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Well the time has come for me to finally buy some cams after avoiding the huge cost for ages... not because I don't enjoy using my torque nuts or because I desperately need them, but at the end of the month I'll get my first big paycheque and thus it's only right to blow some of it on shiny climbing gear
After a bit of thought I would get some DMM Dragons (barely heavier than the Daemons) as I really love DMM stuff, they're light and like little features such as the extendable slings.
Being a cam virgin (owning them at least; used them plenty), I was thinking getting alternate sizes (say 5, 3, 1, 00), or would I be better with an overlapping group (say 5, 4, 3, 2)? I climb in Wales mostly, but this year I'll probably get to the Alps, Belgium, Germany and other places in the UK.
After a bit of thought I would get some DMM Dragons (barely heavier than the Daemons) as I really love DMM stuff, they're light and like little features such as the extendable slings.
Being a cam virgin (owning them at least; used them plenty), I was thinking getting alternate sizes (say 5, 3, 1, 00), or would I be better with an overlapping group (say 5, 4, 3, 2)? I climb in Wales mostly, but this year I'll probably get to the Alps, Belgium, Germany and other places in the UK.
In reply to crayefish:
Good choice with the Dragons. Start with green, red and gold/yellow, then supplement with blue and purple (though you're better off yet poorer with the expensive Totem Basic red than the purple Dragon as it fits narrower crevices).
Good choice with the Dragons. Start with green, red and gold/yellow, then supplement with blue and purple (though you're better off yet poorer with the expensive Totem Basic red than the purple Dragon as it fits narrower crevices).
In reply to BnB:
Agree with BnB really, especially with the totem basics. Wouldn't bother with dragons under purple/green. The larger totems are fantastic too, often find I take them instead of the dragons - they're bulky and don't have in built extenders though.
Agree with BnB really, especially with the totem basics. Wouldn't bother with dragons under purple/green. The larger totems are fantastic too, often find I take them instead of the dragons - they're bulky and don't have in built extenders though.
In reply to crayefish:
Regular totems are pretty sweet. I'd say they're the most advanced (and successful) design out there.
Indeed bulky on the rack due to the way they hang, though UKC doesn't seem to be all that into racking up double or triple sets of cams so I wouldn't really consider that much of a minus.
Regular totems are pretty sweet. I'd say they're the most advanced (and successful) design out there.
Indeed bulky on the rack due to the way they hang, though UKC doesn't seem to be all that into racking up double or triple sets of cams so I wouldn't really consider that much of a minus.
In reply to crayefish:
Totem basics are great (I have a blue/green/yellow/red) and they compliment something like a set of dragons or camalots well. If you were only getting 4 though i'd get a .5, .75, 1 and 2 (those are camalot sizes, dunno how dragon sizes work). After getting those i'd maybe get one bigger cam (a size 3) and then start filling in the sizes below .75 with a dedicated micro-cam, such as the totem basic.
It's maybe worth checking out the totem cams in larger sizes as well, as they seem to get good reviews. Camalots and dragons are really similar, for me it just came down to thumb loop vs extendable sling. Personally I prefer camalots as I find the thumb loop makes them quicker/easier to place when i'm pumped and I never really used the extendable slings on 4cu's much.
Totem basics are great (I have a blue/green/yellow/red) and they compliment something like a set of dragons or camalots well. If you were only getting 4 though i'd get a .5, .75, 1 and 2 (those are camalot sizes, dunno how dragon sizes work). After getting those i'd maybe get one bigger cam (a size 3) and then start filling in the sizes below .75 with a dedicated micro-cam, such as the totem basic.
It's maybe worth checking out the totem cams in larger sizes as well, as they seem to get good reviews. Camalots and dragons are really similar, for me it just came down to thumb loop vs extendable sling. Personally I prefer camalots as I find the thumb loop makes them quicker/easier to place when i'm pumped and I never really used the extendable slings on 4cu's much.
In reply to crayefish:
Hello, I own a full set of Dragons.
Firstly you want overlapping sizes. 2 sizes apart are very different and that would be frustrating.
I would start with...
2, 3, 4
Red and Green are most useful. Gold is good then mainly the smaller sizes.
You are fine to buy the Baby Dragons with these (0 and 00). They work really well and are designed differently from the rest. Very useful. So from the small blue to the largest blue are all great. I own the largest Silver one but I'm not recommending it. It's a well made unit but a niche piece you will use rarely. When going into the big to huge sizes, there can be some quite big weight differences between cams, so worth checking around first. I think the silver Dragon is on the weightier side of things, (dat double axel).
So red and green then work outwards, smaller and larger from there .
Hello, I own a full set of Dragons.
Firstly you want overlapping sizes. 2 sizes apart are very different and that would be frustrating.
I would start with...
2, 3, 4
Red and Green are most useful. Gold is good then mainly the smaller sizes.
You are fine to buy the Baby Dragons with these (0 and 00). They work really well and are designed differently from the rest. Very useful. So from the small blue to the largest blue are all great. I own the largest Silver one but I'm not recommending it. It's a well made unit but a niche piece you will use rarely. When going into the big to huge sizes, there can be some quite big weight differences between cams, so worth checking around first. I think the silver Dragon is on the weightier side of things, (dat double axel).
So red and green then work outwards, smaller and larger from there .
Post edited at 04:50
In reply to crayefish:
Also take a look at the Black Diamond X4's for the smaller sizes, as they are a very nicely designed and have much narrower heads than Dragons. I have both dragons and X4's and can recommend them both.
Purple, green, red and yellow will take you up most alpine rock climbs...
Also take a look at the Black Diamond X4's for the smaller sizes, as they are a very nicely designed and have much narrower heads than Dragons. I have both dragons and X4's and can recommend them both.
Purple, green, red and yellow will take you up most alpine rock climbs...
In reply to FreshSlate:
I disagree 2 sizes apart in dragons just overlap. If I'm taking a Minimal rack I always aim for 2 sizes apart in dragons / camalots. More overlapping cams is just wasting potential range. I would get gold, green and baby silver (baby silver - of course this could be replaced with an x4 or similar with a narrower head width, I'm happy enough with mine but will likely replace when dmm release their micro cams)
I disagree 2 sizes apart in dragons just overlap. If I'm taking a Minimal rack I always aim for 2 sizes apart in dragons / camalots. More overlapping cams is just wasting potential range. I would get gold, green and baby silver (baby silver - of course this could be replaced with an x4 or similar with a narrower head width, I'm happy enough with mine but will likely replace when dmm release their micro cams)
Post edited at 06:35
In reply to BnB:
Thanks for the advice everyone. Looks like starting with Dragon sizes 4-1 (or maybe 5-1 if I am feeling extravagent) would work well and then look at the Totems for smaller ones later on.
Never actually seen the Totems before... normally I hear people raving about the WC Zeros. So would people think the Totems are better then?
Also, I noticed their website says the camming angle is 16 degrees... much higher than others. Anyone know why? (mathematically it should reduce the holding power)
Also, what are the HY versions? Seem to have reduced range compared to adjacent sizes but doesn't say why.
http://www.totemcams.com/content/index.php?id=1&se=3&su=1307635863
Thanks for the advice everyone. Looks like starting with Dragon sizes 4-1 (or maybe 5-1 if I am feeling extravagent) would work well and then look at the Totems for smaller ones later on.
Never actually seen the Totems before... normally I hear people raving about the WC Zeros. So would people think the Totems are better then?
Also, I noticed their website says the camming angle is 16 degrees... much higher than others. Anyone know why? (mathematically it should reduce the holding power)
Also, what are the HY versions? Seem to have reduced range compared to adjacent sizes but doesn't say why.
http://www.totemcams.com/content/index.php?id=1&se=3&su=1307635863
In reply to crayefish:
I don't like the zeros the stem is too flexible to work them in to awkward placements, I find with micro cams you do need to overcam them a bit quite often to get all the lobes engaged and you need to work them past obstructions sometimes.
Also the trigger wires are unrepairable both in the field and by WC (atleast my size 2 was) and fragile. When I sent my hardly used size 2 zero back to WC they offered me a new cam for £25 which I considered a poor deal given the usage.
Whether true or not BD claim that having a stem felxible all the way to the axle can work against marginal placements where you can't get the cam orientated to the direction of the fall such as shallow vertical cracks - as without a lever the force on the cam is nearly right angles to the dirn of force needed to properly engage the cams (I'm not googling this again in case any posters question this its all on the BD site).
I don't like the zeros the stem is too flexible to work them in to awkward placements, I find with micro cams you do need to overcam them a bit quite often to get all the lobes engaged and you need to work them past obstructions sometimes.
Also the trigger wires are unrepairable both in the field and by WC (atleast my size 2 was) and fragile. When I sent my hardly used size 2 zero back to WC they offered me a new cam for £25 which I considered a poor deal given the usage.
Whether true or not BD claim that having a stem felxible all the way to the axle can work against marginal placements where you can't get the cam orientated to the direction of the fall such as shallow vertical cracks - as without a lever the force on the cam is nearly right angles to the dirn of force needed to properly engage the cams (I'm not googling this again in case any posters question this its all on the BD site).
Post edited at 11:24
In reply to crayefish:
With the demise of the original Alien (great design, questionable quality assurance) my choice amongst small cams is the Totem Basic. I've started using the original - non-basic - Totem cams recently and their quality and workmanship is excellent. I wish Totem made larger gold and blue dragon/camalot sizes.
Basics appear similarly well made. They retain most of the design advantages of the original Aliens, the key one being the 'grippy' softer alloy on the lobes which allows the greater cam angle. There are a few sensible updates: slightly different sizes so the overlaps between models are more consistent, slightly narrower heads in the smallest sizes, better trigger bars, more secure-looking attachment of the cam lobes to the axle, pseudo cam-stops. They are also available as offsets (the HY version).
They are made in the Basque country by a company run by climbers.
