. In my own opinion I always favour charities that attempt to help children, and it is certainly a good thing that you are looking at a very local charity too.
In reply to Three Peaks Sore Cheeks:
Why do you think you need a guide on Ben Nevis? Thousands of people do it every year without a guide, many without very much experience or training - if you follow the main path and the weather's decent, it's a steady hillwalk, nothing more. If you think you're capable of getting to the top of Scafell or Snowdon without a guide, you're capable of getting to the top of Ben Nevis without a guide.
Why do you think you need a guide on Ben Nevis? Thousands of people do it every year without a guide, many without very much experience or training - if you follow the main path and the weather's decent, it's a steady hillwalk, nothing more. If you think you're capable of getting to the top of Scafell or Snowdon without a guide, you're capable of getting to the top of Ben Nevis without a guide.
In reply to tony:
Except that they are beginners and are setting off at 4pm. There will not be many, if any people around at that time (except those coming down), and it will likely get dark before they are off (sunset on 22nd May is 20:43). They will need to either learn and train to navigate at night, or find someone who already can. I'm not sure moving fast and assuming you'll be down in time would be sensible.
Having someone who knows what they are doing will also allow them a much greater margin of safety if the weather is not good.
P.S. I've also left a donation and would encourage others to do likewise.
Except that they are beginners and are setting off at 4pm. There will not be many, if any people around at that time (except those coming down), and it will likely get dark before they are off (sunset on 22nd May is 20:43). They will need to either learn and train to navigate at night, or find someone who already can. I'm not sure moving fast and assuming you'll be down in time would be sensible.
Having someone who knows what they are doing will also allow them a much greater margin of safety if the weather is not good.
P.S. I've also left a donation and would encourage others to do likewise.
In reply to Removed UserBwox:
That's very simplistic. Work "bunches" and a guide needs to maximise his/ her availability so that if a paying job comes up they need to be able to take it. Several times this year friends who do guiding have had to pull out of planned "leisure" trips to the hills when a paying job has come up at the last minute.
Also, those days are only the days they spend actually generating revenue. On top of that they have training days, kit buying/ servicing/ repairing days and a more time than you'd credit generating publicity and raising their profile.
I agree there's no harm in asking for volunteers, but there was a bit of a sense of "entitlement" coming across, along with some mild emotional blackmail, and I suspect most of those on here slagging off guides who've posted probably have little idea what being self-employed in such a low-earning profession actually entails. I'm not one myself, but I have several good friends who are, and most of them live a fairly hand-to-mouth existence.
> Which, it could be argued, leaves them with 3-4 days per week of free time which might be spent helping charity walkers...
That's very simplistic. Work "bunches" and a guide needs to maximise his/ her availability so that if a paying job comes up they need to be able to take it. Several times this year friends who do guiding have had to pull out of planned "leisure" trips to the hills when a paying job has come up at the last minute.
Also, those days are only the days they spend actually generating revenue. On top of that they have training days, kit buying/ servicing/ repairing days and a more time than you'd credit generating publicity and raising their profile.
I agree there's no harm in asking for volunteers, but there was a bit of a sense of "entitlement" coming across, along with some mild emotional blackmail, and I suspect most of those on here slagging off guides who've posted probably have little idea what being self-employed in such a low-earning profession actually entails. I'm not one myself, but I have several good friends who are, and most of them live a fairly hand-to-mouth existence.
In reply to Gazlynn:
It's not just you.
E
> I agree.
> Don't know if it's just me but after reading this whole thread the guides that have responded don't come out of this in great light.
> If charity isn't for you then fine move on but personally I feel so far as a PR exercise you are not doing yourself any favours replying to this thread.
> cheers
> Gaz
It's not just you.
E
In reply to Removed UserBwox:
Last guide i spoke to on this had done 13 days in a row on the Ben and was desperate for a break but couldn't turn away the cash, same with a few local guides in the Lakes i know, they will work as much as they can if the work is there.
> (In reply to Removed UserRob Naylor)
>
> [...]
>
> Which, it could be argued, leaves them with 3-4 days per week of free time which might be spent helping charity walkers...
>
> [...]
>
> Which, it could be argued, leaves them with 3-4 days per week of free time which might be spent helping charity walkers...
Last guide i spoke to on this had done 13 days in a row on the Ben and was desperate for a break but couldn't turn away the cash, same with a few local guides in the Lakes i know, they will work as much as they can if the work is there.
In reply to splat2million:
Good point - I didn't read that (note to self - read a bit more carefully). It's a bit of shame they're starting so late, but I presume it's do with other legs of the trip. Still, at least they'll get most of it done in the light, and if the weather's good, it'll be a brilliant way to do it, watching sunset from the top of Ben Nevis.
> Except that they are beginners and are setting off at 4pm. There will not be many, if any people around at that time (except those coming down), and it will likely get dark before they are off (sunset on 22nd May is 20:43).
