UKC

I have to agree.




http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/conservative/10753305/Conservative...

In reply to stroppygob:

Of course, workers who "know their place" feel at home in the Tory party... doffing the cap comes natural! Not to mention tugging the forelock.

In reply to stroppygob:

Well that article also cites Thatcher as being one of the "Conservatives who have done the most for the poorest" so I'd be inclined to take its message with a lorry-load of salt.

reply to stroppygob:

The conservatives are the natural party for wokers with right of centre views, while labour is the natural party for those with more left wing opinions. And bears do shit in the woods.

I appreciate there is scope for the Tories to attract some traditional labour voters who actually have right wing views but the whole beer and bingo thing shows how out of touch they are.

You may have a point about labour's "latte sipping metrosexuals", as you put it on another thread, but Labour do have a genuine grassroots party activist in the seats we are talking about, and they are good at getting their support out.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


Well I have a higher regard for working people than that.

In reply to Mike Stretford:




But that, like all political party membership, has been waning for some time now.

In reply to stroppygob:

Oh. this is so sad, dense, thick, unintelligent members of the working class, particularly those with racist views, will vote tory, irrespective of the damage it does to their own situation. 90% of all working people in the UK should vote labour, but they won't through greed and personal prejudices.
It has always been so, the right are better at mobilising their support with proganda spread by the media.

In reply to Al Evans:


Thus nicely illustrating the condescending, patriarchal stance that puts many off voting labour when they might otherwise.......

In reply to Al Evans:


Why? What are the Labour policies that make them uniquely the party of the dense thick unintelligent racists?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

How naive you are Brucie. I for one have NEVER doffed my cap nor tugged my forelock, metaphorically or otherwise. Neither do I know any working class Tories who have done so. On the contrary I have frequently castigated my local MP(a Cabinet Minister) pointing out to him the feeling I and many others have for the current Tory "government". That said I do not and never will see Labour as a viable alternative. In their present form they are no more representative of the working class than Kim Jong Un is of the people of Korea.

In reply to FesteringSore:

I had you down as petite bourgeoisie, but saying that, you do seem to regularly doff your metaphorical cap on a regular basis.

In reply to stroppygob:

Fundamentally it rather depends on what you think a working class is ? after all it doesn't fit in the sequence of upper class / middle class / under class, does it ? and its certainly not the set, or even a subset, of everyone who works for a living. is it really a 'class' or is it lazy shorthand for a state of mind ?

In reply to Carolyn:


+ 1

In reply to Carolyn:


<applause>

In reply to tony:


The last Labour govt did manage to bomb more dusky hued people than the BNP could ever dream of doing, so that might help?

In reply to stroppygob:

Irony filter turned off? When did you see a forelock tugged?

In reply to Carolyn:


I don't think Al is the official spokesperson of the Labour party so you are a little off target. He's giving his opinion and I'm sure a good, freedom loving tory like yourself (no offence meant) wouldn't deny him that?

In reply to Carolyn:

Quite why the white working class should vote for the sneering, patronising, self-admiring Islington lefties and career politicians that make up the modern Labour party, who view them with pretty much open contempt and loathing and have never done anything but harm their interests is deeply mysterious. That and having a leader who most people doubt could run a bath, let alone the country, and a shadow chancellor who most people wouldn't trust to run the finances of a corner shop without fiddling the till.

Not that the other mainstream parties are wonderful, but they do have a massive advantage being compared with Ed Miliband and Ed Balls. Apart from the Lib Dems of course, who are pretty much a joke in bad taste.

In reply to stroppygob:

I kind of agree, the Tory party appeal to those working class people who actually want to better themselves, they know their place in the grand scheme of things but they aim to actually do something about it and get on in the world.


The Labour party claim to represent the working class but I think their main target audience these days is the "don't want to working class" Those who either don't work or do but have no ambition, didn't bother trying at school and won't get far past minimum wage. They keep trying to bribe them with benefits and the feel good factor of seeing "the rich" penalised. They don't realise that it's in Labours interest to keep the poor, poor otherwise they'd lose their core vote.

In reply to Simon4:

The other mainstream partiesother than the Lib Dems?? who is this BNP, UKIP, Greens

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

I take it you subscribe to the daily mail

In reply to Lord_ash2000:

the "don't want to working class" Those who either don't work or do but have no ambition

You show a fundamental lack of understanding of what working class might be. Ambition is not required, some of the hardest working, skilled and competent guys I have worked with are happy to stay at that level, they are good at their job and expect a decent wage for it they have no "ambition" to be a manager or the CEO or be millionares. They wish to work a reasonable number of hours for a decent wage and are happy enough to pay enough tax to ensure that they and their family have access to education and the NHS.
A university education is not required for many of the essential skilled and semi skilled trades that are required in a modern society, studing classics at oxbridge does not make you more deserving of a higher wage than studying post education vocational training.