With the demise of the original Alien (great design, questionable quality assurance) my choice amongst small cams is the Totem Basic. I've started using the original - non-basic - Totem cams recently and their quality and workmanship is excellent. I wish Totem made larger gold and blue dragon/camalot sizes.
Basics appear similarly well made. They retain most of the design advantages of the original Aliens, the key one being the 'grippy' softer alloy on the lobes which allows the greater cam angle. There are a few sensible updates: slightly different sizes so the overlaps between models are more consistent, slightly narrower heads in the smallest sizes, better trigger bars, more secure-looking attachment of the cam lobes to the axle, pseudo cam-stops. They are also available as offsets (the HY version).
They are made in the Basque country by a company run by climbers.
In reply to crayefish:
On the topic of regular totem cams, see the comments after the review:
http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Climbing-Cams-Reviews/Totem-Cam
(Yeah...I bought a whole set Much better than C4s in my opinion. And two lobe placements! (That hold! (Well, bodyweight anyway))
On the topic of regular totem cams, see the comments after the review:
http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Climbing-Cams-Reviews/Totem-Cam
(Yeah...I bought a whole set Much better than C4s in my opinion. And two lobe placements! (That hold! (Well, bodyweight anyway))
In reply to crayefish:
I really like my DMM 4CUs. They are on offer at Joe Brown`s three for £88.50. I'd start with these if I were you.
Ian
I really like my DMM 4CUs. They are on offer at Joe Brown`s three for £88.50. I'd start with these if I were you.
Ian
In reply to crayefish:
Careful now!
I bought my first ever cam last year. Never used it in anger yet, but i still feel dirty.
No Amount of Hand Washing will Remove the stain on your soul
Ps... i went for a Camalot.
Careful now!
I bought my first ever cam last year. Never used it in anger yet, but i still feel dirty.
No Amount of Hand Washing will Remove the stain on your soul
Ps... i went for a Camalot.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Are DMM releasing micro cams? Would be very interested if they are, x4s are tempting me at the moment... (the 2 smallest)
Anyhow, in what situations are you talking about using a 'minimal rack'?
I assume this is where we differ, I am more talking about cragging, where I would hate to bring a green and a gold cam up with me. It would always be green and red (mostly because they are the most useful sizes I find). I would definitely not put a gold cam where a green cam would fit well, or visa versa, the green would be too tipped out or the gold would be asking for the second to get it stuck.
Now if we're talking about a very specialised situation then I wouldn't disagree. However for the most part, dragons do not nearly overlap as much as other cams (4cu's etc) and therefore I would buy sizes next to eachother.
> I disagree 2 sizes apart in dragons just overlap. If I'm taking a Minimal rack I always aim for 2 sizes apart in dragons / camalots. More overlapping cams is just wasting potential range. I would get gold, green and baby silver (baby silver - of course this could be replaced with an x4 or similar with a narrower head width, I'm happy enough with mine but will likely replace when dmm release their micro cams)
Are DMM releasing micro cams? Would be very interested if they are, x4s are tempting me at the moment... (the 2 smallest)
Anyhow, in what situations are you talking about using a 'minimal rack'?
I assume this is where we differ, I am more talking about cragging, where I would hate to bring a green and a gold cam up with me. It would always be green and red (mostly because they are the most useful sizes I find). I would definitely not put a gold cam where a green cam would fit well, or visa versa, the green would be too tipped out or the gold would be asking for the second to get it stuck.
Now if we're talking about a very specialised situation then I wouldn't disagree. However for the most part, dragons do not nearly overlap as much as other cams (4cu's etc) and therefore I would buy sizes next to eachother.
Post edited at 18:06
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Thanks for the feedback on that. As someone who has only ever borrowed cams (and rarely used them) it's good to hear this stuff before I have to find out for myself the hard way!
And thanks Duncan for the explanation on the cam angle and HY versions... I can see that in the pics now you have mentioned it.
I doubt I'll get any micro cams just yet... but always good to know in advance.
Thanks for the feedback on that. As someone who has only ever borrowed cams (and rarely used them) it's good to hear this stuff before I have to find out for myself the hard way!
And thanks Duncan for the explanation on the cam angle and HY versions... I can see that in the pics now you have mentioned it.
I doubt I'll get any micro cams just yet... but always good to know in advance.
In reply to Choss:
Yeah I might have to scrub a lot after using it! While I do love complex shiny hardwear, I also like old school tech. Nothing beats the joy of getting a complex camming hex in!
Though I do recall a time on a 45m slab where I the highest piece of gear was a hex in a pocket at around 20-25m (it was that bare and crumbly). When one of my seconds came up (having survived the large boulder I launched down at them!) he told me the hex had come out :S
> Careful now!
> I bought my first ever cam last year. Never used it in anger yet, but i still feel dirty.
> No Amount of Hand Washing will Remove the stain on your soul
> Ps... i went for a Camalot.
Yeah I might have to scrub a lot after using it! While I do love complex shiny hardwear, I also like old school tech. Nothing beats the joy of getting a complex camming hex in!
Though I do recall a time on a 45m slab where I the highest piece of gear was a hex in a pocket at around 20-25m (it was that bare and crumbly). When one of my seconds came up (having survived the large boulder I launched down at them!) he told me the hex had come out :S
In reply to crayefish:
There's the occasion that a hex is better. Okay most climbers, once they have bought cams that's all they will use (single pitch rock climbing). For speed of use, more placement options mainly and climbing rock types that do not like hexes.
A few positives of hexes however:
1) Better in flakes and other suspect rock placements as they generate less force onto the rock surrounding the placement
2) They are cheaper, thus making great bail gear on multipitch routes.
3) They are lighter (The blue torque nut weighs slightly less than the gold cam and has a much longer sling)
4) You can plug the belays with them and save your cams for the next pitch.
5) They have no moving parts, they are better for ice climbing and certain limestone routes because unlike a cam, they cannot slip, they are either wider than the bottom of the crack or they are not.
6) In some niche placements they are more confidence inspiring (although now cams are stronger when used as a chock these days they are better than they once were but hexes are still more 'bomber'). Yesterday I climbed a route with a pocket (or little cave really) that once the cam goes in it expands completely, a hex was a better option here.
7) Do not 'walk', they are good for anchors for this reason, you are happier leaving them unattended thus work well for top roping etc.
Generally cams have a lot more plug in and go potential, but hexes still have their place on multipitch/Iceclimbing/some niche situations.
> Yeah I might have to scrub a lot after using it! While I do love complex shiny hardwear, I also like old school tech. Nothing beats the joy of getting a complex camming hex in!
> Though I do recall a time on a 45m slab where I the highest piece of gear was a hex in a pocket at around 20-25m (it was that bare and crumbly). When one of my seconds came up (having survived the large boulder I launched down at them!) he told me the hex had come out :S
There's the occasion that a hex is better. Okay most climbers, once they have bought cams that's all they will use (single pitch rock climbing). For speed of use, more placement options mainly and climbing rock types that do not like hexes.
A few positives of hexes however:
1) Better in flakes and other suspect rock placements as they generate less force onto the rock surrounding the placement
2) They are cheaper, thus making great bail gear on multipitch routes.
3) They are lighter (The blue torque nut weighs slightly less than the gold cam and has a much longer sling)
4) You can plug the belays with them and save your cams for the next pitch.
5) They have no moving parts, they are better for ice climbing and certain limestone routes because unlike a cam, they cannot slip, they are either wider than the bottom of the crack or they are not.
6) In some niche placements they are more confidence inspiring (although now cams are stronger when used as a chock these days they are better than they once were but hexes are still more 'bomber'). Yesterday I climbed a route with a pocket (or little cave really) that once the cam goes in it expands completely, a hex was a better option here.
7) Do not 'walk', they are good for anchors for this reason, you are happier leaving them unattended thus work well for top roping etc.
Generally cams have a lot more plug in and go potential, but hexes still have their place on multipitch/Iceclimbing/some niche situations.
Post edited at 19:47
In reply to crayefish:
Before buying, if cost is a consideration, it's worth thinking about replacement in the future.
ie. I used to buy expensive cams. I bought a full set. I lost two within a week of each other (one overcammed and the other dropped). I now buy DMM 4CUs...
Before buying, if cost is a consideration, it's worth thinking about replacement in the future.
ie. I used to buy expensive cams. I bought a full set. I lost two within a week of each other (one overcammed and the other dropped). I now buy DMM 4CUs...
In reply to FreshSlate:
Totally agree. Hexes are so versatile (especially in winter) and I love them as such. Not much that can go wrong with them either!
I've never been impressed by the speed and ease of cams as I really like the engineering of a placement rather than the stuff and forget thing, but appreciate that to improve my trad I'll need harder routes than VS (and climb more! lol) and thus speed of placement is more important.
Totally agree. Hexes are so versatile (especially in winter) and I love them as such. Not much that can go wrong with them either!
I've never been impressed by the speed and ease of cams as I really like the engineering of a placement rather than the stuff and forget thing, but appreciate that to improve my trad I'll need harder routes than VS (and climb more! lol) and thus speed of placement is more important.
In reply to Merlin:
Nah
> Before buying, if cost is a consideration, it's worth thinking about replacement in the future.
Nah
In reply to crayefish:
The silver dragon isn't a micro cam in my book, its a pretty useful size. You could ofcourse get purple red blue, but the blue cam is less useful and I think the green cam is the most used cam on my rack.
The silver dragon isn't a micro cam in my book, its a pretty useful size. You could ofcourse get purple red blue, but the blue cam is less useful and I think the green cam is the most used cam on my rack.
In reply to FreshSlate:
Very balanced post on this controversial topic that usually generates vicious conflict.
I think it's important to appreciate the greatest downside of hexes which you omit from your analysis, however: the stupid jingly-jangly noise they make - I hate it, it's ridiculous and it's infuriating. Not to mention the pain and misery of removing them on second.
Very balanced post on this controversial topic that usually generates vicious conflict.