Good point - I didn't read that (note to self - read a bit more carefully). It's a bit of shame they're starting so late, but I presume it's do with other legs of the trip. Still, at least they'll get most of it done in the light, and if the weather's good, it'll be a brilliant way to do it, watching sunset from the top of Ben Nevis.
In reply to Enty:
Reading the latter half of this thread and seeing all the flak Jamie B is getting I assumed that he'd said something very rude or aggressive. When I actually read what he had to say it's hardly that bad is it? Simply saying that guides tend to work for a living.
Anyhow, a competent unqualified local hillwalker might fit this particular bill as suggested elsewhere.
Now, anyone want to drag me up the Inn Pinn for free? Maybe a bottle of whisky?
Reading the latter half of this thread and seeing all the flak Jamie B is getting I assumed that he'd said something very rude or aggressive. When I actually read what he had to say it's hardly that bad is it? Simply saying that guides tend to work for a living.
Anyhow, a competent unqualified local hillwalker might fit this particular bill as suggested elsewhere.
Now, anyone want to drag me up the Inn Pinn for free? Maybe a bottle of whisky?
In reply to Three Peaks Sore Cheeks:
Could easily arrive a lot later than planned too, with a night time ascent and descent.
Could easily arrive a lot later than planned too, with a night time ascent and descent.
In reply to W Orvis:
That's because we don't know if next week there's going to be no work. Not to mention the fact the season is so short to earn. We're not doing this because we can: it's because we have to despite what your post implies
> Last guide i spoke to on this had done 13 days in a row on the Ben and was desperate for a break but couldn't turn away the cash, same with a few local guides in the Lakes i know, they will work as much as they can if the work is there.
That's because we don't know if next week there's going to be no work. Not to mention the fact the season is so short to earn. We're not doing this because we can: it's because we have to despite what your post implies
Post edited at 17:54
In reply to Siward:
Not rude or agressive in the slightest. I pointed out some realities to someone who may not have been aware of them. I still wish the OP every success.
As a footnote, I regularly cancel off family commitments because short-notice work has come through which I'm too skint to turn down. How would I feel turning down a payday because I was already committed to a voluntary gig?
> seeing all the flak Jamie B is getting I assumed that he'd said something very rude or aggressive.
Not rude or agressive in the slightest. I pointed out some realities to someone who may not have been aware of them. I still wish the OP every success.
As a footnote, I regularly cancel off family commitments because short-notice work has come through which I'm too skint to turn down. How would I feel turning down a payday because I was already committed to a voluntary gig?
In reply to Jamie B:
A friend had a not-dissimilar vent/rant on FB today - she's a freelance graphic designer and is getting fed up of people asking for freebies. As she says, she's happy to help where she can, but she does have to earn a living. I think people get confused by the 'free' bit in freelance...
A friend had a not-dissimilar vent/rant on FB today - she's a freelance graphic designer and is getting fed up of people asking for freebies. As she says, she's happy to help where she can, but she does have to earn a living. I think people get confused by the 'free' bit in freelance...
In reply to Gael Force:
An e Gàidheal a th' annad? No one would question your commitment to MR but are you ever asked to do your 'day job' for free?
An e Gàidheal a th' annad? No one would question your commitment to MR but are you ever asked to do your 'day job' for free?
> Yes, and for me 18 years in mountain rescue is a very similar commitment. What do you think volunteers in many organisations are doing, think you need to get out a bit more and get the snake out your pocket, it's not all about the money...
In reply to "the guides"
There are hundreds of ml qualified people who give up their time week in week out for charity. As a scout leader I sometimes leave my family for a week and use 20% of my annual leave to take kids up mountains for no financial reward. We aren't that rare, in fact I reckon there are probably more of us doing it for free than there are not. If I lived in any of the areas requested I would help this guy in a shot. If you are lucky enough to make money from what the rest of us do for free well done. Now let the rest of us get on with helping other people with their own adventures. Let's be honest here, an ml isn't that hard to get, if that's all you have you aren't that special. Those of you with higher qualifications really should be able to make a living without kicking off about someone asking fellow mountaineers and walkers for help.
Good luck to the op. Try a local Scout group if you have no luck here but expect company, a night time ascent of ben nevis sounds like a good excuse for a bit of night nav practice for the older ones. In fact I'd it were me I'd let my older ones lead and I'd follow on behind. Good practice you see.
There are hundreds of ml qualified people who give up their time week in week out for charity. As a scout leader I sometimes leave my family for a week and use 20% of my annual leave to take kids up mountains for no financial reward. We aren't that rare, in fact I reckon there are probably more of us doing it for free than there are not. If I lived in any of the areas requested I would help this guy in a shot. If you are lucky enough to make money from what the rest of us do for free well done. Now let the rest of us get on with helping other people with their own adventures. Let's be honest here, an ml isn't that hard to get, if that's all you have you aren't that special. Those of you with higher qualifications really should be able to make a living without kicking off about someone asking fellow mountaineers and walkers for help.