In reply to Simon4:


Is that as opposed to the sneering, patronising, self-admiring Chipping Camden set and career politicians that make up the modern Conservative party?

In reply to jethro kiernan:
You seem to be the one making assumptions. No one is suggesting being a CEO or having Classics degree are the only signs of ambition. I'd imagine most of the skilled tradesmen you mention are at least as ambitious and capable. The question is why would someone such as that vote for Labour, or Tory, or anyone else? I'd have thought there is a good case that they would "naturally" vote Tory. - business friendly, lower taxes, non-intrusive. Rather than Labour - intrusive, higher taxes, often not interested or supportive of small businesses.

In reply to stroppygob:

Natural party for 5 - 10 % of the population maximum. The rest of their voters are delusional. Got to hand it to them for doing such a great job of divide and conquer and spreading the false consciousness thats gets the voted in again and again.

Working class tories are victims. I feel sorry for them.

D

In reply to MG:


That could come straight out of Central Office, whether it is true is extremely debatable.

In reply to MG:

The majority of people are not interested in setting up business, I dont disagree that small bussinesses shouldnt be encouraged but not at the expense of the people's quality of life such as q living wage and protection under the law, but the F*(&k up that is modern uk banking is not helping small bussinesses, our taxes are being used to subsidise multinational companies who wont pay people a living wage and then we turn on these people and say they cant be bothered they lack ambition. devide and conquer and the only winners are at the top

In reply to Lord_ash2000:


>The Labour party claim to represent the working class but I think their >main target audience these days is the "don't want to working class" Those
>who either don't work or do but have no ambition, didn't bother trying at >school and won't get far past minimum wage. They keep trying to bribe them >with benefits and the feel good factor of seeing "the rich" penalised. >They don't realise that it's in Labours interest to keep the poor, poor >otherwise they'd lose their core vote.

These people don't vote.




The Labour party are not interested in the poor, they are however interested in the votes of people who drink expensive lattes and worry about the poor, and work in soft jobs for NGOs that do nothing for the poor. The last labour government was a tory one. Authoritarian, dismissive of public opinion and totes whatevs to have the economy raped by the banks.




D

In reply to Dauphin:

What a load of crap.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


Al may not be their official spokesman, but very similar attitudes were expressed in the labour manifesto for our local council elections - at least to the extent of believing that it was necessary to do things to people, because they aren't capable of doing things for themselves. Which may occasionally be true, but not, in my opinion, to the extent parts of the Labour Party appear to believe.

I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I'm afraid I've never voted Tory in my life. It's only marginally more likely than me voting UKIP.

In reply to Al Evans:

I'm sorry fella. I have a lot of respect for you but your opinion and hopes for the labour party of 2014 belong to 1974. Tony Blair wasn't a socialist, Brown maybe but he got lost in all that third way bollocks and was quite negligent with the banks as long as they let him build a few hospitals and schools. Oh yeah and Iraq. Imperialists are not socialists.

And the the circus clown they have leading the party now? God help us.

D

In reply to thread: I think a real problem for the Labour party is in its name. It harks bark to its origins as a force to counter the irresponsible mill, mine & factory owners of the Victorian era.
The principles of social responsibility, equality of opportunity and shared benefit of wealth and the bounty of enterprise are still relevant but might be better described by a different term. Perhaps the term Socialist is more appropriate to those principles and thats where my heart lies. However it is not always easy to identify the party that best embodies those beliefs.

In reply to Carolyn:


Nailed it.

In reply to Lord_ash2000:



It's this kind of complete misconception of how society works and what difference the party in power makes that convinces me there has to be a better way than democracy.

Why vote, if this is how elections are won and lost?

In reply to Lord_ash2000:



Thank you, my point exactly. Labour seems to be the domain of the "luvvies with causes" brigade these days, Labour has lost its working class/union roots, and appeals to the "middle class guilt" crowd now.

In reply to Jon Stewart:



What's your solution caller?

In reply to keith-ratcliffe:

It's called the Labour Party because it issues from the Labour movement, the Trade Union movement. In the 19th century they tried to use existing parties to advance their ideas but then realised that this wasn't working and they needed their own party, which they set up and called it the Labour Party. Until just the other day trade unions member automatically contributed to Labour through the subs they pay, this has just been changed, I think, I read about it quite recently.

Labour parties exist elsewhere but in most continental countries the equivalent left wing ideas are represented historical by Socialist parties or Social Democrat parties. The former split after WW1 into those who joined the Third International, the Communist movement, and Socialists who didn't.

IMO New Labour is now nearer the Social Democratic line than the old Labour Party, but the same can be said of many Socialist parties... all over the world the traditional left is in a bit of a pickle in fact, to use the appropriate technical term.