I think it's important to appreciate the greatest downside of hexes which you omit from your analysis, however: the stupid jingly-jangly noise they make - I hate it, it's ridiculous and it's infuriating. Not to mention the pain and misery of removing them on second.
Post edited at 00:20
In reply to FreshSlate:
I have heard that DMM have micro cams in development but I don't think there is any official release date yet.
My minimal rack would be used for all sorts of things but a good example would be mountain routes around VDiff in difficulty, mixed routes in non iced up cracks conditions or partially bolted routes within my ability.
"I assume this is where we differ, I am more talking about cragging, where I would hate to bring a green and a gold cam up with me. It would always be green and red (mostly because they are the most useful sizes I find). I would definitely not put a gold cam where a green cam would fit well, or visa versa, the green would be too tipped out or the gold would be asking for the second to get it stuck."
By your reckoning the OP should get 3 green dragons as I think across all rock types these are the most commonly placed #
Neither approach is really correct, ideally he needs a full set. I would also say neither approach would really mean he can grade push or climb routes that are likely to be fairly cam heavy either. My approach at least means if he is climbing routes he is generally happy to protect passively if he gets a nasty surprise and finds an essential cam placement he is more likely to have one that fits your approach is more likely to work better when the OP anticipates placing multiple essential cams on a route.
As mentioned every other size of dragon cams do slightly overlap here's the stats:
http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Camming-Devic...
> "Are DMM releasing micro cams? Would be very interested if they are, x4s are tempting me at the moment... (the 2 smallest)"
I have heard that DMM have micro cams in development but I don't think there is any official release date yet.
> "Anyhow, in what situations are you talking about using a 'minimal rack'?"
My minimal rack would be used for all sorts of things but a good example would be mountain routes around VDiff in difficulty, mixed routes in non iced up cracks conditions or partially bolted routes within my ability.
"I assume this is where we differ, I am more talking about cragging, where I would hate to bring a green and a gold cam up with me. It would always be green and red (mostly because they are the most useful sizes I find). I would definitely not put a gold cam where a green cam would fit well, or visa versa, the green would be too tipped out or the gold would be asking for the second to get it stuck."
By your reckoning the OP should get 3 green dragons as I think across all rock types these are the most commonly placed #
Neither approach is really correct, ideally he needs a full set. I would also say neither approach would really mean he can grade push or climb routes that are likely to be fairly cam heavy either. My approach at least means if he is climbing routes he is generally happy to protect passively if he gets a nasty surprise and finds an essential cam placement he is more likely to have one that fits your approach is more likely to work better when the OP anticipates placing multiple essential cams on a route.
> "Now if we're talking about a very specialised situation then I wouldn't disagree. However for the most part, dragons do not nearly overlap as much as other cams (4cu's etc) and therefore I would buy sizes next to eachother."
As mentioned every other size of dragon cams do slightly overlap here's the stats:
http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Camming-Devic...
Post edited at 00:20
In reply to CurlyStevo:
If I were to run an analysis of most used cams, I would weigh up the chances of a route making use of a red and a green versus a route taking two green cams (in useful places of course). So even if green is the most commonly placed it is at least plausible that I could recommend the green and a different sized cam.
I don't mind this logic, you may be covering more mm by having cams that do not overlap, but you would also cover more mm by sticking to the largest sizes which neither of us would advise.
I know about the ranges but if you remember I did say: "I would definitely not put a gold cam where a green cam would fit well, or visa versa, the green would be too tipped out or the gold would be asking for the second to get it stuck."
Green size range: 24-41mm
Gold size range: 38-64mm
Now it is true that there is a 3mm overlap between those figures. However, this figure is the measurement of the cam fully opened and the cam fully shut. You would place a cam in neither of these positions. The usable range is smaller and thus they do not overlap in practice. Metolius think for a 27.9-43.1mm cam, the actual usable range is 28.1-39.1
Usable range of the equivalent Metolius cams:
Black Max range: 27.9-43.1
Light blue Max range: 40.1-63.5
Black usable range: 28.1-39.1
Light blue usable range: 40.3-57.4
Just as with the DMM dragons there is an overlap of 3mm between the max ranges of these metolius cams but in practice there is no overlap and a 1mm gap.
In the 4cu range the 1 and the 1.5 overlap by 6mm (max range), the 1.25 and the 1.75 overlap by 8mm, and the 1.5 to 2.5 10mm. This is why one is commonly advised to buy every other size. The margins aren't nearly as high with the dragons and you end up with uncovered sizes. With the larger dragons: silver + gold and blue + red, they do not overlap at all (max range).
> By your reckoning the OP should get 3 green dragons as I think across all rock types these are the most commonly placed
If I were to run an analysis of most used cams, I would weigh up the chances of a route making use of a red and a green versus a route taking two green cams (in useful places of course). So even if green is the most commonly placed it is at least plausible that I could recommend the green and a different sized cam.
> Neither approach is really correct, ideally he needs a full set. I would also say neither approach would really mean he can grade push or climb routes that are likely to be fairly cam heavy either. My approach at least means if he is climbing routes he is generally happy to protect passively if he gets a nasty surprise and finds an essential cam placement he is more likely to have one that fits your approach is more likely to work better when the OP anticipates placing multiple essential cams on a route.
I don't mind this logic, you may be covering more mm by having cams that do not overlap, but you would also cover more mm by sticking to the largest sizes which neither of us would advise.
> As mentioned every other size of dragon cams do slightly overlap here's the stats:
I know about the ranges but if you remember I did say: "I would definitely not put a gold cam where a green cam would fit well, or visa versa, the green would be too tipped out or the gold would be asking for the second to get it stuck."
Green size range: 24-41mm
Gold size range: 38-64mm
Now it is true that there is a 3mm overlap between those figures. However, this figure is the measurement of the cam fully opened and the cam fully shut. You would place a cam in neither of these positions. The usable range is smaller and thus they do not overlap in practice. Metolius think for a 27.9-43.1mm cam, the actual usable range is 28.1-39.1
Usable range of the equivalent Metolius cams:
Black Max range: 27.9-43.1
Light blue Max range: 40.1-63.5
Black usable range: 28.1-39.1
Light blue usable range: 40.3-57.4
Just as with the DMM dragons there is an overlap of 3mm between the max ranges of these metolius cams but in practice there is no overlap and a 1mm gap.
In the 4cu range the 1 and the 1.5 overlap by 6mm (max range), the 1.25 and the 1.75 overlap by 8mm, and the 1.5 to 2.5 10mm. This is why one is commonly advised to buy every other size. The margins aren't nearly as high with the dragons and you end up with uncovered sizes. With the larger dragons: silver + gold and blue + red, they do not overlap at all (max range).
Post edited at 01:59
In reply to FreshSlate:
I've used the cams I suggested as part of a light rack and not had problems getting cams in to cracks within the range of silver to gold.
"If I were to run an analysis of most used cams, I would weigh up the chances of a route making use of a red and a green versus a route taking two green cams (in useful places of course). So even if green is the most commonly placed it is at least plausible that I could recommend the green and a different sized cam"
Did you miss the smiley or what? that was a joke regarding buying three green cams. However IMO dragons and camalots are a lot harder to overcam as the lobe tips on all but the smallest sizes can not touch both the opposing walls and even then they don't extend out to a rounded point on the opposing side in the same way normal cams do (when overcammed).
I believe the choice is somewhat arbitrary between our two suggestions, however I will further qualify my reasoning. You say the 3mm of cam overlap between the silver and green dragons does not represent useable overlap of the cams. I disagree. As mentioned dragons and camalots are much harder to overcam than tradtional cams so if needed they can be pretty much retracted to the full extent and placed. Also cracks tend not to be 100% uniform so there is often atleast a few more mm of variation in the crack to allow cams which are not the 'ideal' size to be placed. Finally the 3mm of overlap of the green and silver dragon cams (and indeed between the green and gold) does just allow them to be placed in the same width cracks, although I will concede neither placement is ideal but as mentioned the natural variation you get in most cracks will improve both these placements and they are both just functional. I have taken a photo to illustrate. The undercammed silver cam would need extending a lot to make sure rope movement does not effect the placement in anyway and the green would be hard to remove but most likely you would get it out (I have only ever lost one cam due to being stuck in 15 years of fairly active trad leading)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/9209450@N05/sets/72157643781408914/
Stevo
I've used the cams I suggested as part of a light rack and not had problems getting cams in to cracks within the range of silver to gold.
"If I were to run an analysis of most used cams, I would weigh up the chances of a route making use of a red and a green versus a route taking two green cams (in useful places of course). So even if green is the most commonly placed it is at least plausible that I could recommend the green and a different sized cam"
Did you miss the smiley or what? that was a joke regarding buying three green cams. However IMO dragons and camalots are a lot harder to overcam as the lobe tips on all but the smallest sizes can not touch both the opposing walls and even then they don't extend out to a rounded point on the opposing side in the same way normal cams do (when overcammed).
I believe the choice is somewhat arbitrary between our two suggestions, however I will further qualify my reasoning. You say the 3mm of cam overlap between the silver and green dragons does not represent useable overlap of the cams. I disagree. As mentioned dragons and camalots are much harder to overcam than tradtional cams so if needed they can be pretty much retracted to the full extent and placed. Also cracks tend not to be 100% uniform so there is often atleast a few more mm of variation in the crack to allow cams which are not the 'ideal' size to be placed. Finally the 3mm of overlap of the green and silver dragon cams (and indeed between the green and gold) does just allow them to be placed in the same width cracks, although I will concede neither placement is ideal but as mentioned the natural variation you get in most cracks will improve both these placements and they are both just functional. I have taken a photo to illustrate. The undercammed silver cam would need extending a lot to make sure rope movement does not effect the placement in anyway and the green would be hard to remove but most likely you would get it out (I have only ever lost one cam due to being stuck in 15 years of fairly active trad leading)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/9209450@N05/sets/72157643781408914/
Stevo
In reply to crayefish:
If I were you I would start with Dragons or Camalots in purple, green, red and gold.