Good luck to the op. Try a local Scout group if you have no luck here but expect company, a night time ascent of ben nevis sounds like a good excuse for a bit of night nav practice for the older ones. In fact I'd it were me I'd let my older ones lead and I'd follow on behind. Good practice you see.
In reply to XXXX:
You need to come and join us on the 'dark side' and start charging for your services. you never know, you might like it - earning 1000's of £ guiding people doing charity events.
> In reply to "the guides"
> There are hundreds of ml qualified people who give up their time week in week out for charity. As a scout leader I sometimes leave my family for a week and use 20% of my annual leave to take kids up mountains for no financial reward. We aren't that rare, in fact I reckon there are probably more of us doing it for free than there are not. If I lived in any of the areas requested I would help this guy in a shot. If you are lucky enough to make money from what the rest of us do for free well done. Now let the rest of us get on with helping other people with their own adventures. Let's be honest here, an ml isn't that hard to get, if that's all you have you aren't that special. Those of you with higher qualifications really should be able to make a living without kicking off about someone asking fellow mountaineers and walkers for help.
> Good luck to the op. Try a local Scout group if you have no luck here but expect company, a night time ascent of ben nevis sounds like a good excuse for a bit of night nav practice for the older ones. In fact I'd it were me I'd let my older ones lead and I'd follow on behind. Good practice you see.
You need to come and join us on the 'dark side' and start charging for your services. you never know, you might like it - earning 1000's of £ guiding people doing charity events.
In reply to XXXX:
Well if it's all so easy to get an ml it must be easy to walk up and down these hills and the op won't be needing any help. For a guide offering to do this, it will cost them expenses and has cost them in the past in terms of gaining quals etc. I think it's not too much to ask to be paid. Are you paid for going to work, or do you just work for free?
When i go to Tesco for some food they require monetary payment, they really aren't interested in whether or not i helped out on a charity event the day before. We do live in a world that revolves around money, therefore we must charge for our services, it seems pretty straightforward.
All the best for the event
Well if it's all so easy to get an ml it must be easy to walk up and down these hills and the op won't be needing any help. For a guide offering to do this, it will cost them expenses and has cost them in the past in terms of gaining quals etc. I think it's not too much to ask to be paid. Are you paid for going to work, or do you just work for free?
When i go to Tesco for some food they require monetary payment, they really aren't interested in whether or not i helped out on a charity event the day before. We do live in a world that revolves around money, therefore we must charge for our services, it seems pretty straightforward.
All the best for the event
Post edited at 22:34
In reply to Three Peaks Sore Cheeks:
Tell you what, see everyone making a big deal about Jamie pointing out a few facts? Why don't you all donate a tenner and raise the funds to hire the guy. I'm quite sure he'd be happy to put the final tenner in himself. But at the moment you're all sitting on the fence donating nothing, while expecting a guide to donate in the region of £150 on his jack jones. Big difference between a nominal donation and a days graft. Not to mention insurance issues should it all go Pete Tong.
Tell you what, see everyone making a big deal about Jamie pointing out a few facts? Why don't you all donate a tenner and raise the funds to hire the guy. I'm quite sure he'd be happy to put the final tenner in himself. But at the moment you're all sitting on the fence donating nothing, while expecting a guide to donate in the region of £150 on his jack jones. Big difference between a nominal donation and a days graft. Not to mention insurance issues should it all go Pete Tong.
"We do live in a world that revolves around money, therefore we must charge for our services, it seems pretty straightforward."
Well, that's one point of view.
Better tell the Samaritans and all those other do-gooders how they've got it wrong, then.
Post edited at 00:12
In reply to Nigel Thomson:
I did think about making the OP an offer, which would have been a generous one, but I'm committed to other work that week.
To Gael Force, Drunken Monkey and other anonymous name-callers. You may not like me, that's fine, your choice. But at least reveal your identity so that I have the option to dislike you too.
> See everyone making a big deal about Jamie pointing out a few facts? Why don't you all donate a tenner and raise the funds to hire the guy. I'm quite sure he'd be happy to put the final tenner in himself.
I did think about making the OP an offer, which would have been a generous one, but I'm committed to other work that week.
To Gael Force, Drunken Monkey and other anonymous name-callers. You may not like me, that's fine, your choice. But at least reveal your identity so that I have the option to dislike you too.
In reply to Jamie B:
I see you are still digging a large hole.
You said originally, 'A volunteer guide? What's that? All the locally-based Mountain Leaders are trained and qualified professionals who guide clients up Ben Nevis (and elsewhere) as their paid job. Why would they do it for free?'
Some of us have pointed out it's good to do charity work or help others for free, I do guiding for free now and again for charity, if you don't want to thats up to you.
Many others in other professions do stuff for free, it's a personal choice, the fact you need to ask why people do voluntary work is a bit of a shocker...