In reply to Dr.S at work:


I find despair works pretty well.

In reply to Simon4:

The Labour party are left-wing ? When did that happen ?

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Follow the money Bruce. Social Democracy parties were nobbled and infiltrated post ww2 to counter the threat to NATO, U.S. influenced liberal economic policy, nuclear weapons from the left wing across Europe.

D

In reply to jethro kiernan:



You missed his pint by miles, the people you describe are not part of the "don't want to working class", the people you describe are more likely to be working class tories.

In reply to stroppygob:


Yes.

Just who are the working class. I'm bored in a hotel waiting to fly back to the UK so I did some digging.

From census data of the 63 million about 15 million are under 18 and so not vote, and not really relevant to job market.

Then of the rest, 10 million are over 65.

BBC says 40 million working age, of which 2.5 million are unemployed and only 30 million employed. So 7.5 million "housewives"? Seems high, but anyway.

BBC great class survey split classes into 7 - probably 3 precariat, emergent service sector and traditional working class correspond with "working class". These are 48% of employed people - although this is where there is a fudge in the numbers. The BBC survey had 7 classes but all referenced the kind of employment, so it added to 100% but not clear where he unemployed or too wealthy to work would fit. Assuming this is only the 30 million employed the.

That means 15 million people are in lower paid or traditionally working class jobs.

Of course, it's all a load of bollocks anyway. In the last 10 years a both the top two parties have shown that they can let down the most vulnerable. And the lib dems never had the support to prove otherwise. Their apparent ease of compromising on tuition fees has diluted their credibility - even though they would claim the credit for raising the personal allowance.

So it would seem the choice if you're on a low income is vote for Labour and they might try to tax the wealthy - it won't do you any good but perhaps you'll feel vindicated because the papers will say the bankers are unhappy. Or vote Tory like it's some kind of lottery, where if you get lucky and are entrepreneurial enough you can setup a small business and do very well.

No potential government would get elected with the manifesto pledges needed to fix things. Pensioners will become an increasing cost, but their vote is bought with tax cuts.

Minimum wage should be a living wage, it's introduction gave the impression of an acceptable wage but it isn't. Why do you pay tax on minimum wage yet you can't claim tax breaks on child care vouchers if on min wage.

Why does NI contribution drop from 12 to 2 % when higher rate tax kicks in. Why not link a lower rate of NI with taking out private healthcare.

In reply to stroppygob:

My point is the "dont want to work class" is a construction of the daily maail type media and it is unfair of the over privleged polticians and media types taking potshots at the poor just because they have seen a few episodes of Jeremy Kyle. and no the peopel I have descrbed have mixed political veiws as highlighted by the fact they value education and health care unless you think the tories value these as well?

In reply to jethro kiernan:

Really, I never knew that both my sisters were; "construction of the daily maail type media", you learn something new every day.


It's unfair of anyone to take a potshot at someone who has watched Jeremy Kyle, haven't they suffered enough already?


What "people you have described"?

In reply to stroppygob:



Really, I never knew that both my sisters were; "construction of the daily maail type media", you learn something new every day.

Sorry you have issues with your sisters


It's unfair of anyone to take a potshot at someone who has watched Jeremy Kyle, haven't they suffered enough already?

Fair point



What "people you have described"?
The people I have worked with who come under the fairly traditional banner of working class

In reply to Philip:



Cheers for that!


I really think "the left" need to get over tuition fees. The LDs mistake was to make the promise: sending middle-class kids to go to university so they can smoke weed and get laid is not a good use of resources. With HE funded out of general taxation, the poor who don't go to university pay for the middle classes who do. Why should little Johnny whose mummy and daddy are lawyers get funded to follow in their footsteps?


While I don't vote Labour the fact is that they commissioned research into the impact of early years education and health and invested in it. It didn't solve everyone's problems but it was useful policy that had a positive impact.


But will you? Do the Tories actually have policies that allow entrepreneurs to flourish, or do they just manage to form that impression while they help out their mates in the corporations?


Indeed.


Interesting one. The MW policy is a mainly a sham, as it was set so low as not to have an impact; so low in fact that when an employer pays MW the govt do subsidise them with tax credits for the employee.


NI is just general taxation. The idea that this tax is for that service is just a bit of psychological gameplay.
!

In reply to jethro kiernan:


Yes, but we were not talking about them, we were talking about the non-working/underclass, who you claim are ""construction of the daily maail type media".

In reply to stroppygob:

Not motivated to go to work, but motivated enough to be politically savvy and get out of the scratcher and vote for the work shy friendly party. Do they exist? Do they exist in enough numbers to have any effect on voting? Labour don't really give a shit about them, the establishment right wing villify them. If they vote at all it would be ukip or BNP.

D