Joe Brown do a great deal on Dragon cams where they work out at £40 each if you buy 4 or more. http://www.joe-brown.com/custombuilder.aspx?id=15549
If you climb predominately on Gritstone or Granite I would buy a big blue cam next. A DMM Demon cam is cheaper and lighter than a Dragon and has almost exactly the same range. http://needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Camming-Devices/S...
If you climb more often on mountain rock I would get some smaller cams next instead. Whilst there is nothing wrong with small (blue and grey) Dragons I would personally buy Totem Basics as they are much more flexible and the softer alloy they are made from means they are more likely to hold in a marginal placement. They yellow and green ones are ace. The blue one is worth getting when you start leading harder things. http://needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Camming-Devices/M...
A couple of Hexes are probably worth getting too. I'd get a red and a gold. Don't bother with the whole set though.
HTH
If I were you I would start with Dragons or Camalots in purple, green, red and gold.
Joe Brown do a great deal on Dragon cams where they work out at £40 each if you buy 4 or more. http://www.joe-brown.com/custombuilder.aspx?id=15549
If you climb predominately on Gritstone or Granite I would buy a big blue cam next. A DMM Demon cam is cheaper and lighter than a Dragon and has almost exactly the same range. http://needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Camming-Devices/S...
If you climb more often on mountain rock I would get some smaller cams next instead. Whilst there is nothing wrong with small (blue and grey) Dragons I would personally buy Totem Basics as they are much more flexible and the softer alloy they are made from means they are more likely to hold in a marginal placement. They yellow and green ones are ace. The blue one is worth getting when you start leading harder things. http://needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Camming-Devices/M...
A couple of Hexes are probably worth getting too. I'd get a red and a gold. Don't bother with the whole set though.
HTH
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
Pretty much what others have said. Thanks.
Lol... I have two sets of hexes and use them regularly! See my post (Though usually only take 1 set of torque nuts unless on a big multi-pitch climb with long/doubled pitches).
Pretty much what others have said. Thanks.
Lol... I have two sets of hexes and use them regularly! See my post (Though usually only take 1 set of torque nuts unless on a big multi-pitch climb with long/doubled pitches).
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
Or 3: http://www.joe-brown.com/custombuilder.aspx?id=15511
> Joe Brown do a great deal on Dragon cams where they work out at £40 each if you buy 4 or more. http://www.joe-brown.com/custombuilder.aspx?id=15549
Or 3: http://www.joe-brown.com/custombuilder.aspx?id=15511
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Welsh Aliens? They could call them 'English'.
> I have heard that DMM have micro cams in development but I don't think there is any official release date yet.
Welsh Aliens? They could call them 'English'.
In reply to FreshSlate:
I love hexes and place them almost all the time. I prefer the ones on cord. With a set of small wired DMM Wallnuts there's virtually no crack that can't be protected. Last week in Red Rock my regular climbing pal and I climbed with new friends who were not into hexes at all. But by the end of the week they were gleefully showing off their bomber hex placements. No doubt that cams are the pieces of choice for parallel and flaring cracks, but first I look for those sweet spots for the old but good hexes.
On some pitches we placed only hexes.
"however: the stupid jingly-jangly noise they make - I hate it," The clanging sound simply attracts like-minded souls, who are overjoyed to find their six-sided biased brethren to talk about the good ol' days.
A couple more uses for hexes:
8) Remove the cord and they can be used as emergency abseil or belay devices by pulling the climbing rope through the tube and clipping to a krab.
9) The cord can be used as a sling extension. Just pull up the top part and clip in both ends.
I love hexes and place them almost all the time. I prefer the ones on cord. With a set of small wired DMM Wallnuts there's virtually no crack that can't be protected. Last week in Red Rock my regular climbing pal and I climbed with new friends who were not into hexes at all. But by the end of the week they were gleefully showing off their bomber hex placements. No doubt that cams are the pieces of choice for parallel and flaring cracks, but first I look for those sweet spots for the old but good hexes.
On some pitches we placed only hexes.
"however: the stupid jingly-jangly noise they make - I hate it," The clanging sound simply attracts like-minded souls, who are overjoyed to find their six-sided biased brethren to talk about the good ol' days.
A couple more uses for hexes:
8) Remove the cord and they can be used as emergency abseil or belay devices by pulling the climbing rope through the tube and clipping to a krab.
9) The cord can be used as a sling extension. Just pull up the top part and clip in both ends.
In reply to loose overhang:
Nice idea! But wouldn't you rather just use an Italian hitch rather than destroy a nice torque nut?
> 8) Remove the cord and they can be used as emergency abseil or belay devices by pulling the climbing rope through the tube and clipping to a krab.
Nice idea! But wouldn't you rather just use an Italian hitch rather than destroy a nice torque nut?
> I've used the cams I suggested as part of a light rack and not had problems getting cams in to cracks within the range of silver to gold.
Yeah I don't doubt that you have no problem. As I said, there might be some logic in having sizes that don't overlap in order to maximise range.> IMO dragons and camalots are a lot harder to overcam as the lobe tips on all but the smallest sizes can not touch both the opposing walls and even then they don't extend out to a rounded point on the opposing side in the same way normal cams do (when overcammed).
It's not the minimum size where the range is lost. Metolius gave a usable size with 0.2mm of the absolute minimum. The problem is placing the cam so it is not too tipped out.> Also cracks tend not to be 100% uniform so there is often atleast a few more mm of variation in the crack to allow cams which are not the 'ideal' size to be placed.
We're really talking about the same placement. You might indeed find a placement elsewhere for the silver if you have already used the green but that doesn't really tell us if they overlap. > Finally the 3mm of overlap of the green and silver dragon cams (and indeed between the green and gold) does just allow them to be placed in the same width cracks, although I will concede neither placement is ideal but as mentioned the natural variation you get in most cracks will improve both these placements and they are both just functional. I have taken a photo to illustrate. The undercammed silver cam would need extending a lot to make sure rope movement does not effect the placement in anyway and the green would be hard to remove but most likely you would get it out (I have only ever lost one cam due to being stuck in 15 years of fairly active trad leading)
Okay, I've taken a few pictures myself, that one is a little unclear but I'll submit some for your amusement .
In this case, I wouldn't be too happy about the second getting the gold one out and that green one is basically useless:
http://postimg.org/image/oi17gnyrb/
Again the green is rinsed and the silver doesn't even attempt to hold itself straight:
http://postimg.org/image/pnxefu9b1
In this picture, there is a gap of about 1mm above the red and it just freely moves, very far off it's usable range.
http://postimg.org/image/pc4a0w0e9
The large Silver didn't fit in a crack the gold was tipped out it so couldn't take a picture of that (not that this was ever in contention).
Basically, they don't overlap 2 sizes apart, at any size. I would not be happy with any of the placements in the pictures except the blue, but the red is just so far off that even if I got another mm out of the blue, it's just no where close. The purple and the red come probably the closest but you're still looking at a likely fixed red and a purple I wouldn't hang a small cat off.
Here are the direct sizes down for comparison and they are bang in the middle of their range vs the one at it's minimum range:
http://postimg.org/image/dm3fpnfbj/
http://postimg.org/image/esp67m1gr/
For cragging I would advise the same as TRip and buy the sizes sequentially, whether buying 3 or 4 units.
In reply to FreshSlate:
haha what a joke you've deliberately tipped the smaller cams a kilter in every pic and not camed the larger cam as small as it goes!
the blue cam and red cam don't really overlap as don't the large silver and gold but that obvious from the stats and weren't the cams I suggested getting.
I don't take issue with Trips suggestion, it's pretty much the same as mine except he has four cams and suggest getting the purple instead of the small silver. As I said the OP would be better getting a full set of cams asap if he intends to grade push and use them extensively for pro.
haha what a joke you've deliberately tipped the smaller cams a kilter in every pic and not camed the larger cam as small as it goes!
the blue cam and red cam don't really overlap as don't the large silver and gold but that obvious from the stats and weren't the cams I suggested getting.
I don't take issue with Trips suggestion, it's pretty much the same as mine except he has four cams and suggest getting the purple instead of the small silver. As I said the OP would be better getting a full set of cams asap if he intends to grade push and use them extensively for pro.
Post edited at 19:23
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I haven't done anything of the sort! The smaller cams fell down because they're too small for the gap, do you want me to hold them up?
For some discussion on usable cam ranges:
http://clydesoles.com/Front/Camssize.html
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/usable-cam-range/107820096
> haha what a joke you've deliberately tipped the smaller cams a kilter in every pic and not camed tho larger cam as small as it goes!
> the blue cam and red cam don't really overlap as don't the large silver and gold but that obvious from the stats and weren't the cams I suggested getting.
I haven't done anything of the sort! The smaller cams fell down because they're too small for the gap, do you want me to hold them up?
For some discussion on usable cam ranges:
http://clydesoles.com/Front/Camssize.html
http://www.mountainproject.com/v/usable-cam-range/107820096
In reply to crayefish:
P.S The green cam is upright, and stayed in place but I bet you wouldn't be falling on that!
Were it real rock most of those large cam placements would be fixed, you can't move the rock out of the way like you can your wardrobe.
P.S The green cam is upright, and stayed in place but I bet you wouldn't be falling on that!
Were it real rock most of those large cam placements would be fixed, you can't move the rock out of the way like you can your wardrobe.
Post edited at 19:30
In reply to FreshSlate:
green cam is a kilter
http://postimg.org/image/oi17gnyrb/
silver cam is a kilter
http://postimg.org/image/pnxefu9b1
you also haven't fully retracted the larger cams (otherwise how do you explain my picture!)
anyway as mentioned cracks are very rarely completely uniform and all you need a couple less mm to get normal placements out of the smaller cams.
> I haven't done anything of the sort! The smaller cams fell down because they're too small for the gap, do you want me to hold them up?