I also don't understand why you would want to dislike people with this view, nor do I think anybody has called you names, they have just disagreed with your view on doing charity or voluntary work.
I see you are still digging a large hole.
You said originally, 'A volunteer guide? What's that? All the locally-based Mountain Leaders are trained and qualified professionals who guide clients up Ben Nevis (and elsewhere) as their paid job. Why would they do it for free?'
Some of us have pointed out it's good to do charity work or help others for free, I do guiding for free now and again for charity, if you don't want to thats up to you.
Many others in other professions do stuff for free, it's a personal choice, the fact you need to ask why people do voluntary work is a bit of a shocker...
I also don't understand why you would want to dislike people with this view, nor do I think anybody has called you names, they have just disagreed with your view on doing charity or voluntary work.
In reply to people wanting free stuff:
My reaction was the same as Jamie B.
Reminds me of this :
http://www.imaging-resource.com/ee_uploads/news/3168/craigslist-photographe...
My reaction was the same as Jamie B.
Reminds me of this :
http://www.imaging-resource.com/ee_uploads/news/3168/craigslist-photographe...
In reply to Gael Force:
"think you need to get out a bit more and get the snake out your pocket"
Perhaps not exactly name calling but nevertheless incredibly rude and uncalled for.
"think you need to get out a bit more and get the snake out your pocket"
Perhaps not exactly name calling but nevertheless incredibly rude and uncalled for.
In reply to abarro81:
As a software consultant being asked to fix innumerable printers and reinstall countless OS on my week-ends, sometimes by complete strangers (local charity, friend of cousin of neighbour), I find that really pathetic.
You don't have to accept, of course, but no need to be rude.
As a software consultant being asked to fix innumerable printers and reinstall countless OS on my week-ends, sometimes by complete strangers (local charity, friend of cousin of neighbour), I find that really pathetic.
You don't have to accept, of course, but no need to be rude.
Post edited at 10:08
In reply to Nigel Thomson:
This Thread started with a request asking about a guide volunteering his / her time for free for charity.
Jamie (which I have no problem with) asked why should he do it for free as it's his livelihood.
Fine he felt that he should get paid for doing his day to day job which has validity but he then asked a question
"Would you do a day's work and forswear your wages for charity?"
followed by other guides comments like
"Volunteering is a swear word"
"Give me your Ferrari for a day"
These comments is where I and if I'm reading this thread correctly others have an issue with as millions of people throughout the world volunteer on a daily basis.
I am a hypocrite though as am I going to donate any money to the 4 guys? Probably not as I have to fill up my Ferrari and it's a greedy bugger but if I was a guide where part of the job is socialising with your clients I certainly wouldn't go on a public forum questioning the whole ethos of volunteering.
cheers
Gaz
This Thread started with a request asking about a guide volunteering his / her time for free for charity.
Jamie (which I have no problem with) asked why should he do it for free as it's his livelihood.
Fine he felt that he should get paid for doing his day to day job which has validity but he then asked a question
"Would you do a day's work and forswear your wages for charity?"
followed by other guides comments like
"Volunteering is a swear word"
"Give me your Ferrari for a day"
These comments is where I and if I'm reading this thread correctly others have an issue with as millions of people throughout the world volunteer on a daily basis.
I am a hypocrite though as am I going to donate any money to the 4 guys? Probably not as I have to fill up my Ferrari and it's a greedy bugger but if I was a guide where part of the job is socialising with your clients I certainly wouldn't go on a public forum questioning the whole ethos of volunteering.
cheers
Gaz
In reply to Gazlynn:
The OP has already asked for a Volunteer guide for Scafell Pike.
The OP has already asked for a Volunteer guide for Scafell Pike.
In reply to higherclimbingwales: So what? If you don't want to do it, don't do it.
Have any proper guides responded anyway?
Have any proper guides responded anyway?
In reply to Sreapadair: I see you registered just to reply to this thread, are you Jamie B ?
Anyway if you think the comments you quoted are incredibly rude you need to get out a bit more to...
Anyway if you think the comments you quoted are incredibly rude you need to get out a bit more to...
In reply to drolex:
I wasn't being rude, I was posting a link to a topical photo that some people might find vaguely amusing. I give up on ukc. Again.
I wasn't being rude, I was posting a link to a topical photo that some people might find vaguely amusing. I give up on ukc. Again.
In reply to Gael Force:
I know who he is, if you search his posting history he's a extremely civil and patient contributer, far more so than either of us I suspect..
> I see you registered just to reply to this thread, are you Jamie B ?
I know who he is, if you search his posting history he's a extremely civil and patient contributer, far more so than either of us I suspect..
In reply to Sir Chasm:
Is 'guide' in itself a protected term? What about MLs working as walking guides, hiking guides etc?
Or is there maybe a difference between a person who guides a group within the remit of their NGB qualification, and someone who is a Mountain Guide, affiliated with UIAGM, AMGA etc, and both can be described as 'proper guides', within the right context?
Is 'guide' in itself a protected term? What about MLs working as walking guides, hiking guides etc?
Or is there maybe a difference between a person who guides a group within the remit of their NGB qualification, and someone who is a Mountain Guide, affiliated with UIAGM, AMGA etc, and both can be described as 'proper guides', within the right context?
In reply to richprideaux:
Perhaps he wanted a Girl Guide, I'm sure plenty of them would be perfectly capable of a wander up Ben Nevis.
> Is 'guide' in itself a protected term? What about MLs working as walking guides, hiking guides etc?
> Or is there maybe a difference between a person who guides a group within the remit of their NGB qualification, and someone who is a Mountain Guide, affiliated with UIAGM, AMGA etc, and both can be described as 'proper guides', within the right context?
Perhaps he wanted a Girl Guide, I'm sure plenty of them would be perfectly capable of a wander up Ben Nevis.
In reply to Three Peaks Sore Cheeks:
As you'll have realised there's a bit of a sensitivity here! This is partly because in the UK we don't have a guiding culture as per the Alps; MLs etc are more plentiful than ever and in the process of professionalising the business. There is ample history of people who don't know otherwise thinking of 'mountain guiding' as a kid-on holiday job type thing, paying pocket money. Hence the reaction.
Grumpy guides? No, just proud, in fact JB is one of the nicest people I know, so much so in fact that he's a best man at my wedding!
My foremost thought, however, is that If you're committed to such a fantastic challenge, why don't you look after yourselves on the Ben. It is often a very serious place but with a modicum of planning and preparation you'd have no bother. A good project and a bit of an adventure! There's lots of information online and you can always ask for advice.
All the best!
As you'll have realised there's a bit of a sensitivity here! This is partly because in the UK we don't have a guiding culture as per the Alps; MLs etc are more plentiful than ever and in the process of professionalising the business. There is ample history of people who don't know otherwise thinking of 'mountain guiding' as a kid-on holiday job type thing, paying pocket money. Hence the reaction.
Grumpy guides? No, just proud, in fact JB is one of the nicest people I know, so much so in fact that he's a best man at my wedding!
My foremost thought, however, is that If you're committed to such a fantastic challenge, why don't you look after yourselves on the Ben. It is often a very serious place but with a modicum of planning and preparation you'd have no bother. A good project and a bit of an adventure! There's lots of information online and you can always ask for advice.
All the best!
In reply to richprideaux:
Hi,
Anyone can describe themselves as a mountain guide - it is not a "protected term" as you describe it....the best analogy I can think of is someone calling themselves an accountant - the accountancy professional bodies tried in vain some years ago to make it a protected term and it got thrown out.
There are many people who act as mountain guides both at home and abroad and are not UIAGM...and long may it continue, as they are (in my experience)excellent mountain guides.
ANdy
Hi,
Anyone can describe themselves as a mountain guide - it is not a "protected term" as you describe it....the best analogy I can think of is someone calling themselves an accountant - the accountancy professional bodies tried in vain some years ago to make it a protected term and it got thrown out.
There are many people who act as mountain guides both at home and abroad and are not UIAGM...and long may it continue, as they are (in my experience)excellent mountain guides.
ANdy
In reply to Murko Fuzz:
There's quite a bit of that assumption on here judging by some of the posts.
> As you'll have realised there's a bit of a sensitivity here! ...There is ample history of people who don't know otherwise thinking of 'mountain guiding' as a kid-on holiday job type thing, paying pocket money. Hence the reaction.
There's quite a bit of that assumption on here judging by some of the posts.
Post edited at 19:25
In reply to Gael Force:
Are you familiar with the concept of projection?
"A fascinating part of psychological studies is the concept of projection and what it reveals about someone giving you advice or commenting on what you are like as a person.
Projection is a psychological term that recognises the reflection of a speakers own views of themselves when communicating a message to you.
For example, if someone calls you "arrogant" or "deluded" or suggests that "you need professional help" or that "you are living in a bubble", in actuality this is a fundamental belief that the speaker has about themselves that they find challenging to accept about themselves. It is a cry for help in that, on a sub conscious level at least, they are looking to find out how to find out to appropriately respond to negativity they have heard levelled about themselves in the past. "
I truly wish you the best of luck with getting your snake out of your pocket.
Are you familiar with the concept of projection?
"A fascinating part of psychological studies is the concept of projection and what it reveals about someone giving you advice or commenting on what you are like as a person.
Projection is a psychological term that recognises the reflection of a speakers own views of themselves when communicating a message to you.
For example, if someone calls you "arrogant" or "deluded" or suggests that "you need professional help" or that "you are living in a bubble", in actuality this is a fundamental belief that the speaker has about themselves that they find challenging to accept about themselves. It is a cry for help in that, on a sub conscious level at least, they are looking to find out how to find out to appropriately respond to negativity they have heard levelled about themselves in the past. "
I truly wish you the best of luck with getting your snake out of your pocket.