> For some discussion on usable cam ranges:
green cam is a kilter
http://postimg.org/image/oi17gnyrb/
silver cam is a kilter
http://postimg.org/image/pnxefu9b1
you also haven't fully retracted the larger cams (otherwise how do you explain my picture!)
anyway as mentioned cracks are very rarely completely uniform and all you need a couple less mm to get normal placements out of the smaller cams.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Yes the Silver is a kilter. Because it is actually too small of the gap. Put a cam in a horizontal that is too big for it and tell me what it does?
The green is barely in, it's possibly 1mm off, it's still tipped out to hell any way it's orientated.
Can't see what you've done in your picture because you've obscurred one cam with the other. However, if I were to guess you have pushed the wardrobe onto the cam the moved the wardrobe back to get it out again
Yes the Silver is a kilter. Because it is actually too small of the gap. Put a cam in a horizontal that is too big for it and tell me what it does?
The green is barely in, it's possibly 1mm off, it's still tipped out to hell any way it's orientated.
Can't see what you've done in your picture because you've obscurred one cam with the other. However, if I were to guess you have pushed the wardrobe onto the cam the moved the wardrobe back to get it out again
Post edited at 19:52
In reply to FreshSlate:
this is the reality of the situation and its the same for gold and green, a fully over cammed larger dragon in green or gold just allows a placement in the same crack of the cam two sizes down
https://www.flickr.com/photos/9209450@N05/sets/72157643781408914/
this is the reality of the situation and its the same for gold and green, a fully over cammed larger dragon in green or gold just allows a placement in the same crack of the cam two sizes down
https://www.flickr.com/photos/9209450@N05/sets/72157643781408914/
Post edited at 19:34
In reply to CurlyStevo:
That pictures worse than mine, can't even see the green cam, for what reason I don't know. That cam does not look retrievable, lucky those wardrobes are quite easy to move right?
So going off your picture, the green cam is immovable, and the silver cam is extremely precarious and looks like it would rip as is. You show me yourself taking a fall onto that sized cam, that tipped out and I'll give you a fiver to help out with the green cam you have lost.
> this is the reality of the situation and its the same for gold and green, a fully over cammed larger dragon in green or gold just allows a placement in the same crack of the cam two sizes down
That pictures worse than mine, can't even see the green cam, for what reason I don't know. That cam does not look retrievable, lucky those wardrobes are quite easy to move right?
So going off your picture, the green cam is immovable, and the silver cam is extremely precarious and looks like it would rip as is. You show me yourself taking a fall onto that sized cam, that tipped out and I'll give you a fiver to help out with the green cam you have lost.
Post edited at 19:54
In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:
> "If you climb predominately on Gritstone or Granite I would buy a big blue cam next. A DMM Demon cam is cheaper and lighter than a Dragon and has almost exactly the same range. http://needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Camming-Devices/Standard-Cams/Demon-Cam#.U..."
I don't buy the same range thing look at the stats:
http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Camming-Devic...
http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Camming-Devic...
the size 2 dragon is approx 20% to 40% larger expansion range than the 1.5 demon for example.
I don't buy the same range thing look at the stats:
http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Camming-Devic...
http://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Rock-Climbing-Equipment/Camming-Devic...
the size 2 dragon is approx 20% to 40% larger expansion range than the 1.5 demon for example.
In reply to FreshSlate:
they just overlap and with small irregularities in the crack you will often be able to place either.
they just overlap and with small irregularities in the crack you will often be able to place either.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
They do not overlap, perhaps there is a crack that narrows enough to fit both, but in the same width crack you have both poor and stuck gear.
They do not overlap, perhaps there is a crack that narrows enough to fit both, but in the same width crack you have both poor and stuck gear.
Post edited at 19:43
In reply to FreshSlate:
of course they overlap DMM's figures show that as does my picture (by 3mm) IMO 3mm overlap is just enough to get a placement on a cam form being fully opem.
of course they overlap DMM's figures show that as does my picture (by 3mm) IMO 3mm overlap is just enough to get a placement on a cam form being fully opem.
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I wouldn't trust a cam that is 3mm retracted to hold a fall. Nor would I trust my second to get a cam out that is placed in a crack that is exactly the same size as the crack itself.
Most people have been going on the assumption that a cam should be placed around 5-60% open. Now what you're suggesting is using the green cam 92.7% open.
> of course they overlap DMM's figures show that as does my picture (by 3mm) IMO 3mm overlap is just enough to get a placement on a cam form being fully opem.
I wouldn't trust a cam that is 3mm retracted to hold a fall. Nor would I trust my second to get a cam out that is placed in a crack that is exactly the same size as the crack itself.
Most people have been going on the assumption that a cam should be placed around 5-60% open. Now what you're suggesting is using the green cam 92.7% open.
Post edited at 20:21
In reply to FreshSlate:
Sigh as I've mentioned god knows how many times the choice of having a subset of a set of cams is some what arbitrary. There isn't really a right answer.
However dragons and camalots don't really suffer from being overcammed as badly as more traditional cams and can be placed fully retracted (although they do loose some strength so I hear).
Why do you think a cam retracted 3mm would not hold a fall, as long a the rock doesn't crumble the mechanics of the cam work exactly the same as a more retracted cam. The main disadvantages are that if it moves at all the lobes will likely not be in a good position and the springs will not be as strong (so it's more likely to move), that's why I suggested in this rare case to extend it so it won't move. Anyway some smaller cams only have an expansion range of 3mm and its well know larger cams can be safely placed nearly tipped out (see the crack school vids)
Sure and rules are made for breaking IMO, some gear is better than no gear.
Anyway as mentioned cracks are are more often than not, not completely uniform so you will generally find either a wider bit to get the larger cam in or a smaller bit to get the smaller cam in.
I hope you have a nice rest of the evening
Stevo
Sigh as I've mentioned god knows how many times the choice of having a subset of a set of cams is some what arbitrary. There isn't really a right answer.
However dragons and camalots don't really suffer from being overcammed as badly as more traditional cams and can be placed fully retracted (although they do loose some strength so I hear).
Why do you think a cam retracted 3mm would not hold a fall, as long a the rock doesn't crumble the mechanics of the cam work exactly the same as a more retracted cam. The main disadvantages are that if it moves at all the lobes will likely not be in a good position and the springs will not be as strong (so it's more likely to move), that's why I suggested in this rare case to extend it so it won't move. Anyway some smaller cams only have an expansion range of 3mm and its well know larger cams can be safely placed nearly tipped out (see the crack school vids)
> Most people have been going on the assumption that a cam should be placed around 5-60% open. Now what you're suggesting is using the green cam 92.7% open.
Sure and rules are made for breaking IMO, some gear is better than no gear.
Anyway as mentioned cracks are are more often than not, not completely uniform so you will generally find either a wider bit to get the larger cam in or a smaller bit to get the smaller cam in.
I hope you have a nice rest of the evening
Stevo
Post edited at 20:28
In reply to CurlyStevo:
> Sigh as I've mentioned god knows how many times the choice of having a subset of a set of cams is some what arbitrary. There isn't really a right answer.
I'm pretty sure the O.P has made his mind on that by now anyway.> However dragons and camalots don't really suffer from being overcammed as badly as more traditional cams and can be placed fully retracted (although they do loose some strength so I hear).
I've already addressed the former, you can still get cams stuck, you will know as you have done before. As to the latter, you're talking about a passive placement, not an active placement. If you try to place a cam almost or fully tipped out in a parallel sided crack it will fail.> Why do you think a cam retracted 3mm would not hold a fall, as long a the rock doesn't crumble the mechanics of the cam work exactly the same as a more retracted cam. The main disadvantages are that if it moves at all the lobes will likely not be in a good position and the springs will not be as strong (so it's more likely to move), that's why I suggested in this rare case to extend it so it won't move.
Well, I've sent a email to DMM, perhaps they will clarify and have a stab at the 'usable' range of the dragon cams. So lets see what verdict they come up with, perhaps it will be more useful than cams wedged into place with guidebooks and wardrobes.> Sure and rules are made for breaking IMO, some gear is better than no gear.
Gear that will definitely rip is equal to no gear. However, taking the right size cam up with you that will hold...> Anyway as mentioned cracks are are more often than not, not completely uniform so you will generally find either a wider bit to get the larger cam in or a smaller bit to get the smaller cam in.
Obviously not seen a splitter crack before. Also, not really the point, there are plenty of small pods, short crack features that will only accept one size.Post edited at 20:39
In reply to FreshSlate:
Cams that are open too wide will not definitely rip but thy are more likely to get interefered by the role jiggleing. I never said the placement I pictured was ideal. I said it was JUST functional. See here for more info. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IXqk_0N1HgcC&pg=PA108&lpg=PA104&...
In any case this placement you keep discussing is very much an edge case generally the cams I suggested taking do safely span a range of cracks, I'll admit there are a few width cracks in that range that are not quite as well protected but that's the trade off I was making!
Also that silver cam I pictured only has a range of 10.6mm 3mm represents the cam being 28% closed. Which is acceptable according to this article
"In general when placing cams you should have each side of the cam evenly closed and the cams in the completely closed to 3/4 closed position. The cam will still normally hold well in the completely closed position, but if you push an over-cammed cam in too far then you may well have trouble getting it out later."
http://www.rockclimbingspain.com/Climbing-Protection-Cams.html
Rock climbing is not about having things exactly right. Trad climbing is about making the most of what you've got, some gear is better than no gear. The design of cams is such that the lobes are on a logarithmic spiral and the holding power is roughly equivalent throughout the range of the cam as long as the cams have just enough clearance to the cam stops / axels to move. The main factors that make an under cammed cam less safe are that if some rock gives it may open out, the springs are weaker so it's more prone to walking and if it does walk it's more prone to the lobes looseing contact with the rock. This is less ideal sure but to say it won't hold is not true. Out of interest have you watched the crack school vid they show placing large cams nearly completely tipped out as being fully safe.