In reply to Gael Force:
You tell me. You're the one who wrote, "think you need to get out a bit more and get the snake out your pocket."
You tell me. You're the one who wrote, "think you need to get out a bit more and get the snake out your pocket."
In reply to Three Peaks Sore Cheeks:
Out of interest, would anyone be able to comment on how big a proportion of professional guides' work is charity challenges like this?
I started reading this thread with the assumption that it was quite a lot, but realise that was an assumption based on nothing in particular.
Out of interest, would anyone be able to comment on how big a proportion of professional guides' work is charity challenges like this?
I started reading this thread with the assumption that it was quite a lot, but realise that was an assumption based on nothing in particular.
In reply to Three Peaks Sore Cheeks:
Hi. I'll pledge £10 towards UKC forumers paying for a "guide" (I'm being careful) for these guys if anyone else is interested. As a a one off mind you! cheers.
Hi. I'll pledge £10 towards UKC forumers paying for a "guide" (I'm being careful) for these guys if anyone else is interested. As a a one off mind you! cheers.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I most certainly do I think that men who sit around thinking about and writing about the "snake" in other men's "pockets" are clearly spending too much time at home worrying about their own.
I most certainly do I think that men who sit around thinking about and writing about the "snake" in other men's "pockets" are clearly spending too much time at home worrying about their own.
Post edited at 21:48
In reply to splat2million:
I did about half a dozen last summer, so a useful but not pivotal contributor. Some do more (I'm guessing maybe 20 days for some?) others do none at all. It's not the most thrill-packed or adventurous work that we do, but there is a certain satisfaction from seeing motivated participants pushing beyond their comfort zones, and doing something positive for others. Asking for payment is certainly not belittling their efforts, just seeking to professionalise them.
In return the clients get the reassurance that they have someone with them that knows the mountain, but also, crucially, has experience of how people and situations can get stretched on the Ben, and knows how best to deal with that. Added to all the other expenses a charity effort must entail I don't think it's a huge one
> Out of interest, would anyone be able to comment on how big a proportion of professional guides' work is charity challenges like this?
I did about half a dozen last summer, so a useful but not pivotal contributor. Some do more (I'm guessing maybe 20 days for some?) others do none at all. It's not the most thrill-packed or adventurous work that we do, but there is a certain satisfaction from seeing motivated participants pushing beyond their comfort zones, and doing something positive for others. Asking for payment is certainly not belittling their efforts, just seeking to professionalise them.
In return the clients get the reassurance that they have someone with them that knows the mountain, but also, crucially, has experience of how people and situations can get stretched on the Ben, and knows how best to deal with that. Added to all the other expenses a charity effort must entail I don't think it's a huge one
In reply to splat2million:
...and for reference, probably do the same again number of non-charity walks up the Ben track for smaller groups and individuals. I can therefore testify that descending the broken lower part of the track at a slow pace is hard going on an old leader's knees, and definitely feels like work!
...and for reference, probably do the same again number of non-charity walks up the Ben track for smaller groups and individuals. I can therefore testify that descending the broken lower part of the track at a slow pace is hard going on an old leader's knees, and definitely feels like work!
In reply to Jamie B:
I agree. I can do a 10 mile run over the fells and my knees feel less bothered by that than descending Snowdon at 1kph.
I agree. I can do a 10 mile run over the fells and my knees feel less bothered by that than descending Snowdon at 1kph.
> ...and for reference, probably do the same again number of non-charity walks up the Ben track for smaller groups and individuals. I can therefore testify that descending the broken lower part of the track at a slow pace is hard going on an old leader's knees, and definitely feels like work!
In reply to Sreapadair:
I just didn't understand why someone would wonder why they or somebody else should not do work for charity. Still don't, you haven't clarified that
I just didn't understand why someone would wonder why they or somebody else should not do work for charity. Still don't, you haven't clarified that
In reply to Gael Force:
I don't think that is what they are saying.
I think this discussion is more a symptom of two things 1) that there isn't really a culture of volunteering for (non-MRT) community initiatives amongst the outdoor scene and 2) as per usual the UKC argument has polarised people into positions they can't back down from.
Also, the low pay/low security nature of freelancing plays its part.
I don't think that is what they are saying.
I think this discussion is more a symptom of two things 1) that there isn't really a culture of volunteering for (non-MRT) community initiatives amongst the outdoor scene and 2) as per usual the UKC argument has polarised people into positions they can't back down from.
Also, the low pay/low security nature of freelancing plays its part.
In reply to Saor Alba: There's also a little bit of volunteering going on in the Scouts, Guides, Boy's Brigade et al.
In reply to Jamie B:
I dislike the knee jarring paved lower paths of both Ben Nevis and SCNL in equal measure in descent. Both negate my natural gait and reduce me to a tiptoeing painfully slow pace. Funnily enough it's the total opposite in ascent.
> ... I can therefore testify that descending the broken lower part of the track at a slow pace is hard going on an old leader's knees, and definitely feels like work!
I dislike the knee jarring paved lower paths of both Ben Nevis and SCNL in equal measure in descent. Both negate my natural gait and reduce me to a tiptoeing painfully slow pace. Funnily enough it's the total opposite in ascent.
In reply to Saor Alba:
Low pay and low security is a symptom of a job that is highly desirable with low barriers to entry. I would love to make a living taking people up and down ben nevis but it doesn't pay enough. Instead I make a living from some of my more sought after skills and qualifications that are rarer. Sorry, that's the way it is. Before you ask, yes I do volunteer those skills aswell.
Low pay and low security is a symptom of a job that is highly desirable with low barriers to entry. I would love to make a living taking people up and down ben nevis but it doesn't pay enough. Instead I make a living from some of my more sought after skills and qualifications that are rarer. Sorry, that's the way it is. Before you ask, yes I do volunteer those skills aswell.
In reply to XXXX:
I would love to make a living taking people up and down ben nevis but it doesn't pay enough.
I would argue that's your lifestyle choice, not a reflection of how much you would get paid
Instead I make a living from some of my more sought after skills and qualifications that are rarer. Sorry, that's the way it is. Before you ask, yes I do volunteer those skills swell.
But i imagine you'd get pretty p*ssed off if someone pitched up outside your place of work and gave your customers the option of having it done for free - after all accountancy is 'only doing sums', lawyers are 'only good at arguing', orthopaedic surgeons are 'only good at DIY', etc.
> Low pay and low security is a symptom of a job that is highly desirable with low barriers to entry.
I think Saor was referring to the freelance aspect inferring poor security - that's true of most freelance roles where there isn't necessarily a high level of repeat custom - for instance a BMG might get a lot of repeat gigs for Jagged Globe running Alpine courses, say, but less for an individual wanting to climb Mont Blanc. Low pay is, incidentally, not necessarily a marker of high desirability with low entry requirements - isn't it an indicator of the value society attaches to that role? Personally i think that teachers are worth more to society that footballers, but a glance at their wage packets would seem to suggest i'm wrong...I would love to make a living taking people up and down ben nevis but it doesn't pay enough.
I would argue that's your lifestyle choice, not a reflection of how much you would get paid
Instead I make a living from some of my more sought after skills and qualifications that are rarer. Sorry, that's the way it is. Before you ask, yes I do volunteer those skills swell.
But i imagine you'd get pretty p*ssed off if someone pitched up outside your place of work and gave your customers the option of having it done for free - after all accountancy is 'only doing sums', lawyers are 'only good at arguing', orthopaedic surgeons are 'only good at DIY', etc.
In reply to Jamie B:
I used to out with a girl who worked for Greenpeace. They were all making good money. I'm sure they occasionally also work for charities for free in their spare time but in the general case many charity workers get paid. I would see you as a very similar case.
Another thing is I doubt I could work guiding people up the Ben every day of the week, I'd need more than just weekends off. Working for free on your off days may mean you have to turn down work for the next day!
I used to out with a girl who worked for Greenpeace. They were all making good money. I'm sure they occasionally also work for charities for free in their spare time but in the general case many charity workers get paid. I would see you as a very similar case.
Another thing is I doubt I could work guiding people up the Ben every day of the week, I'd need more than just weekends off. Working for free on your off days may mean you have to turn down work for the next day!
Post edited at 10:21
In reply to Removed User:
In this instance low pay is because there are lots of people doing it, not a great deal of demand and loads of people who have the same qualifications doing it for nothing. To make money from walking up Ben Nevis and back is difficult, because frankly it's a lot of fun and loads of people want the job.
If someone is prepared to pay for the qualifications, whatver they may be, and then give the skills for free, you have a problem. It's unlikely for me, which is why I do this job and I don't have a guiding business.
Yes, that is a lifestyle choice. I've chosen to have a job with a good pension, regular income and good security. "Guides" have chosen to have a job that gets them outdoors, doesn't involve stakeholders, strategy and office air conditioning, but lacks the other two. That's their choice and they have no right to criticise volunteers who give up their time, people like me.
The OP is perfectly within their rights to ask and people are perfectly within their rights to offer their services.
In this instance low pay is because there are lots of people doing it, not a great deal of demand and loads of people who have the same qualifications doing it for nothing. To make money from walking up Ben Nevis and back is difficult, because frankly it's a lot of fun and loads of people want the job.
If someone is prepared to pay for the qualifications, whatver they may be, and then give the skills for free, you have a problem. It's unlikely for me, which is why I do this job and I don't have a guiding business.
Yes, that is a lifestyle choice. I've chosen to have a job with a good pension, regular income and good security. "Guides" have chosen to have a job that gets them outdoors, doesn't involve stakeholders, strategy and office air conditioning, but lacks the other two. That's their choice and they have no right to criticise volunteers who give up their time, people like me.