As mentioned camalots and dragons are much less prone to over camming
http://www.backcountryuk.com/black-diamond-camalots-34521-p.asp
"The Camalots tend to walk less and don't become over cammed which makes them far less likely to get trapped"
I reckon by the time you've been placing cams for 15 years it's odds on you loose one too!
Right I'm off climbing now!
Cams that are open too wide will not definitely rip but thy are more likely to get interefered by the role jiggleing. I never said the placement I pictured was ideal. I said it was JUST functional. See here for more info. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IXqk_0N1HgcC&pg=PA108&lpg=PA104&...
In any case this placement you keep discussing is very much an edge case generally the cams I suggested taking do safely span a range of cracks, I'll admit there are a few width cracks in that range that are not quite as well protected but that's the trade off I was making!
Also that silver cam I pictured only has a range of 10.6mm 3mm represents the cam being 28% closed. Which is acceptable according to this article
"In general when placing cams you should have each side of the cam evenly closed and the cams in the completely closed to 3/4 closed position. The cam will still normally hold well in the completely closed position, but if you push an over-cammed cam in too far then you may well have trouble getting it out later."
http://www.rockclimbingspain.com/Climbing-Protection-Cams.html
Rock climbing is not about having things exactly right. Trad climbing is about making the most of what you've got, some gear is better than no gear. The design of cams is such that the lobes are on a logarithmic spiral and the holding power is roughly equivalent throughout the range of the cam as long as the cams have just enough clearance to the cam stops / axels to move. The main factors that make an under cammed cam less safe are that if some rock gives it may open out, the springs are weaker so it's more prone to walking and if it does walk it's more prone to the lobes looseing contact with the rock. This is less ideal sure but to say it won't hold is not true. Out of interest have you watched the crack school vid they show placing large cams nearly completely tipped out as being fully safe.
As mentioned camalots and dragons are much less prone to over camming
http://www.backcountryuk.com/black-diamond-camalots-34521-p.asp
"The Camalots tend to walk less and don't become over cammed which makes them far less likely to get trapped"
I reckon by the time you've been placing cams for 15 years it's odds on you loose one too!
Right I'm off climbing now!
In reply to CurlyStevo:
That's been an interesting discussion on the cam ranges. I have to say though... the argument for getting cams in adjacent sizes rather than alternate sizes is more persuasive! Though the rack weight would be higher (4-5 cams instead of 3-4) and there will be a lack of cam in one end of the range (probably larger), I think having adjacent sizes would be more useful... especially if there are cracks of similar sizes where you could use two cams on the same width crack, rather than using one cam then finding 5m further up that you have no cam for the job.
Out of interest, other than the reason for the lack of walking (stiffer springs presumably?), is there any other reason why Dragons are less prone to over-camming?
Also, does anyone know whether the Dragons can be used as passive pro? I know the Daemons can but I find nothing on the Dragons. Not that I envisage that much (that's what hexes are for!) but its always nice to know these things for that 'what if' scenario.
That's been an interesting discussion on the cam ranges. I have to say though... the argument for getting cams in adjacent sizes rather than alternate sizes is more persuasive! Though the rack weight would be higher (4-5 cams instead of 3-4) and there will be a lack of cam in one end of the range (probably larger), I think having adjacent sizes would be more useful... especially if there are cracks of similar sizes where you could use two cams on the same width crack, rather than using one cam then finding 5m further up that you have no cam for the job.
Out of interest, other than the reason for the lack of walking (stiffer springs presumably?), is there any other reason why Dragons are less prone to over-camming?
Also, does anyone know whether the Dragons can be used as passive pro? I know the Daemons can but I find nothing on the Dragons. Not that I envisage that much (that's what hexes are for!) but its always nice to know these things for that 'what if' scenario.
In reply to crayefish:
Cams with a double axle can be used as passive pro
Cams with a single axle can be used as passive pro if they have cam stops.
Cams with a double axle can be used as passive pro
Cams with a single axle can be used as passive pro if they have cam stops.
In reply to blackreaver:
Yeah I've seen the cam stops on the single axle cams... so all double axle cams can be used as passive pro as they use the other axle in the hole of the lobe to act as a stop?
Yeah I've seen the cam stops on the single axle cams... so all double axle cams can be used as passive pro as they use the other axle in the hole of the lobe to act as a stop?
In reply to CurlyStevo:
The problem is. There is a lot less margin for smaller cams, this 'ideal range' actually changes quite a bit. With massive cams you are fine to place them up to 90% out if you like, but micro cams need to be cammed a lot more. Watch this video, Tom Randall. vimeo.com/40654007
Like I said, there may be a kind of logic of using non-overlapping cams in order to cover more range (for less weight). That's fine. There might be a certain size you won't be able to protect well but hopefully there's other options.
There's lots of 'generally' and 'normally' in that article. The example given is also a 3cu 2.5, which is over double the size of the small silver. There are lots of definitions of micro cams and it's on the cusp for me but you said yourself you'd be replacing your silver with a micro cam. Anyhow, as stated before, big cams can be placed further out in their range, small/micro cams less so.
It's odd how I've referenced the crack school video, to later read that you reference it missing the entire point of what he was saying. He's showing the large cams being tipped out because it's unusual, watch the video again and listen to what he says about 'normal sized friends' let alone getting on for micro cams!
Why am I being linked to a shop? Anyway, being less prone to walk has nothing to do with the minimum angle that a cam can be placed before it gets stuck. Just because a cam is less likely to walk into a crack too small for it doesn't mean it won't get stuck when you force in into a crack too small for it.
> Cams that are open too wide will not definitely rip but thy are more likely to get interefered by the role jiggleing. I never said the placement I pictured was ideal. I said it was JUST functional. See here for more info. http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IXqk_0N1HgcC&pg=PA108&lpg=PA104&...
The problem is. There is a lot less margin for smaller cams, this 'ideal range' actually changes quite a bit. With massive cams you are fine to place them up to 90% out if you like, but micro cams need to be cammed a lot more. Watch this video, Tom Randall. vimeo.com/40654007
> In any case this placement you keep discussing is very much an edge case generally the cams I suggested taking do safely span a range of cracks, I'll admit there are a few width cracks in that range that are not quite as well protected but that's the trade off I was making!
Like I said, there may be a kind of logic of using non-overlapping cams in order to cover more range (for less weight). That's fine. There might be a certain size you won't be able to protect well but hopefully there's other options.
> Also that silver cam I pictured only has a range of 10.6mm 3mm represents the cam being 28% closed. Which is acceptable according to this article
Well, it's always going to be less that 3mm, if you want your other cam to be retrievable. Whatever make your cam.> "In general when placing cams you should have each side of the cam evenly closed and the cams in the completely closed to 3/4 closed position. The cam will still normally hold well in the completely closed position, but if you push an over-cammed cam in too far then you may well have trouble getting it out later."
There's lots of 'generally' and 'normally' in that article. The example given is also a 3cu 2.5, which is over double the size of the small silver. There are lots of definitions of micro cams and it's on the cusp for me but you said yourself you'd be replacing your silver with a micro cam. Anyhow, as stated before, big cams can be placed further out in their range, small/micro cams less so.
> The design of cams is such that the lobes are on a logarithmic spiral and the holding power is roughly equivalent throughout the range of the cam as long as the cams have just enough clearance to the cam stops / axels to move. The main factors that make an under cammed cam less safe are that if some rock gives it may open out, the springs are weaker so it's more prone to walking and if it does walk it's more prone to the lobes looseing contact with the rock. This is less ideal sure but to say it won't hold is not true. Out of interest have you watched the crack school vid they show placing large cams nearly completely tipped out as being fully safe.
It's odd how I've referenced the crack school video, to later read that you reference it missing the entire point of what he was saying. He's showing the large cams being tipped out because it's unusual, watch the video again and listen to what he says about 'normal sized friends' let alone getting on for micro cams!
> As mentioned camalots and dragons are much less prone to over camming
> "The Camalots tend to walk less and don't become over cammed which makes them far less likely to get trapped"
> I reckon by the time you've been placing cams for 15 years it's odds on you loose one too!
Why am I being linked to a shop? Anyway, being less prone to walk has nothing to do with the minimum angle that a cam can be placed before it gets stuck. Just because a cam is less likely to walk into a crack too small for it doesn't mean it won't get stuck when you force in into a crack too small for it.
In reply to crayefish:
Yeah you're right. If you have only alternate sizes, the chances are if you use one of those cams and come across a similar sized crack you'll be stuck. However, with adjacent cams if you place a green, the red/purple is very likely to fit into a roughly similar crack. Red and Green are commonly the most useful sizes anyway so makes sense to have both. On average I carry 1-4 most often.
0 and 00 tend to come up too as they don't weigh a lot but I did not find them crucial at the start plus lot of midsized nuts cover that range.
With the dragons, it's mainly the stiffer springs, but having a double axle means they have a bit more range. Be careful at first, and definitely don't try to shove them in fully cammed. Make sure that you'll be able to retract the cams slightly for removal.
Yes bingo, double axle cams have a built in stop where as single axle cams have started adding them on. Usually the passive strength of cam stops is slightly lower that the active strength of the cam. I.E 14kn active 10kn passive (as with the demons and the 4cus). However, dragons are good to 14kn either way.
> That's been an interesting discussion on the cam ranges. I have to say though... the argument for getting cams in adjacent sizes rather than alternate sizes is more persuasive! Though the rack weight would be higher (4-5 cams instead of 3-4) and there will be a lack of cam in one end of the range (probably larger), I think having adjacent sizes would be more useful... especially if there are cracks of similar sizes where you could use two cams on the same width crack, rather than using one cam then finding 5m further up that you have no cam for the job.