The OP is perfectly within their rights to ask and people are perfectly within their rights to offer their services.
In reply to XXXX:
OP and those who offer their services for free are, of course, within their rights. But it devalues the service. In my place of work we are bombarded with requests on a daily basis for language translations. No one wants to pay. Guiding and translating are both skills which take much time and money to aquire and it is in no way unreasonable to expect payment in return for those servcies.
OP and those who offer their services for free are, of course, within their rights. But it devalues the service. In my place of work we are bombarded with requests on a daily basis for language translations. No one wants to pay. Guiding and translating are both skills which take much time and money to aquire and it is in no way unreasonable to expect payment in return for those servcies.
In reply to Sreapadair:
We could join on the back of the Nepal Mountaineering Association bid for No unguided climbing on 8000 and 7000 meter peaks plus any charity or 3 peak challenge up the tourist path of Ben Nevis.
The guides would be minted
Seriously though not one reply was asking the guides to work for nothing just to respect the people who do.
cheers
Gaz
We could join on the back of the Nepal Mountaineering Association bid for No unguided climbing on 8000 and 7000 meter peaks plus any charity or 3 peak challenge up the tourist path of Ben Nevis.
The guides would be minted
Seriously though not one reply was asking the guides to work for nothing just to respect the people who do.
cheers
Gaz
Post edited at 16:18
In reply to XXXX:
If you've ever done Ben Nevis via the tourist route, you will know that It's not , frankly, fun. Far from it. Walking up and down Ben Nevis or any mountain, for that matter, day in and out is hard because it's hard work mentally and physically - not because there's too many folks doing the same. Every time I go out with a group I see that as a days hard wear on my knees I won't get back and its right that I charge for that wear and tear.
> In this instance low pay is because there are lots of people doing it, not a great deal of demand and loads of people who have the same qualifications doing it for nothing. To make money from walking up Ben Nevis and back is difficult, because frankly it's a lot of fun and loads of people want the job.
If you've ever done Ben Nevis via the tourist route, you will know that It's not , frankly, fun. Far from it. Walking up and down Ben Nevis or any mountain, for that matter, day in and out is hard because it's hard work mentally and physically - not because there's too many folks doing the same. Every time I go out with a group I see that as a days hard wear on my knees I won't get back and its right that I charge for that wear and tear.
In reply to Saor Alba:
I disagree with this. Several of the guides/ instructors I know give up a lot of their time to scouts andf other youth groups. also to disabled groups.
And lots of people are involved in running clubs and groups on a purely voluntary basis. When I was involved in BRYCS, for instance, it was quite heartening to see how many people, including some well-known figures, gave up their time for those events.
I think that's a big element. And it's the sheer amount of requests going around. Even just in my own company, which is not "outdoors related" at all, I'll get at least a dozen email requests a month for sponsoring people to do the 3 peaks, climb Kilimanjaro, walk the South Downs Way in 24 hours, etc. I'm regularly approached myself by people at work or other acquaintances saying "we know you do some climbing and mountaineering, can you come with my group doing the 3 peaks (or Snowdon, or Tryfan, etc) to make sure we don't get into trouble?". These requests often assume that since I enjoy being in the hills, I'll be happy to (a) pay my own way to the venue and (b) take off at the drop of a hat with a bunch of very inexperienced people. I mostly give them contact details of one of my instructor/ guide mates.
> I think this discussion is more a symptom of two things 1) that there isn't really a culture of volunteering for (non-MRT) community initiatives amongst the outdoor scene
I disagree with this. Several of the guides/ instructors I know give up a lot of their time to scouts andf other youth groups. also to disabled groups.
And lots of people are involved in running clubs and groups on a purely voluntary basis. When I was involved in BRYCS, for instance, it was quite heartening to see how many people, including some well-known figures, gave up their time for those events.
> Also, the low pay/low security nature of freelancing plays its part.
I think that's a big element. And it's the sheer amount of requests going around. Even just in my own company, which is not "outdoors related" at all, I'll get at least a dozen email requests a month for sponsoring people to do the 3 peaks, climb Kilimanjaro, walk the South Downs Way in 24 hours, etc. I'm regularly approached myself by people at work or other acquaintances saying "we know you do some climbing and mountaineering, can you come with my group doing the 3 peaks (or Snowdon, or Tryfan, etc) to make sure we don't get into trouble?". These requests often assume that since I enjoy being in the hills, I'll be happy to (a) pay my own way to the venue and (b) take off at the drop of a hat with a bunch of very inexperienced people. I mostly give them contact details of one of my instructor/ guide mates.
In reply to scottie390:
I agree.. I've done some work with charities.. they were professional fundraisers yet expected you to give time for free..
But aspiring ML's would be perfect for this.. good experience for them.
I agree.. I've done some work with charities.. they were professional fundraisers yet expected you to give time for free..
But aspiring ML's would be perfect for this.. good experience for them.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...