Yeah you're right. If you have only alternate sizes, the chances are if you use one of those cams and come across a similar sized crack you'll be stuck. However, with adjacent cams if you place a green, the red/purple is very likely to fit into a roughly similar crack. Red and Green are commonly the most useful sizes anyway so makes sense to have both. On average I carry 1-4 most often.
0 and 00 tend to come up too as they don't weigh a lot but I did not find them crucial at the start plus lot of midsized nuts cover that range.
> Out of interest, other than the reason for the lack of walking (stiffer springs presumably?), is there any other reason why Dragons are less prone to over-camming?
With the dragons, it's mainly the stiffer springs, but having a double axle means they have a bit more range. Be careful at first, and definitely don't try to shove them in fully cammed. Make sure that you'll be able to retract the cams slightly for removal.
> Also, does anyone know whether the Dragons can be used as passive pro? I know the Daemons can but I find nothing on the Dragons. Not that I envisage that much (that's what hexes are for!) but its always nice to know these things for that 'what if' scenario.
> Yeah I've seen the cam stops on the single axle cams... so all double axle cams can be used as passive pro as they use the other axle in the hole of the lobe to act as a stop?
Yes bingo, double axle cams have a built in stop where as single axle cams have started adding them on. Usually the passive strength of cam stops is slightly lower that the active strength of the cam. I.E 14kn active 10kn passive (as with the demons and the 4cus). However, dragons are good to 14kn either way.
Post edited at 15:55
My questions to DMM:
1) Are the stated max/minimum width the usable range, or width of a cam fully contracted and fully opened?
2) If they are not the usable range what do you think the usable range would look like?
3) Do you think that both a gold and a green cam could both acceptably protect the same crack? They overlap by 3mm on the stated specs, would they overlap in practice?
4) Do you think that both a silver and green cam could both acceptably protect the same crack?
From DMM:
You've asked some very specific questions so I'm going to start with a caveat:
The dragon cam has the same camming angle right through its range, however not all rock and cracks are the same so on soft rock (slate) you would be sensible to make sure the cam was placed more in the middle of its range to allow for this, if at all possible it is sensible to always go for the middle of the cams range.
1. Fully contracted and fully open.
2. If you worked around taking off 2mm from the fully contracted and 4 to 6mm from fully open spec that would be a more usable range.
3. Yes they do but only by a very small operating window a red size 3 would be the sensible choice.
4. By silver I guess you mean size 0 and yes but only by a very small operating window a purple size 1 would be more sensible.
I guess what you're asking is could you get away with every other size and the short answer is no,
hope this helps,
best regards,
Nick
1) Are the stated max/minimum width the usable range, or width of a cam fully contracted and fully opened?
2) If they are not the usable range what do you think the usable range would look like?
3) Do you think that both a gold and a green cam could both acceptably protect the same crack? They overlap by 3mm on the stated specs, would they overlap in practice?
4) Do you think that both a silver and green cam could both acceptably protect the same crack?
From DMM:
You've asked some very specific questions so I'm going to start with a caveat:
The dragon cam has the same camming angle right through its range, however not all rock and cracks are the same so on soft rock (slate) you would be sensible to make sure the cam was placed more in the middle of its range to allow for this, if at all possible it is sensible to always go for the middle of the cams range.
1. Fully contracted and fully open.
2. If you worked around taking off 2mm from the fully contracted and 4 to 6mm from fully open spec that would be a more usable range.
3. Yes they do but only by a very small operating window a red size 3 would be the sensible choice.
4. By silver I guess you mean size 0 and yes but only by a very small operating window a purple size 1 would be more sensible.
I guess what you're asking is could you get away with every other size and the short answer is no,
hope this helps,
best regards,
Nick
In reply to FreshSlate:
So I'm sure you think that proves your point whilst I think it proves mine and disproves several of your points.
What I said was
"overlap of the green and silver dragon cams (and indeed between the green and gold) does just allow them to be placed in the same width cracks, although I will concede neither placement is ideal but as mentioned the natural variation you get in most cracks will improve both these placements and they are both just functional."
Nick confirms this in points 3 & 4
"
3. Yes they do but only by a very small operating window a red size 3 would be the sensible choice.
4. By silver I guess you mean size 0 and yes but only by a very small operating window a purple size 1 would be more sensible."
I said
"Neither approach is really correct, ideally he needs a full set. I would also say neither approach would really mean he can grade push or climb routes that are likely to be fairly cam heavy either. My approach at least means if he is climbing routes he is generally happy to protect passively if he gets a nasty surprise and finds an essential cam placement he is more likely to have one that fits"
Nick agrees saying that you can't get away with any subset of the dragon cams - "I guess what you're asking is could you get away with every other size and the short answer is no,"
I'm pretty sure if you asked nick could the OP get away with just green red and gold dragons he would also say no (if he plans to climb routes that generally require active protection) which was my point.
I'm hopeing now atleast that you don't think that a silver cam in the same placement a green one just fits in to "will definitely rip" (same goes for green to gold)
There is no correct answer to which 3 dragons you should buy although some options are obviously more likely to work than others. Its partially a subjective decision and partially based on the type of routes you climb and what gear they are likely to take and how much you are grade pushing etc etc etc
I don't really care to continue this discussion any further tbh I'm sure you will want to argue these points to death but I have no more interest in this discussion.
So I'm sure you think that proves your point whilst I think it proves mine and disproves several of your points.
What I said was
"overlap of the green and silver dragon cams (and indeed between the green and gold) does just allow them to be placed in the same width cracks, although I will concede neither placement is ideal but as mentioned the natural variation you get in most cracks will improve both these placements and they are both just functional."
Nick confirms this in points 3 & 4
"
3. Yes they do but only by a very small operating window a red size 3 would be the sensible choice.
4. By silver I guess you mean size 0 and yes but only by a very small operating window a purple size 1 would be more sensible."
I said
"Neither approach is really correct, ideally he needs a full set. I would also say neither approach would really mean he can grade push or climb routes that are likely to be fairly cam heavy either. My approach at least means if he is climbing routes he is generally happy to protect passively if he gets a nasty surprise and finds an essential cam placement he is more likely to have one that fits"
Nick agrees saying that you can't get away with any subset of the dragon cams - "I guess what you're asking is could you get away with every other size and the short answer is no,"
I'm pretty sure if you asked nick could the OP get away with just green red and gold dragons he would also say no (if he plans to climb routes that generally require active protection) which was my point.
I'm hopeing now atleast that you don't think that a silver cam in the same placement a green one just fits in to "will definitely rip" (same goes for green to gold)
There is no correct answer to which 3 dragons you should buy although some options are obviously more likely to work than others. Its partially a subjective decision and partially based on the type of routes you climb and what gear they are likely to take and how much you are grade pushing etc etc etc
I don't really care to continue this discussion any further tbh I'm sure you will want to argue these points to death but I have no more interest in this discussion.
Post edited at 17:17
In reply to FreshSlate:
Thanks for asking those questions. Some interesting and useful answers there! Cheers
Thanks for asking those questions. Some interesting and useful answers there! Cheers
In reply to CurlyStevo:
As far as I'm concerned, the only place where we differ is:
You think a placement is 'less than ideal'.
I think a placement is 'less than less than ideal'.
That's it. Would I cram my £50 cam into a crack to save my legs? Damn right I would. But I'd rather not be put in that position in the first place. You have presented the other side well, and I'm sure between us the O.P has been well served.
> So I'm sure you think that proves your point whilst I think it proves mine and disproves several of your points.
Not too bothered about whether it proves my point or not. I think he was trying to give a good idea off the top of his head. I think it will be of more use to the O.P than someone like yourself. > "overlap of the green and silver dragon cams (and indeed between the green and gold) does just allow them to be placed in the same width cracks, although I will concede neither placement is ideal but as mentioned the natural variation you get in most cracks will improve both these placements and they are both just functional."
> Nick confirms this in points 3 & 4
> "
> 3. Yes they do but only by a very small operating window a red size 3 would be the sensible choice.
> 4. By silver I guess you mean size 0 and yes but only by a very small operating window a purple size 1 would be more sensible."
I'm not quite sure what he means by 'operating window', but it's very possible he's referring to the fact that they technically overlap by 3mm. He seems to be using two terms 'usable range' and 'operating window' which is consistent with this view. As in indicated by his earlier *rough* (and I think with a certain size in mind too) estimations of how much a cam should be retracted, 'operating window' and 'usable range' are two different things. > I'm pretty sure if you asked nick could the OP get away with just green red and gold dragons he would also say no (if he plans to climb routes that generally require active protection) which was my point.
I don't think Nick would say that. So let's not put words into his mouth. The Green, red and gold cam's are perfectly fine for covering a certain spectrum of ranges. Just as you don't need to add the smallest wild country zero to your rack or a friend number 6, you don't necessary need either of the DMM silver cams. However, if you expect 0, 2, 4 to adequately cover all the sizes in between you will be disappointed. > I'm hopeing now atleast that you don't think that a silver cam in the same placement a green one just fits in to "will definitely rip" (same goes for green to gold)
Perhaps a Silver may work in extremely hard rock in a crack size that a green would get stuck in. But that's a lot of ifs, and 50 quid down the toliet. This is what I have always said. In my opinion, any crack that the green is operatable in, the silver would be too tipped out.> There is no correct answer to which 3 dragons you should buy although some options are obviously more likely to work than others. Its partially a subjective decision and partially based on the type of routes you climb and what gear they are likely to take and how much you are grade pushing etc etc etc
I think the weight is massively on the 'buy sequentially' side, though there are arguements both ways. Whether to buy 1,2,3 or 2,3,4 etc. that's the harder question.> I don't really care to continue this discussion any further tbh I'm sure you will want to argue these points to death but I have no more interest in this discussion.
Look, I didn't post this to annoy you. It's purely for the O.P. and others, hence why I didn't reply directly to you. People have heard both our opinions and I thought Nick's opinion was also worth something.As far as I'm concerned, the only place where we differ is:
You think a placement is 'less than ideal'.
I think a placement is 'less than less than ideal'.
That's it. Would I cram my £50 cam into a crack to save my legs? Damn right I would. But I'd rather not be put in that position in the first place. You have presented the other side well, and I'm sure between us the O.P has been well served.
Post edited at 22:26
In reply to FreshSlate:
I wasn't playing devils advocate. I've owned tonnes of cams in total about 7 different models placed over many years.
Let's just agree to disagree.
Stevo
I wasn't playing devils advocate. I've owned tonnes of cams in total about 7 different models placed over many years.
Let's just agree to disagree.
Stevo
Post edited at 22:32
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Agreed. Yeah I know you believe what you are saying, edited slightly.
Not a problem
Agreed. Yeah I know you believe what you are saying, edited slightly.
> Thanks for asking those questions. Some interesting and useful answers there! Cheers
Not a problem
Post edited at 22:29
In reply to FreshSlate:
I reckon we both agree 3 or 4 cams ain't going to cut it in the long run ( or even the short term once the op starts buying some and given that he can sport climb F7a) anyways
I reckon we both agree 3 or 4 cams ain't going to cut it in the long run ( or even the short term once the op starts buying some and given that he can sport climb F7a) anyways
Post edited at 22:35
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Yeah, with him owning some hexes and knowing how to use them he will hold out longer than most. But the lore of the shiny combined with pumpier more cam happy routes will mean that his cam set will gradually expand.
I just bought the two smallest x4's myself. 50 quid each, couldn't resist .
Yeah, with him owning some hexes and knowing how to use them he will hold out longer than most. But the lore of the shiny combined with pumpier more cam happy routes will mean that his cam set will gradually expand.
I just bought the two smallest x4's myself. 50 quid each, couldn't resist .
In reply to FreshSlate:
I had a proper look at these last Friday like them a lot. The axel looks to be a very clever design plus nice and narrow. I'm sure the price will come down in another year or two (as did the C3's)
I had a proper look at these last Friday like them a lot. The axel looks to be a very clever design plus nice and narrow. I'm sure the price will come down in another year or two (as did the C3's)
Post edited at 22:48
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Yeah, I've seen them in person and was quite impressed. I think the average price on the street is around 55/58 at the moment. Not too many have them at the full 65, which imo is too much, but can't see them going for too much lower than the £50 at two easily googlable shops. Missed out last time they had them. Dollar is quite low at the moment.
> I had a proper look at these last Friday like them a lot. The axel looks to be a very clever design plus nice and narrow. I'm sure the price will come down in another year or two (as did the C3's)
Yeah, I've seen them in person and was quite impressed. I think the average price on the street is around 55/58 at the moment. Not too many have them at the full 65, which imo is too much, but can't see them going for too much lower than the £50 at two easily googlable shops. Missed out last time they had them. Dollar is quite low at the moment.
Post edited at 22:57
In reply to FreshSlate:
Given zeros and master cams are under 40 and there is quite a bit of competition with the new aliens (that will come down further) etc plus bd have c3s that can already be bought under 50 they could come down quite a lot In a year or two. I hope dmm do make some micros, I like their kit.
I already have enough cams really anyways so to upgrade it will have to be good and the right price.... Since I own dragons Id quite like something with a doubled up sling and a narrow head.
Given zeros and master cams are under 40 and there is quite a bit of competition with the new aliens (that will come down further) etc plus bd have c3s that can already be bought under 50 they could come down quite a lot In a year or two. I hope dmm do make some micros, I like their kit.
I already have enough cams really anyways so to upgrade it will have to be good and the right price.... Since I own dragons Id quite like something with a doubled up sling and a narrow head.
Post edited at 23:13
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Hopefully, the only thing is with them being from America there's always a premium on black diamond gear. C4's are more expensive here but Dragons are more expensive and exotic in America. That and they generally place themselves more at that range of the market too, they don't feel the need to really undercut anyone. However, they need to stay in touch, which £65 is not!
Whether someone bags them for sub 55 depends on how much the retailer is willing to reduce their cut. I imagine c3's will stay around and be what the 4cu's/3cu's are to dragons, the cheaper cut-price version. I think you're right about the competition, Totem basics (A.K.A the 'new aliens') are out now, thus the quite hefty 23% reduction on the RRP of the x4's at some places. Anything less than 45-50 would surely be a loss leading bargain!
I'm definitely interested in what DMM have to offer in this increasingly crowded micro-cam market. I really hope they're on par, and will be considering them for doubles/replacements if ever the need arises.
> Given zeros and master cams are under 40 and there is quite a bit of competition with the new aliens (that will come down further) etc plus bd have c3s that can already be bought under 50 they could come down quite a lot In a year or two. I hope dmm do make some micros, I like their kit.
> I already have enough cams really anyways so to upgrade it will have to be good and the right price.... Since I own dragons Id quite like something with a doubled up sling and a narrow head.
Hopefully, the only thing is with them being from America there's always a premium on black diamond gear. C4's are more expensive here but Dragons are more expensive and exotic in America. That and they generally place themselves more at that range of the market too, they don't feel the need to really undercut anyone. However, they need to stay in touch, which £65 is not!
Whether someone bags them for sub 55 depends on how much the retailer is willing to reduce their cut. I imagine c3's will stay around and be what the 4cu's/3cu's are to dragons, the cheaper cut-price version. I think you're right about the competition, Totem basics (A.K.A the 'new aliens') are out now, thus the quite hefty 23% reduction on the RRP of the x4's at some places. Anything less than 45-50 would surely be a loss leading bargain!
I'm definitely interested in what DMM have to offer in this increasingly crowded micro-cam market. I really hope they're on par, and will be considering them for doubles/replacements if ever the need arises.
Post edited at 00:06
In reply to crayefish:
Hexes are so good they even hold in sand:
http://postimg.org/image/djxzj37ex/db667af5/
Hexes are so good they even hold in sand:
http://postimg.org/image/djxzj37ex/db667af5/
In reply to CurlyStevo:
It was indoors so not quite the same as a proper sport climb But an off-width crack so pretty fun if not a little painful. lol
> given that he can sport climb F7a) anyways
It was indoors so not quite the same as a proper sport climb But an off-width crack so pretty fun if not a little painful. lol
In reply to CurlyStevo:
Yeah I do love their doubled sling and don't see how other manufacturers could not do it.
Since owning torque nuts, I can't bare to use hexcentrics etc simply because of the sling (though the extra camming range is useful too).
> I already have enough cams really anyways so to upgrade it will have to be good and the right price.... Since I own dragons Id quite like something with a doubled up sling and a narrow head.
Yeah I do love their doubled sling and don't see how other manufacturers could not do it.
Since owning torque nuts, I can't bare to use hexcentrics etc simply because of the sling (though the extra camming range is useful too).
In reply to crayefish:
Have they updated the torque nuts? Mine are bit too hard to extend I think they may have widened the holes?
Have they updated the torque nuts? Mine are bit too hard to extend I think they may have widened the holes?
In reply to CurlyStevo:
I think the original ones (pre-production or very first run?) had smaller holes... I vaguely recall a review when they first released saying they would be widened. How soon did you buy them?
Mine aren't 'easy' to extend but not too stiff either. My current rack comprises a set of rockcentrics (5, 7-9) and a set of torque nuts but the former almost always get left at home unless I know I'll need two of a certain size.
> Have they updated the torque nuts? Mine are bit too hard to extend I think they may have widened the holes?
I think the original ones (pre-production or very first run?) had smaller holes... I vaguely recall a review when they first released saying they would be widened. How soon did you buy them?
Mine aren't 'easy' to extend but not too stiff either. My current rack comprises a set of rockcentrics (5, 7-9) and a set of torque nuts but the former almost always get left at home unless I know I'll need two of a certain size.
In reply to crayefish:
Mine are about 3 years old. They have got slightly harder to extend as the slings have worn a little.
The holes could defo do with being a little bigger.
Mine are about 3 years old. They have got slightly harder to extend as the slings have worn a little.
The holes could defo do with being a little bigger.
Post edited at 18:12
In reply to CurlyStevo:
The UKC review in 2009 said:
'DMM have recently slightly widened the holes through which the tape passes, to make it easier to pull the sling from double to single. The nuts I received had the earlier narrower holes and I can't say I've found it that hard to pull the loop through, but now it should be even easier to deploy the big loop.'
So I guess they were changed around that time... so yours should be the wider hole version.
Bust out the lube?
The UKC review in 2009 said:
'DMM have recently slightly widened the holes through which the tape passes, to make it easier to pull the sling from double to single. The nuts I received had the earlier narrower holes and I can't say I've found it that hard to pull the loop through, but now it should be even easier to deploy the big loop.'
So I guess they were changed around that time... so yours should be the wider hole version.
Bust out the lube?
In reply to loose overhang:
Bomber that hex placement.
In reply to russtyg
Erm, I had a friend who had them once... Wasn't massively blown away don't know why. They're light and look well made, and have improved ergonomics on the old friends. They just don't drum up interest to be honest. They're probably a step in the right direction from the old friends but didn't do enough to impress. Decent all rounder but excel at nothing to be really harsh. They are neither the strongest, the lightest, the most expansive nor do they have any unique features. They're obviously good cams, I'm just trying to work out why they've basically been all but ignored by the climbing community to be honest. I don't see anyone climb with them unless they are literally sponsored by Wild country.
Bomber that hex placement.
In reply to russtyg
Erm, I had a friend who had them once... Wasn't massively blown away don't know why. They're light and look well made, and have improved ergonomics on the old friends. They just don't drum up interest to be honest. They're probably a step in the right direction from the old friends but didn't do enough to impress. Decent all rounder but excel at nothing to be really harsh. They are neither the strongest, the lightest, the most expansive nor do they have any unique features. They're obviously good cams, I'm just trying to work out why they've basically been all but ignored by the climbing community to be honest. I don't see anyone climb with them unless they are literally sponsored by Wild country.
Post edited at 21:26
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